Meta Competitive Smash Ruleset Discussion

[Pazx]

I genuinely think we should consider banning Sonic before banning Kong Cyclone.

 

[Scarlet Jile]

Couldn't that first paragraph apply to some characters in the default meta, such as Sonic. Nobody's talking about banning Sonic because he's not fun to play against and watch.

As much as I hate Sonic, I think that's taking it a little too far, haha.

 

[Ghostbone]

We are saying "you're wrong" for trying to pretend that banning SS/LW Palutena somehow doesn't count as banning someone's character, and is anything less than barring them from participating in competition.

Not to be harsh, but just because your main is banned doesn't mean you're not allowed to compete. You can always play another character, it's not unusual for people to have secondaries, why can't you play a default character in customs off tournaments?

I mean I support customs but your arguments are flawed, it's like saying your favourite stage is great cave offensive and by not allowing you to counter-pick it we're barring you from competition. You should just pick stages that are conducive to competition and compete on them. (and I guess people who are anti custom would argue customs lead to degenerate gameplay similar to how banned stages would)

 

[DunnoBro]

HBS's effectiveness requires outplaying the opponent and is not nearly as powerful s people make it sound. Counter Sapling is only overly polarizing to people who are unfamiliar with it.

Overswarm made a great video showing how to beat a lot to. Salt is not something to ban things off of.

Actually hsb has true combo set-ups, and is a free kill off the most miniscule of reads. Getting outplayed once shouldn't invalidate outplaying them ten times.

 

[Sixfortyfive]

I think it's pretty silly that, if push comes to shove, some people actually think the Smash community can't agree on banning literally 2 customs. It's always "all or nothing", which is a very flawed and very biased argument.

I'm pro-customs, but I would rather ban all customs than ban one of them. I value simple, discrete rules. (That's also why I don't have a problem with a "one-custom" ruleset, where the only legal movesets would be 2111, 3111, 1211, etc., as that would eliminate the need for preset voting altogether. But that has its own drawbacks and is beside the point.)

Anyway, there would also be a proliferation of customs johns if you tweaked the rules on a per-custom basis; the stans for every top player would whine about a new "problem" every single time one of them loses to a different character or move, and it would be impossible to figure out where to draw the line.

The Smogon comparison is a little tired, but I literally gave up on that community when I felt like there was this huge undercurrent of effort wasted on figuring out what should and shouldn't be banned instead of just figuring out how to play the game.

 

[John12346]

Hey guys, here's the latest ruleset I have for CEO 2015:

https://docs.google.com/document/d/11X7WE44OaMUL3zUTwdN2Qog-18crGVv-WKaKH3JjWOI/edit

I know this is a little late of a response but you should seriously consider removing the Stage Clause/DSR from the ruleset. 2 bans plus DSR is way too excessive for a stagelist of only 10 stages, effectively. I've seen players including myself forced to choose a stage we really don't want to go to on Game 3 simply because the opponent was able to remove THREE advantageous stages from us(usually it's the combination of FD/Omega, Smashville, and Duck Hunt being stricken all at once that hurts these players). Think about it, aight?

Also, kudos for removing the Suicide Clause, but you should also consider making it clear what happens when the game goes to Sudden Death. It's obvious that we need to respect what the victory screen says when it comes up, regardless of suicide moves, but we still need to address what happens when both players actually DO die at the same time. Initiator wins? Loses? 1 stock/3 minute rematch? Personally I would say the final option is best, but it's up to you. But you should definitely make sure it's addressed, y'feel me?

 

[Sixfortyfive]

Also, kudos for removing the Suicide Clause, but you should also consider making it clear what happens when the game goes to Sudden Death.

Lowest percent wins, like Sudden Death in all other circumstances.

 

[Zelder]

Couldn't that first paragraph apply to some characters in the default meta, such as Sonic. Nobody's talking about banning Sonic because he's not fun to play against and watch.

Clearly you haven't read the competitive smash impressions thread, haha.

 

[DunnoBro]

I'm pro-customs, but I would rather ban all customs than ban one of them. I value simple, discrete rules.

It'd be just as simple for the average player, the complexity would only emerge behind the scenes during set creation.

Anywho, after observing PM dev's philosophy in regards to balance, and trying to pinpoint exactly what makes certain customs so bad, I've come to this criteria for determining bans:

DOSP: Demanding One-Sided Perfection

I.e Any move that in order for it to have a healthy risk/reward ratio, consistently demands 11-15 frames of reaction time be utilized for it to have a proper risk/reward ratio is grounds for a ban unless otherwise justified. (The soonest humans can react)

This applies to Kong Cyclone, HSB/Stun Jolt, Pre-patch villager, and hammer spindash. And is why certain changes like making PM Sheik's backthrow back to melee properties. (so you don't need perfect reaction time for every grab to avoid possible 0-deaths)

It also applies to quick attack, default spindash, trick/zigzag shot, and needles. But since we can see these characters were designed around those moves, and given drawbacks elsewhere in their character design, it can be determined these moves are justified.

Any input would be greatly appreciated.

 

[deepseadiva]

I would like to point out that since banning customs is usually done to "better control and balance the metagame" than having customs on is STILL smarter, because then we can neuter even default special like Sheiks needles, and have her play with the worst version of those.

In fact we could make all top tiers use their worst specials, and give bottom tier the best specials. Then everything is fair and balanced!!!

 

[DunnoBro]

I think banning any default specials is unneeded. They definitely were considered for balance much more extensively than customs, even if they nerfed all the worst customs after EVO this would be true. It would also alienate wayyyy too many players.

Sheik is also much less dominant in customs. Default sheik definitely loses to custom duck hunt. Default Needles are worthless in that MU. Superior kill options overall and sheik's mediocre disadvantaged state makes the fact she can't kill a much more glaring weakness.

 

[Pazx]

Keeping a certain custom from being in any of the OCMP sets is neat and all but it still has to be announced as "banned" by each and every TO for every single tournament else we can expect people to create better custom sets on 3DSes and bring those in.

I think getting a consensus on banning or not banning certain moves will prove impossible but it's something I'd be happy to try.

 

[DunnoBro]

Keeping a certain custom from being in any of the OCMP sets is neat and all but it still has to be announced as "banned" by each and every TO for every single tournament else we can expect people to create better custom sets on 3DSes and bring those in.

I think getting a consensus on banning or not banning certain moves will prove impossible but it's something I'd be happy to try.

In general TOs tend to use set lists and not allow personal uploading. If they allow personal uploading and still want certain sets banned, they can. That won't be the problem of the set creators, regardless.

A large consensus is also not needed. The set-makers need only be reputable enough for the set to be circulated, and for them personally to agree about bans under the DOSP criteria.

A good example of DOSP discussion would be Kong Cyclone. While it does demand DOSP, it's obvious that it directly solves some issues of DKs yet still leaves enough that he as a character is beatable. Very similarly to spindash.

Ultimately however, I think it should be banned on the grounds of how it is in doubles. The reason he's beatable in 1v1 is that the act of platform canceling mean if he fails to hit, he generally puts himself into an exploitable position. He also has a poor neutral game. In teams, you generally don't have the time to properly platform pressure, the neutral is almost non-existent, and also the fact as soon as it comes out it demands EVERY OTHER PLAYER acknowledge the hell out of it or die.

I think anything that's mostly DOSP in doubles only could be grounds for a ban too. For customs to be a viable standard, they 100% need to ALSO be healthy in the doubles environment with as few doubles-specific restrictions as possible. Otherwise, there's further discouragement to use and explore customs characters, and have big custom events (the national kind that concrete rulesets into the community)

This can apply to power vision, trip sapling, most other borderline/highly controversial customs.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

On an abstract level, I'm okay-ish with the idea of banning specific customs given that they are supported with evidence and sound reasoning. (Evidence is amply covered by tournament footage, yay.) I think such specific bans are rather messy in the first place and would rather just put up with the customs in question but that's me.

My main issue is that I don't have much faith in people's ability to restrain themselves and not petition for the second best group of customs to get banned next, and so forth.

 

[DunnoBro]

My main issue is that I don't have much faith in people's ability to restrain themselves and not petition for the second best group of customs to get banned next, and so forth.

A petition or amount of people who think X should be banned isn't what makes something bannable, it's just the incentive. If we can develop a criteria that represents what most players believe should be bannable, we can prevent any slippery slopes or mob rule. Either things meet the criteria, or they don't.

And regardless, there's a pretty big difference between HSB, Kong Cyclone, and Trip sapling compared to, say... Dropkick, Jumping Inhale, or Super Speed.

 

[thehard]

Not to get off-topic, but is Sapling actually that bad? The real "strength" of Villager ledge-stall relied on EBT, f-air, and his custom Gyroid in that order IMO.

Also, if a specific custom ban-list actually came into fruition, I see no reason why every tournament shouldn't then adopt customs, seeing as how a ban-list kills off the most major criticism of the custom movement ATM.

 

[ぱみゅ]

Also, if a specific custom ban-list actually came into fruition, I see no reason why every tournament shouldn't then adopt customs, seeing as how a ban-list kills off the most major criticism of the custom movement ATM.

TO's generally don't like experimenting, even if it is to get substantial/beneficial long-term results.

 

[DunnoBro]

Not to get off-topic, but is Sapling actually that bad? The real "strength" of Villager ledge-stall relied on EBT, f-air, and his custom Gyroid in that order IMO.

Only "that bad" in doubles. There's no demand of perfect play in 1v1, just a lot of patience and optimal play at worst.

In doubles though, positioning and working around not one, but TWO with way more variables overall definitely demands perfect play.

 

[MajorMajora]

I still don't get this idea that a custom can be broken without making the character broken. Unless we are saying Pikachu is S+ tier with HSB, which would be one thing, but if the move really is so powrful that it severly invalidates the other player's skill, we are banning it because it is too good, and if it doesn't make Pikachu at an entirely new tier level, it is therefore not too powerful because that means it is not too difficult to fight against. Therefore, unless we are saying Pikachu with customs is far too strong (something that is yet to be proven by results), we are saying something inherently contradictory. "HSB does not make pikachu too strong, but it makes pikachu to strong".

 

[DunnoBro]

Unless we are saying Pikachu is S+ tier with HSB

Like I said, being "too good" isn't a healthy criteria for a ban, but even it was, pikachu is definitely S+ tier with HSB. Beyond pre-patch diddy level.

 

[MajorMajora]

Like I said, being "too good" isn't a healthy criteria for a ban, but even it was, pikachu is definitely S+ tier with HSB. Beyond pre-patch diddy level.

I've heard people say similar things about Ryu, funnily enough.

I don't really feel comfortable with the idea of seriously considering banning certain customs when we are, for the most part, at the theory crafting phase. I suppose it's best to have contingency plans, but it almost feels like some of us have excepted we are going to use them, which I think we shouldn't let ourselves do until a problem persists for too long. Maybe if 1 or 2 Pikachu's who aren't ESAM make it into top 8 we may have a problem. May.

Not to mention I do feel like HSB is getting overhyped. I feel like it's not as easy to kill with as it sounds: I've seen in sour spot a lot, even when it's used by ESAM.

 

[DunnoBro]

I've heard people say similar things about Ryu, funnily enough.

I don't really feel comfortable with the idea of seriously considering banning certain customs when we are, for the most part, at the theory crafting phase. I suppose it's best to have contingency plans, but it almost feels like some of us have excepted we are going to use them, which I think we shouldn't let ourselves do until a problem persists for too long. Maybe if 1 or 2 Pikachu's who aren't ESAM make it into top 8 we may have a problem. May.

Not to mention I do feel like HSB is getting overhyped. I feel like it's not as easy to kill with as it sounds: I've seen in sour spot a lot, even when it's used by ESAM.

It's not pre-patch diddy level in terms of ease of use, but the potency and polarization over a specific tactic is there.

It is overhyped in the sense people think it makes the game, or character unbeatable/playable, but it most certainly is not overhyped overall. Also, there aren't many pika players to begin with, even fewer custom tournaments. We have already observed that HSB isn't like kong cyclone or stall villager which can be played around, as it is not an option move... It is a pure punish move, an absolutely ridiculous one.

End of story, you should not be taking stocks at 30% because you went for a safe read, or guaranteed combo off a safe set-up. (ledge grab combos, and stun jolt set-ups)

If HSB isn't bannable, nothing is.

Also, moves are not their characters. If sonic was spindash, he'd be an unbeatable blur of priority and speed. Moves themselves can be issues, often times the character they're on prevent them from being one. It's why objectively superior moves exist on worse characters yet overall the character is lower tier. Imagine ganon's dair on villager, or spindash on sheik(nightmare fuel)

 

[MajorMajora]

You bring some good points, but the extent to which those are polarizing is something we'll have to wait and see. It's my stern philosophy that nothing like this should be outright banned in the theorycrafting/preliminary testing phase, with the exception of things that are absolutely obvious (circle camping on Temple, etc.). Meta's evolve and adapt; patience tends to be a virtue with these things, lest we set an unfortunate precedent and then proceed to shoot ourselves in the legs as time goes on.

Not to mention if this gets nerfed after EVO and we spent all this time making new pikachu sets we're all going to feel really silly. Not too much of a reason but community backlash has effected balance before. So I suppose keep making a big fuss about it after EVO if it is a problem, and maybe Sakurai will take that into account.

Just remember that most decisions humans make seem like they make perfect sense at the time. Assuming we know all the information is one of humanity's most tragic logical fallacies.

 

[DunnoBro]

Oh, I wouldn't have any sets made until after august. (Post EVO, and another patch coming. If they don't patch them then, they never will. I'm optimistic, however)

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

I will say though, that I don't care all that much specifically that the community at large seems too immature to take customs seriously. This is merely a symptom of the broader, underlying competitive immaturity of the community, and proof that Smash as we know it will never be a truly successful e-sport.

I can say with complete certainty that Germany does not have a competitive smash scene. Having been in both the FGC and the Smash community, I can say with certainty that the attitudes at play are about as different as night and day. "Oh look Falcon has an infinite with customs, all customs are uncompetitive, ban plz". "Waaaah windboxes". "Adapt? What the **** is an adapt?" And so on and so forth.

I gave up fighting. It's not worth it. So what if the game is less deep and less balanced? At least I don't have to listen to the hordes of whinging ****heads whining and whining and whining about everything from Kong Cyclone to Dark Fists to ****ing Wuhu ****ing Island. Now I just run the smashlabs standard and tell anyone who doesn't like it to take it up with the guys in charge of that. The problem here is that scrubs are going to ***** and moan and whine like children until they get their way, and people who aren't scrubs will just play the damn game.

 

[DunnoBro]

The paranoia over windboxes is baffling. The only actually GOOD custom windbox moves are kong cyclone, wind punch, and gust cape. (And gust cape is more universally being considered inferior/very matchup specific)

The vast majority of the anti-customs people are irrefutably very ignorant. I won't name names, but a good chunk of players in md/va who dislike customs fail to even have them unlocked or the sets on their wii u. I also got a certain player to believe the default trick shot was zigzag can and "broken" by using the various reverse shot methods.

This is why nintendo doesn't make things geared more towards competitive means. At their core, the vast majority of players are casuals. Even the pot-fillers who attend tournaments.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

I also got a certain player to believe the default trick shot was zigzag can and "broken" by using the various reverse shot methods.

Pardon me while my brain reboots from this piece of news. Surely knowing how a character's default specials operate on a basic level falls under the concept of "matchup knowledge"?

BTW, what did you do once you convinced them Zigzag was default?

 

[DunnoBro]

Pardon me while my brain reboots from this piece of news. Surely knowing how a character's default specials operate on a basic level falls under the concept of "matchup knowledge"?

Yes, and? Casual players hate having lots of matchups to learn.

BTW, what did you do once you convinced them Zigzag was default?

He just saw me get reverse shot into upair in a friendly, similar to how zigzag combos so he thought that was it. I just finished talking about a customs meta so he commented "You think people wanna play this broken ****?" Then he kinda trailed off with an "Oh" when I told him it was default.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Yes, and? Casual players hate having lots of matchups to learn.

I think I'm just suffering a mild sort of disconnect where I can't really fathom the idea of actually competing without knowing what the characters can do. I mean, reading up on all the specials and customs was one of the first things I did once we had actual footage of them. This isn't even full matchup analysis, this is stuff like "Duck Hunt can create a can that he can then bounce around whenever the **** he wants."

 

[Pippin (Peregrin Took)]

Sad times for me because I've become a bit of a customs dork lately. I'll probably still keep the EVO sets on my setup for old times' sake.

Now I just gotta find a tournament near me that will use 2222/3333 miis.

 

[Blobface]

He just saw me get reverse shot into upair in a friendly, similar to how zigzag combos so he thought that was it. I just finished talking about a customs meta so he commented "You think people wanna play this broken ****?" Then he kinda trailed off with an "Oh" when I told him it was default.

I'm not very surprised he didn't know the difference between zigzag and default.

I'm baffled that he thought Zigzag Duck Hunt was broken.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

I think I'm just suffering a mild sort of disconnect where I can't really fathom the idea of actually competing without knowing what the characters can do. I mean, reading up on all the specials and customs was one of the first things I did once we had actual footage of them. This isn't even full matchup analysis, this is stuff like "Duck Hunt can create a can that he can then bounce around whenever the **** he wants."

Welcome to the Smash community, where even top players are disgusting scrubs. Maybe I should check out the competitive community for... Jeez, I dunno, what game has an average uptake age of 5? To try to find people who are a little more competitive.

 

[Zelder]

I'm not very surprised he didn't know the difference between zigzag and default.

I'm baffled that he thought Zigzag Duck Hunt was broken.

It's like the guy in this thread (or maybe it was AmazingAmpharos's thread) who was complaining about Dash Slash Bowser.

Dash Slash. Bowser.

 

[TheAnomaly]

It's like the guy in this thread (or maybe it was AmazingAmpharos's thread) who was complaining about Dash Slash Bowser.

Dash Slash. Bowser.

Dash Slash is actually ridiculously good. Bowser isn't so it's harder to realize how good dash slash actually is. Think of it this way, would dash slash be unbearable on any other character with a crawl? IMO, it probably would. The mobility on that move is just way too good for mixups. Thankfully we don't have to worry about that because only bowser has dash slash and all his moves are snailpace after it(quickest option being a frame 6 jab or up-b).

 

[Zelder]

That's exactly my point. Dash slash is good, but it's attached to Bowser. Kong Cyclone is good, but it's attached to DK. That's kind of the whole point of customs; giving characters who are otherwise unviable/lacking a boost in the arm if they have good customs.

 

[Blobface]

That's exactly my point. Dash slash is good, but it's attached to Bowser. Kong Cyclone is good, but it's attached to DK. That's kind of the whole point of customs; giving characters who are otherwise unviable/lacking a boost in the arm if they have good customs.

I don't really think the point of customs is balance as much as it is, in a way, adding characters to the game. Many custom characters play very differently from their default counterparts. It's just that, in the case of lower tiers, those alternate characters are more viable.

The additional balancing is more or less a side effect.

 

[Dagon97]

I am not sure how many of you have seen this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gX-7hCKpznw but this is a great explanation by @Overswarm about why these customs are not necessarily "broken" or "over powered" however they can all be dealt with rather easily.

@ TheAnomaly sure dash slash give Bowser mix ups and some extra mobility but does that really make it "too good". Lets say only Fox could perfect pivot, if only Fox can perfect pivot does that really make him "too good". No. It would be something that the opponent would need to know how to compensate for ahead of time.

An issue often brought up is that casual players don't like learning match ups. Sure they don't like learning match ups but that doesn't justify something as too good. This is why even the top level of melee is still in Kindergarten compared to things like Starcraft, because people learn how their character can compensate against other characters. How do you thing Salem won Apex 2013? He had to beat numerous presumably broken characters in the hands of world class players to get first place. How? He figured out his match ups and how to beat them, being "broken" or "exploitable" does not mean anything. Learn the match up and adapt.

 

[Sixfortyfive]

I can say with complete certainty that Germany does not have a competitive smash scene. Having been in both the FGC and the Smash community, I can say with certainty that the attitudes at play are about as different as night and day. "Oh look Falcon has an infinite with customs, all customs are uncompetitive, ban plz". "Waaaah windboxes". "Adapt? What the **** is an adapt?" And so on and so forth.

I've said this before, but this is a symptom of the very type of game that Smash Bros is.

When you played Street Fighter in an arcade in the 90s, you were putting money up to play against complete strangers. You had to actually put something on the line in order to do this. If you lost, you were not only out a quarter, but you also had to walk back to the end of the line and wait for your turn again. Your opponents weren't going to be eager to help you learn and cut you any slack, either; they weren't your friends and they were putting something on the line themselves. The game in question was also explicitly designed around head-to-head competition first and foremost. This kind of environment naturally bred certain attitudes. You wanted to find the cheap stuff and use it. You wanted to do everything in your power to win because there was something actually on the line. With rare exceptions, soft-bans on characters or tactics didn't stick because people who put up the money to play were unwilling to cede any tools at their disposal. The players couldn't tweak any gameplay options, and even if they could, the operator menu didn't have much to offer besides round count and cost per credit. You learned how to use--and how to beat--the cheap stuff simply because you had to. Developers had to put at least some effort into making sure that the games weren't actually too broken to severely hurt competition and income. Even after the scenes for these types of games transitioned from arcade to console, the players' attitudes and the developers' design philosophies largely remained the same.

Smash Bros started out as a console game that can be played competitively but has several significant non-competitive trappings. The typical player's first exposure to the game is not in a public setting like an arcade against complete strangers, but a more intimate, private setting between friends at home. It doesn't have an iron-clad default config designed around serious 1v1 play and is a heavily configurable game at its heart. In fact, in order to achieve ideal settings for competitive play, you have to alter the game from its default configuration in at least some capacity. And the unfortunate side effect of being able to pick and choose the rules means that you're going to get at least some percentage of players more interested in lobbying for rules to suit their own biases and tastes than in learning things that they just don't want to learn.

It's actually kind of interesting to read up on the FGC's perspective of Smash Bros in Melee's early days. SSBM wasn't added to the EVO line-up until 2007, but there were fairly serious discussions about adding it to the line-up dating back to at least 2004, and the debates from around that time are illustrative of the differences between the two communities. One of the Cannon brothers (head EVO TOs), for example, said that the most appealing things about the game were (1) unique, elaborate stages, (2) items, and (3) more than two players at once, no doubt because those are some of the core elements of the game that clearly separate Smash from traditional fighters. It's not that surprising that EVO pushed for item play during Brawl's run on their stage when you consider their "default config is sacred" arcade era attitude and their desire to appreciate those elements of Smash that most-clearly separate it from the other games that they're used to playing.

Now, I'm not one to advocate for item play by any means, but I can at least in principle appreciate their attitude of "put everything on the table... unless there's a good reason not to" and the high threshold they set for additional rules and bans on that front. That attitude is why we're getting customs at EVO (which don't have the same drawbacks as items did, for that matter). I'm grateful for that much, even if they get the cold shoulder from the community from that point forward for questionable reasons.

 

[Balgorxz]

most of the people that are against customs say that they are broken but not because they are mad good but because they are annoying in a normal match, camping and projectile spamming is not very efficient against good characters you will probably still win, the thing is that while it allows some characters not only become better but more fun and add really good variety to the game (ganon,palutena,DHD etc) it also adds a lot of lame strats that hurt the game even if they are not efficient people will still use them, what is the point of competitive smash bros if you are not having fun and testing your skills.

In the first months people were against banning some customs but after all the tests we had it's obvious something is lacking in the rules, people exploting customs and changing sets every game kinda spoil the fun of the custom project.
that's why a lot of people who were in favor of them changed their minds, the answer is simple instead of having a huge custom project with a lot of sets that can be changed anytime custom moves should be limited in a way that doesn't spoil the competitive feel, I've seen a good amount of suggestions for that but it's something everyone has to discuss a bit.

personally I think custom sets shouldn't be allowed to be changed during sets, this means a player during a set has access to all the characters in the game and the customized character of his preference, for example (mario 3123) this means everyone knows he will be using 3123 mario or the other standard characters this means he can't play (3122) DK because of this and can't change to other customized sets, this makes custom moves more like a defined main or a trump card instead of just testing moves until you can make your opponent uncomfortable which is something that happens a lot in tournaments, this is just my opinion but I think this would solve a lot of custom moves problems.

 

[ArikadoSD]

So reading CEO's ruleset, it states this:

"-Self-destruct Moves: If a match ends with the successful use of a character’s selfdestruct move, the player that initiated the self destruct move wins the match regardless of what the results screen states. Selfdestruct moves include only Ganondorf’s Side B, King Dedede’s Neutral B, Wario’s Neutral B, Bowser’s Side B and Kirby’s Neutral B."

Would it make sense to also include Sonic, Sheik, ZSS, and Bowser's dairs as self-destruct moves if they spike and both characters die?