Meta Competitive Smash Ruleset Discussion

Ulevo

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You could do it on command in Castle Siege and Delfino in Brawl -- I'd imagine learning the cause in Smash 4 would allow you to do the same thing.
But again, is it probable? I have seen videos of that sort of thing happening on Castle Siege and more commonly Delfino, but I have never had it actually happen in a match before, and I have been playing these games for years. It is highly unlikely I am outlier exception, but rather this **** does not just simply happen on a common basis. It is not really constructive to argue about it. The stuff that happens on Skyloft happens like, every other match with varying severity. I am sure it would decrease with player knowledge, but not to a point where it is going to be reasonably avoidable in high pressure situations where you have to fight a competent opponent. Its really a poor argument for legitimizing Skyloft. You do not hear complaints about these stages because of their 'fall through' problems because if it was an actual common concern they would be banned.
 
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Amazing Ampharos

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But again, is it probable? I have seen videos of that sort of thing happening on Castle Siege and more commonly Delfino, but I have never had it actually happen in a match before, and I have been playing these games for years. It is highly unlikely I am outlier exception, but rather this **** does not just simply happen on a common basis. It is not really constructive to argue about it. The stuff that happens on Skyloft happens like, every other match with varying severity. I am sure it would decrease with player knowledge, but not to a point where it is going to be reasonably avoidable in high pressure situations where you have to fight a competent opponent. Its really a poor argument for legitimizing Skyloft. You do not hear complaints about these stages because of their 'fall through' problems because if it was an actual common concern they would be banned.
Every other match on Skyloft is a drastic exaggeration. I've played hundreds of matches on Skyloft and seen people clip inside of it twice, neither incident causing a KO or even a hit. My sample size is too small to be sure but it has to be less than 1% of matches that have an incident like this and probably less than 0.01% of the time that both an incident occurs and it has a significant gameplay effect if we presume player competence (that is, it happens in a way you can't just jump and be fine which you can almost always do). You're right it's really rare on stages like Delfino, but it's also really rare on Skyloft and in pretty much all cases on all of these stages it is exceedingly rare for it to actually kill a player who is paying attention. If it actually were common, it would be problematic, but luckily, clipping inside of the stage is incredibly rare on all stages in smash 4 including Skyloft.

I feel I should share my experiences on how much of this I've seen in general. I've personally witnesses in 4 clipping through both Castle Siege and Wuhu Island (not the boat glitch) as well as clipping inside of Pokemon Stadium 2 but not through it (I was embedded in the mound on the ground form). The Wuhu clip was actually really interesting since I suspect it's reproducible (but not useful), involved a very well situated grab release as we transitioned to the fountain... I haven't seen clipping through Delfino in this game in person but I did in Brawl (and saw Siege clipping in person several times in Brawl, probably about a dozen times). I haven't seen it in person, but I've seen Halberd clipping videos in 4 and of course the Halberd clip glitch that was tragically reproducible and exploitable in Brawl was well known. Clipping inside Yoshi's Island (Brawl) in smash 3ds was a well known exploitable trick with Pit/Dark Pit (also worked on Distant Planet!), did it myself several times. Heck I had a hilarious match on Brinstar Depths in Melee where a friend of mine clipped through the stage twice in the same game (and several other games with single clips there; that stage was horribly programmed). I fell through Poke Floats a lot of times in that game (and unlike Brawl and 4, if you fall through a stage in Melee, your stock is pretty much gone due to the difference in the engine), have a friend who swears he fell through Final Destination once in Melee but never saw it personally. I'm pretty sure I fell through Stadium 1 once but don't remember if it was Melee or Brawl, definitely know I heard people talk about clipping through Stadium 1 far out of proportion to how much I actually saw it happen. This is also just what I remember today with me being sure there are more clips I've seen personally but that just don't come to mind; clipping through stages to me is something you just expect to see happen from time to time if you're a heavy player of any smash game except maybe 64 (I have never seen a 64 clip or heard of one). I'm actually legitimately really surprised that you've never seen it in person on any stage but Skyloft or that you've seen it especially more on Skyloft than everywhere else; one of us must be a statistical outlier since it sounds like our experiences on stage clipping are completely different.

Come to think of it, it's a kinda interesting question how much people do actually see this stuff. Since all clipping events are so random and rare, we would expect people to have very different experiences so perhaps it's not so strange I've seen lots of stuff in person you haven't or that you've been horribly unlucky with Skyloft.
 
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Piford

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I've clipped through Battlefield in Smash 4 four times, but I have only clipped though skyloft when I was intentionally trying to figure out how to clip through it. I have played hundred of matches on each, and it seems like it should've happened at least a few times. I mean no one was intentionally trying to exploit the clipping, but I don't really think it would work anyways since you know it's coming.
 

T0MMY

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Two new Stages will probably just mean two new Omegas to choose from. There's going to be something "wrong" with every stage by someone - I believe it's not the Stages that are in question but the system that decides Stages. The irony is the community will be too situated with current rules to want to change, so look forward to 3 or 5 Stage Starters and a limited number of "Counterpicks" that don't make sense (why use Delfino but not Skyloft? Why is Halberd sometimes used with no other stage with hazards? etc.).

Ryu looks bork. I'm DL'ing right now to see what he can do.

…Isn't there data for incomplete mew two customs not yet implemented but in the game's code?
Yeah, but what does that mean? Either the moves were scrapped and not coming or they are coming at an unspecified date. What does this ultimately mean to competition? Kind of screws over Mewtwo (and possible future DLC characters) in competition that use the Custom Fighter option and puts the argument about Custom Moves being able to "balance" the game even more in a questionable light (actually unbalances the game to have some Characters without options that the others have).
More importantly is how it shines light on the vocal minority who tried to ban the Mii Fighters because it wasn't "fair" that no other Character could use "customs" and Mii fighters could as a dirty trick to get Customs on - they are eating their words, and as a Mii main I'll pass them the salt for a little more flavor.
 
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MajorMajora

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Two new Stages will probably just mean two new Omegas to choose from. There's going to be something "wrong" with every stage by someone - I believe it's not the Stages that are in question but the system that decides Stages. The irony is the community will be too situated with current rules to want to change, so look forward to 3 or 5 Stage Starters and a limited number of "Counterpicks" that don't make sense (why use Delfino but not Skyloft? Why is Halberd sometimes used with no other stage with hazards? etc.).

Ryu looks bork. I'm DL'ing right now to see what he can do.


Yeah, but what does that mean? Either the moves were scrapped and not coming or they are coming at an unspecified date. What does this ultimately mean to competition? Kind of screws over Mewtwo (and possible future DLC characters) in competition that use the Custom Fighter option and puts the argument about Custom Moves being able to "balance" the game even more in a questionable light (actually unbalances the game to have some Characters without options that the others have).
More importantly is how it shines light on the vocal minority who tried to ban the Mii Fighters because it wasn't "fair" that no other Character could use "customs" and Mii fighters could as a dirty trick to get Customs on - they are eating their words, and as a Mii main I'll pass them the salt for a little more flavor.
Well, people who play those characters aren't any worse off than they were before the DLC was announced. So they are slightly lower in the tier lists? It doesn't negatively impact the game we had set up before, and it doesn't give people fewer options, so I see no reason that it should be any more of a problem than customs were pre-DLC.
 
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StylesX2 just released a video on why Battlefield should be a counterpick with Miiverse being a starter stage, thoughts?
That's gotta be the scrubbiest thing I've seen all week. :glare:

3 starters is too few IMO but you say you're switching to 5 so that's progress at least. Where's Skyloft though?

@ Budget Player Cadet_ Budget Player Cadet_ you're in Germany. Thoughts?
Drop Halberd, add Kongo, consider Kalos and Orbital Gate Assault (yes, you heard right, Kalos is better than PS2 and Halberd). Halberd is just straight-up the worst stage anyone is even considering for legal right now, unless you want to count Yoshi's Island. It's just so bad.
 

dav3yb

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decided to test out a few stages with bowsers side-b, to see if there were any changes to killing yourself with it... so far delfino and smashville still kick you to SD. but i think at least one stage was fixed? i seem to remember either FD or battlefield also kicking to SD, but i cant' get either to do that, only bowser dying first on those.
 

Pazx

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QUOTING MYSELF PLS READ THIS ****

Done some testing. From now on, when discussing Miiverse, keep in mind it has identical blast zones (side and top) and platform heights to Battlefield. I don't have an easy way to test the stage length or distance between platforms though, but it looks similar.

Dreamland allegedly has a lower ceiling (same as FD/SV) but I don't have it so I can't test.
 

ParanoidDrone

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QUOTING MYSELF PLS READ THIS ****
Dream Land's blast zones are indeed slightly smaller. Not much, mind you, I'm talking only single digit % differences. But it's there. Quite a change from Melee in all honesty, but compared to Battlefield it's not a huge deviation.

<shameless plugs>
Dream Land
Suzaku Castle
Miiverse
</shameless plugs>
 
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Ulevo

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QUOTING MYSELF PLS READ THIS ****
The base stage is the same size as battlefield. The size of the platforms are slightly smaller or the same, I do not remember. Their orientation is closer together, specifically the left and right platform is closer to the middle.

Drop Halberd, add Kongo, consider Kalos and Orbital Gate Assault (yes, you heard right, Kalos is better than PS2 and Halberd). Halberd is just straight-up the worst stage anyone is even considering for legal right now, unless you want to count Yoshi's Island. It's just so bad.
Hm.

That's gotta be the scrubbiest thing I've seen all week. :glare:
HM.

 
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Thinkaman

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Little Mac cannot full hop onto Dream Land 64 platforms. Totally different than Battlefield or Miiverse.
 

ParanoidDrone

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Little Mac cannot full hop onto Dream Land 64 platforms. Totally different than Battlefield or Miiverse.
I didn't even think of testing that. Good catch. Normally I'd verify stage claims for myself but a) it's late and b) I trust you to not bull**** us on this.
 
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Pazx

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Little Mac also has a very small range where he can up-smash players standing on the platform. It's tiny and I expect it to happen about as frequently as this.
 

Ulevo

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I think moving forward, all full stage strike talk aside, five stage strike lists should be replacing Lylat with Dreamland.

Dreamland is effectively a different stage from Battlefield. Players have to consider the wind, the placement and height of the platforms are different, the blast zone is lower, and the ledge has a wall as opposed to the sharp cliff. These are all very meaningful differences that make it more than just an Omega Battlefield.

This much more effectively balances out the strike options. Final Destination has large blast zones while Town & City has smaller ones, yet they both provide a relatively flat playing field. Battlefield has large blast zones while Dreamland has smaller ones, yet they provide both a platform oriented experience. And Smashville is the medium.

This also removes the frustration of Lylat Cruise.
 

ParanoidDrone

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My only concern with swapping in Dream Land in a 5 starter list is that it makes such a list heavily favor characters who prefer flat + plat layouts.

It may be a bit early to make decisive predictions but I can't yet imagine any matchup where Dream Land isn't just as good/bad a stage as Battlefield. Dream Land is clearly different enough to be its own stage, unlike Miiverse, so that in itself isn't the issue. It's just that if 2/5 of the starter list is "Battlefield" and "Battlefield with wind" then I'd bet money that it will influence character viability over time one way or another.
 
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Piford

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My only concern with swapping in Dream Land in a 5 starter list is that it makes such a list heavily favor characters who prefer flat + plat layouts.

It may be a bit early to make decisive predictions but I can't yet imagine any matchup where Dream Land isn't just as good/bad a stage as Battlefield. Dream Land is clearly different enough to be its own stage, unlike Miiverse, so that in itself isn't the issue. It's just that if 2/5 of the starter list is "Battlefield" and "Battlefield with wind" then I'd bet money that it will influence character viability over time one way or another.
It's probably just gonna make nearly every match start on Town and City. It's probably would've been better to not have Dreamland and Battlefield both be starters. Although we now have a great stage list for FLSS with 13 stages now that Dreamland is here, but at least it seems that 3 starter list seem to be a thing of the past.
 

Ulevo

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My only concern with swapping in Dream Land in a 5 starter list is that it makes such a list heavily favor characters who prefer flat + plat layouts.

It may be a bit early to make decisive predictions but I can't yet imagine any matchup where Dream Land isn't just as good/bad a stage as Battlefield. Dream Land is clearly different enough to be its own stage, unlike Miiverse, so that in itself isn't the issue. It's just that if 2/5 of the starter list is "Battlefield" and "Battlefield with wind" then I'd bet money that it will influence character viability over time one way or another.
For one, we should not be playing with the stage list to influence character viability. This experiment was tried with in Brawl and it was not very successful. We should be striving for ruleset simplicity and a stage list that promotes diversity without saturation, hence why Omega stages do not stand autonomously.

Secondly, why is having 2/5 stages on the starter list a bad thing? This is a positive in my mind. It counterbalances the presence of the other stages which are flat oriented. Lylat could have done this if it was a static stage.

Thirdly, the fact that Dreamland has a lower ceiling is a big deal. Meta Knight for one would much rather go here than Battlefield, along with any other character that relies on low ceiling kills. But it does not mean that all characters with good platform dynamics will want to choose Dreamland either. Captain Falcon usually does not score vertical kills, and prefers the lip Battlefield offers, so he would much rather go there.
 

ParanoidDrone

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For one, we should not be playing with the stage list to influence character viability. This experiment was tried with in Brawl and it was not very successful. We should be striving for ruleset simplicity and a stage list that promotes diversity without saturation, hence why Omega stages do not stand autonomously.

Secondly, why is having 2/5 stages on the starter list a bad thing? This is a positive in my mind. It counterbalances the presence of the other stages which are flat oriented. Lylat could have done this if it was a static stage.

Thirdly, the fact that Dreamland has a lower ceiling is a big deal. Meta Knight for one would much rather go here than Battlefield, along with any other character that relies on low ceiling kills. But it does not mean that all characters with good platform dynamics will want to choose Dreamland either. Captain Falcon usually does not score vertical kills, and prefers the lip Battlefield offers, so he would much rather go there.
Nitpicking, but Brawl tried banning a bunch of stages in an attempt to curb Meta Knight, which isn't quite the same thing as trying to be careful about picking a subset of stages as starters. (I'd rather strike from the full legal stage list but that's a separate debate.)
 

Spinach Ops™

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I'd say two stocks , six minutes , and no customs is the purest rule-set we can apply to this game . We also have to consider the spectators if we really want our community to grow vastly .
 

Thinkaman

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I'd say two stocks , six minutes , and no customs is the purest rule-set we can apply to this game . We also have to consider the spectators if we really want our community to grow vastly .
I'd say that 2 minute items-on random stage is the purest ruleset we can apply to this game, but simplicity for simplicity's sake is an awful criterion.
 

T0MMY

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I'd say that 2 minute items-on random stage is the purest ruleset we can apply to this game, but simplicity for simplicity's sake is an awful criterion.
I think the "pure" was in context to competitions. From what I gather since most competitions are using 2 stock 6 minutes then a uniformity of that setting should be the standard. Just my translation.
 

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If customs stay and/or characters keep getting buffs so it's worth taking more risks(or just plain more killpower) I can't see the game staying at 2 stocks.

Another thing to note, is that while I have no data to support this theory, I think we should all be able to agree that the game goes by much, much faster offline than on for various reasons. So anyone who thinks 2-stocks are superior should consider if their experience is mostly online, might be somewhat incompatible.
 

Spinach Ops™

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Also , DLC characters don't have customs , so those who main them are at a disadvantage with fewer options . Rekt .
 

DunnoBro

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Also , DLC characters don't have customs , so those who main them are at a disadvantage with fewer options . Rekt .
Before you bring up more crap to support your "pure" theory and claiming you "rekt" anyone, you should probably respond to the post pointing out how ridiculous it is to begin with.
 

T0MMY

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Because saying something is ridiculous is the best logic? :drohmy:

Competitors are to agree on rules they will abide by in a fair competition; number of stock, a time limit (or none),which characters they will choose, the Stage that will be fought upon, and additional rules like Custom Fighters - there's a lot to come to an agreement on. This matter compounds the more who are involved.

Where does a TO end up grading the competitive value when making their decision? This is where the philosophy of Competitive Theory enters which attempts to create arguments, arguments which must be well-criticized, picked apart, and left naked and shameless until the strongest one remains (for however long that will be) until a stronger argument displaces it.

Maybe "purest" argument is rather subjective and not the strongest argument, but this is a competitive discussions board & shouldn't be a place where contemplating offerings are simply ridiculed off-hand - I'd suggest we could be asking for reasoning to back up the pure argument and give it the "treatment" and see how strong it is.
 

DunnoBro

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Maybe "purest" argument is rather subjective and not the strongest argument, but this is a competitive discussions board & shouldn't be a place where contemplating offerings are simply ridiculed off-hand - I'd suggest we could be asking for reasoning to back up the pure argument and give it the "treatment" and see how strong it is.
You mean literally like what I did? I didn't just call it ridiculous, I told him he should refute the accusation instead of blindly asserting it.
 
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MajorMajora

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Well, well, well, the man himself. Pleasure to be acquainted with you for the first time, I suppose.

I have my qualms about customs-off and starters/counterpick, but I suppose I'm not going to be convincing anyone with this post here, so I'll keep it simple:
-Miiverse: In the case that miiverse/battlefield is chosen through striking, there is no set method of choosing whether to use miiverse or battlefield. Who chooses? the ledges and blast zones are mildly different, so some people will prefer a certain stage. I say it's best to treat miiverse the same you would an omega, just for BF, not FD
-Self destruct clause including kirby/dedede is iffy. There may be cases where the initiator dies first, but it isn't clear whether both would die or the target would've survived. Either add something addressing this particular case or remove those 2 characters from the clause.

I could add some things like how I want there to be FLSS, or maybe a 9 stage starter list, and how I want PS2 and Wuhu to be legal, and how customs are the way of the future, but it's too late for those and those are very much more up for debate. What I listed are the only things I saw that might cause logistical problems in the tournament.

(keep in mind I'm no TO and so I may have made a mistake).

Edit: as far as my opinion on it goes, I'm a bit so-so. I'm rather against customs-off and tend not to watch tourneys that turn off customs. However, I really like the stage list, and 5 starters is a good number for striking and the variety in the CP's is good (by no means revolutionary, it's actually rather standard, but I feel the centrist view on this topic still gives amps stage variety, which is awesome and helps separate Smash 4 from the other installments). I like the inclusion of KJ for doubles as well, might be fin to see that pop up. I'm sad there's no Dreamland, but with it just coming out, getting it onto every console is not worth it.
 
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thehard

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The Self-Destruct clause doesn't make sense to me- it's not right to rule against the victory screen, the game intends for only Ganon to win via suicide side-B, so we should honor that. In addition, it can lead to unclear results due to shenanigans in the blast zone.

Just in case it's brought up: although Bowser's side-B leads to either Sudden Death or a loss for Bowser depending on the stage, never does it give Bowser the victory- so we should never grant him one.
 

Spinach Ops™

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Before you bring up more crap to support your "pure" theory and claiming you "rekt" anyone, you should probably respond to the post pointing out how ridiculous it is to begin with.
Kappa Salt . Even CEO's final ruleset (which was thought out by credible players) has determined Sm4sh' best , in its 'purest' form . :colorful:
 

MajorMajora

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@ D1 D1

I noticed you removed the suicide clause. I have no qualms, but it's best to have a note specifically mentioning its absence, otherwise some people might assume it's there and then play accordingly. Best to leave out all ambiguity.
 

T0MMY

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You mean literally like what I did? I didn't just call it ridiculous, I told him he should refute the accusation instead of blindly asserting it.
Yes, like you did, but I wouldn't try emulating the snarky flavor of it as it could create an invitation to return the favor.

Kappa Salt . Even CEO's final ruleset (which was thought out by credible players) has determined Sm4sh' best , in its 'purest' form . :colorful:
As I was saying...

Well, I think this could just be seen as a good opportunity to discuss the obvious dichotomy we have with old guard competitive rules vs a new philosophy of competitive values and how this affects rulesets used in competitions.

@ D1 D1
I noticed you removed the suicide clause. I have no qualms, but it's best to have a note specifically mentioning its absence, otherwise some people might assume it's there and then play accordingly. Best to leave out all ambiguity.
A notice on the site and message broadcasted to attendees would be more appropriate than amending the ruleset to mention a rule that is not being used (rulesets would be too long to list rules not used).
 
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deepseadiva

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Shoutout to the removal of scrub suicide clauses! All Smashers rejoice!!



Lack of customs is still some obvious character favoritism. Stop artificially boosting up characters you prefer to win!!!!!!!!! #legalizepalutena #legalizemiibrawler #legalizepikachu
 

Balgorxz

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what's you opinion on timeout clauses?
something like 3 timeouts in 3 different matches=DQ, sometimes some players make tournaments 1 hour longer by themselves.
winning is important okay, but sometimes it gets ridiculous.
 
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Pazx

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what's you opinion on timeout clauses?
something like 3 timeouts in 3 different matches=DQ, sometimes some players make tournaments 1 hour longer by themselves.
winning is important okay, but sometimes it gets ridiculous.
If your opponent is playing the clock it's not your fault if you guys timeout, this seems like it would punish some people who didn't do anything wrong.

Also, play to win.
 

DunnoBro

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I would say that many timeouts would be cause for concern, but the blame would be better placed on the game than the player.
 

T0MMY

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Shoutout to the removal of scrub suicide clauses! All Smashers rejoice!!
I have to admit, I am a little surprised this very smart choice was made so efficiently.
Reason prevails, although it took about half a decade at least.

Lack of customs is still some obvious character favoritism.
Would have given your post a like except this, as I'm not sure what this is about.
 
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