Meta Competitive Smash Ruleset Discussion

[Overswarm]

I don't know why you'd want to increase the amount of combos in the game anyway. We're already getting two combos = a stock and it's not even been a full year.

 

[Coffee™]

No. Mewtwo not having access to custom moves is no different than a character like Meta Knight having no custom moves worth using.

It's entirely different...

MK has the option to, doesn't matter if you think they aren't usable.

 

[Ulevo]

It's entirely different...

MK has the option to, doesn't matter if you think they aren't usable.

What perceivable difference is there between having no custom moves, and having no usable custom moves? Either way, you are resorting to your vanilla move set.

If this conversation is going in the direction of idiocy I think it is going I would much rather not have it.

 

[Coffee™]

What perceivable difference is there between having no custom moves, and having no usable custom moves? Either way, you are resorting to your vanilla move set.

If this conversation is going in the direction of idiocy I think it is going I would much rather not have it.

Saying that you have "no usable custom moves" is entirely subjective and does not compare to not having the option at all. There will always be swaying opinions on what is useful and what isn't.

 

[Ulevo]

Saying that you have "no usable custom moves" is entirely subjective and does not compare to not having the option at all. There will always be swaying opinions on what is useful and what isn't.

Well the general consensus with the Meta Knight community which is far more informed about the character than anyone else in the general Smash community is that the only usable custom move is High Speed Drill Rush. I personally have not broken down the custom moves to a science to confirm or deny this consensus, but on minimal observation it appears to be correct. And better Meta Knight players will usually ignore High Speed Drill Rush because vanilla Drill Rush is more flexible.

Whether or not they are usable is not even really the crux of the argument here. The point is that these custom moves do not make the character perceivably better in the custom meta. You are essentially using the exact same character, while other characters are entirely transformed in how they function. It might be for different reasons, but Mewtwo and Meta Knight are in the same boat in this regard.

 

[Coffee™]

Well the general consensus with the Meta Knight community which is far more informed about the character than anyone else in the general Smash community is that the only usable custom move is High Speed Drill Rush. I personally have not broken down the custom moves to a science to confirm or deny this consensus, but on minimal observation it appears to be correct. And better Meta Knight players will usually ignore High Speed Drill Rush because vanilla Drill Rush is more flexible.

Whether or not they are usable is not even really the crux of the argument here. The point is that these custom moves do not make the character perceivably better in the custom meta. You are essentially using the exact same character, while other characters are entirely transformed in how they function. It might be for different reasons, but Mewtwo and Meta Knight are in the same boat in this regard.

We can remove Metaknight specifically from the equation, also whether character is perceived to be better or worse as a result of a specific customs. What I'm getting at is that objectively when you look at DLC characters (assuming they never get customs) they are always at a inherent disadvantage in the customs metagame simply because they don't have any. You can make a comparative argument to Miis being forced to use 1111 sets to compete in "vanilla".

It doesn't seem like much of an issue now as there is only Mewtwo, but say we get 10-20 DLC characters (random numbers) it would be a lot more glaring of an issue.

 

[MajorMajora]

Okay, so yeah it sucks that M2 has no customs, but it's no reason to ban customs. That wasn't the case before he was brought in, M2 players are no worse off having a custom less M2 than no M2, so I hardly see how the addition of him is unfair and warrants a change in rules.

Better luck next time to M2 mains I suppose. Hope it gets patched.

Oh, and you can make arguments that zelda has an inherent disadvantage for more reasons than just customs. We're not bending the rules to help her out.

 

[DunnoBro]

It should be noted that "general consensus" on customs being bad should be considered very open to change.

Hammer/Burning Spindash(or like half of sonic's customs according to 6WX), PKT2, Extreme Judge, Rocketbarrel Attack, Pisces, and probably other customs were originally considered bad and some now have/are even being considered OP.

 

[Overswarm]

It should be noted that "general consensus" on customs being bad should be considered very open to change.

Hammer/Burning Spindash(or like half of sonic's customs according to 6WX), PKT2, Extreme Judge, Rocketbarrel Attack, Pisces, and probably other customs were originally considered bad and some now have/are even being considered OP.

What I've found is most of the "bad" characters that can't really go toe-to-toe with the top tiers are min-maxing. Little Mac's best set is 2331, without question, because if he gets off stage he dies anyway. That set gives him the possibility of new kill options with up+b OoS, side-bing them into the ground gives him combo damage options, etc.

But two or three months ago, it was all about "how can little mac get back to the stage". Now they know it doesn't happen.

 

[webbedspace]

Random question: I was just checking the CEO ruleset and it seems to say that allowed Mii movesets are 1111, 2222 and "etc." (implied to be 3333). Is it really the case that it's deviating from Apex, or is it a misprint? (Significant since Brawler xx22 contains Helicopter Kick + Feint Jump)

 

[Christian Anderson]

U-tilts: The Game.

More like up tilt ,down air, up air, to spike the game. (At least as Mario)

I don't know why you'd want to increase the amount of combos in the game anyway. We're already getting two combos = a stock and it's not even been a full year.

Mostly to alive ate the claim that smash 4 has no "real" combos.

 

[T0MMY]

Maybe not in your eyes, but in other peoples they obviously were. even Apex this year had special stage selecting procedures to allow certain stages being double banned in a Meta Knight was used, something many tournaments have done.

Apex does not set the standard for rules (thank goodness) - as for the "many" others: please reference.
Keep in mind, what I was posting was mostly regarding what was going on in my region (outside of what was posted regarding EVO/MLG/et al, obviously).

Fox's shine infinites were part of the reasons behind many stages being banned back in the day as well (though not always the ONLY reason). A better example may have been something like Mute City and Peach/Jigglypuff in Melee or some mention of Poke Floats.

(bold my emphasis)
The stages were going to be banned regardless of Fox, imo - there's no way they would ban without reason, so some reason was used no matter how flimsy. "Fox infinites" were just the most convenient at the time.

To illustrate the "flimsy" part: Infintes were allowed, whether wobbling/chaingrabs/etc. and usually capped at 300% - so obviously infinites are NOT a reason to ban a stage as they would fall under this usual 300% ruling!
The stages were targeted for ban and this was a poor excuse to ban them, but ANY excuse was going to be excepted because nobody liked these stages.

Note the bold "part" - ultimately many reasons.

The obvious course of competition is removing the non-essential components - this happens with all aspects that I am aware of whether it's game modes (which option of game mode to start), game settings (items/stocks/etc.), character selection (low-tiers rarely/never used in tourney) or stages (outright bans or just ignoring the janky ones until "FD onry" is a meme)

Conclusively: Blaming Fox or meta Knight for Stages being "banned" is shortsighted in the overall picture of natural competitive evolution.

Really? Stage maniacs? No need to throw around insults.

This was not an insult! - it was re: Sakurai regarding us competitive players. lol!

but while we're at it forget anonymous, @Budget Player Cadet_ would probably be happy to talk about Pokemon Stadium 2.

There's several other people I see waging a PS2 crusade - is this seriously a thing people do with their time? Why this stage in particular? Because it's Pokemon themed? I love Pokemon as much as the next Pichu main, but there's a professional difference between loving a series and pushing game rulings on people without reasoning!
(I personally allow PS2 in my tournaments as well as most "banned" stages, btw, but see these questionable stages as having very little competitive value).

Uh, hi, guy who lived through Brawl here, that's just not true. Brinstar and Rainbow Cruise were banned pretty much exclusively because of how powerful Metaknight was there.

They were banned before Meta Knight was a "problem".
Keep in mind, I am speaking from my region as I am sure you are - either we were way ahead of the times or just didn't care about trying to "balance" the game to the extremes (characters are good on some stages, deal with it - otherwise, scrub).

Good stage in Brawl, good stage in Smash 4, would recommend to any ruleset. People who want it banned have terrible reasoning.

I think blanket-statements and absolutism is actually a sure sign for terrible reasoning.
Any stage should be banned if there is good reasoning for it. Reasoning has more priority than opinion, that includes yours.

I was in the back room and personally made threads about stages, their status in official rulesets, and discussions for both Melee and Brawl during their more formative years.

So was my brother, and I can't say I completely trust any of those Back Roomer's opinons.

Multiple stages were banned due solely to Meta Knight and Fox and their perceived dominance on said stages.

Poor decision, imo.

Not their results, mind you -- just people's perceptions. Despite people's insistence that MK or Fox were the only viable option on some stages, results actually showed otherwise.

Interesting. Going to keep note on this.

Onett was basically a normal CP stage for Fox as far as results go... It was banned shortly after MLG Chicago 2005 -- I was there, standing in the crowd and watched the match that brought the stage up for discussion. You can watch it here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dzi7caNIe9E

Wow, blast from the past, I think I remember when that video was new, lol. I can't watcfh video atm, but isn't that the setwhere there was a "rocket cancel" from Fox's U-smash and Ken mysteriously survived? Foreshadowed his Survivor appearance ;^D

Not sure what the video has to do with the discussion. I don't think Onett was a normal or common CP in my region, but back then Midwest was a completely different ruleset (actually, still is).

That's what got Onett banned at the time

...in midwest. (fixed)

Over in the west coast it was banned for many reasons, and I never heard it was due to Fox. It was just a janky stage and I heard more about "hazards" than anything else.

MK was the main force behind banning most of the stages in Brawl. Luigi's Mansion, despite being a horrible stage for MK, was banned mostly due to MK and his tornado.

"Main force", but the stage was already banned before MK was a problem - NorCal was crying about this since 2008 and gave up their Luigi Mansion crusade by 2009.

While he had an average or above average win rate on the stage for most of the cast (and DESTROYED ICs there), many characters had a better win rate on this stage than others. This included Wario, G&W, Snake, and one other I forget.

Which goes to show that "average win rate" probably should not be a determining factor.

The game that brought up Luigi's Mansion for discussion in my region (MW) was from an early tournament in Indiana

Yeah, all our talk about our regions remain verifiable.
Cool.

You are the opposite of correct

In the midwest.
In context of the Pac NW I think your statement falls short.
Try seeing the post from outside your area and let me know how your context holds up and how what I posted couldn't be anything but correct.

 

[Thinkaman]

What I've found is most of the "bad" characters that can't really go toe-to-toe with the top tiers are min-maxing. Little Mac's best set is 2331, without question, because if he gets off stage he dies anyway. That set gives him the possibility of new kill options with up+b OoS, side-bing them into the ground gives him combo damage options, etc.

But two or three months ago, it was all about "how can little mac get back to the stage". Now they know it doesn't happen.

A few nit-picks:

• Grounding Blow is imo the best side-b, though it's less about the questionable on-stage applications and more about the crucial recovery vertical mixup. (Many character who have guaranteed ledge-guards against default Mac don't against either alternate side-b) But Jolt Haymaker is really, really important against a few characters like Sheik and ZSS, because it is a clean answer to Needles and Paralyzer.
• Grounding Blow is side-b 2, not 3.
• Rising Smash is crazy powerful, but it hits on frame twelve billion. Even OoS, it's not really a viable option against people who know what is going on.
• Rising Uppercut, meanwhile, is frame 1 invincible. (And hits on frame 3) It can break out of any pseudo-combo in the game, like Rest; this includes most repeating jabs. It's also LM's only true option against platform camping, because it hits faster than human reaction time. (unlike Rising Smash) It can also be used out of d-throw at around 100% to kill--this can be DI'd but is otherwise a true combo.
• Rising Smash cannot link on any buried opponent but Jigglypuff. Rising Uppercut links on most the cast.
• Dash Counter (3) can activate one frame sooner and travels farther, making it a superior recovery choice. (All his counters are overshadowed by his smashes on the ground.)

Regardless of all the nit-picking, the key point was spot-on. Diddy, Sheik, ZSS, Ness, Yoshi, and other good characters not named Pikachu aren't min-maxing their loadouts, attempting to desperately squeeze some change out of the status quo. It's the Kirbys and Ganons and WFTs and Charizards and Koopa Kids of the world.

It's almost as if good characters have good moves they'd prefer to keep, and bad character have bad moves they'd prefer to reconsider.

 

[Overswarm]

The one I use is grounding blow, put the wrong number in :B

Rising Smash is very viable OoS -- I've been using it for a while. It's most useful as a deterrent though. If you call someone with a hard read or they do something silly like f-smash your shield, they just straight up die.

Fun fact:

d-tilt -> f-tilt -> running sweet spot u-smash is a combo if they miss their tech. From that point forward, you can potentially kill them with rising smash. You might need another hit in there. That's huge!

We thought the same about dash counter too for a while, then we learned that you can use the counter to kill little mac >_>



And T0mmy, MLG was a national level ruleset at the time. The ruleset used in the midwest during the time you're referring to was also a mirror of the smashboards ruleset created by BBR members when they voted on stages. I don't really care what your local TO did -- if you do, you probably shouldn't bring it to the table.

 

[2Fat4U]

I think it should be brawl rules. Smash 4 is too fast to be played with only 2 stocks. Plus 2 stocks doesn't leave room for hype comebacks.

 

[T0MMY]

I think it should be brawl rules. Smash 4 is too fast to be played with only 2 stocks. Plus 2 stocks doesn't leave room for hype comebacks.

Wouldn't "too fast" and "hype comebacks" simply be an issue of subjective opinion? If so, then why should we use one person's opinion and not all the countless others?
What is point of reference for this is something called reasoning (or logic) regarding competitive theory - so, what are your reasons for suggesting this?

And T0mmy, MLG was a national level ruleset at the time. The ruleset used in the midwest during the time you're referring to was also a mirror of the smashboards ruleset created by BBR members when they voted on stages.

You say that like I didn't attend these MLG's, bro.
Seeing as they were using midwest rules I think I see why you are trying to make a point of it - but MLG is not the ultimate decision on rules. Might as well take the opportunity to reflect how every region outside midwest made some kind of commotion over the rules being used - they were not the conventional rules for the time (and still are not for a reason). Keep in mind it was a midwest TO who both was pushing the whole unity ruleset on the BBR and who had the say on the MLG ruleset - the Unity Ruleset was about as well received.

I don't really care what your local TO did -- if you do, you probably shouldn't bring it to the table.

If you don't care what TO's outside your own region do then that's your issue to resolve, not mine. I feel it may be shortsighted in the overall scene, but I'll leave you to your opinion.
My points still stand. Attempts to "balance" a competitive game by banning/limiting characters/stages is not something to jump to immediately and blindly.

 

[MintChipper]

StylesX2 just released a video on why Battlefield should be a counterpick with Miiverse being a starter stage, thoughts?

 

[Pyr]

I think it's completely worthless because all the stage jank he showed for Battlefield will likely occur with the former stage as well. The entire video is sensationalized as hell.

 

[Pazx]

That video was a stage spike compilation and an example of quick attack distorting hurtboxes. Once again, we can't make any judgement on Miiverse until we've played on it.

 

[Yikarur]

Hey guys.
The german community is making a revision of their stage set.
it's looking like this at the moment:
Starter:
BF/SV/Omega
CP:
TnC
Lylat Cruise
Duck Hunt
Delfino
Wuhu Island
Halberd

The Revision contains the discussion if Kongo Jungle 64 and Pokémon Stadium 2 should be added and if Halberd should be removed.

Polls resulted in 50:50 in KJ64's and PS2's case and 60:40 for keeping Halberd.
We'll switch to 5 Starters adding TnC and LC as well.

What is the general opinion at the moment? what stage lists are used in the US and where? If your region uses evo ruleset atm what did you use before and what are you going to use afterwards most likely?

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Hey guys.
The german community is making a revision of their stage set.
it's looking like this at the moment:
Starter:
BF/SV/Omega
CP:
TnC
Lylat Cruise
Duck Hunt
Delfino
Wuhu Island
Halberd

The Revision contains the discussion if Kongo Jungle 64 and Pokémon Stadium 2 should be added and if Halberd should be removed.

Polls resulted in 50:50 in KJ64's and PS2's case and 60:40 for keeping Halberd.
We'll switch to 5 Starters adding TnC and LC as well.

What is the general opinion at the moment? what stage lists are used in the US and where? If your region uses evo ruleset atm what did you use before and what are you going to use afterwards most likely?

3 starters is too few IMO but you say you're switching to 5 so that's progress at least. Where's Skyloft though?

@Budget Player Cadet_ you're in Germany. Thoughts?

 

[MajorMajora]

…Germany used to have fewer stages legal?

Maybe I'm just living inside my little fantasy world where the moderate stance is a 5 starter list including T&C and Lylat with Delfino, Halberd, DH, and Castle Siege as CP's and people who want any less than that can be considered to be significantly conservative (except maybe with regards to halberd), but man I'm surprised places are still using 3 starter lists.

 

[Piford]

Hey guys.
The german community is making a revision of their stage set.
it's looking like this at the moment:
Starter:
BF/SV/Omega
CP:
TnC
Lylat Cruise
Duck Hunt
Delfino
Wuhu Island
Halberd

The Revision contains the discussion if Kongo Jungle 64 and Pokémon Stadium 2 should be added and if Halberd should be removed.

Polls resulted in 50:50 in KJ64's and PS2's case and 60:40 for keeping Halberd.
We'll switch to 5 Starters adding TnC and LC as well.

What is the general opinion at the moment? what stage lists are used in the US and where? If your region uses evo ruleset atm what did you use before and what are you going to use afterwards most likely?

How did you guys manage to get PS2 legal before Skyloft? Like getting PS2 legal is great, but most people seem to like skyloft more.

 

[Yikarur]

Skyloft has the bad habit of rescuing people who were destined to die "randomly" because the stages hitboxes are so inconsistent. Most people won't support that.

 

[Pazx]

I'm a strong believer that Skyloft is the best travelling stage for competitive play.

…Germany used to have fewer stages legal?

Maybe I'm just living inside my little fantasy world where the moderate stance is a 5 starter list including T&C and Lylat with Delfino, Halberd, DH, and Castle Siege as CP's and people who want any less than that can be considered to be significantly conservative (except maybe with regards to halberd), but man I'm surprised places are still using 3 starter lists.

I think you're correct, a moderate stage list would probably have about 9-11 stages on it.

 

[Marty.]

Sure Skyloft saves people when they miscalculate the stage's hitboxes, but it also interferes with the character's attacks. Saving a character which should have killed them in an omega stage or kills a character because the stage moved during a charged attack. Either way Skyloft would be better banned

 

[ParanoidDrone]

If we're talking about Skyloft (again...) then allow me to direct your attention to this thread where at the time of this posting, the poll is currently 115 to 25 in favor of Skyloft being legal. That's 82%.

 

[Marty.]

That's interesting considering things like this http://gfycat.com/WhichJitteryCottonmouth happen on that stage

 

[Overswarm]

Those also happen on Delfino, Castle Siege, and PS1 in Melee, and any transforming stage

 

[Piford]

Skyloft has the bad habit of rescuing people who were destined to die "randomly" because the stages hitboxes are so inconsistent. Most people won't support that.

So did Yoshi's Island (Brawl), but no one bats an eye at that being legal. At least Skyloft isn't technically random, you can see it coming, and it deals damage and puts the person saved in hitstun so it's not as bad for the person who almost got the kill.

 

[LiteralGrill]

Well, it looks like we're getting 2 news stages, Dreamland looks like it's gonna make a 5 stage starter list minimum something no one can ignore.

 

[kackamee]

Well, it looks like we're getting 2 news stages, Dreamland looks like it's gonna make a 5 stage starter list minimum something no one can ignore.

Inb4 wispy gets a slight buff and interrupts game play too much.

 

[Marty.]

Well, it looks like we're getting 2 news stages, Dreamland looks like it's gonna make a 5 stage starter list minimum something no one can ignore.

Which Dreamland; Green Greens or Fountain of Dreams?

 

[Piford]

Which Dreamland; Green Greens or Fountain of Dreams?

Dreamland 64

 

[LiteralGrill]

I spose the debate might as well start again. There is no data to say that the new characters will have customs (AKA 99% they wont have em). So what does that mean for stuff?

 

[dav3yb]

So we have some footage of Ryu's stage out there now... It's a walk off on the right side sadly.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

I spose the debate might as well start again. There is no data to say that the new characters will have customs (AKA 99% they wont have em). So what does that mean for stuff?

It's unfortunate (and annoying, c'mon Sakurai) but I don't see why it should change anything for the 51 characters that can use customs.

 

[dav3yb]

I honestly dont see why its super difficult to do customs for the DLC characters. At this point, the main 2 that would need to be worked on are Ryu and Mewtwo. Lucas could just very easily adopt Ness's moveset, since all of Lucas's moves are part of Ness's customs anyways.

Roy is probably similar enough to Marth that a lot of those moves could be adapted easily as well.

Ryu might be an interesting challenge, but with other characters similar to him in his own games (Ken and Akuma), I don't see it particularly difficult to at least figure out what moves he should end up with.

Mewtwo might be the only one that i wouldn't exactly know what other moves could be used, although obviously pokemon games give a lot of suggestions on that front. I just don't see any major hurdles to adding custom moves for the DLC characters, which is why it disappoints me to not see them mentioned anywhere.

That being said, I don't feel their lack of customs is a huge detriment to their gameplay. And I really like how customs shape the meta, so I'd love for them to stick around, and have more get added.

 

[Ulevo]

If we're talking about Skyloft (again...) then allow me to direct your attention to this thread where at the time of this posting, the poll is currently 115 to 25 in favor of Skyloft being legal. That's 82%.

Ignorance is bliss. I would happily welcome Skyloft becoming legal so it could be swiftly banned and never talked about again once its problems become evident in high stakes matches. Do not get me wrong, I started those polls to get a general idea of community support. But those polls in no way signify the validity to which they should be included for any of them.

Those also happen on Delfino, Castle Siege, and PS1 in Melee, and any transforming stage

Except on those it is difficult to replicate in an actual match. Stuff like that happens often enough on Skyloft in my experience for it to be concerning. Just because a player fell through the stage on PS1 once does not mean it is probable. I have never once ever had that happen to me.

 

[Overswarm]

Ignorance is bliss. I would happily welcome Skyloft becoming legal so it could be swiftly banned and never talked about again once its problems become evident in high stakes matches. Do not get me wrong, I started those polls to get a general idea of community support. But those polls in no way signify the validity to which they should be included for any of them.



Except on those it is difficult to replicate in an actual match. Stuff like that happens often enough on Skyloft in my experience for it to be concerning. Just because a player fell through the stage on PS1 once does not mean it is probable. I have never once ever had that happen to me.

You could do it on command in Castle Siege and Delfino in Brawl -- I'd imagine learning the cause in Smash 4 would allow you to do the same thing.