Meta Competitive Smash Ruleset Discussion

[Kaladin]

Just popping in to give my two pennies on customs, because it really surprises me my particular argument has not been brought up before. To quote myself from a different thread:

This entire discussion is rather silly. Lets use the Sheik example- if Sheik had default bouncing fish, needles, and vanish as customs instead, we would ban them because they make her the best character in the game.

If airbender DK were default, he would be treated like any other annoying-*** top tier. People would complain, but they would adapt and learn the MU. Frankly, I think it all stems from the way customs are presented: like something special and different that you have to put extra effort into getting, as well as being presented alongside equipment. If customs for the entire cast were treated like Mii moves, we wouldn't be having this discussion.

Basically.... Custom moves are totally arbitrary.

 

[Ghostbone]

So reading CEO's ruleset, it states this:

"-Self-destruct Moves: If a match ends with the successful use of a character’s selfdestruct move, the player that initiated the self destruct move wins the match regardless of what the results screen states. Selfdestruct moves include only Ganondorf’s Side B, King Dedede’s Neutral B, Wario’s Neutral B, Bowser’s Side B and Kirby’s Neutral B."

Would it make sense to also include Sonic, Sheik, ZSS, and Bowser's dairs as self-destruct moves if they spike and both characters die?

Yes, as it's just as arbitrary to include those as it is to include the other moves.

 

[John12346]

"-Self-destruct Moves: If a match ends with the successful use of a character’s selfdestruct move, the player that initiated the self destruct move wins the match regardless of what the results screen states."

Oh, I love it when people screw up with this rule.

Ignoring the fact that we're bypassing the results screen which is already horrible in its own right, the way the rule is worded, this means I could be on my last stock, swallowcide my opponent who has two stocks, and still win the game because my successful use of my self-destruct move ended the match.

10/10

 

[ぱみゅ]

Oh, I love it when people screw up with this rule.

Ignoring the fact that we're bypassing the results screen which is already horrible in its own right, the way the rule is worded, this means I could be on my last stock, swallowcide my opponent who has two stocks, and still win the game because my successful use of my self-destruct move ended the match.

10/10

Mind status = BLOWN.
Funny thing is that there is a way to word it correctly, but it will end up being so specific it might even sound silly.

 

[ArikadoSD]

Oh, I love it when people screw up with this rule.

Ignoring the fact that we're bypassing the results screen which is already horrible in its own right, the way the rule is worded, this means I could be on my last stock, swallowcide my opponent who has two stocks, and still win the game because my successful use of my self-destruct move ended the match.

10/10

That is the perfect example of taking something out of context. I mean surely the rule would assume it's on last stock both players.

 

[John12346]

Funny thing is that there is a way to word it correctly, but it will end up being so specific it might even sound silly.

It's not too bad to word it, I'd say. Something like:

- Self-Destruct Moves: If a match ends with the successful use of a character’s self destruct move while both players are on their last stock, the player that initiated the self-destruct move wins the match regardless of what the results screen states.

or, if we're following the results screen if it shows up(which we should of course)

- Self-Destruct Moves: If a match goes to Sudden Death through the successful use of a character’s self-destruct move, the player that initiated the self-destruct move wins the match.

should suffice, eh?

That is the perfect example of taking something out of context. I mean surely the rule would assume it's on last stock both players.

I know, I know, I just enjoy pointing it out, is all, eh heh...

 

[thehard]

I thought the Suicide Clause was removed from D1's google doc of the CEO rules anyway.

It's not in EVO's rules, fyi

 

[SmashChu]

most of the people that are against customs say that they are broken but not because they are mad good but because they are annoying in a normal match, camping and projectile spamming is not very efficient against good characters you will probably still win, the thing is that while it allows some characters not only become better but more fun and add really good variety to the game (ganon,palutena,DHD etc) it also adds a lot of lame strats that hurt the game even if they are not efficient people will still use them, what is the point of competitive smash bros if you are not having fun and testing your skills.

6 Pool, Proxy Cannon, and banshees could be seen as "lame strat," but the players don't demand those to be banned. They deal with it and play through it. Because some moves seem annoying is not a reason to ban all moves.

 

[Seiniyta]

There are 408 custom moves where there's maybe 5-10 controversial moves. If there's 7 bannable custom moves that's still only 1.72% of all the custom moves. It would be tragic to lose 401 custom moves because of a few bad ones.

Using DOSP seems pretty solid. Heavy Skull Bash, Kong Cyclone, Hammer Spindash and the tripping sapling customs definitly should get the ban in that case. Though I'm also concerned about stun jolt from pikachu, without HSB you can still infinite it and finish with an upsmash, no?

 

[ArikadoSD]

Just popping in to give my two pennies on customs, because it really surprises me my particular argument has not been brought up before. To quote myself from a different thread:

This entire discussion is rather silly. Lets use the Sheik example- if Sheik had default bouncing fish, needles, and vanish as customs instead, we would ban them because they make her the best character in the game.

If airbender DK were default, he would be treated like any other annoying-*** top tier. People would complain, but they would adapt and learn the MU. Frankly, I think it all stems from the way customs are presented: like something special and different that you have to put extra effort into getting, as well as being presented alongside equipment. If customs for the entire cast were treated like Mii moves, we wouldn't be having this discussion.

Basically.... Custom moves are totally arbitrary.

There are way too many incorrect things in your post. First of all you make so many assumptions and "what ifs", which really doesn't help with your argument at all.

Second of all, you assume we would ban customs because if Sheik's current default moves were customs she'd be the best in the game... I mean that's a huge what if and basically a useless example that, as I said, doesn't help your argument at all.

Same goes to Kong Cyclone being a default.

Basically what you said was "if current default moves were customs we'd ban them, and if custom moves were default we'd just be annoyed and deal with it" but that's not the case and that's not a reason we should allow customs /at all/, it's a very poor argument.

Also about customs. It's a slippery slope when we ban a handful. Why ban a couple custom moves when we can ban others as well? Also, it's not just a few customs that are broken. The few customs that everyone's complaining about are /obviously/ broken but then there are those who aren't so obvious, and that create game scenarios that normally wouldn't be there and give an advantage to players when they otherwise shouldn't have them in a no customs environment. I mean I don't have to say anything; when a character goes from completely unviable in tournament to extremely viable (DK, Palutena), you know something is wrong.

Then there are stuff like Fox's twister custom which kills ridiculously early. Sheik's penetrating needles which can break shields given enough pressure is provided (a set up i've seen gsm VoiD do is throwing a grenade + penetrating needles which breaks shields instantly if they opt for shield and are in a bad position if they jump), Gravity Grenade which gives her a ridiculous kill set up, Rosalina's Luma Shot (falco laser basically) which gives her an amazing projectile, Luma warp, Crescent Slash, etc.

Also, I know we shouldn't exactly be bringing this up as we're all assuming this is all in a best case scenario, but it's not. Not everyone has a powersave and a 3DS to instantly get all the sets, and not everyone has the patience or time to sit for hours farming customs to use on their characters. I just don't see why we should allow unlockable items such as customs when we don't allow stuff like Smooth Lander or Heavy Gravity which are also unlockable items. It's exactly the same thing, and aren't really provided in normal play and not available for everyone.

And finally, no one wants to see custom villager time out all his matches.

A large number of customs are broken, they're not available for everyone, and I see no reason they should be used in standard tournament play.

 

[Seiniyta]

There are way too many incorrect things in your post. First of all you make so many assumptions and "what ifs", which really doesn't help with your argument at all.

Second of all, you assume we would ban customs because if Sheik's current default moves were customs she'd be the best in the game... I mean that's a huge what if and basically a useless example that, as I said, doesn't help your argument at all.

Same goes to Kong Cyclone being a default.

Basically what you said was "if current default moves were customs we'd ban them, and if custom moves were default we'd just be annoyed and deal with it" but that's not the case and that's not a reason we should allow customs /at all/, it's a very poor argument.

Also about customs. It's a slippery slope when we ban a handful. Why ban a couple custom moves when we can ban others as well? Also, it's not just a few customs that are broken. The few customs that everyone's complaining about are /obviously/ broken but then there are those who aren't so obvious, and that create game scenarios that normally wouldn't be there and give an advantage to players when they otherwise shouldn't have them in a no customs environment. I mean I don't have to say anything; when a character goes from completely unviable in tournament to extremely viable (DK, Palutena), you know something is wrong.

Then there are stuff like Fox's twister custom which kills ridiculously early. Sheik's penetrating needles which can break shields given enough pressure is provided (a set up i've seen gsm VoiD do is throwing a grenade + penetrating needles which breaks shields instantly if they opt for shield and are in a bad position if they jump), Gravity Grenade which gives her a ridiculous kill set up, Rosalina's Luma Shot (falco laser basically) which gives her an amazing projectile, Luma warp, Crescent Slash, etc.

Also, I know we shouldn't exactly be bringing this up as we're all assuming this is all in a best case scenario, but it's not. Not everyone has a powersave and a 3DS to instantly get all the sets, and not everyone has the patience or time to sit for hours farming customs to use on their characters. I just don't see why we should allow unlockable items such as customs when we don't allow stuff like Smooth Lander or Heavy Gravity which are also unlockable items. It's exactly the same thing, and aren't really provided in normal play and not available for everyone.

And finally, no one wants to see custom villager time out all his matches.

A large number of customs are broken, they're not available for everyone, and I see no reason they should be used in standard tournament play.

That's where the criteria becomes important so there can't be a slippery slope really. Twisting fox is really good, but as far as I know it doesn't kill as early as HSB, you also have like an enternity to DI it, and when whiffed you're open for a really hard punish. It's definitly a straight upgrade but it's not broken by any means.

To compare: Twisting Fox kills King Dedede (cpu training mode) on Battlefield at 113'ish % (no rage) whilst HSB kills King dedede at 47% from the centre of the stage.

HSB has guaranteed setups whilst as far as I know Twisting Fox doesn't.

Regarding Sheik: The needles are matchup dependent and have way less range as well. It's a good move but it doesn't make Sheik stronger or weaker. I feel it's not as reliable as default needles even if it has some cool setups.

 

[ArikadoSD]

Regarding Sheik: The needles are matchup dependent and have way less range as well. It's a good move but it doesn't make Sheik stronger or weaker. I feel it's not as reliable as default needles even if it has some cool setups.

I really didn't wanna get into the specifics but since you did then I might as well.

The real factor that decides whether penetrating needles or default ones are better ultimately comes down to the stage or character. If it's a big stage like FD, default needles are usually better unless you're fighting Rosalina, at which case I'd personally go for penetrating needles. In smaller stages like BF, Dreamland, or even smashville, penetrating needles can be better.

Anyway, you're strawmanning. My point was more aimed at people who say "there a lot of customs and the broken ones are only a few while the others are okay"; no, it's not just a few, it's more. They're also most likely more than okay.

 

[deepseadiva]

There are way too many incorrect things in your post. First of all you make so many assumptions and "what ifs", which really doesn't help with your argument at all.

His whole post was hypothetical. Neither correct or incorrect because its an illustration.

But its a good illustration. Why in this instance is "default" the only thing considered legal, when we have never used defaults-only in competition? 2 minute timer matches with all-items on? Like Generic said, its because its arbitrary!!! "Not default" has never been used to ban anything until now.

He's pointing out that particular inconstancy in reasoning.

 

[ArikadoSD]

His whole post was hypothetical. Neither correct or incorrect because its an illustration.

But its a good illustration. Why in this instance is "default" the only thing considered legal, when we have never used defaults-only in competition? 2 minute timer matches with all-items on? Like Generic said, its because its arbitrary!!! "Not default" has never been used to ban anything until now.

He's pointing out that particular inconstancy in reasoning.

Changing rules to stocks, no items, and setting a timer takes maybe 20 seconds and that's if you're really slow. Also, the overwhelming majority of people agreed on it.

Unlocking customs takes hours upon hours of gameplay, or a 3DS, a Sm4sh copy, and a power save, and it's extremely controversial to the point where I don't think it's even worth considering. The fact that a bunch of them are way too good is just a bonus.

 

[Kaladin]

There are way too many incorrect things in your post. First of all you make so many assumptions and "what ifs", which really doesn't help with your argument at all.

Second of all, you assume we would ban customs because if Sheik's current default moves were customs she'd be the best in the game... I mean that's a huge what if and basically a useless example that, as I said, doesn't help your argument at all.

Same goes to Kong Cyclone being a default.

Basically what you said was "if current default moves were customs we'd ban them, and if custom moves were default we'd just be annoyed and deal with it" but that's not the case and that's not a reason we should allow customs /at all/, it's a very poor argument.

I use the sheik example because a previous poster in the thread I originally brought this up in proposed that we should ban a custom move if it makes a character as good as or better than sheik. I probably should have provided context, so that's on me.

What I said is that if current controversial customs were default instead, we would not move to ban that character/force them to use a custom instead of a default. Our actions and attitudes towards a given move drastically changed based on the little number in front of them that could be literally anything else. No logical consistency.

 

[deepseadiva]

Changing rules to stocks, no items, and setting a timer takes maybe 20 seconds and that's if you're really slow. Also, the overwhelming majority of people agreed on it.

Unlocking customs takes hours upon hours of gameplay, or a 3DS, a Sm4sh copy, and a power save, and it's extremely controversial to the point where I don't think it's even worth considering. The fact that a bunch of them are way too good is just a bonus.

This is the worst reasoning ever honestly. "Customs are a hassle to unlock"

RYU COSTS EXTRA MONEY talk to me about hassle >_____________>

It takes like 20 minutes to prep a Wii U with a 3DS. Unless you're running a tournament like in August 2014 this is not a valid excuse.

 

[ArikadoSD]

This is the worst reasoning ever honestly. "Customs are a hassle to unlock"

RYU COSTS EXTRA MONEY talk to me about hassle >_____________>

It takes like 20 minutes to prep a Wii U with a 3DS. Unless you're running a tournament like in August 2014 this is not a valid excuse.

Yes, ignore my other arguments and focus on the one you don't like and respond with exaggerations please.

Anyway I'm done here, didn't think I'd ever end up arguing on this topic but I ended up doing just that, so I'll drop out. We're all too stubborn for our own good and I seem to be outnumbered.

 

[deepseadiva]

Yes, ignore my other arguments and focus on the one you don't like and respond with exaggerations please.

Anyway I'm done here, didn't think I'd ever end up arguing on this topic but I ended up doing just that, so I'll drop out. We're all too stubborn for our own good and I seem to be outnumbered.

You made that a huge point and "the fact that a bunch of them are way too good is just a bonus."

And that's not even a good point either because why would you ban like 400 moves just because, what, like 5 are annoying?

Good get out you're not saying anything important. xD

 

[ArikadoSD]

You made that a huge point and "the fact that a bunch of them are way too good is just a bonus."

And that's not even a good point either because why would you ban like 400 moves just because, what, like 5 are annoying?

Good get out you're not saying anything important. xD

xD.

I clearly said it's more than 5 btw you just haven't been reading. xD

xD.

 

[Skarfelt]

These threads are a perpetual, hostile circlejerk of the same opinions over and over again. Someone disagrees with customs? "Get out". Really? That's not discussion, that's oppression of opinion. Extreme as that statement may be, you're doing absolutely nothing for promoting different rulesets when anyone who disagrees with your opinion is responded to with aggro.

This isn't a dig about me personally disliking customs but there currently is just no point offering other opinions to this thread and threads like it. If you want discussion, at least pretend to be open to opinions that aren't your own. Debates can't be a one way street.

 

[deepseadiva]

xD.

I clearly said it's more than 5 btw you just haven't been reading. xD

xD.

These threads are a perpetual, hostile circlejerk of the same opinions over and over again. Someone disagrees with customs? "Get out". Really? That's not discussion, that's oppression of opinion. Extreme as that statement may be, you're doing absolutely nothing for promoting different rulesets when anyone who disagrees with your opinion is responded to with aggro.

This isn't a dig about me personally disliking customs but there currently is just no point offering other opinions to this thread and threads like it. If you want discussion, at least pretend to be open to opinions that aren't your own. Debates can't be a one way street.

Yes some of these weak ass posters need to GET OUT because so many of the points brought up are total nonsense.

Its harmful to put forward that we need to ban characters because they are a "hassle" to unlock. That's not something anyone needs to entertain and that is not an opinion anyone needs to respect. Maybe someone else wants to hold their hand while we walk around that logical pothole but for serious discussion thats just some total detraction that honestly should be called out more often.

 

[ぱみゅ]

Being condescending doesn't help either.

I just like to refute poor arguments.

 

[Skarfelt]

I don't remember anyone suggesting we should ban characters, let alone the primary reason being because they're a "hassle" to unlock (which they are 100%, by the way).

 

[deepseadiva]

I don't remember anyone suggesting we should ban characters, let alone the primary reason being because they're a "hassle" to unlock (which they are 100%, by the way).

In the paraphrased holy words of our Lord and Savior Mashiro Sakurai "a character with different move properties, even if they differ slightly, is given their own separate slot". See: Lucina.

For all intents and purposes to a Smash player, customs-off bans a lot of characters.

 

[Skarfelt]

He also says we should stop playing competitive Smash soooo

I understand where you're getting that from, though. I don't think it's a very good way to phrase things because it's not really accurate in a literal sense and it makes the argument sound more extreme than it has to be. I do agree that some custom variations are basically new characters after a certain point like Doc and obviously Palutena as well. I'm not going to post about my stance on customs' legality here for reasons I stated before.

 

[ぱみゅ]

Once I decided to take my time to unlock them on my 3DS, while figuring out how to do it faster, and having a job to prevent me from trying more than 2 hours a day, it took me about 3 weeks.
Some people with more free time than me and already knowing the secret to unlock them might take a lot less time.

I think it's annoying to buy extra content, or to practice against Diddy, but why would we punish people who did take their time/money to practice?

 

[deepseadiva]

I understand where you're getting that from, though. I don't think it's a very good way to phrase things because it's not really accurate in a literal sense and it makes the argument sound more extreme than it has to be.

It sounds extreme because something extreme is happening: characters are being banned.

It's manipulative by those banning customs to word it otherwise. They definitely are carefully phrasing custom characters as an "other". As if its some distant and obscure special mode. It's really extreme to ban characters on personal preference reasoning, but that's exactly what is happening. It sounds extreme because it is.

 

[b2jammer]

It sounds extreme because something extreme is happening: characters are being banned.

It's manipulative by those banning customs to word it otherwise. They definitely are carefully phrasing custom characters as an "other". As if its some distant and obscure special mode. It's really extreme to ban characters on personal preference reasoning, but that's exactly what is happening. It sounds extreme because it is.

In what sense do you mean by "customs-off means we're banning characters"? Is it just a matter of characters becoming un-viable without customs, or are the custom sets themselves characters of their own?

 

[deepseadiva]

Custom sets for all purposes are different characters. Basically in Smash 4 we got clone characters of everyone on the roster.

And we want to ban all of them. <___<

That might be a helpful way of looking at the situation.

 

[Name Cannot be changed]

Custom sets for all purposes are different characters. Basically in Smash 4 we got clone characters of everyone on the roster.

And we want to ban all of them. <___<

That might be a helpful way of looking at the situation.

OR...

we could look at custom move sets as "10 combinations of 8 additional special moves (2 for each direction) for each character that can be selected before a match"

If we consider custom move sets as new characters that shouldn't be banned, why not consider custom equipment sets as new characters who are also allowed by that logic? After all, each custom equipment set affects a character's movement speed, attack damage, jump height, etc.

(Playing devil's advocate since I personally like customs. I just don't think @ deepseadiva 's arguement is sound)

 

[deepseadiva]

Equipment is actually completely broken and totally unusable to use in a tournament environment basically forever. Never a good comparison. Might as wonder why we don't use Final Smashes.

Anyways.

What makes Lucina more different from Marth? They have identical skeleton properties right? Why isn't she an alternate color, like the Robyns? Because different moves are essentially different characters.

 

[Skarfelt]

Lucina's special moves are the same minus the tipper, same as her normal moves. Every clone has more than just specials separating them (excpet Dark Pit who's a joke anyway). Also, dismissing equipment as "completely broken" when balanced sets can be made is more than a little ironic.

 

[LiteralGrill]

You know while it seems silly, there's one argument people simply don't talk about that really should be considered more. Smash lets people play the game how THEY want. If people don't WANT to play with customs, they simply wont. If those people host tournaments, or see people coming to their tournaments not wanting to play with customs, they're just gonna ban them.

No amount of logic nor debate will change that fact. Unless you can convince everyone that customs are fun they're gonna be banned at a lot of events (especially FGC like events where they wont wanna put the extra effort in but might wanna include Smash) they're going to slowly see less use. Since most large majors or regionals outside of Evo have begun plans to remove them after Evo is done (and some have tournaments planned after Evo without them) it's gonna be one hell of an uphill battle.

Smash is such a political game. You wont be winning the customs debate here by talking logic, you'll be winning it by having enough majors continue to run them to keep it relevant.

Personally I don't wanna see customs remain for my own reasons. Some of my reasons are logical and I can admit some of them are not. I do think if folks were more open and honest and even admitted on both ends a ton of this is simply personal preference people would be able to have better conversations though.

 

[b2jammer]

You know while it seems silly, there's one argument people simply don't talk about that really should be considered more. Smash lets people play the game how THEY want. If people don't WANT to play with customs, they simply wont. If those people host tournaments, or see people coming to their tournaments not wanting to play with customs, they're just gonna ban them.

No amount of logic nor debate will change that fact. Unless you can convince everyone that customs are fun they're gonna be banned at a lot of events (especially FGC like events where they wont wanna put the extra effort in but might wanna include Smash) they're going to slowly see less use. Since most large majors or regionals outside of Evo have begun plans to remove them after Evo is done (and some have tournaments planned after Evo without them) it's gonna be one hell of an uphill battle.

Smash is such a political game. You wont be winning the customs debate here by talking logic, you'll be winning it by having enough majors continue to run them to keep it relevant.

Personally I don't wanna see customs remain for my own reasons. Some of my reasons are logical and I can admit some of them are not. I do think if folks were more open and honest and even admitted on both ends a ton of this is simply personal preference people would be able to have better conversations though.

I agree with this, but I'd like to add that with how contentious customization has been for the past 8 or so months, I'm surprised we haven't seen two "official" rulesets from any kind of "back room" yet (the closest I can think of being the APEX and EVO rulesets). Smash becomes a completely different game with custom moves, with a much greater focus on special moves and using strategy outside the battle itself, akin to spending five minutes on adjusting badges in Paper Mario/TTYD before spending another seven minutes on a boss fight.

 

[Kaladin]

You know while it seems silly, there's one argument people simply don't talk about that really should be considered more. Smash lets people play the game how THEY want. If people don't WANT to play with customs, they simply wont. If those people host tournaments, or see people coming to their tournaments not wanting to play with customs, they're just gonna ban them.

No amount of logic nor debate will change that fact. Unless you can convince everyone that customs are fun they're gonna be banned at a lot of events (especially FGC like events where they wont wanna put the extra effort in but might wanna include Smash) they're going to slowly see less use. Since most large majors or regionals outside of Evo have begun plans to remove them after Evo is done (and some have tournaments planned after Evo without them) it's gonna be one hell of an uphill battle.

Smash is such a political game. You wont be winning the customs debate here by talking logic, you'll be winning it by having enough majors continue to run them to keep it relevant.

Personally I don't wanna see customs remain for my own reasons. Some of my reasons are logical and I can admit some of them are not. I do think if folks were more open and honest and even admitted on both ends a ton of this is simply personal preference people would be able to have better conversations though.

Sadly, you are correct.

As a tenative kirby main, this makes me sad

 

[ParanoidDrone]

I agree with this, but I'd like to add that with how contentious customization has been for the past 8 or so months, I'm surprised we haven't seen two "official" rulesets from any kind of "back room" yet (the closest I can think of being the APEX and EVO rulesets). Smash becomes a completely different game with custom moves, with a much greater focus on special moves and using strategy outside the battle itself, akin to spending five minutes on adjusting badges in Paper Mario/TTYD before spending another seven minutes on a boss fight.

I'd expect discussion on an "official" ruleset to pick up after EVO since that'll give us a wealth of data to work with.

 

[Skarfelt]

An official ruleset will be extremely hard to come by. Unlike Melee and Brawl, the majority of discussion is not focused on Smashboards any more due to the rise of social media. You can have votes for or against customs here all you want but we wil never represent all the scene. I'm not really able to offer an alternative, unfortunately.

 

[Notries]

Equipment is actually completely broken and totally unusable to use in a tournament environment basically forever. Never a good comparison. Might as wonder why we don't use Final Smashes.

Anyways.

What makes Lucina more different from Marth? They have identical skeleton properties right? Why isn't she an alternate color, like the Robyns? Because different moves are essentially different characters.

I don't really agree with using equipment, but saying equipment is completely broken is stupid. Every character has access to those "broken" equipment, unlike customs, where "broken" customs can only be accessed by a select few characters, thus making the equipment not broken (see: The Incredibles). So, technically, wouldn't equipment be just as, if not less, broken than customs?

 

[Kaladin]

I don't really agree with using equipment, but saying equipment is completely broken is stupid. Every character has access to those "broken" equipment, unlike customs, where "broken" customs can only be accessed by a select few characters, thus making the equipment not broken (see: The Incredibles). So, technically, wouldn't equipment be just as, if not less, broken than customs?

No, because there are no broken customs.

 

[Notries]

No, because there are no broken customs.

That's why the word "broken" was in quotes. I was showing that customs are going to be naturally less balanced than equipment since every single character gets equal boosts from equipment and with customs it's uneven. None of the customs are really broken and it's relatively more balanced when they're included, but saying that customs are balanced and equipment aren't doesn't really make too much sense.