Meta Competitive Smash Ruleset Discussion

[~ Gheb ~]

Edit: lol wrong thread.

 

[adom4]

I wanna talk about Ganondorf some more. Due to how bad he was in Brawl the concept of Ganon going even with a lot of characters, let alone beat them, still seems strange to a lot of people. I do think he's not actually disadavantaged in the majority of matchups though, even in customless.


I think he goes at least even with the following characters:


The following matchups, while possibly disadvantaged, are also manageable for Ganon:


I don't think Ganon can beat these dudes:

Duck hunt, Yoshi & Pac aren't THAT bad, Ganon still loses to them but it's nowhere near unwinnable.
Personally i think we lose to R.O.B & Ike but they're managable.

 

[oldkingcroz]

Also: I'm still confused why the argument "customs are hard to unlock" is used. Game and Watch was tough to unlock in Melee. He required you to either beat Break the Targets with all characters or play 1000 battles. Same with Final Destination- you needed to beat all 51 event matches (and the last one was extremely difficult). Luckily custom moves can be converted from a 3ds to a Wii u, much like moving save data from memory card to memory card worked on Melee. Unlocking everything is a hassle in both Smash games, honestly.

 

[LiteralGrill]

Also: I'm still confused why the argument "customs are hard to unlock" is used. Game and Watch was tough to unlock in Melee. He required you to either beat Break the Targets with all characters or play 1000 battles. Same with Final Destination- you needed to beat all 51 event matches (and the last one was extremely difficult). Luckily custom moves can be converted from a 3ds to a Wii u, much like moving save data from memory card to memory card worked on Melee. Unlocking everything is a hassle in both Smash games, honestly.

Lucky in Melee that a single memory card could unlock all characters instantaneously in Melee. Not even remotely a close comparison. You cannot unlock every single custom move on consoles for people to constantly practice with, only certain combinations. It really isn't the same. Not to mention the cost of a memory card vs an entire console.

 

[NickRiddle]

@ oldkingcroz I don't really take the opinions of the dumb people seriously; after playing with and without customs, we just prefer the vanilla meta... I mean, we adapt to whatever ruleset is currently happening; if Apex is actually hyped up this year, and they decide customs are legal, that ruling will supersede our wants.

@ John12346 Instead of 1111 2222 3333 I would be open to having 3 sets of moves for each mii-type... giving Miis all of their combinations while not giving the rest of the cast their moves seems like an arbitrary restriction on the other characters... Hell, I'd actually be okay with having 1111 2222 3333 be legal for the entire cast to compensate and promote equality among the cast, but most people wouldn't want it anyway.

 

[Thinkaman]

But why 1111/2222/3333? What the hell is special about those sets?

Why not some nice prime numbers, like 1231/2213/3221?

Why on earth should what Nintendo numbered the moves have anything to do with legality?

 

[MajorMajora]

But why 1111/2222/3333? What the hell is special about those sets?

Why not some nice prime numbers, like 1231/2213/3221?

Why on earth should what Nintendo numbered the moves have anything to do with legality?

Fixed it.

Edit: Forgot quotes italicized everything. I switched the italics to Nintendo. Humor.

 

[oldkingcroz]

Lucky in Melee that a single memory card could unlock all characters instantaneously in Melee. Not even remotely a close comparison. You cannot unlock every single custom move on consoles for people to constantly practice with, only certain combinations. It really isn't the same. Not to mention the cost of a memory card vs an entire console.

It's still a huge hassle, regardless, for the person with the original memory card in each city/smash community. I only, until rather recently, just unlocked the Super Mario (Bros 2?) stage on my family Melee. And we've had the game since it came out.
But-yes- that's true- only custom move sets can be transferred (opposed to every single custom move period). But only custom move sets can be used in [most] tournaments, so there is no point in having all custom move unlocked (unless the custom move project is updated post-EVO). Why practice with something that you won't be able to use in tournaments?

As for the cost of a memory card vs. a 3ds, I don't see how that's relevant (seeing that the person who unlocks all of the Melee stages/ characters needed to have Melee, a GameCube, and a TV in the first place).

 

[John12346]

double post

 

[John12346]

Instead of 1111 2222 3333 I would be open to having 3 sets of moves for each mii-type... giving Miis all of their combinations while not giving the rest of the cast their moves seems like an arbitrary restriction on the other characters... Hell, I'd actually be okay with having 1111 2222 3333 be legal for the entire cast to compensate and promote equality among the cast, but most people wouldn't want it anyway.

That's understandable if you don't want to make it seem like you're giving over favoritism to a specific character(s). I still believe that's not the case, and it's perfectly fine to give Miis combinations of custom specials while everyone else gets nada, so try my train of thought on for size, and see what you think.

Mii Fighters are obviously very different from the rest of the cast when it comes to customizing special move loadouts. Not only do you pick a completely different menu from the other fighters to access them, but they can also have up to 100 slots and, by the game's own rules, still use their altered specials in a no customs environment. From my understanding, this aspect of a character being able to choose their special moves before a game, regardless of the ruleset, is just something that makes that character special and unique, similar to how Zelda, Samus(Brawl), and Pokémon Trainer(Brawl) were able to transform into completely different characters, for example, or how Ice Climbers got two guys for the price of one. I could go on with examples, but you catch my drift, yeah?

 

[NickRiddle]

But why 1111/2222/3333? What the hell is special about those sets?

Why not some nice prime numbers, like 1231/2213/3221?

Why on earth should what Nintendo numbered the moves have anything to do with legality?

Because any limit is arbitrary, so I'm using Nintendo's arbitrary sets as my arbitrary sets.

That's understandable if you don't want to make it seem like you're giving over favoritism to a specific character(s). I still believe that's not the case, and it's perfectly fine to give Miis combinations of custom specials while everyone else gets nada, so try my train of thought on for size, and see what you think.

Mii Fighters are obviously very different from the rest of the cast when it comes to customizing special move loadouts. Not only do you pick a completely different menu from the other fighters to access them, but they can also have up to 100 slots and, by the game's own rules, still use their altered specials in a no customs environment. From my understanding, this aspect of a character being able to choose their special moves before a game, regardless of the ruleset, is just something that makes that character special and unique, similar to how Zelda, Samus(Brawl), and Pokémon Trainer(Brawl) were able to transform into completely different characters, for example, or how Ice Climbers got two guys for the price of one. I could go on with examples, but you catch my drift, yeah?

This is true, but I don't actually LIKE things like Miis get 100 slots... the fact that they get more than 10 per character in the EVO sets, for example, bother me to no end...

I mean, I'm all for customs being banned, 1111 only, but I'd be willing to compromise.

 

[Thinkaman]

Because any limit is arbitrary, so I'm using Nintendo's arbitrary sets as my arbitrary sets.

To be fair, these sets (2222/3333) are used in Smash Tour. (You know, that paragon of competitive play...)

In practical terms though, 2222 and 3333 are awful on most characters. Most custom moves are bad, after all.

2111/3111/1211/1311/1121/1131/1112/1113 are way more relevant arbitrary restrictions, if we are trying to pick moves in an arbitrary but consistent way for some reason.

 

[NickRiddle]

To be fair, these sets (2222/3333) are used in Smash Tour. (You know, that paragon of competitive play...)

In practical terms though, 2222 and 3333 are awful on most characters. Most custom moves are bad, after all.

2111/3111/1211/1311/1121/1131/1112/1113 are way more relevant arbitrary restrictions, if we are trying to pick moves in an arbitrary but consistent way for some reason.

The reason I never argue about customs is that it comes down to different ways people see the game. I don't like every set being used because it helps some good characters get better, while making some bad characters... almost good, but also keeping some bad characters bad.
I do not feel like Sheik/Pikachu/RosaLuma deserve any ADDITIONAL tools in their current forms, but other people say that customs are their intended form so it's not a buff... doesn't matter to me either way, I'm banning that nonsense once EVO is over, barring some super-major with customs legal.

 

[John12346]

I mean, @ NickRiddle if you want to ban customs that's fine. What I was getting at is that you should allow Mii Fighters to keep using customs in tourney regardless of the format, since the game treats them and their customizability completely differently from the rest of the cast(the main part being they can use different specials even if Customizations is set to "Off" unlike the rest of the cast who's forced to 1111 if that happens).

 

[Thinkaman]

Not gonna lie, if I'm 100% honest, I don't care about customs for Sheik, Pikachu, Villager, whatever. Ban them, allow them, I straight up don't care.

What I care about is de facto banning Palutena and WFT from play, and sending anyone who plays them to the back of the bus.


If a genie offered me the option to delete ever custom in the game to make 23X2 Palutena, X321 WFT, and 31X1 DHD the default versions of those characters, I'd probably accept. (Though I'd probably try and bargain to get Dark Fists and Grounding Blow default too, while I'm at it.)

 

[NickRiddle]

I mean, @ NickRiddle if you want to ban customs that's fine. What I was getting at is that you should allow Mii Fighters to keep using customs in tourney regardless of the format, since the game treats them and their customizability completely differently from the rest of the cast(the main part being they can use different specials even if Customizations is set to "Off" unlike the rest of the cast who's forced to 1111 if that happens).

Real opinion?
Other characters can only use 1 set, limit Miis to default size and 1 set. If you want to make it their optimum set, go for it.

Not gonna lie, if I'm 100% honest, I don't care about customs for Sheik, Pikachu, Villager, whatever. Ban them, allow them, I straight up don't care.

What I care about is de facto banning Palutena and WFT from play, and sending anyone who plays them to the back of the bus.


If a genie offered me the option to delete ever custom in the game to make 23X2 Palutena, X321 WFT, and 31X1 DHD the default versions of those characters, I'd probably accept. (Though I'd probably try and bargain to get Dark Fists and Grounding Blow default too, while I'm at it.)

Best solution: Make 1 custom set per character that they use as default, and change the specials for balance purposes.
Sheik too strong? Gale instead of Vanish.
Palutena lacking? 23(1/2)2

The only problem is coming to a consensus on which characters are too strong/too weak, and optimizing the sets to try to create the most balanced game.

 

[Thinkaman]

Best solution: Make 1 custom set per character that they use as default, and change the specials for balance purposes.
Sheik too strong? Gale instead of Vanish.
Palutena lacking? 23(1/2)2

The only problem is coming to a consensus on which characters are too strong/too weak, and optimizing the sets to try to create the most balanced game.

Yeah, this is reasonable; just ambitious as you say.

I would always want to allow 1111 though, to be as inclusive as possible to casual players.

 

[Muster]

Real opinion?
f Vanish.
Palutena lacking? 23(1/2)2

The only problem is coming to a consensus on which characters are too strong/too weak, and optimizing the sets to try to create the most balanced game.

I understand where you're coming from and how this can help, but I don't think community decided balance changes could ever really be decided on. That and the fact that you know you're playing a gimped version of your character because they're too good normally would probably put a bad taste in the mouth of many players.

 

[NickRiddle]

I understand where you're coming from and how this can help, but I don't think community decided balance changes could ever really be decided on. That and the fact that you know you're playing a gimped version of your character because they're too good normally would probably put a bad taste in the mouth of many players.

I mean, sacrifice the few for the good of the many.

 

[DaRkJaWs]

In addition to nick riddles excellent idea about having a custom set be the default, I'd like TO's to consider as well my idea on having customs on always, but requiring vanilla version be used once before the custom for that character be used. I think this or maybe nicks idea (Or a combination of some sort) are two good solutions going forward. We are never going to agree to a complete ban or allowing them all the time because the community is split on it, or at least the masses that play lower tier characters and like customs are split from the better players that want to play without them.

 

[Ulevo]

You really think we have a valuable resource like maturity in high enough abundance to sustain the arduous, never-ending discussions we would have over micromanaging custom moves for this idealistic notion of a balanced customs meta?

If customs were going to remain the standard, then I could indulge in a little compromising discussion. But given that vanilla is always going to be the main meta, and both can coexist alongside one another, I see no reason to even have the conversation.

You guys should really just be treating this like a relationship. If you don't like the girl, dump her. If you can handle her, great. But don't try to change her to suit your interests when you can date someone else.

 

[NickRiddle]

I don't think it's possible, I just feel like it'd be the best situation.

 

[oldkingcroz]

Honestly Ulevo, I don't know if custom/non custom metas are going to be able to co-exist happily. The people might be able to co-exist (in a customs environment), but one meta will overpower the other eventually. Regionals/ Nationals will follow a set-up, and many locals will follow the trend. If customs were to be the trend, anti-custom peeps will get pissed. Same goes for pro-custom peeps in a vanilla meta. I think NickRiddle's idea has potential to end arguments like "how am I supposed to practice smash when there is 3000 different characters" and "customs are jank". Despite how naive I think these arguments are, Nick's hypothetical solution would shut the anti-custom complainers up AND keep the casual pro-custom people happy about having unique/fun strategies. Let's just say: All mid-tier and below characters get 1 ideal custom set (there's no backroom so lol who knows who the "mid-tier and below" is). Sure- it would be very difficult for all X amount of characters to pick an ideal non 1/1/1/1 set and would be very difficult to place a competitive mandate on a regionwide level, but at least both crowds would be somewhat happy and the game would be more balanced.

I'm in favor of the idea (rather than having a pure-vanilla meta). But it would be very difficult to do.

 

[ぱみゅ]

The best compromise I've read so far is to have one single Custom move per set.
2111/3111/1211/1311/1121/1131/1112/1113.
Granted, most of these sets will remain buried forever, most characters will not really care and stick to 1111, few will actually feel an improvement, and some will remain incomplete, but all in all, is the option I found the most accurately between "add something else to the competitive play" and "not having to deal with too much jank".

 

[MajorMajora]

Really the best one I've seen is AA's custom move project. Because the concept of custom moves somehow breaking the game in ways unheard of in the "default" game to such an extent that it warrants an entirely new system is so radical that it requires far more proof than 90% of anti customs have provided to even have the argument be valid in the first place. Actually, scratch that, no argument should be validated by the stuff 90% of anti-customs sentiment thrown out.

So, I just had the urge to rant, understand it was somewhat emotionally driven, but I seriously think the need for some sort of new system that is a compromise is based off of a misunderstanding of the nature of the argument at hand. The argument is based off of whether customs, as a concept, bring harm to the game's competitive value to a such an extent nothing that they are not worth adding in. If they don't, we keep them, If they do, we go it the no customs ruleset. If they don't, we go with AA's, with the possible implementation of a limited ban system (which I don't favor personally but it is an option). Those are the only rulesets hat favor to either sides sensibilities whatsoever that have been brought up. Everything else is a case of the Golden Mean Fallacy.

For reference of what the fallacy means:

tl;dr: We should stop trying to compromise, arguing the actual validity of customs, and whether banning is necessitated. All your new systems are invalid unless they somehow are entirely customs and no customs at the exact same time, which is inherently impossible. I suppose there may be better systems than AA we haven't come up with, but they aren't going to be any more of a compromise, so any attempt to replace his system with a compromised one is in vain.

(I realize in retrospect that was a very long tl;dr).

 

[Balgorxz]

allowing bad movesets on miis and banning the viable ones is equivalent of banning miis in competitive play, considering miis don't have standard moves all of them are considered defaults

Just so we're all 100% clear on what the status quo is, we are talking about de facto banning Palutena and WFT because people on twitter think Villager and DK, though they don't win events, are annoying.
This is literally the world we live in.

we are banning like 4 characters because 4 characters are annoying, RIP Palutena mains hardwork, RIP Aero and your hype matches.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

I remember the good old days when we only banned things for reasons like "it's demonstrably broken". Does anyone else remember the long explanations of how abusing Temple in Melee worked or about the fine details of why items were a problem? Back when even if the conclusion was to ban that there had to be reasons that really meant something and where substantial discussion of these matters was a thing since everyone viewed banning stuff as a really big deal? This was before we invented the awful non-word that is "jank", a word that pretty much means as far as I can tell "something I personally don't like and is therefore lacking in legitimacy".

Here's the very simple reality of custom moves. They're a part of the game that relies on one player's choices and not the other's. This is just like picking a character and not like picking a stage or doing item settings; if I pick a custom character, it does not affect the type of thing my opponent can pick. In every other instance like this we bend over backwards to allow this stuff; we freely allow the selection of any character in smash including hilariously obviously bad for the game ones like Brawl Ice Climbers, and we let people spend a million years every tournament entering nametags and setting custom controls despite the fact that no nametag and default controls has no legitimate gameplay disadvantage. Artificially banning their selection has obvious and negative balance repercussions. Thinkaman is bringing up Wii Fit Trainer and Palutena; they're obvious since the set 1111 is horribly non-viable on them while various other sets on them are pretty good, and tournament results confirm this as John Numbers and AeroLink have done pretty respectably with viable versions of each while the 1111 versions have more or less just shown themselves to be bad. The best character in the game regardless is Sheik, and while a few custom options on her have minor merits, it's obvious that by and large the system doesn't do much for her. Similar but less extreme balance patterns clearly repeat across the cast.

Banning something only one player is picking is already the most extreme type of ban that our history has strongly resisted up until now, and the clear effects of this ban are to make the balance of the game worse. I can't speak for anyone else, but this makes me feel two very negative ways. One is that this is just completely irrational; why would anyone want to play a game with fewer viable characters and less gameplay diversity? Two is just frustration that it appears so overwhelmingly scrubby. I may just be old, but this is not how competitive gamers are supposed to do things. It feels like a replacement of our classic "no johns" culture with a "john early; john often" culture, and adopting that mentality as a community I feel hurts us even more severely than anything else we can do. I'm sure somehow it's rude to put it this way, and I'm sorry if this offends anyone. I just feel it really needs to be said clearly.

 

[SoniCraft]

Yeah I feel like the majority of anti-custom players have spent way more time complaining about them than figuring out how to deal with them. Come on, if we could deal with Brawl Meta Knight completely ruining the game for most characters, then we can handle some slightly troublesome custom moves.

 

[NickRiddle]

Yeah I feel like the majority of anti-custom players have spent way more time complaining about them than figuring out how to deal with them. Come on, if we could deal with Brawl Meta Knight completely ruining the game for most characters, then we can handle some slightly troublesome custom moves.

Terrible argument, MK super deserved to be banned...

 

[Kaladin]

Terrible argument, MK super deserved to be banned...

But he wasn't at most majors. We dealt with it.

 

[Ghostbone]

But he wasn't at most majors. We dealt with it.

So because the community made a mistake with Brawl they should make the same mistake again?

Not that I'm against customs (I'm impartial), but arguing that since we didn't ban MK we shouldn't ban customs is hilarious.

 

[Kaladin]

So because the community made a mistake with Brawl they should make the same mistake again?

Not that I'm against customs (I'm impartial), but arguing that since we didn't ban MK we shouldn't ban customs is hilarious.

Eh, I would opt for logical consistency, even in consistent mistake making in the context of competitive play.

 

[SoniCraft]

Terrible argument, MK super deserved to be banned...

But do customs SUPER deserve to be banned?

And why didn't we ban MK anyway?

Edit: I came on the brawl scene a bit late, which was when I started smash in the first place, so I don't really know the full history of the MK-ban scenario.

 

[Ghostbone]

But do customs SUPER deserve to be banned?

And why didn't we ban MK anyway?

Edit: I came on the brawl scene a bit late, which was when I started smash in the first place, so I don't really know the full history of the MK-ban scenario.

Pre 2011 "It's too early to ban MK"
Post 2011 "It's too late to ban MK"

WIth customs, at least we have an early major with EVO that will show off customs (though default Sheik is going to win lol)

 

[BCE]

My local scene smashbros group is trying to force some rules on us for futures local tourneaments in SB4, EVERYTIME i demanded a explanation, all they had to tell me is =" its like this since melee and we dont see any reason to change it". 2 specifics rules got in my eyes that should be changed:

1- Winning player is not locked into the same character for the next match, but has to pick before loser selects character.

Winner must be char locked

my reason = ( In EVERY other fighting game, the winner is char locked, because the loser player is already in desadvantage in points and is about to be eliminated from the tourneament ( in better of 3 scenario ), he got a little idea on how the other player plays and will try to counter to continue on the competition, but this rules allows the winner to change to a total different playstyle char and take the little knowledge on the MU out from the loser player)

tl;dr this rule gives advantage to the winner player that is already in huge advantage thanks to the first win point.

2- Following stages decided by winner banning two stages from all stages and then loser choosing.

Winner shouldnt ban any stage, loser choose whatever stage he wants

my reason ( as far as i know, all 10 stages that are usually allowed are considered competitive to every char from the roster. The idea is that the top tier and the bottom tier can play with no problem at all in final destination or duck hunt stage, please tell me, why the winner, that again, is in supreme advantage thanks to win from the first game, is allowed to ban 2 stages ? Exemple: C. Falcon wins against sonic in battlefield, the sonic player wants the second game to be on final destination, stage he thinks he is more comfortable to play thanks to lack of plataforms, but the winner can simply say "i wont play in this stage just because i dont want and deal with it"

tl;dr this rule again gives advantage to the winner, adding more chance of victory to him, that is already in point advantage.

please, can somebody explain to me why these rules are simply ok ? anything logical and racional, not "because it was always like this), i dont care how melee was played, this is a complete different game. And please, dont tell me: "because smash is not a fighting game and should not use a fighting game logic for rules"

 

[Thinkaman]

Winner is allowed to change character (with the loser still having the right to respond) because stage choice matters in Smash.

I actually agree that stage bans are a bad system.


As far as customs, consider:

If I had a tourney where all the ZSS players were forced to play 3223, that would be awful.

I'd be a laughing stock. No one in their right might would acknowledge or respect this event. I'd be de facto banning ZSS, and if I defended myself saying "No, I'm not banning ZSS or people who play her; those players can just play 3223! Or a a different character even! What are you complaining about?!?" I would be rightfully mocked as insane.

Forcing Palutena players to play 1111 is the exact same ****ing thing.

 

[NickRiddle]

My local scene smashbros group is trying to force some rules on us for futures local tourneaments in SB4, EVERYTIME i demanded a explanation, all they had to tell me is =" its like this since melee and we dont see any reason to change it". 2 specifics rules got in my eyes that should be changed:

1- Winning player is not locked into the same character for the next match, but has to pick before loser selects character.

Winner must be char locked

my reason = ( In EVERY other fighting game, the winner is char locked, because the loser player is already in desadvantage in points and is about to be eliminated from the tourneament ( in better of 3 scenario ), he got a little idea on how the other player plays and will try to counter to continue on the competition, but this rules allows the winner to change to a total different playstyle char and take the little knowledge on the MU out from the loser player)

tl;dr this rule gives advantage to the winner player that is already in huge advantage thanks to the first win point.

2- Following stages decided by winner banning two stages from all stages and then loser choosing.

Winner shouldnt ban any stage, loser choose whatever stage he wants

my reason ( as far as i know, all 10 stages that are usually allowed are considered competitive to every char from the roster. The idea is that the top tier and the bottom tier can play with no problem at all in final destination or duck hunt stage, please tell me, why the winner, that again, is in supreme advantage thanks to win from the first game, is allowed to ban 2 stages ? Exemple: C. Falcon wins against sonic in battlefield, the sonic player wants the second game to be on final destination, stage he thinks he is more comfortable to play thanks to lack of plataforms, but the winner can simply say "i wont play in this stage just because i dont want and deal with it"

tl;dr this rule again gives advantage to the winner, adding more chance of victory to him, that is already in point advantage.

please, can somebody explain to me why these rules are simply ok ? anything logical and racional, not "because it was always like this), i dont care how melee was played, this is a complete different game. And please, dont tell me: "because smash is not a fighting game and should not use a fighting game logic for rules"

In other fighting games, stages don't do anything; if somebody stays character locked you essentially double CP them stage + character, allowing winner to change after you picked a stage mitigates the severity of the CP.
You ban two stages because you don't want to give the CPer an extreme advantage again.
You said the loser of game 1 is in a terrible state already while disregarding game 3; now the person who lost game 1 stays in a huge disadvantage because no bans and character locked.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

As far as customs, consider:

If I had a tourney where all the ZSS players were forced to play 3223, that would be awful.

I'd be a laughing stock. No one in their right might would acknowledge or respect this event. I'd be de facto banning ZSS, and if I defended myself saying "No, I'm not banning ZSS or people who play her; those players can just play 3223! Or a a different character even! What are you complaining about?!?" I would be rightfully mocked as insane.

Forcing Palutena players to play 1111 is the exact same ****ing thing.

Can I steal this next time I feel the need to contribute to a customs discussion?

 

[Blobface]

uh

maybe people don't like playing with customs on

i'm all for them but the supporters of customs can be pretty dense sometimes

That would be just fine, but they better actually have a reason for it beyond "jank". I have heard very few anti-customs arguments that don't bring up "jank", or "Sakurai intended".

 

[MajorMajora]

@ Blobface face And "Sakurai intended" is a pretty horrible argument considering how we've never given a crap in the past about what he wanted.

On a separate note, BCE brought up an interesting point I'd never thought about. I'd always go with what I read somewhere earlier (did PD say it? anyways,) that N=1+4b where N=the number of stages legal and b=the number of bans. So in a 13 stage system there would be 3 bans. But is that really a good system? It really just there to be convenient with good stagelists for stage striking rather than being well balanced.

I guess this, in some ways, is an argument of the effects of adding vs. subtracting stage bans, so I'm going to list what I believe to be the effects of both.

Fewer stage bans:
-Increase stage diversity, which in turn does increase skill cap to an extent by having people need to learn all stages, or may decrease it by making the matchup for games 2/3 more weighted.
-Gives the loser a bigger advantage, focusing much more of the skill matchup into the first game of a match, which may also make game 2 and 3 more predictable, which will effect viewer engagement.
-Gives the loser a bigger advantage, which increases the likelihood of sets going to game 3/game 5, increasing tournament time as well as tension per set, which will effect viewer engagement.
-Gives the loser a bigger advantage, making upsets both less common and more notable or "hype", effecting viewer engagement.
-Makes some characters less viable for the counterpickee (such as little mac).
-Makes some characters more viable for the counterpicker (such as little mac).

More stage bans:
-Does the opposite of all the points listed above.