Competitive Principles: Mii

[Dooms]

It's more because the default "Customs off" option allows the Mii Fighters to have any Special they were given, but Palutena doesn't have that luxury and customs have to be on to use her different specials. It's probably a by-product of that situation, since it IS a pain to either make a new Palutena custom in Wii U or the verify that the Palutena somebody brought on their 3DS is 0/0/0.

It's not a pain to make a Palutena custom moveset though. It's not a pain to make any custom set if you already have the customs on your Wii U. It literally takes 30 seconds if not that, and that's what we use to make custom controls (plus it only becomes quicker the more people become used to the menus).

Regardless, it'd be just as much of a pain to make a Mii Fighter or to import a Mii Fighter as it would to make a custom Palutena set.

 

[Phase 2]

Yes, but it doesn't mean that the other special moves that the Miis can use are not what the game considers to be custom moves. If the Mii Fighters are allowed to use those special moves regardless of whether the other characters can't, then they have an unfair advantage and freedom that the other characters don't have.

I can see where they have more freedom, which is literally a part of their design, but in what appreciable way is there an inherent advantage to being able to make a one-off customized fighter? Keeping in mind that in most cases only 1 or 2 of the move options are worthwhile, and also keeping in mind that Brawler is the only one that has shown ANY competitive promise at all so far. Any player worth playing will have no trouble determining the properties of the Mii and acting accordingly. Worst case you could just make Mii players show their movesets before the match. We already covered this before, its not like people would be changing moves on their Mii mid-set. That's just common sense.

 

[LimitCrown]

I can see where they have more freedom, which is literally a part of their design, but in what appreciable way is there an inherent advantage to being able to make a one-off customized fighter? Keeping in mind that in most cases only 1 or 2 of the move options are worthwhile, and also keeping in mind that Brawler is the only one that has shown ANY competitive promise at all so far. Any player worth playing will have no trouble determining the properties of the Mii and acting accordingly. Worst case you could just make Mii players show their movesets before the match. We already covered this before, its not like people would be changing moves on their Mii mid-set. That's just common sense.

They have the inherent advantage of being able to use a variety of moves and being able to benefit from that, which the other characters can't do if they're not allowed to use their other special moves, too. This is if the Mii Fighters are allowed to use their custom special moves unlike the other characters. The Mii Fighters are customizable just as much as every other character.

 

[Azazel]

The only reason Customs are off is not because balance, as there hasn't been enough anything found to be completely broken and unbalanced, but simply that customization slots are limited. The editing slots cause extra hassle. this is the main reason
Miis customs do not have limited slots. This rule should not apply to them.

f the Mii Fighters are allowed to use those special moves regardless of whether the other characters can't, then they have an unfair advantage and freedom that the other characters don't have.

Mii custom moves are not broken.

It doesn't matter if is it so called "unfair" I.E. other characters don't have access to it, it is just an advantage Miis have over other characters that they may exploit. If it is not unfair enough to be considered broken, it should not be banned.If you can explain why it is so incredibly so unfair and broken that access to their moves should be banned then do explain. I don't see a broken advantage.

 

[JamietheAuraUser]

The only reason Customs are off is not because balance, as there hasn't been enough anything found to be completely broken and unbalanced, but simply that customization slots are limited. The editing slots cause extra hassle. this is the main reason
Miis customs do not have limited slots. This rule should not apply to them.

Um… it literally takes like 30 seconds to set up a character's custom moves. The loading time is notably shorter than for custom controls. I honestly don't see how that could be a problem, especially not enough of one for them to be banned. I'll see for myself when I get the game, I guess, but right now it just sounds like people being old-fashioned. I've yet to hear a good argument in favour of their banning other than "they take forever to unlock".

 

[Azazel]

Um… it literally takes like 30 seconds to set up a character's custom moves. The loading time is notably shorter than for custom controls. I honestly don't see how that could be a problem, especially not enough of one for them to be banned. I'll see for myself when I get the game, I guess, but right now it just sounds like people being old-fashioned. I've yet to hear a good argument in favour of their banning other than "they take forever to unlock".

I'm totally for Custom Moves but It's ultimately up to TO's, if they say its too long to unlock and/or that they are a hassle then no customs for their tournaments

 

[LimitCrown]

Mii custom moves are not broken.

It doesn't matter if is it so called "unfair" I.E. other characters don't have access to it, it is just an advantage Miis have over other characters that they may exploit. If it is not unfair enough to be considered broken, it should not be banned.If you can explain why it is so incredibly so unfair and broken that access to their moves should be banned then do explain. I don't see a broken advantage.

I never said that their custom moves were broken. It isn't about whether or not their custom moves are broken. It's that the Mii Fighters become the exception if you allow them to use theirs and not allow the other characters to do the same. Either all of the characters should be able to use their custom moves, or none of them should be able to.

 

[Azazel]

I never said that their custom moves were broken. It isn't about whether or not their custom moves are broken. It's that the Mii Fighters become the exception if you allow them to use theirs and not allow the other characters to do the same. Either all of the characters should be able to use their custom moves, or none of them should be able to.

Fair, enough. sorry about that, should have made it more clear it was just to show that it doesn't give Miis super advantage. The most notable Mii is Mii Brawler, but he has very low kill potential w/o Helicopter Kick/Piston Punch, very weak recovery w/o Feint Jump. And the only reason he is banned from using these is because this mentality,

Either all of the characters should be able to use their custom moves, or none of them should be able to.

And not the main reasons they customs were disallowed
(heres stuff i already stated)

Spoiler

reasons TO's generally disallow Customs:

• Huge hassle getting all of them. (This reason is kinda lame)
  
• Limited slots (wastes time, actual legitimate reason for tournaments. They do run on a clock)

None of these apply to Mii Fighter.

And just for discreteness, they can just rewrite "No custom moves"(early on in the thread was argued over alot) to simply "Custom = off" to avoid confusion. You may use whatever available to you as long "customization is off" which should allows Miis and is pretty clear.
They originally didn't simply say "customization = off" and went with "no custom moves" because they purposefully wanted to keep Mii Fighter from his moves based on the mentality of

Either all of the characters should be able to use their custom moves, or none of them should be able to.

and not whether or not it is warranted. Miis ended up as colateral damage.

It isn't about whether or not their custom moves are broken

Since Miis dodge the reason Customs were not allowed in the first place, the only other grounds to ban them is if their customs are broken. So yes this is about whether or not their customs are broken.

Spoiler

Punk

Spoiler

JK, I don't mean to be mean, lel

See Play to Win, the bible for all thing competitive, "What should be banned," Which states that only broken tactics should be banned. Broken meaning there are no counter-tactics. Like being able to stall indefinitely to timeout using stuff like the luigi ladder. Since in the case of Miis is simply having access to more moves, none of which are broken. It does not warrant ban.

 

[Reaperfan]

The most notable Mii is Mii Brawler, but he has very low kill potential w/o Helicopter Kick/Piston Punch, very weak recovery w/o Feint Jump. And the only reason he is banned from using these is because this mentality,

I think it's safe to say that everyone realizes there are some characters who's viability drastically increases with custom moves. To say "we should allow custom moves only on these characters because they aren't good otherwise" opens up a ton of floodgates on other similar characters such as Palutena who are considered mostly non-viable without having access to their customs. "If Miis are allowed customs just so they can compete, why can't _________, who's also really bad without customs be allowed theirs?"

Regardless, most of this argument is starting to become invalid as "customs banned" tourneys are fading out now that enough time has passed for people to unlock custom moves as well as things like the Official Standard Custom Moveset Project making them more accessible from a TO's perspective. After all, banning customs was never about character balance (again, most people instantly realized customs being legal would be better for game balance), it was just about logistics since nobody had had time to unlock all the moves on a tournament scale.

On a personal level, if a tournament allows Miis but not custom moves, I feel it's only right to restrict Miis to their 1111 sets just like every other character. Allowing Brawler/Gunner/Swordfighter access to all of their options but restricting other characters just because the menus allow it is a little unfair and skews the balance of the "Customs: Off" meta.***

***As far as I'm concerned, "Customs: Off" and "Customs: On" are two entirely different metagames. They will evolve separate tier lists and strategies, and will vary drastically between the two. We need to decide which one we're talking about with Miis rather than try to blend the two arbitrarily by arguing semantics and menu options. I also believe we need to stop worrying about and putting so much emphasis on the "Customs: Off" meta since, as stated earlier, that is a dying breed and will likely become irrelevant here in a few months.

 

[Azazel]

I think it's safe to say that everyone realizes there are some characters who's viability drastically increases with custom moves. To say "we should allow custom moves only on these characters because they aren't good otherwise" opens up a ton of floodgates on other similar characters such as Palutena who are considered mostly non-viable without having access to their customs. "If Miis are allowed customs just so they can compete, why can't _________, who's also really bad without customs be allowed theirs?"

I think you may have missed the point i was trying to make. But then again the part you did quote was really pretty much a personal rant from me and did not necessarily need to be in there. Oops.

Regardless, most of this argument is starting to become invalid as "customs banned" tourneys are fading out now that enough time has passed for people to unlock custom moves as well as things like the Official Standard Custom Moveset Project making them more accessible from a TO's perspective. After all, banning customs was never about character balance (again, most people instantly realized customs being legal would be better for game balance), it was just about logistics since nobody had had time to unlock all the moves on a tournament scale.

Yes, exactly. The OSCM project was a wonderful idea and it's doing well. I think it's gonna work fine.
I knew of this, customs were allowed for 3ds because people could simply just have to bring their own sets, while the issue is more complicated for Wii U.

On a personal level, if a tournament allows Miis but not custom moves, I feel it's only right to restrict Miis to their 1111 sets just like every other character. Allowing Brawler/Gunner/Swordfighter access to all of their options but restricting other characters just because the menus allow it is a little unfair and skews the balance of the "Customs: Off" meta.***

Alright, your entiltled to your own personal opinions. I personally felt that Miis got mixed up with an issue that had nothing to do with them. Though when "customs on" really takes off the debate will die since Miis mains can just go there instead

***As far as I'm concerned, "Customs: Off" and "Customs: On" are two entirely different metagames. They will evolve separate tier lists and strategies, and will vary drastically between the two. We need to decide which one we're talking about with Miis rather than try to blend the two arbitrarily by arguing semantics and menu options. I also believe we need to stop worrying about and putting so much emphasis on the "Customs: Off" meta since, as stated earlier, that is a dying breed and will likely become irrelevant here in a few months.

Once customs on takes off, Customs off is so dead. I didn't really think of the idea if "customs off" lives it would become it's own thing. I think big tourneys will most likely be "customs on." If "custom off" somehow becomes the standard ruleset for big tourneys I'm a cry.

 

[Judo777]

Hey guys sorry to be a pain, and not post directly on the thread. Anyone know where Miis are being discussed (specifically height and weight being discussed as i want to contribute to that) I have had a hard time finding the right thread?

 

[T0MMY]

Looks like Apex 2015 showed exactly why their Mii limitation did NOT help anything.
In fact, it made matters worse in a number of ways - The metagame was stifled with this decision, matchup discussions are left without much data, many people are left wondering what brackets would have looked like with Mii included unadulterated.
Hopefully Apex will be the final ending to testing grounds for Mii fighters.

What did we learn?
Mii are NOT broken, Diddy Kong and Sheik in finals as expected - if a Mii swept through everyone and won 3-0 in grand finals that would have been an acceptable and exciting end to the tournament. At least it wasn't Diddy dittos though.

Mii do NOT have some kind of "advantage" for having two other special attacks to choose from. The 1-1-1-1 limit essentially nerfed the poor character into useless tier. Likewise any perceived "advantage" the Mii fighters have for being different height/weight is more a point of learning matchups. Expecting TO's to limit a character to make up for the lack of matchup knowledge on the competitor's end is a ridiculous expectation. Plz nerf ditty's up-air nxt cuz I just cant logic.

Mii do NOT interfere with the tournament to any reasonable degree. The amount of time it takes to upload a Mii is about as quick (or faster) then inputting a name with controls. Additionally, when you upload your Mii you can also sync your 3DS as a controller AND have your custom controls mapped simultaneously - at this point you don't even have to put in your name. Essentially saving more time than if you weren't using a Mii.

The vast majority of people do NOT want a Mii ban - the problem lies in asking the COMPETITORS if they want to ban/limit a potential threat. I think it's obvious most competitors do not use Mii, and most competitors will take any advantage they can get, so asking if they want to ban or limit a character they do not use results in an advantage - they will vote yes, but that is ANTICOMPETITIVE to give those players an advantage over the others whouse Mii. Outright violation of competitive principles!

All eyes on future tournaments to do the right thing for fair competition.
Looking at Evo to really set the standards here.

Here is the problem with your reasoning. The Mii Fighters during gameplay do not have any way of changing their stats like Shulk. When you create a Mii Fighter, the height and weight of the Mii used determines what the stats of the Mii Fighter are. In contrast, Shulk's Monado Arts are not permanent and the effects of each art are much stronger. Standardizing a Mii's height and weight doesn't mean that Shulk would be banned because of his Monado Arts. What does adapting have to do with this?

To sum this up, Shulk has "dynamic" stat changes (changes in time during the game) and Mii has "static" stat changes (changes before the game starts).
The problem you have with my reasoning is that there is a slight difference in "stat change" here.
Although it might be seen as a kind of a clever ruse to side-step the issue, this is starting to grasp at straws in that if a character is CAPABLE of change the player should ADAPT to this change instead of expecting to be given a win without earning it.

Regardless, my reasoning still holds when comparing to other characters even within the "static" stat changes. For instance Mario & Dr. Mario, Pit & Dark Pit, or even "gender" stats changing with Robin, Wii Fit Trainers, and the Villagers. Just because I can complain about something doesn't mean it should be changed to accommodate me - there always has to be sound competitive reasoning to any claim.

Right now banning or limiting any character because I refuse to adapt to how the game was designed is NOT reasonable. Just my take on it, and I think it answered your question very strongly, let me know if there's anything else that may be an issue.

I can't tell what the exact size of my opponent's Mii is.

Get better?

 

[Reaperfan]

I agree with most everything you have said here, with just one minor nitpick.

The 1-1-1-1 limit essentially nerfed the poor character into useless tier.

This is an argument that can be applied to many characters, not just Mii Fighters. The Palutena players, Villager players, Donkey Kong players, *insert character name who vastly benefits from custom moves here* players are all in the same situation we are, and I could potentially even argue the Palutena players are in a worse situation. It will be easier to convince the community at large to allow sets besides 1111 by finding a reasonable way to run tournaments with Customs on for everyone. If we try to single out Mii Fighters as an exception before that point, all it will seem like is us Mii players being all "special snowflake" and trying to exploit a loophole to get an advantage nobody else can have. By forcing this character specifically, we're alienating the rest of the playerbase. But the fight for Customs: On as a whole is something pretty much everyone can get behind, and still accomplishes our goals as Mii players.

 

[san.]

They are not the same since the game doesn't disallow their use with customs set to off. It's not us labeling them as special snowflakes, but the game itself.

 

[Reaperfan]

They are not the same since the game doesn't disallow their use with customs set to off. It's not us labeling them as special snowflakes, but the game itself.

Which is something that not everyone agrees on. Different standards and different perspectives have continuously shown that this particular arguing point does nothing for people who judge values of concepts like "what things are and aren't considered custom" based on different criteria. The people who don't believe that is a strong enough point is who will be calling us "special snowflakes," and those people exist. They exist all over these boards.

But we can get them on our side by also fighting for their right to custom move access rather than just our own. Fighting just for our own because it's slightly easier for our characters is not going to really get us anywhere without support from outside.

 

[san.]

Which is something that not everyone agrees on. Different standards and different perspectives have continuously shown that this particular arguing point does nothing for people who judge values of concepts like "what things are and aren't considered custom" based on different criteria. The people who don't believe that is a strong enough point is who will be calling us "special snowflakes," and those people exist. They exist all over these boards.

There's nothing to agree on when the game mandates what can and can't be used under customs off. People are arguing over the implementation of special rules and exceptions to the game's built in ones for no reason. For me, those are only required to get rid of any exploitation of the rules, such as Dave's Stupid Rule and the like.

But we can get them on our side by also fighting for their right to custom move access rather than just our own. Fighting just for our own because it's slightly easier for our characters is not going to really get us anywhere without support from outside.

I like customs, but I can't see these issues as anything but separate things. The only argument against letting the game run its course is that certain people don't like something that the game explicitly allows. To me, that makes little sense to supersede the game's restrictions.

 

[digiholic]

I'd just like to say that I think everyone should be allowed custom moves. APEX's rules were ludicrously backward.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

From the ruleset of the local I'm hosting tomorrow:

● Mii-Kämpfer in beliebige ausformulierung sind erlaubt. Falls Sie gerne im turnier mit Mii Fighters spielen würden, wäre es sehr nett wenn Sie dieses erstellen würden vor beginn des turniers!

Translation: you can use literally whatever Mii you want. If you want a specific Mii body type, please set it up on a few stations before the tournament starts.

As far as the logic here goes, I'm not particularly interested in discussing it. I'm using custom moves, I'm allowing small/thin miis, and that's all that needs to be said about that. No, I'm more into logistics. Now, custom moves is a logistical no-brainer. As DaPuffster pointed out, you're looking at 30-60 seconds, tops. If it takes longer, call a TO. But custom Miis... They take minute or two. This isn't a big deal at a small local like this where we're looking at something like 4-6 setups total, and at least someone is gonna have a 3DS. But how far can this scale? I mean, it's pretty obvious at this point that skinny/short is the way to play Mii Brawler. How could you handle issues like this in tournaments?

 

[Reaperfan]

There's nothing to agree on when the game mandates what can and can't be used under customs off. People are arguing over the implementation of special rules and exceptions to the game's built in ones for no reason. For me, those are only required to get rid of any exploitation of the rules, such as Dave's Stupid Rule and the like.

The fact of the matter is that the argument and disagreement exist, regardless of how simple you think it is. You're not going to win those people over just by saying the same thing to them over and over and they're going to see it as character favoritism. Avoiding that hostility seems to me to be the better course of action in getting to fully-realized Miis, regardless of who's logic is more sound.

I like customs, but I can't see these issues as anything but separate things. The only argument against letting the game run its course is that certain people don't like something that the game explicitly allows. To me, that makes little sense to supersede the game's restrictions.

Different values and perspectives. Just because you see Mii Fighters' 2 and 3 moves as default moves doesn't mean others agree. To other people, all 2 and 3 moves on any and every character are custom moves, and you won't convince them otherwise. Rather than picking fights with these people over idealogical differences and definitions, it seems more efficient to me to work together for the next step beyond that both sides are ultimately after. All we're doing by pushing for anything else earlier is creating animosity and hostility without actually getting anything done.

Maybe rather than try and change their mind about "what is custom or not," just try arguing that allowing Miis custom moves could work as an experimental step in the potential of custom moves. Allow Miis their customs not because "the menus allow it" or "they have access to them right away." Allow them their customs because they're easy to implement and can work as a launching point in showing how much a character can improve with them. Don't say that Miis should be allowed them just because they're there. Allow them as a stepping stone to kickstart other people into wanting more strongly for their moves to be allowed. Allowing Miis their 2 and 3 moves isn't just about Miis. It's about every character, and we need to try and bring that across more clearly.

 

[T0MMY]

Don't make it out like San is trying to pick a fight about idealogical differences.
He simply pointed out objectively how the game functions.

Trying to use Mii as a bargaining tool to get Custom Moves used is one of those things that's making the "Custom Movement" more difficult for TO's to take seriously.

 

[Reaperfan]

Don't make it out like San is trying to pick a fight about idealogical differences.
He simply pointed out objectively how the game functions.

Trying to use Mii as a bargaining tool to get Custom Moves used is one of those things that's making the "Custom Movement" more difficult for TO's to take seriously.

He's not trying to. But to people that don't agree with him, he is. That's how the internet works; a never-ending cycle of misunderstandings. No matter how simple you think it is, there are people out there who feel Miis being able to use their 2 and 3 moves even with the Customs button turned off is not enough to justify them being allowed in a setting where all other characters are restricted to #1 moves only.

That's the ideological difference. You think that's enough, they don't. They'll need more convincing than "the Custom button allows it" that none of the proponents of that ideology are providing. You're just repeating yourselves without providing enough information to convince the other side.

As for the last point, I'll simply ask a few questions for elaboration. How, specifically, does the "just let the Miis try it out for experimentation" approach invalidate the pro-Customs movement on an organizational level? If that's not a good enough jumping-off point, what would you propose be the approach in "selling" people on the idea, assuming they are against it both ideologically and organizationally?

 

[DavemanCozy]

While I'm still iffy on the whole weight and height adjustments:

After Apex and hearing numerous sides, I think that the Miis deserve to use their alternate moves, customs on or off. I don't think this argument about "it's not fair for other characters" is fair considering that you both have access to all the tools, customs off don't disallow the Miis from choosing their moves, and the Miis don't really gain gross advantages that break them, even the optimal Brawler still loses to default Sheik (imo).

Seeing all the speculation around them, I think the best way to allow Miis with their full potential is to allow each of their tools one step at a time. For example, start them off with just their moves available. Something like the following to allow Miis in a tournament:
- Customs off
- Default height/weight Guest Miis
- They may use whichever combination of moves

This way, you're only introducing one factor (being the alternate moves) into the meta without erupting too many cries of "gimmicky" or "broken." Eventually as more and more people get used to their alternate special moves, maybe then they'll start warming up to allowing different weights and heights.

I'm going to run this proposal over with the organizers in my area. I think I'll also start a discussion about this with TO Joe and Blacktwins.

 

[mega4000]

There's nothing to agree on when the game mandates what can and can't be used under customs off. People are arguing over the implementation of special rules and exceptions to the game's built in ones for no reason. For me, those are only required to get rid of any exploitation of the rules, such as Dave's Stupid Rule and the like.



I like customs, but I can't see these issues as anything but separate things. The only argument against letting the game run its course is that certain people don't like something that the game explicitly allows. To me, that makes little sense to supersede the game's restrictions.

quoting you just to remind you that the guy above you is right and I'm one of the persons that will do anything to not let miis get outside their 1111 unless custom ON is allowed. You can still keep thinking everything you want, but when the moment of true happens and evo or another important tournament is near, I'm gonna be right there with a lot of more people rejecting custom miis. Remember that.

 

[san.]

I accept "because the TO says " more than any odd justification behind it. It heavily affects my willingness to travel, however.

 

[T0MMY]

He's not trying to. But to people that don't agree with him, he is.

People can think he's selling cream puffs and unicorns for all anyone cares. This is why reason exists - there's a lot of opinion out there but reason is what makes a change.

Customs button turned off is not enough to justify them being allowed in a setting where all other characters are restricted to #1 moves only.

See, there's the faulty reasoning: This is falsely stating that the standard in competition is to have characters banned until justified to be "allowed".

Hogwash.

Competitive standard has all characters used to their fullest potential unless a reasonable argument can provide evidence to meet a ban criteria.

Anyone saying the contrary will have to provide proof against something this long-standing and solid or they will just have to stay in their casual circle and leave the real competition to the competitive players.

Very simple.

How, specifically, does the "just let the Miis try it out for experimentation" approach invalidate the pro-Customs movement on an organizational level?

Re-read what I said: It had nothing to do with "try Mii out for experiment".
I said using the Mii as a bargaining tool for Custom Moves is laudable. Trying to take something away from people in order to get them on your side of an argument for a kind of might-makes-right tactic is an embarrassment to the community. Not saying everyone who offers alternative rules regarding Mii is doing this - but this applies to those who are trying to hold the Mii for some ransom scheme that will never work.

what would you propose be the approach in "selling" people on the idea, assuming they are against it both ideologically and organizationally?

Selling the idea of Custom Moves?
Run events that use Custom Fighter: ON - if it's as good as people try to make it out to be then it should be a roaring success. If it flops, then get over it and either quit playing if it means that much or play and enjoy what there is to be offered.

Seeing all the speculation around them, I think the best way to allow Miis with their full potential is to allow each of their tools one step at a time.

Although I disagree with an arbitrary opinion on the default height/weight (out-of-game bans/limits need reason to be imposed in tournaments otherwise it's "scrubby"), I agree with the rest of your post. And if it takes baby steps for some people then so be it.

It's not the Mii that are the problem, it's really the vocal minority that is stirring up problems like usual.
I'd suggest instead of the baby step, simply stick to competitive guns about it and implement the best rule not being widely used: "Play the game".
The "Play the game" rule is simply saying no out-of-game rulings are used unless necessary - people end up just playing and having fun (those who complain usually don't show up or do not come back even if their complaints are addressed because they are complainers who will find something to be unhappy about - let them go and everyone else can have fun).

quoting you just to remind you that the guy above you is right and I'm one of the persons that will do anything to not let miis get outside their 1111 unless custom ON is allowed.

What is your reason for the out-of-game 1111 ruling you are supporting?

 

[Reaperfan]

See, there's the faulty reasoning: This is falsely stating that the standard in competition is to have characters banned until justified to be "allowed".

H...how did you possibly get this from what I said? How is that reasoning an example of...whatever logic you're trying to say I said was? I'm genuinely confused now how you got to this train of mind.

Re-read what I said: It had nothing to do with "try Mii out for experiment".
I said using the Mii as a bargaining tool for Custom Moves is laudable. Trying to take something away from people in order to get them on your side of an argument for a kind of might-makes-right tactic is an embarrassment to the community. Not saying everyone who offers alternative rules regarding Mii is doing this - but this applies to those who are trying to hold the Mii for some ransom scheme that will never work.

This just shows you ignored my initial point, but I'll ignore that myself for now. Who's holding them ransom? As far as anything I said I just advocated allowing Miis the freedom in Customs: Off tournaments to have access to their 2 and 3 moves. The difference being I see it as a way to move forward towards a Customs: On format, whereas I can only imply so far that you are against that and/or just don't believe it will ever happen.

What is your reason for the out-of-game 1111 ruling you are supporting?

I know it wasn't directed at me, but I'll attempt to answer for perspective's sake.

1. It gives Mii Fighters options other characters don't have, even though other characters need those options for the same reasons as Mii Fighters.
2. If you do the minimum number of steps to make a playable Mii Fighter and choose not to alter any of its customizable options, that particular Mii Fighter will have its moveset at 1111. This makes its 1 moves "default" and all others "custom."

EDIT: For some reason it removed my response here from my initial post:

Selling the idea of Custom Moves?
Run events that use Custom Fighter: ON - if it's as good as people try to make it out to be then it should be a roaring success. If it flops, then get over it and either quit playing if it means that much or play and enjoy what there is to be offered.

Unfortunately, not all of us are in a position to run tournaments. Even fewer of us are in a position to have the turnout and/or results of that tournament have any impact on a community-wide scale. While your advice isn't incorrect, it's impractical for a majority of the people to actually execute on. And again, why the hostility? We all want Mii Fighters to have access to their custom moves, we just think there are different avenues in which to pursue that.

 

[T0MMY]

H...how did you possibly get this from what I said?

Maybe you missed the quote I responded to.
Let me display it again:

Customs button turned off is not enough to justify them being allowed in a setting where all other characters are restricted to #1 moves only.

You said that turning Customs off is not enough to justify them being allowed.
Right from the start that is making the assumption that a character is guilty until proven innocent and needs a reason to be allowed rather than the competitive standard of the contrary.

We are thinking in two different directions here. And let me remind you that we are in the Competitive Discussion board, so I'd reckon we should be speaking on terms of competitive standards (no bans unless criteria is met).

This just shows you ignored my initial point

Don't agree it does.

As far as anything I said I just advocated allowing Miis the freedom in Customs: Off tournaments to have access to their 2 and 3 moves.

Cool, but we shouldn't be "allowing" characters to function correctly in a competitive sense. There's no "allowance", simply exploit the software to its limits and reward the player who wins in a fair fight. I think that's phrased more aptly, but just imo.

The difference being I see it as a way to move forward towards a Customs: On format, whereas I can only imply so far that you are against that and/or just don't believe it will ever happen.

I'm not against Customs, but I don't really have faith it's going to happen on a national scale the way the pro-custom movement is handling things.
I feel the same way I did with the Meta Knight ban - I was in support of a ban but completely face-palmed at the way the pro-ban was handling it and knew it would blow up in their faces. The way the pro-ban movement is puffing up its chest saying it's going to be the new standard the more it's going to destroy them. Hubris I s'pose.

I know it wasn't directed at me, but I'll attempt to answer for perspective's sake.

I asked him because I thought he might have had a good reason for it, all the reasons posted prior have been just a matter of opinion and makes no competitive sense. I'm always open for something that might changethat though.

1. It gives Mii Fighters options other characters don't have, even though other characters need those options for the same reasons as Mii Fighters.

All characters have different options. This reason entails all characters get banned. Not reasonable.

2. If you do the minimum number of steps to make a playable Mii Fighter and choose not to alter any of its customizable options, that particular Mii Fighter will have its moveset at 1111. This makes its 1 moves "default" and all others "custom."

This arbitrary "default" ruling would reasonably extend to limit Robin to being "default" gender male, Wii Fit Trainer to being "default" female, and no costume changes meaning we don't get partyhat Pikachu and naked Shulk.
Or we just stick with competitive standard and play the game without arbitrary out-of-game limitations like scrubs do.

Easy to see the stronger solution there.

Unfortunately, not all of us are in a position to run tournaments.

I'm sure leaving it to the guys who do run tournaments is a better option then having the movement shoot itself in the foot.

And again, why the hostility?

Where?

We all want Mii Fighters to have access to their custom moves

I don't speak for everyone. Not sure why you did there, just weakens the statement.
But I will state again how Mii does not appear to have custom moves.

I Customs button turned off is not enough to justify them being allowed in a setting where all other characters are restricted to #1 moves only.

Oh, there you go again, silly. Starting off with guilty until proven innocent X^]
(points at where we are discussing this in the Competitive Discussion board)

we just think there are different avenues in which to pursue that.

Is there not a Casual Discussion board anywhere?
I think I see an issue that needs to be addressed on SWF.

 

[PKBeam]

So:

• Miis should be able to use all of their specials
• Everyone else is limited to 1111
• Justified as being fair because the game said so

I don't get it. I think I'm missing something.
Someone explain to me why we're suddenly listening to the game's definitions?
I'm just going to wait until that plan to integrate customs into competitive play succeeds.

 

[Phase 2]

As opposed to listening to who else's definition of fair? Why should the game not be the authority? Especially when it makes 1-2 new characters potentially viable and causes no problems other than violating some arbitrary, subjective concept of "fairness" some players have created. This concept of "fairness" is discussed at length in the original post. It literally harms no one to allow this and is good for the metagame at large. You're not missing anything with those 3 bullet points there. That is the only solid argument I've seen in this thread whether it be for or against Miis. I'm a reasonable guy, if someone had a valid reason other than "it's not fair" or "because I said so" I'd be all ears.

 

[Reaperfan]

It literally harms no one to allow this and is good for the metagame at large.

It harms the Palutena players.

You said that turning Customs off is not enough to justify them being allowed.
Right from the start that is making the assumption that a character is guilty until proven innocent and needs a reason to be allowed rather than the competitive standard of the contrary.

Because, to some people, the Miis 2 and 3 moves are considered custom moves. Doesn't make sense to allow custom moves in a meta game designed around custom moves not being used.

Don't agree it does.

My original point was to use an alternate talking point to push for Miis 2 and 3 moves legality, my example being "let them try it out for experimentation." To which you respond with something you openly admit was said to have nothing to do with the "let them try it out for experimentation" line of thought. I'm going to call that "ignoring the original point."

Cool, but we shouldn't be "allowing" characters to function correctly in a competitive sense. There's no "allowance", simply exploit the software to its limits and reward the player who wins in a fair fight. I think that's phrased more aptly, but just imo.

The "allowance" is applying an exception to the rules. The rules being "in a Customs: Off tournament, characters cannot use their custom moves." But, again, this comes down to whether you believe Miis have custom moves at all. In which case this particular argument point becomes unresolvable.

I'm not against Customs, but I don't really have faith it's going to happen on a national scale the way the pro-custom movement is handling things.
I feel the same way I did with the Meta Knight ban - I was in support of a ban but completely face-palmed at the way the pro-ban was handling it and knew it would blow up in their faces.

If you were in support of it, why not help it out? Especially if you saw it going in a direction you knew would fail and were in a position to do something about it? It still doesn't sound like you believe Customs: On is worthwhile ('not against' is different than 'I support') but the logic of "it's doomed to fail so why bother" I just don't like. You miss 100% of the shots you don't take.

I asked him because I thought he might have had a good reason for it, all the reasons posted prior have been just a matter of opinion and makes no competitive sense. I'm always open for something that might changethat though.

Because everything at this point is a matter of opinion. "Competitive sense" isn't uniform across the community, and those slight differences are what are causing these arguments, with those differences being our opinions.

All characters have different options. This reason entails all characters get banned. Not reasonable.

Not all characters have different options concerning custom move choice in a Customs: Off setting.

This arbitrary "default" ruling would reasonably extend to limit Robin to being "default" gender male, Wii Fit Trainer to being "default" female, and no costume changes meaning we don't get partyhat Pikachu and naked Shulk.
Or we just stick with competitive standard and play the game without arbitrary out-of-game limitations like scrubs do.

The difference being if we banned those things it wouldn't affect how the game was played at all. The ban would do absolutely nothing, and so there's no reason to enforce it. Unlike with allowing custom moves for a particular character in a Customs: Off setting.

Easy to see the stronger solution there.

It really isn't, otherwise this entire argument wouldn't exist at all.

I'm sure leaving it to the guys who do run tournaments is a better option then having the movement shoot itself in the foot.

The point of the movement is to get the ideas to people in positions who can run tournaments. If we can't do it ourselves, band together and show there's support for it so that people in better positions may be willing to listen to us. Again, if nobody does anything then nothing will ever change. Even if the extent of my "power" is the ability to express an opinion in a public forum, then I'll do that rather than do nothing.

Where?

I'll admit, tone is difficult to convey in a purely text-based communication format. But ultimately your arguments are very inflexible and close-minded, not presenting any new information beyond what we all have available to us and quoting Sirlin as if he were absolute law, then just shutting down anything that doesn't fit within those parameters as if it has no merit.

I don't speak for everyone. Not sure why you did there, just weakens the statement.
But I will state again how Mii does not appear to have custom moves.

"We all" was meant more in the manner of "we all who are participating in this discussion right now" sense rather than an absolute. I apologize for the vague wording choice. As for the "customs or not," I will state again that, whether you believe so or not, that is and has consistently been shown to be a matter of opinion.

Oh, there you go again, silly. Starting off with guilty until proven innocent X^]
(points at where we are discussing this in the Competitive Discussion board)

Is there not a Casual Discussion board anywhere?
I think I see an issue that needs to be addressed on SWF.

Oh wait. There's that hostility. I think it's best we avoid calling others "casual" lest this devolve into personal attacks and mudslinging rather than sticking to the discussion topic at hand.

 

[DavemanCozy]

By that logic, Diddy getting to use the best moveset in the game, yet Shulk getting left behind is unfair.

It's ridiculous. I have the same access to playing Diddy and learning the MU as much as my opponent does against my character. Arbitrarily banning things because we're scared of them is what is unfair.

Even if you allow the Miis to use their other specials, the optimal Brawler Puffster uses (1122) is far from being broken in the default meta.

Japanese tournaments are letting their players use whatever Mii movesets they want, and yet we still see Sheik, ZSS and Diddy placing much higher overall anyways. In fact, including both the Wii U and 3DS tournaments, only one tournament has been won by a Brawler.
http://smashboards.com/threads/japanese-results.384685/

Don't know the MU? Learn it.

 

[ChronoPenguin]

You don't ban things over semantics.

 

[Yikarur]

why don't people just accept that restricting Mii to a specific moveset is arbitrary and doesn't help the game at all?

- Considering 1111 as default is arbitrary. You are creating the Moveset with the Mii, the character has no default.
- Mii's are completely playable under "Custom: off" so using 1111 only BANS the other moves. You don't ban what's not broken.

Default Mii + any move should be at least the standard.
You can argue about the size/width because thats more complicated. I wish the game had an in-game option to choose the size/width.. Sakurai, y u make things so hard?
Because I'm in favor of adding as much to the game as possible I created a 3DS transfer rule for german tournaments. That's not a perfect solution but the best you can get. Japan does it like this as well.

Another idea I got is to create 9 Miis on the WiiU in advance so everyone can just create any Mii. Can someone confirm that you only have 9 combinations for Smash?

 

[PKBeam]

ugh...
let me post one more thing.
(I will not say what I really feel about this whole situation)

Firstly, Miis' defaults are 1111 because if you make a Mii and back out then it gives them 1111.
(Yes, that also means that Robin's default gender is male and Mario's default skin is #1)
There's that done.

Secondly.
Miis having customs is unfair because while everyone else is limited to 1111, they have all 12 customs.
The unfairness, for those mentally slow/impaired, is that Miis get to use more moves (no-one cares about what those are or how good they are)

Whether it harms anyone or not is irrelevant (and it certainly harms the 40+ characters that don't get to use their customs).
Miis still have an unfair advantage.

No, ignore the Miis-using-specials-with-Customs-Off bull****.
We can change rules. Why else are we not using the 2 min default in Smash and why else is our stagelist is not pressing the X button?

Also, ignore that guy who made that analogy to Diddy and Shulk's movesets.
They both have the same number of moves, both without access to customs.
Different to Miis and other characters.

Finally.
For all those people screaming about how it makes them viable, there are many other things that would make many characters viable, but we don't use them, do we?

You want it straight?
> Miis get all their specials.
> Everyone else is stuck with 1111.
This is unfair.
What you see is what you get, and no amount of loophole finding, technical arguing and will change that.

Pretty much this entire pro-custom argument is based around
1. Miis being able to use all their specials with customs off.
2. It makes them better.
3. It's not broken so don't ban it.

fcol if you want Miis to use their customs, why aren't you helping everyone else get their customs (so you can too) instead of debating something that's probably going to be irrelevant in a few months. And if you are, then why are you posting in this thread?!

Spoiler: Simples!

 

[Yikarur]

Blame Sakurai. We don't arbitrarily ban things and we shouldn't.
We play with custom off because it's impossible to play with them on logistically. NO ONE disagrees that Custom Moves should absolutely be allowed if they didn't have a logistical problem.
So the Rule we use is "Custom: off".
You can play the Mii as you created it. It has 1111 selected at first but thats because the selection cannot be empty. Saying 1111 is their default when they don't even exist without creating one is completely irrational.
And because you can use the other moves with custom offs there are only two logical solutions:
- Ban Miis completely
- allow them with all moves

everything else is arbitrary.

everyone insiting on them using 1111 only is just jealous that they can't use their characters customs. If thats your problem: try to convince your region to play under Amazing Ampharos Standard Custom Ruleset. I'd appreciate it !

 

[Jigglymaster]

ugh...
let me post one more thing.
(I will not say what I really feel about this whole situation)

Firstly, Miis' defaults are 1111 because if you make a Mii and back out then it gives them 1111.
There's that done.

Secondly.
Miis having customs is unfair because while everyone else is limited to 1111, they have all 12 customs.
The unfairness, for those mentally slow/impaired, is that Miis get to use more moves (no-one cares about what those are or how good they are)

Whether it harms anyone or not is irrelevant (and it certainly harms the 40+ characters that don't get to use their customs).
Miis still have an unfair advantage.

No, ignore the Miis-using-specials-with-Customs-Off bull****.
We can change rules. Why else are we not using the 2 min default in Smash and why else is our stagelist is not pressing the X button?

Also, ignore that guy who made that analogy to Diddy and Shulk's movesets.
They both have the same number of moves, both without access to customs, very much a different thing to Miis having all 12 specials.

You want it straight?
> Miis get all their specials.
> Everyone else is stuck with 1111.
This is unfair.
What you see is what you get, and no amount of loophole finding, technical arguing and will change that.

fcol if you want Miis to use their customs, WHY AREN'T YOU HELPING THE PEOPLE WHO WANT TO INTEGRATE CUSTOMS INTO TOURNAMENTS instead of debating something that's probably going to be irrelevant in a few months. And if you are, then why are you posting in this thread?!

Unfair or not, you're harming the community because people like you are constantly grabbing our legs and pulling us down with you. As of right now customs are still facing logistic issues and the Mii Fighters have no business in that.

At least with them allowed that would be more incentive to get the rest of them legal.

My POV

- People want custom moves
- Can't because of Logistics
- Mii Fighters bypass the logistics issue

Therefore we should allow them to use customs because they are the only easy ones to have access to and we as a community want custom moves.

 

[DavemanCozy]

I still don't understand how it's "unfair." Don't we all have access to try all their moves and play them with customs off? Or am I one of the chosen privileged?

Since when has Smash been about making it fair for every character anyways? I must've been duped when I bought my Brawl copy and picked Sheik as my main. I guess it's not fair for her there then.

 

[warriorman222]

So:

• Miis should be able to use all of their specials
• Everyone else is limited to 1111
• Justified as being fair because the game said so

I don't get it. I think I'm missing something.
Someone explain to me why we're suddenly listening to the game's definitions?
I'm just going to wait until that plan to integrate customs into competitive play succeeds.

Is something innocent until proven guilty, or guilty till innocent? In real law, it's innocent until guilty. When someone is discussed to be banned irl, it's innocent till guilty. Even shrooms, weed and guns were assumed to be innocent until overwhelming evidence proved guilty. And usually in those cases, sources recommend NOT allowing it. In this case, The game itself allows it, there is no overwhelming evidence against it and it is lawfully recommended to do innocent until guilty. Therefore, it's justified because the game said so, until you prove it guilty. We don't need to prove anything with the game on our side... yet you are forcing us to. With that, anyone who is forcing anyone to have to defend 2222 & 3333, or you know, any Mii customs at all is at fault. especially when the ban is kinda discreet, barely enforceable, and most definitely not warranted. Plus allowing even 2222 brings a new top tier into play, potentially saving the scene from Diddy saturation or Brawl ruin, yet the amount of people (Not you) not willing to even consider 2222 and 3333 are incredible.

NO offense meant then or now. But if this adds variety, is lawfully recommended, does not warrant a ban, and could possibly save the meta, I don't see why not. But I am prepared to be crucified by people with better legislative, competitive and moral knowledge than me.

 

[T0MMY]

I don't get it. I think I'm missing something.
Someone explain to me why we're suddenly listening to the game's definitions?
I'm just going to wait until that plan to integrate customs into competitive play succeeds.

You're making an assumption that everyone is "suddenly" listening to game definitions (I understand you as saying "game functionality" instead of "definitions" as that could mean something else). The "suddenly" is in quotes to signify that this is where the assumption has gone awry:
Competition rewards the best player based on skill, not rewarding a player based on arbitrary rules. Competitively, a game is played to its potential (without out-of-game limitations) - this is kind of natural and unavoidable as we cannot reasonably be expected to just "know" what a new game is going to function like before playing it.

Hence this is what is known as a principle of competition - software authority.

This is not to say there is no room for modification
Out-of-game rulings can be reasonably used to modify gameplay in competition - but there is criteria to be met in order to do so (evidence is always needed to reasonably support any claim). Without reasonable evidence for ban/limit/restrictions then it is not considered competitive and should contrarily be recognized as "scrubby" (i.e. not competitive).

Hope this helps to understand the competitive side of things - this is the competitive rules discussion board, outside of competitive rules pretty much anything goes as long as your friends are ok with it.

It harms the Palutena players.

I don't see reason behind this.

Because, to some people, the Miis 2 and 3 moves are considered custom moves. Doesn't make sense to allow custom moves in a meta game designed around custom moves not being used.

If special moves 2 & 3 are considered custom moves then it can be demonstrated that special move 1 is also a custom move and every character should not be allowed to use any special movies.
This is probably illustrative of San's statement that we don't ban things based on semantics - because it doesn't make sense.

Spoiler

I'm going to call that "ignoring the original point."

Playing with semantics beyond just the Mii now.
Call it what you will, but I don't agree with it.

But, again, this comes down to whether you believe Miis have custom moves at all. In which case this particular argument point becomes unresolvable.

I disagree that it comes down to whether one believes they are custom moves or not - The Competitive Principle of Software Authority trumps any one persons' arbitrary opinion on how they may think the rest of us should play the game.

If you were in support of it, why not help it out?

Because I don't think the ends justify the means. Abducting someone to hold for ransom is not something I would do even if it was for a good cause. The saying "two wrongs don't make a right" comes into play here.

Because everything at this point is a matter of opinion. "Competitive sense" isn't uniform across the community, and those slight differences are what are causing these arguments, with those differences being our opinions.

This is why opinions that are grounded reasonably in Competitive Standard is going to be seen as stronger - because it's not just "mere opinion" it is grounded in something we consider self-evident.
Anyone who believes in the right of principles such as Fairness, Software Authority, and Reward to Skill is going to reject mere opinion and accept the grounded opinion as "right" (meaning "ruled" because it can be measured to principles that create the notion of competition itself). Anything that rejects these core principles of competition are essentially turning their back on the competitive community and belong in a casual scene - nothing wrong with that, but very distinct areas of player interaction!

Not all characters have different options concerning custom move choice in a Customs: Off setting.

This seems like a red herring argument.
/razor

The difference being if we banned those things it wouldn't affect how the game was played at all.

I disagree - I, like many nerds, am afraid of girls and anyone choosing female Robin, Wii Fit Trainer, or Villager has an advantage due to my nervous demeanor.
So the argument still stands.

It really isn't, otherwise this entire argument wouldn't exist at all.
Keep working on it then, you'll eventually catch up.

The point of the movement is to get the ideas to people in positions who can run tournaments.

Good luck with that.
Just watch out you don't contribute to shooting the movement in the foot.

But ultimately your arguments are very inflexible and close-minded

Inflexible due to STRENGTH
Some may choose to see it as closed-minded when it's really very DECISIVE based on PROOFS.
Your choice how to see it, my perception may differ.
But I would suggest going beyond trying to poison the wells or relying on ad hominems because from that is the stuff mere opinion is built. Remember how people are naturally accepting of strong-grounded reason vs mere opinion?

"We all" was meant more in the manner of "we all who are participating in this discussion right now" sense rather than an absolute. I apologize for the vague wording choice. As for the "customs or not," I will state again that, whether you believe so or not, that is and has consistently been shown to be a matter of opinion.

I'd suggest not speaking a plural because it could come off to those openly reading that you are trying to be a vocal minority - small in number who try to make up for the lack of popularity with louder voice. Usually seen as a waker side of argument.
But, again, matter of opinion is still a matter of reason - who's opinion is stronger? If we must decide we should decide on the best conclusion.

Oh wait. There's that hostility. I think it's best we avoid calling others "casual" lest this devolve into personal attacks and mudslinging rather than sticking to the discussion topic at hand.

I don't share your opinion that using the word "casual" to describe "casual" as "casual" is hostile - it's using the word correctly. Most casual players do not care they are called casual the same way most competitive players don't mind being called competitive.
If you disagree with ths feel free to contact a mod and flag my post.

 

[PKBeam]

ok, so you don't care about whether it's unfair or not
as long as it's not MK than it's legal
...
yeah, not going to bother
have fun with your better low/mid tier matchups, Miis