Competitive Principles: Mii

[MegaMissingno]

People are debating banning Mii Fighters. The game has been out on Wii U for not even a month, and were already talking character bans. That's just absurd, because nobody has had time to test these things in a real competitive environment. This is talking about banning 3 unique characters from the game because somebody somewhere got OIP'd and got super salty about it. That's just crazy, since we currently have no real defined meta for this game yet.

Wait, who ever said anything about banning them altogether? I've only ever heard anyone argue for defaults only, never a full ban.

Also, people keep saying the Mii Fighters have custom moves. While it uses the same custom moves menu that other fighters do, these are not custom moves. Lets compare Samus and the Mii Fighters, for example.

Samus has 4 B-moves, like every other character. Her customs give her a variation of one move. Her side b, for example, will always fire missiles. The custom affects how those missiles behave. The same can be said for all of her custom moves, as well as the entire rest of the cast. The moves are not totally unique, except for Mii Fighters, and Palutena.

For Mii Fighters as well as Palutena, these moves are completely unique. They have unique behavior, knockback, momentum, and animations. Phase 2 said it best.

You're just arguing semantics. So does this also mean that a ruleset declaring everyone else only gets 1111 has to grant a special exemption for Palutena too? Is Mega Man allowed to use Hyper Bomb, Danger Wrap, and Beat since they're deemed different enough, but not his other moves because they're too similar?

The point of a no-customs ruleset is to keep everyone on defaults. 1111 only. The rules should apply to everyone, either they all get their moves or nobody does. Having certain characters that can while everyone else can't just gives them an unfair advantage as they can be modified for any matchup, yet their opponents can't do that. And the fact that their moves are more different just makes that a bigger deal. That's a reason not to make them above the rules.

 

[Phase 2]

So by that logic is it then unfair to switch to another character when you lose to improve your matchup? That constitutes a much bigger change than swapping a move on your Mii, and I really can't imagine a situation where changing a move around would greatly affect a matchup, you're welcome to suggest some though. They are only really viable with 1-2 different setups anyway. Gunner is meh and Swordfighter struggles to both build percent and kill. Brawler, the only Mii fighter that has shown some competitive promise so far, is pretty gimped without Feint Jump to supplement his recovery and an alternate Up Special to close out stocks. I wouldn't expect to see people going back to the menu to change their moveset after losing either. That'd just be ridiculous.

Let me be clear, my argument is that Miis ARE in fact a special exception to a no customs ruleset. Customization is far more integral to their design than any other character. They are literally the perfect realization of the Create-A-Fighter idea. The exception Sakurai made for them under the Customization: Off restriction only supports my feelings about the issue.

 

[MegaMissingno]

It's unfair to have one character who can do it when others can't. Either everyone can or nobody can, there shouldn't be any in between where just a few characters get special treatment.

Authorial intent is not a compelling argument. If I cared what Sakurai thinks, I'd play 2 minute timed FFAs with items on. And you didn't answer my question about Palutena, who customization is also integral to. Or Mega Man if we continue down that road.

 

[Phase 2]

That wasn't my post but I'll give my thoughts. I'm personally 100% in favor of customs being legal on all characters, right now would be best, utilizing the 3DS ability to transfer characters one can port over their chosen custom set. The earlier we do it, the faster people can begin to learn what each new move does and we can see if some are so truly busted as to be banned or perhaps even if customs negatively affect the game so much as to ban them permanently. I'm just saying we won't know until we try and the trend now is towards them never seeing the light of day in a competitive setting.

As far as the idea with Palutena and Mega Man goes, its really a moot point because until you hit the switch in the corner to turn customization on, the only characters that can use special movesets are the Miis. We can agree to disagree on whether they should be able to use them I suppose. I will, however, continue to espouse Sakurai's intent, because frankly it should trump your personal opinion and since none of the Miis are anything more than mediocre to bad without certain alternate moves (Mii Gunner becoming one of the worst in game without the grenade to cover his aerial shenanigans, probably right next to Swordfighter on the list of worst characters), its in the interest of anyone who would ever want to play them competitively for them to be the one exception as per Sakurai's design.

 

[SamusChief]

It's unfair to have one character who can do it when others can't. Either everyone can or nobody can, there shouldn't be any in between where just a few characters get special treatment.

No, This is what I was saying with the whole customs vs creative style differences. Everybody else just has variations of their other customs, with Mii Fighters, the different weights and heights in addition to the fact that each custom is just WAY different than the others in its class, mean that each Mii is unique, and each one has their own interesting variations.

Banning these different ones doesn't make sense when they haven't been fully realized in a competitive setting.

I don't even treat Mii Fighter as being just 3 unique characters; I view them as a whole section of fighter where each variation has potential as a character in and of themselves. Unfortunately, because they have been banned at all the tournaments near me, I have not been shown any evidence to the contrary. It upsets me that so many TOs seem to just ban them outright under the 'no customs' rule (which makes sense until people consistently unlock all the customs for tournament setups) but Miis get all customs on by default.

Authorial intent is not a compelling argument. If I cared what Sakurai thinks, I'd play 2 minute timed FFAs with items on. And you didn't answer my question about Palutena, who customization is also integral to. Or Mega Man if we continue down that road.

It absolutely is a compelling argument. It is more important than any of our conjecture; it shows that the people who made this game have deemed that it should be usable in a more serious setting. Lets not forget that this game was designed with both our crowd, and the casual crowds in mind. The E3 Invitational more than proved that. If the designers feel the feature should be used in this type of setting, why shouldn't we AT LEAST test that before we get all salty about one advanced technique which happens to be super situational.

 

[LimitCrown]

No, This is what I was saying with the whole customs vs creative style differences. Everybody else just has variations of their other customs, with Mii Fighters, the different weights and heights in addition to the fact that each custom is just WAY different than the others in its class, mean that each Mii is unique, and each one has their own interesting variations.

Banning these different ones doesn't make sense when they haven't been fully realized in a competitive setting.

I don't even treat Mii Fighter as being just 3 unique characters; I view them as a whole section of fighter where each variation has potential as a character in and of themselves. Unfortunately, because they have been banned at all the tournaments near me, I have not been shown any evidence to the contrary. It upsets me that so many TOs seem to just ban them outright under the 'no customs' rule (which makes sense until people consistently unlock all the customs for tournament setups) but Miis get all customs on by default.

Even though each Mii Fighter' special move options are very different from each other, the ones that aren't the defaults are considered to be the customization options which is like Palutena. Since the limit of the amount of Mii Fighters that you can make is much higher the the limit of the amount of customizations for each of the other characters and you can make many Mii Fighters with the same appearance but with different custom moves, it would be more convenient to let the Mii Fighters use their custom moves at any point in Smash. Also, any Mii with the default height and weight can be considered to be the baseline for the Mii Fighters' stats.
The game considers the Brawler, Gunner, and Swordfighter to be separate characters. I think that the Mii Fighters shouldn't be banned from tournaments that don't allow custom moves because you can just use Guest Miis to make the Mii Fighters and just use the default special moves like everyone else

It absolutely is a compelling argument. It is more important than any of our conjecture; it shows that the people who made this game have deemed that it should be usable in a more serious setting. Lets not forget that this game was designed with both our crowd, and the casual crowds in mind. The E3 Invitational more than proved that. If the designers feel the feature should be used in this type of setting, why shouldn't we AT LEAST test that before we get all salty about one advanced technique which happens to be super situational.

We can't conclude that the Miis being able to use custom moves while customization is turned off certainly means that Sakurai deems that it should be usable in a more serious setting when the reason could simply be that it's more convenient.

 

[Jigglymaster]

We can't conclude that the Miis being able to use custom moves while customization is turned off certainly means that Sakurai deems that it should be usable in a more serious setting when the reason could simply be that it's more convenient.

Isn't that a bit hypocritical to say though? You guys are trying to limit Mii Figthers to their 1111 moveset because you believe that Sakurai deems it as their "default" loadouts, when in reality, is it? If you didn't know would you be able to tell me what the default Mii Brawler Down Special would be between Feint Jump, Head on Assault, and Foot Flurry? Each of their special moves are just as standard as the other. Anyone can clearly tell you which of Mario's fireballs are the standard. Did Sakurai just randomly pick which special moves went into the Mii Fighter's 1st moveslot or did he try to balance it? Is it simply more convenient for you to restrict their moveset to 1111 when not giving others the options to restrict their movesets to either 2222 or 3333 as well?

It's on everybody's Wii U's and Im being told I can't go into the special menu in my Guest Mii's status and just change it from 1 to 2? I'm bringing this up again, but thats the same as saying I'm not allowed to turn into Shiek in Melee when I pick Zelda. What if in Melee everybody had a special move that turned them into a better character but you had to unlock them but couldn't due to RNG bs, and Shiek was the only one you started out with, would you ban Shiek because "it's not fair"? The game lets you turn into Shiek and the game lets you use Mii Fighters other specials without customs on, both unique traits to those characters, so it should be allowed.

 

[MegaMissingno]

Well 1111 is the default for everyone else, even Palutena. And as was previously covered, Miis can get changed to that in events. So it makes perfect sense to call 1111 Mii Fighters' defaults too.

We're talking about a ruleset that bans alternate special moves. If Palutena can't use her menu, neither can Miis. For your Sheik analogy to make sense, that'd be like having a ruleset that bans everyone else from using their down-B, but then insisting that Sheik can use hers.

Either everyone gets them or nobody does. There shouldn't be any picking and choosing of who can and can't. I'm not even getting into whether they should be banned in the first place, simply saying that if moves are banned, then that ban should apply to everyone. Not just everyone except Miis.

 

[digiholic]

Let me ask this, if, instead of having custom moves, there were 192 (If I did my math right, it's late) extra characters on the CSS screen, would you have a problem with them?

If your answer is no, then, in what way is the Mii Fighter getting special treatment? It's basically just a shorthand for a gigantic character select screen. Palutena can't even claim that, since you need to turn customization on to use her specials, while you don't for the Mii fighters. They are, in effect, an insert on a map. Placing something absurdly gigantic inside a small box. It's like Alaska.

 

[MegaMissingno]

If one character (three, whatever) got 192 (243 actually, and that's before taking into account height/weight) slots on the CSS, I'd just be in awe of how incredibly stupid that is. Yeah, I think I would have a problem with that, even just from a game design/UI perspective.

Either way, that's not the case, so I'm not sure what your hypothetical is trying to say. I'm saying that if the Customize Menu is banned, that ban applies to everyone. Mii Fighters do have to use that menu to make changes, so it's just like everyone else's customs.

 

[Phase 2]

Either everyone gets them or nobody does. There shouldn't be any picking and choosing of who can and can't. I'm not even getting into whether they should be banned in the first place, simply saying that if moves are banned, then that ban should apply to everyone. Not just everyone except Miis.

And that's where we disagree. Miis are the exception and they were designed to be that exception. The evidence is there, if you choose to ignore it I can't stop you.

 

[LimitCrown]

Isn't that a bit hypocritical to say though? You guys are trying to limit Mii Figthers to their 1111 moveset because you believe that Sakurai deems it as their "default" loadouts, when in reality, is it? If you didn't know would you be able to tell me what the default Mii Brawler Down Special would be between Feint Jump, Head on Assault, and Foot Flurry? Each of their special moves are just as standard as the other. Anyone can clearly tell you which of Mario's fireballs are the standard. Did Sakurai just randomly pick which special moves went into the Mii Fighter's 1st moveslot or did he try to balance it? Is it simply more convenient for you to restrict their moveset to 1111 when not giving others the options to restrict their movesets to either 2222 or 3333 as well?

It's on everybody's Wii U's and Im being told I can't go into the special menu in my Guest Mii's status and just change it from 1 to 2? I'm bringing this up again, but thats the same as saying I'm not allowed to turn into Shiek in Melee when I pick Zelda. What if in Melee everybody had a special move that turned them into a better character but you had to unlock them but couldn't due to RNG bs, and Shiek was the only one you started out with, would you ban Shiek because "it's not fair"? The game lets you turn into Shiek and the game lets you use Mii Fighters other specials without customs on, both unique traits to those characters, so it should be allowed.

I don't think that it is hypocritical to say. To claim that Sakurai or the game itself doesn't consider the Miis to have a default or non-custom moveset just because they can use their custom moves while customization is turned off is a huge supposition because you would need to assume that it was done only for that reason. Also, since I've practiced using the Mii Fighters a lot, I would know what the defaults were. Also, since every other character's default moveset is 1111, then it's more likely that the Mii's default moveset is also 1111. This is supported by Event Mode restricting the Mii's movesets to that only.

Since Transform is a part of Zelda and Sheik's default and only movesets, I don't see why it should be restricted. Besides, if you were planning to play as only one of those two characters, then there wouldn't be any reason to use Transform in the first place. Likewise with Samus becoming Zero Suit Samus, there wouldn't be a reason to do this if you were planning to play as Samus in the first place.

 

[MegaMissingno]

Create a Mii Fighter. Choose a class and type a name in, then immediately exit the customize menu without touching anything else. What do you get? 1111. That is the dictionary definition of default right there.

 

[Phase 2]

Create a Mii Fighter. Choose a class and type a name in, then immediately exit the customize menu without touching anything else. What do you get? 1111. That is the dictionary definition of default right there.

Why are you harping on what their "default" setting is? Popcorn is default without butter and salt when you take it out of the microwave, does that mean you aren't supposed to customize it? The Mii creation page could put a big "DEFAULT" sticker on all the 1111 moves but it does not change the fact that Miis are still the only characters that can be customized with customs off.

I don't think that it is hypocritical to say. To claim that Sakurai or the game itself doesn't consider the Miis to have a default or non-custom moveset just because they can use their custom moves while customization is turned off is a huge supposition because you would need to assume that it was done only for that reason. Also, since I've practiced using the Mii Fighters a lot, I would know what the defaults were. Also, since every other character's default moveset is 1111, then it's more likely that the Mii's default moveset is also 1111. This is supported by Event Mode restricting the Mii's movesets to that only.

Sure it's a supposition, an informed supposition based on observable evidence. It's the only logical reason. Give me an alternate explanation as to why the Create-A-Fighter character is the only one that can be customized at any time, then we'll talk.

 

[MegaMissingno]

Jigglymaster was trying to argue that they don't even have defaults.

As for why the custom button does that, I can't read Sakurai's mind. I don't know why but I also don't care. We have a long history of ignoring Sakurai, why is authorial intent suddenly a big deal this time? This is the guy that thinks competitive play should just be Final Destination only. And with Miis banned entirely! So if you want to base your argument on Sakurai, his answer would be no Miis at all.

In fact, if you want me to wager a guess as to why the custom button does that, I'd say it's probably just because Sakurai doesn't expect us to be using Miis anyway. For the most part the game only treats them as an extra side thing for fun and not as proper characters. Random select will never pick them. They never show up in single player modes outside of the Fighting Mii Team. Challenges that require you to do something with all characters can be cleared even if you skip Miis. As far as Sakurai is concerned, they don't matter, so he doesn't even bother trying to standardize them.

Also consider the fact that every other fighting game that has a Create-a-Fighter mode just bans them from competitive play entirely. No custom souls in Soul Calibur (not even Devil Jin). No Combot in Tekken. I don't know a single other game that allows them. So if you want to say they're special because they're Create-a-Fighter, well, we can treat them that way...

 

[digiholic]

If one character (three, whatever) got 192 (243 actually, and that's before taking into account height/weight) slots on the CSS, I'd just be in awe of how incredibly stupid that is. Yeah, I think I would have a problem with that, even just from a game design/UI perspective.

Either way, that's not the case, so I'm not sure what your hypothetical is trying to say. I'm saying that if the Customize Menu is banned, that ban applies to everyone. Mii Fighters do have to use that menu to make changes, so it's just like everyone else's customs.

You kind of blew off my point here. The point is that it would be unbelievably stupid to have 243 slots for characters on the CSS. That's why it's all scaled into one button, the Mii Fighter spot. Once you click it, it expands into a sub-menu that lists all the characters. You can pick any Mii Fighter, even with customizations off, so it's not fair to think of it as choosing a custom character. It's basically using a UI workaround to having a gigantic CSS. My hypothetical to you, though, was, assuming that every single possible Mii Fighter combo had their own button on the CSS, despite being a gigantic cluster**** of Miis, would you have a problem with anyone picking them? Fundamentally, it is the same as it is now. Customs are OFF, and Miis are still pickable. There is nothing changed, no new added functionality, it's just a mess from a design perspective, but that's irrelevant.

 

[MegaMissingno]

I'd have a problem with trying to make one character that stupidly complicated, and if that was the case then I'd just say to treat them like Soul Calibur and Tekken treat their custom characters: banned entirely. Thankfully that's not how they work, and there is a very simple way to treat them the same as everyone else: 1111. If the rules say that Mario has to use 1111, then that rule should be the same for Miis. You're making this way more complicated than it needs to be trying to invent loopholes here.

Why is it such a big deal to have one rule that applies to everyone?

 

[digiholic]

I'm not inventing loopholes here. The rule isn't "All characters must use 1111", the rule is "Customization is set to OFF" and even that's mainly just a logistical thing with having to unlock the moves. There is no reason to limit the Mii Fighters, they're basically 243 distinct characters. It's not making one character needlessly complicated, it's banning 240 characters because they play similar to 3 of the others.

 

[MegaMissingno]

It's banning 240 "characters" (actually far more permutations than that, remember height/weight sliders which make things really complicated) for the same reason as banning the 3920 other "characters" you can make out of everyone else's customs. If we're going to ban one set, then the other should be banned too because it makes absolutely no sense to say these three can but everyone else can't. The custom button isn't some sort of almighty authority we ought to be basing our ruleset around, as I explained in my edit above Sakurai most likely just doesn't expect them to be in serious play at all anyway so he didn't bother. Makes about as much sense as citing how online works and saying if they're banned entirely there then they need to be banned entirely here. Or instead we could ignore Sakurai and just base our ruleset on what actually makes the most sense, like we've always done. And the two options that make the most sense are to say that either everyone can use custom moves or nobody can.

 

[Phase 2]

You're equating two things that aren't the same. Custom characters in Soul Calibur and Tekken use the moveset of someone else and are not unique characters (not counting Devil Jin, but he's broken anyway). And again, your idea that Sakurai doesn't care about the Miis is woefully misguided. Honestly doesn't even dignify a response.

For the record, the Miis probably aren't allowed on For Glory because aspects of their design cannot be censored by Nintendo, you can do some pretty hilarious (see: offensive) stuff with Mii faces in the Mii Maker, not to mention the names.

I'm not going to argue this in circles with you. My position is that Miis are the exception, based on the one piece of evidence we have that suggests they ARE in fact the exception. Your position is that they should not be, based solely on your opinion, which is inherently a weaker position than my own, but is fine nonetheless.

 

[MegaMissingno]

Combot is every bit as unique as Miis. And if Sakurai did care, he could've easily made default Miis for use online that replace your custom faces, problem solved.. But he didn't even bother to do that.

 

[Phase 2]

Combot is every bit as unique as Miis. And if Sakurai did care, he could've easily made default Miis for use online that replace your custom faces, problem solved.. But he didn't even bother to do that.

If by every bit as unique you mean less unique because he has no original moves then sure.

 

[digiholic]

The difference is, with characters, there are rules that need to be discussed. What do we do about unlocking moves? What do we do if someone's WiiU has a character with equipment and a grey circle and no one notices until the match is well underway? How do we decide what to delete if someone wants to make a moveset and all the slots are full? None of these questions apply to Mii Fighters, who can have their move sets with customs off. Personally, I feel like Palutena should be allowed to use customs even if they are banned, but the logistical can of worms it opens up with that custom button would make it impossible.

Setting customization to ON opens up a world of problems that the community isn't quite sure how to handle yet (For what it's worth, I'm absolutely in support of Amazing Ampharos's Standardized Custom Moves Project, which effectively nullifies all of these problems) and Mii Fighters have none of that baggage. It seems to me like you're misunderstanding the reasoning behind the rules and following only the letter. The rules aren't "Customizations are bad and should be removed" it's "I can't figure out a decent way to handle these, so let's ignore them for now." Forcing Miis to use 1111 when they are fully capable of doing otherwise without causing any other problems is just needless restriction. It would actually require more effort to enforce it than not, in an attempt to follow a rule that is meant to reduce effort from TO's to handle possible problems. It's violating the reason of a rule by following it to the letter of an assumed wording.

Basically, in the end, Mii Fighters will be legal, once we can pin down a customization ruleset that works for TOs (Again, plugging Amazing Ampharos's huge amount of work on the subject), and restricting them now just stifles any potential growth the characters can make in the crucial early metagame.

 

[MegaMissingno]

If by every bit as unique you mean less unique because he has no original moves then sure.

Actually Combot does have a few original moves to pick from. Either way he makes a brand new moveset out of remixing other characters. You might as well be saying Ancient Ogre isn't unique.

The difference is, with characters, there are rules that need to be discussed. What do we do about unlocking moves? What do we do if someone's WiiU has a character with equipment and a grey circle and no one notices until the match is well underway? How do we decide what to delete if someone wants to make a moveset and all the slots are full? None of these questions apply to Mii Fighters, who can have their move sets with customs off. Personally, I feel like Palutena should be allowed to use customs even if they are banned, but the logistical can of worms it opens up with that custom button would make it impossible.

Setting customization to ON opens up a world of problems that the community isn't quite sure how to handle yet (For what it's worth, I'm absolutely in support of Amazing Ampharos's Standardized Custom Moves Project, which effectively nullifies all of these problems) and Mii Fighters have none of that baggage. It seems to me like you're misunderstanding the reasoning behind the rules and following only the letter. The rules aren't "Customizations are bad and should be removed" it's "I can't figure out a decent way to handle these, so let's ignore them for now." Forcing Miis to use 1111 when they are fully capable of doing otherwise without causing any other problems is just needless restriction. It would actually require more effort to enforce it than not, in an attempt to follow a rule that is meant to reduce effort from TO's to handle possible problems. It's violating the reason of a rule by following it to the letter of an assumed wording.

Basically, in the end, Mii Fighters will be legal, once we can pin down a customization ruleset that works for TOs (Again, plugging Amazing Ampharos's huge amount of work on the subject), and restricting them now just stifles any potential growth the characters can make in the crucial early metagame.

Well now you're getting into the reasons behind why they might be banned, which is a much bigger can of worms that I was hoping to save for another day. You're assuming that grinding to unlock them is the only concern anyone might have, which is not true. There's also potential balance problems, as a lot of moves are just really ridiculous. And then there's folks who just plain prefer the vanilla game without it (as a lot of moves are just really ridiculous). There are plenty of reasons why a ruleset might restrict everyone to 1111, and they can extend to Mii Fighters.

 

[T0MMY]

You know when the only room left for a ban/limit argument to go is the "it's not fair" route then the conversation is coming to a close.

At this point the one claiming a violation of fairness must reasonably demonstrate how it is not "fair".

And the claim that Mii can use their custom moves when everyone else can't isn't an entailing argument for a number of reasons (most notably because it has not been verified that the game defines the Mii Specials as such).
This is what is known as "grasping at straws" where someone with no argument is trying to cling to something that very much not solid.
(Event Mode has about as much authority on competition as claiming items should be on because you start with a bat in the Homerun Contest mode)

Regardless of that entire tangent, the competitive principle of software authority heavily weighs in here: Customization/Custom Fighters turned off still allow Mii to be used without any limitations.

Until one finds a way to override the very programming of the game the argument ends there.

If one attempts an out-of-game ruling to ban/limit they must comply to the ban criteria. No sufficient reasoning has ever been able to do this.

Everyone use your Mii freely, if a TO tries to stop/limit you in any way call them out on violation of competitive principles. If they can show how a ban/limit meets the criteria then they can do as they please, but if they act unreasonable and you don't want to deal with them, feel free send them to me and I'll settle matters reasonably.

 

[digiholic]

Unlocking is not the only concern, but it is the one that is limiting it at the moment. The game is early, making any kneejerk reactions to something being OP is just not a thing that should be considered right now. If the customs are tried and deemed imbalanced, they will be removed, and I would be okay with using only 1111 Miis. Right now, though, we can't make that call until the options are tried. Most TOs are open to the idea of exploring customization in tournaments if it weren't so bloody difficult to set up.

 

[MegaMissingno]

Everyone use your Mii freely, if a TO tries to stop/limit you in any way call them out on violation of competitive principles. If they can show how a ban/limit meets the criteria then they can do as they please, but if they act unreasonable and you don't want to deal with them, feel free send them to me and I'll settle matters reasonably.

I didn't realize you were the ultimate authority that gets to tell other TOs what rulesets they are and aren't allowed to run.

I'm not seeing how "software authority" is supposed to be any more compelling, or why it's necessary to reprogram the game before any ruleset could ever say "1111 only" because that's pretty easy to enforce already.

 

[Phase 2]

I didn't realize you were the ultimate authority that gets to tell other TOs what rulesets they are and aren't allowed to run.

He isn't. What he's saying is, any ruleset where there are restrictions on Miis is objectively wrong unless those ban conditions outlined in his original post are met. I'm inclined to agree.

 

[MegaMissingno]

That is not what the word "objectively" means. Just because a ruleset doesn't meet your arbitrary standards doesn't make it invalid. Ultimately anything can be a ruleset, and if you don't like what a TO does you don't have to enter.

 

[Phase 2]

What "objectively" means is that an objective observer (i.e. not you; T0MMY himself has said he wasn't a fan of Miis until he took a step back and looked at it philosophically), based on logic and the philosophical principles outlined in the original post, would come to the same conclusion that he did. As far as tournaments go, I've been asking in advance if Miis are banned and not attending if they are. For example, Xanadu is 10 minutes from me and I'm not entering Smash 4 until they adjust their ruleset to at the very least unban them (and by talking to their TO personally I put that change into motion).

 

[T0MMY]

I didn't realize you were the ultimate authority that gets to tell other TOs what rulesets they are and aren't allowed to run.

This is an example of an "ad hominem" and usually the tail-end of a fallacious argument. My previous post claiming the argument is coming to an end has been justified.

I'm not seeing how "software authority" is supposed to be any more compelling, or why it's necessary to reprogram the game before any ruleset could ever say "1111 only" because that's pretty easy to enforce already.

Allow me to clarify:

Competitive Principles
To play Super Smash Bros.for the Wii U competitively one must adhere to the principles that constitute competition. There is no greater authority than the subject in question (for instance there is no greater authority on myself than I am); it follows that there is no greater authority on the software than the software itself. Because of the axiomatic nature of this reasoning we now have a Principle (I outlined the principles the best I could in the OP, it's ok to disagree with them and come up with your own principles but free market will essentially make the decision after that).
Of course there are exceptions to software authority, I believe I mentioned in the OP, so for brevity I will omit here.
For more information regarding Competitive Principles, please refer to my Guide: Competitive Philosophy for Super Smash Bros.

Free Market Reductio
Regarding why it would be necessary to reprogram the game would be to basically create your own game and present it on the free market to be used (something akin to Project:M). At that point one cannot argue that the software wasn't designed for said purpose, but again it'd be up to the free market to decide on using or not.

Out-of-Game Rules
It is easier to implement an out-of-game rule that attempts to enforce (through penalty of DQ or other such means) a "1111" default for the Mii rather than reprogram the game. At this point the protocol is that any out of game ban/limit must meet certain criteria, if it is not met then what we have on our hands is a "scrubby" tournament and competitive players would be well advised to not attend that since it is violating their principles (kind of like asking a Christian to attend a Satanic ritual which mocks their beliefs, probably should not happen).
Seeing as you are in a "Competitive Principles" thread in a "Competitive Discussion" board, you are accepting the terms in a competitive manner (granted, which may differ for you, but you are in my thread here and given full warning with links to the foundations of "competition").

So the only reasonable options I can see so far are:

• Advertise a scrubby casual event that limits players.
• Reprogram the game to suit a certain view/expectation of a niche audience.
• Demonstrate how the Mii meet a ban/limit criteria.
• Or just play the game and stop harassing people about their characters.

I choose the last option, personally, until a proper demonstration of criteria is met.

 

[LimitCrown]

You know when the only room left for a ban/limit argument to go is the "it's not fair" route then the conversation is coming to a close.

At this point the one claiming a violation of fairness must reasonably demonstrate how it is not "fair".

And the claim that Mii can use their custom moves when everyone else can't isn't an entailing argument for a number of reasons (most notably because it has not been verified that the game defines the Mii Specials as such).
This is what is known as "grasping at straws" where someone with no argument is trying to cling to something that very much not solid.
(Event Mode has about as much authority on competition as claiming items should be on because you start with a bat in the Homerun Contest mode)

Regardless of that entire tangent, the competitive principle of software authority heavily weighs in here: Customization/Custom Fighters turned off still allow Mii to be used without any limitations.

Until one finds a way to override the very programming of the game the argument ends there.

If one attempts an out-of-game ruling to ban/limit they must comply to the ban criteria. No sufficient reasoning has ever been able to do this.

Everyone use your Mii freely, if a TO tries to stop/limit you in any way call them out on violation of competitive principles. If they can show how a ban/limit meets the criteria then they can do as they please, but if they act unreasonable and you don't want to deal with them, feel free send them to me and I'll settle matters reasonably.

Your argument is the one that's is basically "grasping at straws" when the only thing that you have that supports your claim is an assumption. You assume that the only reason why the Mii Fighters can use custom moves in most modes even Customization is disabled is because they don't have any custom moves or defaults. However, this requires that you completely ignore other explanations like the ones that I have given. Event Mode does count since this is a behavior of the game, but you're willing to discount it completely since it's not Smash Mode. You're basically trying to say that this behavior doesn't count and you're hypocritically arguing against how the game is programmed.

The Brawler, Swordfighter, and Gunner are just three separate characters each with twelve choices of custom moves just like every other character. They are hardly different from any other character and the way their custom moves work is similar to Palutena. When you select any of the characters to customize them, the defaults "1111" are chosen first. Event Mode reverts any of the Mii's movesets to the default choices when Customization is turned off, so this supports that "1111" is the default. Every other character's moveset has "1111" as the default and it's doubtful that the order of the Mii's special moves were arbitrarily chosen which you assume to be the case.

You would need to make more assumptions and there is less to support the claim that Miis don't have custom moves than to claim the opposite which has more to support and relies less on assumptions.

 

[Jigglymaster]

Who is this exactly "unfair" for anyways? The characters? You're the player, you have the same tools to use as anybody else does in the game, Mii's can choose their specials, so what? You can pick that character too. are you afraid that they'll be top tier and you'll have to use them?

The main reason why customs are banned is because its too hard to unlock, but the ones we have from the start aren't allowed due to the fact that "its not fair" for the other characters. You're not the characters, you can't speak for them. All that is happening is that we're banning completely viable characters because of some stupid "unfairness" that is happening. Again, you can pick Mii Fighters too and choose their alt specials, but I guess its just easier to flat out ban them and never have to worry about losing to them ever.

You say other characters could be viable too if they had their customs, but due to RNG its too hard, thats just unfortunate for them. Boo hoo.

It's not fair that Shulk has a better counter than others, its not fair that Diddy Kong gets to spawn bananas, its not fair that Mii Fighters have their alt specials from the start. Its just, all not fair, but you can use it too. Plain and simple.

 

[T0MMY]

Your argument is the one that's is basically "grasping at straws" when the only thing that you have that supports your claim is an assumption.

Every solid argument has an assumption.
To not have one would invalidate it, you got that backwards.

this requires that you completely ignore other explanations like the ones that I have given.

No it doesn't.

Event Mode does count since this is a behavior of the game, but you're willing to discount it completely since it's not Smash Mode.

Try giving the event name to start of with then we can get to verifying it, until then it's just unfounded.

They are hardly different from any other character and the way their custom moves work is similar to Palutena.

The difference is Custom "Off" doesn't affect them. This is an objective fact of the game, not due to any subjectivity of "judgement" or "assumption". Competitively we play the game as it functions, it would be a burden of proof on anyone making claims to the contrary.
We do play in "Smash" mode, btw, keep that in mind.

You would need to make more assumptions and there is less to support the claim that Miis don't have custom moves than to claim the opposite which has more to support and relies less on assumptions.

Sorry, but the objective fact of software functionality is verifiable and the standard.
If you are stating that the out-of-game ruling to ban/limit a character has precedence over the principle of software functionality then you have a huge claim on your hand:
Great claims require great evidence.

Please show how a ban/limit criteria is met. Otherwise this conversation is done.

 

[LimitCrown]

Every solid argument has an assumption.
To not have one would invalidate it, you got that backwards.


No it doesn't.


Try giving the event name to start of with then we can get to verifying it, until then it's just unfounded.


The difference is Custom "Off" doesn't affect them. This is an objective fact of the game, not due to any subjectivity of "judgement" or "assumption". Competitively we play the game as it functions, it would be a burden of proof on anyone making claims to the contrary.
We do play in "Smash" mode, btw, keep that in mind.


Sorry, but the objective fact of software functionality is verifiable and the standard.
If you are stating that the out-of-game ruling to ban/limit a character has precedence over the principle of software functionality then you have a huge claim on your hand:
Great claims require great evidence.

Please show how a ban/limit criteria is met. Otherwise this conversation is done.

If your assumption isn't supported by other evidence, then I don't see how it would make your argument valid. Of course, your assumption that the Mii Fighters don't have custom moves is contrary to the rest of the game and contrary to how the Miis are treated in Event mode. It does require that you ignore other explanations for why it's possible for Miis to use custom moves in Smash Mode at any point, one of which is that the limit of Miis you can create is much higher than the amount of customizations you can create for each other character and the Miis could either look the same or be very different.

There isn't a need for you to pretend that I am lying about how the Miis are treated in Event Mode because if you had the game, you could easily test it for yourself. Also, since this is an example of the game itself limiting the movesets of the Miis when Customization is turned off, then it is direct evidence supporting my argument. This is how the software functions, so it's hypocritical to say that my argument is an out-of-game ruling when you completely discount this behavior of the game.

It's is very easy to use a Guest Mii in order to make a Mii Fighter and to not change anything else. Don't pretend that it's more complicated than it actually is. Miis with the default height and weight would be considered as the baseline of the Mii Fighter's stats since most of the default Mii Fighter's attacks would deal whole-number damage. It isn't even complicated.

 

[Reaperfan]

Let me be clear, my argument is that Miis ARE in fact a special exception to a no customs ruleset. Customization is far more integral to their design than any other character. They are literally the perfect realization of the Create-A-Fighter idea. The exception Sakurai made for them under the Customization: Off restriction only supports my feelings about the issue.

In a hypothetical game where you didn't have to unlock custom moves and every character had access to all moves from the start, as well as "customs on/off" not existing and they were just options you could change when picking your character akin to your player tag, what would we consider the "normal" moves for a character? Presumably, whatever moves the devs decided to have them equipped with before a player could customize them.

Obviously, this isn't the game we have because Sakurai wanted to gate almost all of the customization options behind extensive grinding for some reason, but the hypothetical does point more towards the mindset of where "Miis do actually have custom moves" comes from. The "default before customization" in the game we have is every character at 1111. Even Palutena, who comes fully unlocked right away, has a default of 1111. When making a Mii, they default all the moves to 1111 as well, only allowing you to change it after the character has technically already been created. If you back out of the screen after making your Mii without adjusting any customizable options, you have a Mii that has a moveset of 1111. That said, I don't think it's difficult to see how the logic that devs intended 1111 to be the default moves by design, and all others as customs, comes from.

As for them being their own character, I need to ask for clarification on your stance. This may be difficult for me to word well, so forgive me if I can't ask it in a very clear way, but are you saying that every Mii created is a separate character (if someone made 10 Miis on their system, then the game has a cast of 58)? Or is each Mii just a variation on the same character (Gunner, Brawler, and Swordfighter as the only classification of "character," making the roster 51 characters even if you made 10 different Miis but with each of those Miis just being an altered form of the "character")?

 

[JamietheAuraUser]

I still think banning Custom Moves at all is a stupid idea in the first place, given that we have no way of knowing whether they add to or detract from the meta, and there is no reason to assume they would detract from the competitive experience and plenty of reason to assume they would add to it. (See: Ganondorf, Samus, Ike, Kirby.)

Besides, banning them causes another problem in that once they're banned, they won't come back. The Smash community, much like Smogon, is notorious for never unbanning things once they get banned once. As I've seen from many 3DS streams, if you're determined about it it's entirely possible to unlock all the custom moves with a day or two of solid grinding. Is it that much harder on the Wii U version to get custom moves from grinding Classic or Master/Crazy Orders or whatever? Although, the pause-spamming exploit to unlock only custom parts likely does not exist on the Wii U version (which I don't have yet so I can't tell you one way or the other), which would prove problematic.

How long does it take to transfer a character build from the 3DS to the Wii U? Would this cause problems with wireless interference at large venues? Because at the very least, since we know it's possible to unlock all Custom Moves on the 3DS version in a fairly reasonable time frame, you could arrange to have a venue 3DS to make characters on and transfer them over.

 

[Phase 2]

In a hypothetical game where you didn't have to unlock custom moves and every character had access to all moves from the start, as well as "customs on/off" not existing and they were just options you could change when picking your character akin to your player tag, what would we consider the "normal" moves for a character? Presumably, whatever moves the devs decided to have them equipped with before a player could customize them.

Obviously, this isn't the game we have because Sakurai wanted to gate almost all of the customization options behind extensive grinding for some reason, but the hypothetical does point more towards the mindset of where "Miis do actually have custom moves" comes from. The "default before customization" in the game we have is every character at 1111. Even Palutena, who comes fully unlocked right away, has a default of 1111. When making a Mii, they default all the moves to 1111 as well, only allowing you to change it after the character has technically already been created. If you back out of the screen after making your Mii without adjusting any customizable options, you have a Mii that has a moveset of 1111. That said, I don't think it's difficult to see how the logic that devs intended 1111 to be the default moves by design, and all others as customs, comes from.

As for them being their own character, I need to ask for clarification on your stance. This may be difficult for me to word well, so forgive me if I can't ask it in a very clear way, but are you saying that every Mii created is a separate character (if someone made 10 Miis on their system, then the game has a cast of 58)? Or is each Mii just a variation on the same character (Gunner, Brawler, and Swordfighter as the only classification of "character," making the roster 51 characters even if you made 10 different Miis but with each of those Miis just being an altered form of the "character")?

My meaning was that the Mii's alternate specials are more different than the other characters, in accordance with their design as a "Create-a-Fighter". Coupling this with different weights and heights, it would only be a bit of a stretch to say that each new Mii is basically a new character, yes.

In regard to your first point, my thoughts on the Miis having default moves appear to have been a bit misrepresented. My argument the entire time has been that it doesn't matter if the Miis have default moves or not, that whole argument would boil down to semantics in the end; the fact remains they are the only character with the ability to change those moves and use them when everyone else can't.

For the record, it takes less than 30 seconds to copy a Mii or a custom character from a 3DS. Same as if you were customizing one of the Guest Miis in the menu.

 

[T0MMY]

The "default before customization" in the game we have is every character at 1111. Even Palutena, who comes fully unlocked right away, has a default of 1111. When making a Mii, they default all the moves to 1111 as well, only allowing you to change it after the character has technically already been created. If you back out of the screen after making your Mii without adjusting any customizable options, you have a Mii that has a moveset of 1111. That said, I don't think it's difficult to see how the logic that devs intended 1111 to be the default moves by design, and all others as customs, comes from.

I don't think there should be a debate about what is or is not "default" as that is simply speculation.
Ultimately if someone is instating a "1111" limit for ANY character it still needs to meet the ban/limit criteria. As demonstrated the "it's not fair" argument doesn't hold any water in a competitive ruleset.

Same goes for any claims if they are their own character or not, speculation isn't worth squat in a reasonable understanding of competition. To use this to defend the Mii isn't going to hold any merit, but the similarities to a Zelda/Sheik scenario is noteworthy in case anyone brings up question of "fairness" to change height/weight (similarly Shulk would not be limited in using his Monado arts due to it changing his "weight" as well as other stats).
Newer players need to learn the hard lesson of "adapt" - it'll help in all walks of life as well.

If your assumption isn't supported by other evidence, then I don't see how it would make your argument valid.

Because evidence doesn't make an argument valid, logically, an argument is valid if and only if the premises lead to an entailing conclusion. Whereas evidence is there to support an assertion.

Of course, your assumption that the Mii Fighters don't have custom moves is contrary to the rest of the game

Yeah, contrary to "Customization: Off" not applying to them apparently? Maybe we're playing different games? You might have Wii Sports in your Nintendo Entertainment System. Please remove the game, blow into the bottom, and try it again.

Whether Mii have custom moves or not is not a definite answer anyway, as the game functions to allow for the selection of their Specials regardless of any one person's mere opinion/speculation. When you can demonstrate why you put yourself above the very intrinsic programming of the software we use then you can become the god of Smashville and dictate how I play my game and if I do not obey, feel free to smote me with a plague of Smashville balloons or something.

if you had the game, you could easily test it for yourself.

More groundless speculation/ad hominem... yadda yadda...gotta be something good here somewhere...

This is how the software functions, so it's hypocritical to say that my argument is an out-of-game ruling when you completely discount this behavior of the game.

Yeah, let me know how to help you out here, nobody is going to be able to verify things you aren't clear about.
I was originally pro-ban with the Mii in my stance, but I didn't take your route because it didn't reasonably lead me to any conclusive decisions, these are the roadblocks you are having with your argument either find a different path or show me you can clear them and I'll follow you further down the path than I found.
If you want me to jump back on the pro-ban or limit bandwagon you gotta help me help you, until then the next ad hominem will end this part of the discussion and I'll see where it can progress or conclude to something useful.

It's is very easy to use a Guest Mii in order to make a Mii Fighter and to not change anything else. Don't pretend that it's more complicated than it actually is.

Strawman here, as I never said it was complicated (not sure anyone did really, it's a moot point).
It is not only easier but a stronger and more compelling argument to simply play the game without trying to be god of Smashville - just let the players play the game they traveled to come pay to compete in.
Very reasonable.

Miis with the default height and weight would be considered as the baseline of the Mii Fighter's stats since most of the default Mii Fighter's attacks would deal whole-number damage. It isn't even complicated.

Yeah, and this would entail Shulk couldn't change his stats with Monado Arts.
Sorry, this looks to lead to a Scrubby Slope (pun off "Slippery Slope"), heh heh.

 

[MegaMissingno]

I don't think there should be a debate about what is or is not "default" as that is simply speculation.

How is it speculation? If you create a Mii but don't modify anything, you get 1111. It defaults to 1111. That's the dictionary definition of the word 'default' right there. The thing you start with if you don't make any changes.

Also, how about the points I brought up about height/weight earlier?

Regarding setup time, the real problem I have is that height/weight cannot be edited in-game. You have to either exit all the way to Mii Maker (way too long) or import from 3DS (only available to 3DS owners). IMO no matter what we settle on regarding moves, the only solution to this dilemma is to restrict Mii Fighters to the preset Guest Miis only (with middle height/weight).

On top of that there's also the fact that you can't even check height/weight in-game to know what's on the console. It's hard to tell if someone might've adjusted the slider a smidge, which will completely throw off your physics if you think you're getting a min size Mii but it turns out the one on that console was a few pixels above that. The Guests are the only ones where you can know for sure what you're getting.

And no, it's not like Zelda or Shulk because it's out of game (literally, you have to exit all the way to Mii Maker), whereas those characters do it entirely in-game with the B button. Very different.