Competitive Principles: Mii

[JamietheAuraUser]

How is it speculation? If you create a Mii but don't modify anything, you get 1111. It defaults to 1111. That's the dictionary definition of the word 'default' right there. The thing you start with if you don't make any changes.

Also, how about the points I brought up about height/weight earlier?

On top of that there's also the fact that you can't even check height/weight in-game to know what's on the console. It's hard to tell if someone might've adjusted the slider a smidge, which will completely throw off your physics if you think you're getting a min size Mii but it turns out the one on that console was a few pixels above that. The Guests are the only ones where you can know for sure what you're getting.

And no, it's not like Zelda or Shulk because it's out of game (literally, you have to exit all the way to Mii Maker), whereas those characters do it entirely in-game with the B button. Very different.

Easy enough. You want a mid-weight Mii Fighter? Use a Guest so you know what you're getting. Otherwise? Bring your own Mii Fighter over from your 3DS, so you know what you're getting. They could even arrange to have a venue 3DS available before the start of the tournament so if you lack a 3DS of your own, you could build a Mii on the venue's 3DS and then make a Mii Fighter of it and send it over to the Wii U. I honestly doubt there would be enough tournament players who A) want to play a custom-built Mii and B) don't have their own 3DSes, for it to actually become a problem. And if there are, well, first come first served I guess!

 

[Reaperfan]

Easy enough. You want a mid-weight Mii Fighter? Use a Guest so you know what you're getting. Otherwise? Bring your own Mii Fighter over from your 3DS, so you know what you're getting. They could even arrange to have a venue 3DS available before the start of the tournament so if you lack a 3DS of your own, you could build a Mii on the venue's 3DS and then make a Mii Fighter of it and send it over to the Wii U. I honestly doubt there would be enough tournament players who A) want to play a custom-built Mii and B) don't have their own 3DSes, for it to actually become a problem. And if there are, well, first come first served I guess!

It's not a matter of if YOU know what the Mii's specs are. It's a matter of if the OPPONENT knows what the Mii's specs are. This loops back to the oldest arguments where the slightest change in size or weight could alter what your opponent's characters are capable of. Tick the height mark a couple points and it could mean the difference between an opponent's combo landing or whiffing. And as subtle as the ticks are, there's no way for your opponent to know exactly what those minor adjustments are. Now imagine a person who wants to go out and, between matches in a set, continually alter the size and weight of the character just to keep the opponent slightly off.

Mii size and weight needs to be regulated, be it having set values per Mii type or limiting it only to Guest Miis. But allowing full-on "just port over whatever you want" really just seems like a bad idea.

 

[Rayman!]

The Mii's actually have pretty bizarre fast moves, of course they would've gotten ban.

 

[JamietheAuraUser]

The Mii's actually have pretty bizarre fast moves, of course they would've gotten ban.

Meta Knight was never truly banned in Brawl (even though they tried), and none of the Miis have even close to his level of power. Even the Brawler's One-Inch Punch doesn't really compare.

It's not a matter of if YOU know what the Mii's specs are. It's a matter of if the OPPONENT knows what the Mii's specs are. This loops back to the oldest arguments where the slightest change in size or weight could alter what your opponent's characters are capable of. Tick the height mark a couple points and it could mean the difference between an opponent's combo landing or whiffing. And as subtle as the ticks are, there's no way for your opponent to know exactly what those minor adjustments are. Now imagine a person who wants to go out and, between matches in a set, continually alter the size and weight of the character just to keep the opponent slightly off.

Mii size and weight needs to be regulated, be it having set values per Mii type or limiting it only to Guest Miis. But allowing full-on "just port over whatever you want" really just seems like a bad idea.

I can see your point to be honest, and it might be problematic if TOs want to go modify the base Miis compared to the specs they're supposed to have.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

I can see your point to be honest, and it might be problematic if TOs want to go modify the base Miis compared to the specs they're supposed to have.

I don't think it's possible to modify the height/weight of the Guest A-F Miis, which is why they're ideal for standardized Mii sizing.

 

[JamietheAuraUser]

I don't think it's possible to modify the Guest A-F Miis, which is why they're ideal for standardized Mii sizing.

That's true, but the problem is that, if I recall correctly, they're all the default height. Am I right or no?

 

[Phase 2]

It's not a matter of if YOU know what the Mii's specs are. It's a matter of if the OPPONENT knows what the Mii's specs are. This loops back to the oldest arguments where the slightest change in size or weight could alter what your opponent's characters are capable of. Tick the height mark a couple points and it could mean the difference between an opponent's combo landing or whiffing. And as subtle as the ticks are, there's no way for your opponent to know exactly what those minor adjustments are. Now imagine a person who wants to go out and, between matches in a set, continually alter the size and weight of the character just to keep the opponent slightly off.

Mii size and weight needs to be regulated, be it having set values per Mii type or limiting it only to Guest Miis. But allowing full-on "just port over whatever you want" really just seems like a bad idea.

A relatively valid argument, compared to what I've been dealing with in this thread so far. It's refreshing lol. The thing with Mii size and weight is that no one is actually keying on these things. Good players will learn what works and what doesn't work intuitively in the early stages of a match. It's also unreasonable to think someone would change a move around on their Mii or even worse change their size slightly in between matches. Although it's a valid issue, its just not something I see happening, or even in a case where Miis are fully legal, something that a TO would ever allow.

 

[JamietheAuraUser]

A relatively good argument, compared to what I've been dealing with in this thread so far. It's refreshing lol. The thing with Mii size and weight is that no one is actually keying on these things. Good players will learn what works and what doesn't work intuitively in the early stages of a match. It's also unreasonable to think someone would change a move around on their Mii or even worse change their size slightly in between matches. Although it's a valid issue, its just not something I see happening, or even in a case where Miis are fully legal, something that a TO would ever allow.

The only way you could possibly change your Mii's height and width properties between matches would be to have multiple almost-duplicate Miis premade on your 3DS and switch to a different one every single match. That's not going to fly, at least not after they see you re-upload a seemingly-identical Mii Fighter with the exact same moveset. In other words, you're only going to get away with that once, if that.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

That's true, but the problem is that, if I recall correctly, they're all the default height. Am I right or no?

I edited to clarify, but to my knowledge they're all smack dab in the middle of both height/weight. As I understand it, the Mii meta is revolving around various combinations of short/tall and thin/fat and trying to figure out which one is optimal for each archetype, so average/average is not ideal for anyone in that regard. But if the possibility of a Mii being off by a tick or two on the slider really does have the potential to disrupt the matchup (I'm not convinced this is the case but let's roll with it for now), then it may actually be best to restrict everyone to one of the guest Miis. They're guaranteed to be the same size everywhere and can't be deleted, so there's no valid excuse that one can't practice on them or has to make their own because the console's missing it.

I have my own Miis on default/default size sliders with their faces made to match the official Brawler/Swordfighter/Gunner art, but that's to be funny more than anything.

 

[LimitCrown]

I don't think there should be a debate about what is or is not "default" as that is simply speculation.
Ultimately if someone is instating a "1111" limit for ANY character it still needs to meet the ban/limit criteria. As demonstrated the "it's not fair" argument doesn't hold any water in a competitive ruleset.

Same goes for any claims if they are their own character or not, speculation isn't worth squat in a reasonable understanding of competition. To use this to defend the Mii isn't going to hold any merit, but the similarities to a Zelda/Sheik scenario is noteworthy in case anyone brings up question of "fairness" to change height/weight (similarly Shulk would not be limited in using his Monado arts due to it changing his "weight" as well as other stats).
Newer players need to learn the hard lesson of "adapt" - it'll help in all walks of life as well.


Because evidence doesn't make an argument valid, logically, an argument is valid if and only if the premises lead to an entailing conclusion. Whereas evidence is there to support an assertion.


Yeah, contrary to "Customization: Off" not applying to them apparently? Maybe we're playing different games? You might have Wii Sports in your Nintendo Entertainment System. Please remove the game, blow into the bottom, and try it again.

Whether Mii have custom moves or not is not a definite answer anyway, as the game functions to allow for the selection of their Specials regardless of any one person's mere opinion/speculation. When you can demonstrate why you put yourself above the very intrinsic programming of the software we use then you can become the god of Smashville and dictate how I play my game and if I do not obey, feel free to smote me with a plague of Smashville balloons or something.


More groundless speculation/ad hominem... yadda yadda...gotta be something good here somewhere...



Yeah, let me know how to help you out here, nobody is going to be able to verify things you aren't clear about.
I was originally pro-ban with the Mii in my stance, but I didn't take your route because it didn't reasonably lead me to any conclusive decisions, these are the roadblocks you are having with your argument either find a different path or show me you can clear them and I'll follow you further down the path than I found.
If you want me to jump back on the pro-ban or limit bandwagon you gotta help me help you, until then the next ad hominem will end this part of the discussion and I'll see where it can progress or conclude to something useful.


Strawman here, as I never said it was complicated (not sure anyone did really, it's a moot point).
It is not only easier but a stronger and more compelling argument to simply play the game without trying to be god of Smashville - just let the players play the game they traveled to come pay to compete in.
Very reasonable.


Yeah, and this would entail Shulk couldn't change his stats with Monado Arts.
Sorry, this looks to lead to a Scrubby Slope (pun off "Slippery Slope"), heh heh.

I'm not sure why you would accuse me of using ad hominem when your last sentence is basically you calling me a scrub after making a poor comparison between the Mii Fighters and Shulk when the Monado Arts is a major part of Shulk's moveset, it isn't permanent, and the effects are much greater. Also your comparison of Zelda/Sheik and the Mii Fighters is flawed and transformation gimmicks aren't even present in this game.

When your assumption that the Mii Fighters don't have custom moves relies on changing the definition of what a default or a customization option is and ignoring how Event Mode treats the Miis just because it isn't Smash Mode, then of course I will say that your argument isn't valid. You had also said that I needed to prove that Event Mode forces the Miis to use their default moveset when nobody else has said that my statement was wrong. Since you are arguing that the Miis don't have any default special moves even though every other character's default is "1111" and there is an instance of the game forcing the Miis to use "1111", then I could accuse you of trying to deny how the game works by saying that it's ambiguous whether the Miis have them. The order of the choices for the Mii's custom moves isn't arbitrary.

I would appreciate it if you didn't try to insult me.

 

[JamietheAuraUser]

I edited to clarify, but to my knowledge they're all smack dab in the middle of both height/weight. As I understand it, the Mii meta is revolving around various combinations of short/tall and thin/fat and trying to figure out which one is optimal for each archetype, so average/average is not ideal for anyone in that regard. But if the possibility of a Mii being off by a tick or two on the slider really does have the potential to disrupt the matchup (I'm not convinced this is the case but let's roll with it for now), then it may actually be best to restrict everyone to one of the guest Miis. They're guaranteed to be the same size everywhere and can't be deleted, so there's no valid excuse that one can't practice on them or has to make their own because the console's missing it.

I have my own Miis on default/default size sliders with their faces made to match the official Brawler/Swordfighter/Gunner art, but that's to be funny more than anything.

Sure, if being off by a tick or two really can break everything, then that makes some sense. I'm not convinced that is the case either, of course. We'll probably learn a bit more if/when we really deconstruct the code about how Mii Fighters' damage, reach, size, etc. are actually affected by height/width. People will start optimizing for highest damage output possible with same frame data, etc.

 

[san.]

Height: Reach, damage(small), mobility(large), ending lag
Weight: Damage(large), mobility(medium)

A taller Mii can have a weight below 50% to achieve the same damage as the default. A shorter Mii needs weight in the 70-80% range to deal as much damage as the default. Reach is height only despite how the animations seem to appear. Because of the smooth scaling, there isn't really a single optimum outside of making sure bread and butter aerials can autocancel from a short hop and similar aspects.

In the end, a variety of heights/widths are going to be needed and used.

 

[JamietheAuraUser]

Height: Reach, damage(small), mobility(large), ending lag
Weight: Damage(large), mobility(medium)

A taller Mii can have a weight below 50% to achieve the same damage as the default. A shorter Mii needs weight in the 70-80% range to deal as much damage as the default. Reach is height only despite how the animations seem to appear. Because of the smooth scaling, there isn't really a single optimum outside of making sure bread and butter aerials can autocancel from a short hop and similar aspects.

In the end, a variety of heights/widths are going to be needed and used.

So the Swordfighter has a longer blade with increased weight, but despite that reach still increases based on height alone? That's... really really weird.

 

[T0MMY]

I'm not sure why you would accuse me of using ad hominem when your last sentence is basically you calling me a scrub...

I would appreciate it if you didn't try to insult me.

My dear fellow, a pun on "slippery slope" cannot be an ad hominem - it pertained to the flawed "height/weight" reasoning.
Glad to clear that up.
Now many you can clear up whether you understand my point that the Mii height/weight issue is going to snowball into including Shulk's Monado Arts changing his weight, speed, and other stats. Or do you acquiesce?

When your assumption that the Mii Fighters don't have custom moves relies on changing the definition of what a default or a customization option is and ignoring how Event Mode treats the Miis just because it isn't Smash Mode, then of course I will say that your argument isn't valid.

You can say it's not valid, but that doesn't mean it is.
To invalidate it you will have to show where the faulty reasoning is.

For instance, you say I changed the definition, but you provide no evidence for this - however I do state that I saw nowhere that the game defined the moves as custom moves; how can I change a definition when I have clearly stated there was no definition made?
Sorry, but that's a "gotcha" moment.

You had also said that I needed to prove that Event Mode forces the Miis to use their default moveset when nobody else has said that my statement was wrong.

Nobody has to disprove what you said, the burden of proof is on those who make claims. If you make a claim about an event mode then you'd better help me identify it. Your total resistance to help me only hurts you because I am attempting to logically analyze this on the side of truth and reasoning. If you resist this then you only resist what is good for yourself and the competitive community.
Like I said, I was a pro-ban initially before I had any information on how the game functioned (Mii use custom move? They shouldn't be used in a non-custom ruleset. Reasonable) - but honest people helped me find the information I needed to make an honest judgement on rules for my tournaments that stress competition. A good motivation is to not deter my attendees away from my events who want a good clean and fair fight.

Since you are arguing that the Miis don't have any default special moves

I am not making the claim they do NOT have default special moves. I simply stated that I have found no definition of "Custom Moves" for the Mii and only stated the facts on how the software functions regarding the Mii.
Please keep the facts straight, thanks.

I could accuse you of trying to deny how the game works by saying that it's ambiguous whether the Miis have them. The order of the choices for the Mii's custom moves isn't arbitrary.

Go ahead and try it: Accusations (assertions) need compelling evidence, groundless accusations just hurt those who go and "cry wolf".

When one has evidence to a claim I don't ignore it: I love the truth, embrace it, and grow from it.

How do you think I got to the point of starting this thread despite being pro-ban?

Good luck.

 

[digiholic]

As much as I agree with you on most of the other stuff, I don't think the Shulk comparison fits here, because you can see Shulk's Monado art and know how that affects him. There's not much visible difference in a Mii Fighter with altered stats, and if they swap between games, it'd be hard to notice.

That being said, I think we should either agree on the guest miis, or possibly do some testing to find out if the Mii Fighter's stats actually significantly change gameplay to the point where it would be a problem.

 

[MegaMissingno]

My dear fellow, a pun on "slippery slope" cannot be an ad hominem - it pertained to the flawed "height/weight" reasoning.
Glad to clear that up.
Now many you can clear up whether you understand my point that the Mii height/weight issue is going to snowball into including Shulk's Monado Arts changing his weight, speed, and other stats. Or do you acquiesce?

All this talk of logical fallacies from you and then you turn around and unironically make a slippery slope argument? The difference between Shulk and Miis is very simple. One is in-game and accessed by tapping the B button during a match. One is out of game, accessed by literally quitting out of Super Smash Bros. and going all the way over to Mii Maker to set it up. One is a consistent set of discrete values, and both players can tell exactly what Shulk's weights are, each Monado Art always works the same way. The other is an analog slider that cannot even be viewed in-game, making it extremely difficult to tell the difference at a glance between values that are close together. Even the player using Miis can't always trust that the console has the right size he wants already set up on it.

Restricting one is not a slippery slope that must lead to restricting the other. Hell, you're the guy arguing that we should have a completely different set of rules for Miis than everyone else anyway.

 

[san.]

So the Swordfighter has a longer blade with increased weight, but despite that reach still increases based on height alone? That's... really really weird.

Yep. If you have a short+fat Mii, 1/3 of your blade doesn't even have a hitbox. Also, try a forward smash with a tall+skinny Swordfighter and look at max reach.

 

[T0MMY]

All this talk of logical fallacies from you and then you turn around and unironically make a slippery slope argument?

Actually, my argument resides in the OP (that bans/limits need to meet a criteria).
My humor resides in the post which I said:

Sorry, this looks to lead to a Scrubby Slope (pun off "Slippery Slope"), heh heh.

Pointing out how the height/weight issue looks to have shaky ground with some humor is not fallacy (especially if the middle-ground I am pointing to actually does turn out to be fallible).

If I'm not (logically) cautious and blindly agree with the height/weight issue then I might find myself on a slippery slope and I (and poor Shulk) may find we've "slipped up".

If you want to take the joke a little more seriously, I'll explain how Slippery Slope is not always fallacious (the more popular usage is fallacious as it is probability fallacy and used with continuum fallacy):

Spoiler

How strong/weak a "slippery slope" argument is depends on the proof backing it up., that is whether or not one can demonstrate a reasonable process that leads to the point made. If an argument ignores the possibility of middle ground and assumes transition from point A to point B it is a continuum fallacy.

Wiki: "Modern usage avoids the fallacy by acknowledging the possibility of this middle ground."

Characters that vary in statistics (such as height/weight) should not be allowed to do so.
Mii is a character.
Mii can change statistics.
Mii should be limited/banned.
Shulk is a character.
Shulk can change statistics.
∴ Shulk should be limited/banned.

I start with the first statement to be indeterminate (being open-minded).
I agree with the second statement (as well as the fifth).
I have verified the third and sixth statements.
It follows that if the first statement is true then we have a valid argument (the conclusion follows).

However, the first statement may be not true.
If the first statement is false (and arbitrary out-of-game rulings are always suspect in competitive philosophy) then it follows that Shulk should not be banned or limited and neither should Mii.

Burden of Proof once again states that the one making the claim (the first premise that declares a claim for out-of-game ban/limit ruling) needs to demonstrate their findings - it's called a RULE for a reason: one must weigh and measure according to a Standard. In competitive theory the ban criteria is simple: Enforceable, Discrete, Warranted.
Until this check and balance is done then no competitive member should even bat an eyelash at such a claim.

Good luck

The difference between Shulk and Miis is very simple. One is in-game and accessed by tapping the B button during a match. One is out of game, accessed by literally quitting out of Super Smash Bros. and going all the way over to Mii Maker to set it up.

First of all, cherry picking differences is not going to dismiss the reductio ad absurdum.
Second of all, it does not necessitate that one must close the software to make a Mii.

I think this aphorism explains the height/weight issue more clearly:

Ban
Limit
Patch
Adapt

Hell, you're the guy arguing that we should have a completely different set of rules for Miis than everyone else anyway.

Maybe I didn't get the memo out properly:
Any accusation must provide evidence.

No evidence = groundless accusations and embarrasses the conversation.
Flimsy evidence is about as embarrassing.

I usually advise to stay away from a "Tu quoque" as well, as it doesn't get our conversation anywhere productive.

 

[T0MMY]

As much as I agree with you on most of the other stuff, I don't think the Shulk comparison fits here, because you can see Shulk's Monado art and know how that affects him.

What if he hides in the bushes on the Duck Hunt Stage?
There's other sneaky tactics he can use.
But really, the argument didn't clarify HOW the stats were changing, just that they changed therefore it justified the ruling.
Again, I simply pointed out how shaky the ground was there, not that I was holding to either side. I preferred to make light of it with some humor and move on.

So, ultimately, I agree with you.
I think these issues are being put to bed:

• The height/weight issue
• The "Custom Fighter/Move" issue (aka the "not fair" issue)
  
• The "time constraints" issue

And even some arguments that are on the anti-ban/limit side:

• Each Mii made are unique/different characters

I am seeing these as red herrings and detract from the OP:
Ban/Limit must meet criteria

The longer this is avoided and other issues are brought to the table the weaker the pro-ban side looks to me.

 

[JamietheAuraUser]

Yep. If you have a short+fat Mii, 1/3 of your blade doesn't even have a hitbox. Also, try a forward smash with a tall+skinny Swordfighter and look at max reach.

I've never noticed part of the blade to outright lack a hitbox on any character, but I have noticed that the length of the sword varies depending on the outfit, with the Cyborg Suit seemingly matching the actual hitbox the best and the Pirate Outfit having a dinky little dagger thing that results in a huge amount of ghost reach.

 

[san.]

I've never noticed part of the blade to outright lack a hitbox on any character, but I have noticed that the length of the sword varies depending on the outfit, with the Cyborg Suit seemingly matching the actual hitbox the best and the Pirate Outfit having a dinky little dagger thing that results in a huge amount of ghost reach.

I have around 10 different Mii weight/height distributions and tested reach and damage in training mode. If you're not sure, it only takes a quick test if you have the Miis ready.

 

[LimitCrown]

My dear fellow, a pun on "slippery slope" cannot be an ad hominem - it pertained to the flawed "height/weight" reasoning.
Glad to clear that up.

"Scrubby Slope", "god of Smashville", and your attitude that my statements are inherently incorrect because you don't agree with them shows your hostility. You also discarded my statement that you could see if the Miis used their default moveset in Event Mode with customization turned off yourself as groundless speculation even though you could and it's unreasonable to assume that I would be lying about it when my statement was supported by others.

You can say it's not valid, but that doesn't mean it is.
To invalidate it you will have to show where the faulty reasoning is.

For instance, you say I changed the definition, but you provide no evidence for this - however I do state that I saw nowhere that the game defined the moves as custom moves; how can I change a definition when I have clearly stated there was no definition made?
Sorry, but that's a "gotcha" moment.

Customize: to build, fit, or alter according to individual specifications. Every character can be customized to have equipment and different special moves from the defaults. Each of the special moves are given a number, and the ones that were given a 1 are the special moves that every character starts with. The Mii Fighters can use any of their special moves in Smash Mode; however, the amount of Mii Fighters that you can create is much larger than the amount of custom sets that you can create for one character. It would be difficult to remember each custom moveset for each Mii Fighter if there is a lot of them, so one possible reason why they're allowed to do this in Smash Mode is that it's more convenient.

The Mii Fighters are similar to Palutena how each of their custom moves have unique properties and animations from each other. However, Palutena's basic, default moveset are the special moves that were given the number 1. Also, as I had stated before, in Event Mode, the Mii Fighters' movesets are reverted to the defaults, the ones that all of the Mii Fighters start with, so it is an example of the game itself changing a Mii's moveset.

Each Mii Fighter is not its own separate character. It is only an alteration of one of three characters: The Mii Brawler, the Mii Swordfighter, or the Mii Gunner. Whether it is by a change of appearance, special moves, outfits, hats, or the addition of equipment, they are changed to how a person prefers the character to be. Therefore, my claim that the Miis have custom moves is supported.

I am not making the claim they do NOT have default special moves. I simply stated that I have found no definition of "Custom Moves" for the Mii and only stated the facts on how the software functions regarding the Mii.
Please keep the facts straight, thanks.

You are basically saying that because you didn't find any definition of custom moves for the Mii, you claim that the statement that Miis have custom moves is false. Basically, you're saying that since there isn't evidence of the contrary, it means your claim is true, which is a logical fallacy. Yet, there was direct evidence that I presented (Event Mode) and the comparisons I made that you outright deny. I've yet to see you sufficiently prove your claim.

Like I said, I was a pro-ban initially before I had any information on how the game functioned (Mii use custom move? They shouldn't be used in a non-custom ruleset. Reasonable) - but honest people helped me find the information I needed to make an honest judgement on rules for my tournaments that stress competition. A good motivation is to not deter my attendees away from my events who want a good clean and fair fight.

This isn't about you. You're trying to appeal to emotion. Also, the implications in these statements seems to be that you're contrasting either me or my claim with "honest" people.

Go ahead and try it: Accusations (assertions) need compelling evidence, groundless accusations just hurt those who go and "cry wolf".

When one has evidence to a claim I don't ignore it: I love the truth, embrace it, and grow from it.

When you have discarded the evidence or proof that I provided, how can I believe this? And again, this isn't about you.

 

[san.]

When Smash Mode allows something, I think whatever Event Mode does is irrelevant.

 

[MegaMissingno]

Maybe I didn't get the memo out properly:
Any accusation must provide evidence.

No evidence = groundless accusations and embarrasses the conversation.
Flimsy evidence is about as embarrassing.

I usually advise to stay away from a "Tu quoque" as well, as it doesn't get our conversation anywhere productive.

Okay, how about you give me some evidence that the out of game height/weight sliders are literally the same thing as Shulk's in-game B button and that banning one is totally a slippery slope that would lead to the other. You're the one cherry picking here, citing only one detail they have in common that is completely unrelated to any point I've ever brought up and saying that makes them the same thing despite everything that's different and actually related to what I'm talking about. Mii height/weights are a nightmare for setup, and that is the issue I have with them. Shulk's B button is not. The fact that they both involve weight is not relevant to anything in this discussion.

 

[T0MMY]

Okay, how about you give me some evidence that the out of game height/weight sliders are literally the same thing as Shulk's in-game B button and that banning one is totally a slippery slope that would lead to the other.

I provided the reasoning in my collapsed section of my previous post (click "Spoiler" to expand it).

Try it out here:

Spoiler

I worked off the "height/weight issue" which claims that the stat changes are why Mii need to be ban/limited. If stat changes are everything then it wouldn't be limited to just Mii. In my last post I explained the slippery slope pun was humorous and even when taken seriously I simply said it's shaky ground and I'm not going anywhere near the height/weight isssue due to that (or else something like Robin changing his gender akin to Mii changing its appearance may lead to a ban/limit on Robin).
The middle ground was shown and I will still stay away from blindly accepting what looks to be a logically dangerous area.

But simply put: Me NOT accepting the proposal does not mean I need evidence - the burden of proof is on those who claim Height/Weight Issue is reason for ban/limit.

Regarding the change in height/weight of characters like Mii, I simply posted a concise adage:

Ban
Limit
Patch
Adapt​

Mii height/weights are a nightmare for setup

If that's the issue you have (not about players being thrown off by different hieght/weights of players' Mii) then all I can say is subjective opinion isn't really important to rulesets.
I would suggest you play a different character if you don't want to set up your Mii.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

What if he hides in the bushes on the Duck Hunt Stage?
There's other sneaky tactics he can use.
But really, the argument didn't clarify HOW the stats were changing, just that they changed therefore it justified the ruling.
Again, I simply pointed out how shaky the ground was there, not that I was holding to either side. I preferred to make light of it with some humor and move on.

Assuming you're talking about Shulk here, the Wii U version shows his currently active Art next to the % meter, complete with blinking as it nears the end of its duration. Just FYI.

 

[LimitCrown]

I provided the reasoning in my collapsed section of my previous post (click "Spoiler" to expand it).

Try it out here:

Spoiler

I worked off the "height/weight issue" which claims that the stat changes are why Mii need to be ban/limited. If stat changes are everything then it wouldn't be limited to just Mii. In my last post I explained the slippery slope pun was humorous and even when taken seriously I simply said it's shaky ground and I'm not going anywhere near the height/weight isssue due to that (or else something like Robin changing his gender akin to Mii changing its appearance may lead to a ban/limit on Robin).
The middle ground was shown and I will still stay away from blindly accepting what looks to be a logically dangerous area.

But simply put: Me NOT accepting the proposal does not mean I need evidence - the burden of proof is on those who claim Height/Weight Issue is reason for ban/limit.

Regarding the change in height/weight of characters like Mii, I simply posted a concise adage:

Ban
Limit
Patch
Adapt​

If that's the issue you have (not about players being thrown off by different hieght/weights of players' Mii) then all I can say is subjective opinion isn't really important to rulesets.
I would suggest you play a different character if you don't want to set up your Mii.

Here is the problem with your reasoning. The Mii Fighters during gameplay do not have any way of changing their stats like Shulk. When you create a Mii Fighter, the height and weight of the Mii used determines what the stats of the Mii Fighter are. In contrast, Shulk's Monado Arts are not permanent and the effects of each art are much stronger. Standardizing a Mii's height and weight doesn't mean that Shulk would be banned because of his Monado Arts. What does adapting have to do with this?

 

[MegaMissingno]

I can't tell what the exact size of my opponent's Mii is. And hell, neither can my opponent unless they close the game and go to Mii Maker to check what's on the console. That is a serious problem for both players. At this point you're just deliberately ignoring and misrepresenting my argument.

 

[san.]

Weight/Height is the quirk of the character with minimal differences outside of being able to autocancel certain aerials. After making 30+ Miis and looking at all the sizes, it's easy to tell. There is nothing more to internalize other than low-med-high for both height and weight.

I think the biggest problem is making a Mii, since I think it requires a gamepad or Pro Controller or something. That's why it's safe to say that if you can't transfer your own Mii, be prepared to use the default size.

 

[Azazel]

Customs threads the main argument is that there are only a certain amount of slots for customs and constant swapping of customs is a hassle. this is the main reason customs are banned in Wii U. They are totally viable on 3ds.
Under this reasoning Palutena customs are still banned since she still has limited slots and constant editing wastes time and is a hassle

Mii are create a character. There is no limit to their customization. You can have limitless amounts of Miis. You can have every weight/height, and combination of Specials. Each being a Unique character.
Banning Mii's is like banning unlockable characters.
"Oh the game doesn't start off with this character readily available out of the box, BANNED."
The Miis can be created beforehand as unlockable characters can unlocked beforehand.
I suppose Scrolling through a multitude of Miis of varying sizes is still a hassle so using Guest Miis named according to their specials combination 1111 is the solution

Under this reasoning each combination of mii is an "unlockable" character.

Treating each Mii as a unique character also answers the arguement "well their Weight/hieght varies, this give them an unfair advantage"

For perspective see clone characters, Dark pit and Pit are clone characters varying slightly. Different Miis should be treated similarly.
Named Miis tells their Specials, and seeing the type of guest Mii gives their weight just as Seeing if it's dark pit vs Pit, you can simply look at the Name and Apearance then decide how to play the MU

Though the only thing that can be criticized is the hassle of creating all the Mii fighters beforehand and then telling Mii mains to conform to that
or create a character =/= unlockable character

TL;DR sorry palutena, Mii fighter "customs" are ok

Spoiler

Lel, now convice Tier list creators to include every variation of Miis

 

[LimitCrown]

Each Mii Fighter that you can create is not it's own separate character. Each Mii Fighter is only one of three characters that can be customized. The Mii Fighters are also not similar to unlockable characters since there isn't anything that can prevent you from being able to make one. The Brawler, Swordfighter, and Gunner are unlike Pit and Dark Pit because they aren't clones of each other.

In regards to their height and weight, it's more likely that the Miis were balanced around the default height and weight because most of their attacks deal whole-number damage with those settings. Also, it just seems to be that short, heavy Miis have disproportionately better advantages than the other combinations of height and weight.

 

[Yikarur]

In germany we will probably use the following rule:
- Customization OFF is the only rule that counts
- so you can play the Mii Fighter as you create it and as the game allows.
- "Bring your own Mii" if you play a different Mii than default.

it's the most logical solution and doesn't have any arbitrary extra rules.

 

[LimitCrown]

How would saying that custom moves and equipment are disallowed in a tournament have arbitrary extra rules?

 

[Yikarur]

You already state in the rules that Customizations are set to off. Why the extras?

 

[ParanoidDrone]

You already state in the rules that Customizations are set to off. Why the extras?

Because just like how you can make a Mii with, say, a 1322 moveset and still use it despite customizations being set to "Off," you can also make a Mii with equipment and use it exactly the same way.

 

[Yikarur]

With Customizations OFF Miis are able to use the moveset you gave them but equipment is not applied.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

With Customizations OFF Miis are able to use the moveset you gave them but equipment is not applied.

Huh, you're right. The circle showing stat biases is still there on the CSS though, which is super confusing.

 

[Dooms]

I don't see why Mii Fighters should be allowed to use their customs if Palutena isn't. It's mind boggling that people think turning customization off is a decent solution if Palutena doesn't have access to her customs while Mii Fighters do lol.

 

[Rajikaru]

I don't see why Mii Fighters should be allowed to use their customs if Palutena isn't. It's mind boggling that people think turning customization off is a decent solution if Palutena doesn't have access to her customs while Mii Fighters do lol.

It's more because the default "Customs off" option allows the Mii Fighters to have any Special they were given, but Palutena doesn't have that luxury and customs have to be on to use her different specials. It's probably a by-product of that situation, since it IS a pain to either make a new Palutena custom in Wii U or the verify that the Palutena somebody brought on their 3DS is 0/0/0.

 

[LimitCrown]

With Customizations OFF Miis are able to use the moveset you gave them but equipment is not applied.

Yes, but it doesn't mean that the other special moves that the Miis can use are not what the game considers to be custom moves. If the Mii Fighters are allowed to use those special moves regardless of whether the other characters can't, then they have an unfair advantage and freedom that the other characters don't have.