Competitive Principles: Mii

[T0MMY]

ok, so you don't care about whether it's unfair or not
as long as it's not MK than it's legal

Ridiculous red herring. Nobody said anything about MK.
The comparison is just not there on either side of the argument.

yeah, not going to bother
have fun with your better low/mid tier matchups, Miis

You already took your facade away; there's no need for anymore red herrings.
For the true meaning of your posts:

if you want Miis to use their customs, why aren't you helping everyone else get their customs (so you can too)

Another ransom attempt. These are getting trite.
Don't drag the Mii players down with some kind of fringe Custom movement. The same arguments don't apply.

 

[mega4000]

Ridiculous red herring. Nobody said anything about MK.
The comparison is just not there on either side of the argument.


You already took your facade away; there's no need for anymore red herrings.
For the true meaning of your posts:

Another ransom attempt. These are getting trite.
Don't drag the Mii players down with some kind of fringe Custom movement. The same arguments don't apply.

It doesn't matter how many times you attack people like us. PKBeam tried to have a conversation with you, but as always just like every custom mii fanboy, you are in denial. Me on the other hand I don't care how many arguments you or the rest of the mii fanboy's give. I'm not gonna accept mii customs until every single custom move is accepted. The best solution is bringing a wii u without creating a mii character, that way there is no idiot triying to play smart saying "oh lol I can create my custom mii!".

 

[Judo777]

Mii height and weight have to be standardized (even if its not the default, it can be agreed upon). They have to be able to be practiced against like all other characters. I need to know exactly how many frames on shield all of their moves are, how many of their moves can be crouched under, how many of their moves hit through platforms, just like every other character. And I shouldn't be forced to spend 75 times as much time learning these properties as I would any other character, and build a spread sheet of kill percentages at all heights and weights.... lol

It has to be consistent.

 

[warriorman222]

It doesn't matter how many times you attack people like us. PKBeam tried to have a conversation with you, but as always just like every custom mii fanboy, you are in denial. Me on the other hand I don't care how many arguments you or the rest of the mii fanboy's give. I'm not gonna accept mii customs until every single custom move is accepted. The best solution is bringing a wii u without creating a mii character, that way there is no idiot triying to play smart saying "oh lol I can create my custom mii!".

So because we want customs moves for Miis, as a starting point, we are fanboys and therefore in denial. He's right about the red herrings: He may be attacking PKBeam, but when you're implying us as unfair, or in denial, it's a teeny bit harder to give perfect respect. Sorry, but insults are insults. Could you give reasons as to why you don't want their customs? Without insults. Please, we're trying to have a conversation here. We don't want to risk this regressing into a flame war.

First, I'm speaking for myself, so you labeling us all as fanboys or something, simply for disagreeing with you is even less fair than banning all customs due to lazyness. At least it's just that don't want to(which is bad), whereas you (not you guys, just you) are branding us al bad(Again, sorry if I offended you, but that's kinds what you're doing), simply because T0MMY has the time to respond to every post here. Second, I'm not opposed to any rule involving customs, b it Mii only, everyone (I'd prefer this), or something. Third we need to take things in steps, because a large push for it all at once could guarantee they never happen. So we start with customization incarnate: Miis.

Since their other specials are allowed by game, it should be easier to start off. It's simply small baby steps. We do care about how unfair it is, everyone has access to the same tools, and if the game allows it, it would mean that the devs went through some work to balance them. All the customs are balanced, they're all equally good in their respective situations, it's just that some are useless in the situations tourneys allow. And if people come to accept these moves on Miis, which are generally called custom moves whether or not they aren't, why not allow them for the rest of the cast? If we get fine with big changes, why not allow widespread smaller changes?

I want to get customs allowed as soon as possible, but trying for everything at once may make TOs think we're trying to force them. When you're "trying" to force someone to do something, and they have the power to make it not happen ever, they will use that power.

Sorry if we're seeming unfair. But again, if it was unfair, because if for some reason only 1 person could pick Miis and they got busted with them, then why would the game allow it? I'm sure someone on Sakurai's team knows about balance. And if none of them did, we'd have another MK right now.

So, if you ignore all the above I don't care. Could you give even 1 reason on why you don't want their customs allowed? Because I think it's simply a place to start, trying for customs all at once doesn't seem to be getting anywhere, so I just thought another approach that would take longer, as to get people used to it faster, would be fine. And if you don't, that's fine. I'm not gonna try and prove you wrong, or demean you, or attack you or disprove you, and if I am doing any of those, I'm sorry. Just wanna know your reason, so we can end at the "agree to disagree" point.

 

[mega4000]

So because we want customs moves for Miis, as a starting point, we are fanboys and therefore in denial. He's right about the red herrings: He may be attacking PKBeam, but when you're implying us as unfair, or in denial, it's a teeny bit harder to give perfect respect. Sorry, but insults are insults. Could you give reasons as to why you don't want their customs? Without insults. Please, we're trying to have a conversation here. We don't want to risk this regressing into a flame war.

First, I'm speaking for myself, so you labeling us all as fanboys or something, simply for disagreeing with you is even less fair than banning all customs due to lazyness. At least it's just that don't want to(which is bad), whereas you (not you guys, just you) are branding us al bad(Again, sorry if I offended you, but that's kinds what you're doing), simply because T0MMY has the time to respond to every post here. Second, I'm not opposed to any rule involving customs, b it Mii only, everyone (I'd prefer this), or something. Third we need to take things in steps, because a large push for it all at once could guarantee they never happen. So we start with customization incarnate: Miis.

Since their other specials are allowed by game, it should be easier to start off. It's simply small baby steps. We do care about how unfair it is, everyone has access to the same tools, and if the game allows it, it would mean that the devs went through some work to balance them. All the customs are balanced, they're all equally good in their respective situations, it's just that some are useless in the situations tourneys allow. And if people come to accept these moves on Miis, which are generally called custom moves whether or not they aren't, why not allow them for the rest of the cast? If we get fine with big changes, why not allow widespread smaller changes?

I want to get customs allowed as soon as possible, but trying for everything at once may make TOs think we're trying to force them. When you're "trying" to force someone to do something, and they have the power to make it not happen ever, they will use that power.

Sorry if we're seeming unfair. But again, if it was unfair, because if for some reason only 1 person could pick Miis and they got busted with them, then why would the game allow it? I'm sure someone on Sakurai's team knows about balance. And if none of them did, we'd have another MK right now.

So, if you ignore all the above I don't care. Could you give even 1 reason on why you don't want their customs allowed? Because I think it's simply a place to start, trying for customs all at once doesn't seem to be getting anywhere, so I just thought another approach that would take longer, as to get people used to it faster, would be fine. And if you don't, that's fine. I'm not gonna try and prove you wrong, or demean you, or attack you or disprove you, and if I am doing any of those, I'm sorry. Just wanna know your reason, so we can end at the "agree to disagree" point.

my reason: I can't use any alternate set aside from 1111 for my main, so why can you? and pls don't tell me I can play as mii fighter too as an answer.

 

[T0MMY]

It doesn't matter how many times you attack people like us. PKBeam tried to have a conversation with you, but as always just like every custom mii fanboy, you are in denial. Me on the other hand I don't care how many arguments you or the rest of the mii fanboy's give. I'm not gonna accept mii customs until every single custom move is accepted. The best solution is bringing a wii u without creating a mii character, that way there is no idiot triying to play smart saying "oh lol I can create my custom mii!".

Building an entire argument on the ad hominem "custom mii fanboy"?
I don't think that argument is going to get very far on the Competitive Discussion boards.

But nice try with sowing seeds of confusion with Mii fighters and a Fringe Custom Movement. Mii fighters should not be an issue and the character is completely outside the Customs game setting problem.

Disrespecting the Smash Community like that has no room here in competitive discussion. That kind of behavior is what @dapuffster must have meant about leaving the Smash community, because I've felt the same way dealing with attempts at using the character I like to play as a pawn in some kind of poorly organized fringe coup de tat which is setting itself up for failure and dragging the Mii players down with it.

Note: It's the fringe group of pro-custom zealots doing this, most pro-custom Smashers are just honest folk who would like a Custom Fighter: ON event to compete in and I like to support their side. Not at all in support of the vocal minority zealots giving the pro-custom and Mii players a bad rap and not afraid to speak up about it.

He's right about the red herrings: He may be attacking PKBeam, but when you're implying us as unfair, or in denial, it's a teeny bit harder to give perfect respect.

Claims as to if anyone was attacking the person rather than the argument need to have evidence to support just the same that claims to ban Mii fighters needs evidence to support.
All claims need evidence or can only be taken at face value, with a grain of salt, and usually not going anywhere in a reasonable Competitive Discussion.

It may be mistaken that I am attacking a person when I attack an argument - this is usually because someone feels deeply attached to their beliefs and mistakes their beliefs as their identity therefore reasoning will be seen as insulting.

It's an honest mistake people make, but one that can be resolved when keeping in mind that claims require evidence.

 

[warriorman222]

my reason: I can't use any alternate set aside from 1111 for my main, so why can you? and pls don't tell me I can play as mii fighter too as an answer.

@ T0MMY , a constant state of hostility versus them isn't going to help anything. Maybe state your arguments more... Nice-like? Pweese?

Back on topic. My answer is probably gonna make you mad. So here I go:

I would prefer you, and everyone be able to use customs, but trying that all at onc ecould have it fail and we may never get another chance. So let's talk about step 1, the only one revolved around Miis.
Step 1: Miis get all their customs. I know you don't like this, but the more steps we take, the higher chance of success. The amount of Mii users are low, so people will hardly notice a difference. Besides, right now 2 of the Miis are the bottom 2 fighters in the game, few people are willing to train with seemingly unviable characters. So if this gets through, nobody will notice a difference. I get to use a character that goes from worst-in-the-game to f**-Diddy -you-auto-lose-to-me. with Feint Jump, Mii is immune to Hoo Hah, and can kill Diddy far earlier around 40-50% with a grab combo. 2 customs moves essentially turn Brawler's Diddy MU from 30-70 to 80-20, and flips around most other MUs.

Since everyone wouldn't be able to use customs, it's good that the uses and effects of each alternate Mii special is clear cut, since all of the moves in their arsenals are cloned or semi cloned, including specials. There is ONE special exception: Grenade Launch. There aren't gonna be a billion combinations, either: inversely to what should happen, Mii is so versatile that instead of a different set for each MU, they're gonna use the same one since it deals with everything, with variation only in Neutral B, Up-B, and very rarely Side-B for Brawler, Mii Swordsman has only one usable set, and I dunno about Gunner. I could make a clear definition on what each one does, later.

Thing is though, each character was made to be fair, to some extent. Diddy is only SS tier right now because of the complainers. If it weren't for that, Diddy'd be an undiscovered mid tier. But nobody's gonna complain about Mii. No matter how good he becomes, even though 1122 Mii is indisputably strong enough to dethrone Diddy, Diddy fever will have to settle down first. He's gonna be like Olimar: abandoned and unknown, so all the users are really good. Olimar is quite good in this game, but he was nerfed so he'll get slept on and end up bottom tier. Each character was made the way they were, but whoever gets complained about the most ends up top tier, and only gets better as the crows mass onto him/her, and techs are found only for this(these) character(s).

Obviously Mii is the only exception to this. When customs were allowed on 3DS, that was the only time stuff were found for them: One-Inch-Punch (a very unsafe DIable OHKO that is only uncounterable at one certain % and that anyone above featherweight laughed at), Helicopter's B&B kill (d-throw at 50%-> Fair-> Helicopter Kick-> GAME!), and other stuff. Now a ton of people have dropped Mii, and will probably pick them up again if their customs get allowed. Then they turn into a less polarizing, less annoying Little Mac that everyone will get used to. There, problem solved, we got used to them quickly, let's get all the other customs too!

tl;dr This is gonna be a very temporary step 1. Then we do the rest, since everyone will be used to it. For exmaple, Diddy is only top tier because complaining, and that phase already came and went for Mii and the One Inch Punch. Honestly, it only countered Rosa, which was a good thing then. Miis won't be a billion MUs, they have one awesome set each. If Mis become overused again, it won't last. And when we get used to them, BRING IN THE TRUE CUSTOMS!

That was a bunch of stuff. I want customs to get allowed quickly, But I don't want to end up globally rejected. If I thought we could get the large request to work, then I' be opposing this. But I don't. And I think you do. There's a very tiny art of my side, now feel free to counter whatever I've said. again won't complain. I'm not trying to be special. I'm trying to get things to work. Me maining Mii is a coincidence. Trust me.

Also thanks for no insults.

 

[T0MMY]

@ T0MMY , a constant state of hostility versus them isn't going to help anything. Maybe state your arguments more... Nice-like? Pweese?

Any proposition of "hostility" was an ad hominem directed towards me and was ironically is more of a hostile act toward a person than any of my arguments laid forth. Any true hostility towards another SWF user should simply be reported to the mods and let them handle it.

Arguments aren't supposed to be nice nor mean, nor anything, they simply are logical steps towards conclusions.

To put it simply: Don't feed the trolls

That was a bunch of stuff. I want customs to get allowed quickly, But I don't want to end up globally rejected.

I disagree with your proposition that Mii fighters get limited to a certain set of Special moves. That violates competitive principles to me and I'd sooner just ban Mii altogether than agree to something so subjective (I also found that TOs don't act responsibility when pushing these rules on their attendees - none of the tournaments I went to even accommodated the Mii players with the default setup they were enforcing).
It just doesn't work well at all - I'm speaking from experience.

You know what does work?
Not banning/limiting for no reason.

 

[warriorman222]

Any proposition of "hostility" was an ad hominem directed towards me and was ironically is more of a hostile act toward a person than any of my arguments laid forth. Any true hostility towards another SWF user should simply be reported to the mods and let them handle it.

Arguments aren't supposed to be nice nor mean, nor anything, they simply are logical steps towards conclusions.

To put it simply: Don't feed the trolls


I disagree with your proposition that Mii fighters get limited to a certain set of Special moves. That violates competitive principles to me and I'd sooner just ban Mii altogether than agree to something so subjective (I also found that TOs don't act responsibility when pushing these rules on their attendees - none of the tournaments I went to even accommodated the Mii players with the default setup they were enforcing).
It just doesn't work well at all - I'm speaking from experience.

You know what does work?
Not banning/limiting for no reason.

I dont mean certain sets. if I said that anywhere, lemme know. I mean and want any set for Miis at the very least, and if I said otherwise anywhere(apart from wanting all cust moves), let me know. I apso know TOs can suck, I got into a situation simikar to your first, except i lost less money and only took an hour to walk home. I hope EVO considering customs will encourage TOs.

 

[T0MMY]

I dont mean certain sets. if I said that anywhere, lemme know. I mean and want any set for Miis at the very least, and if I said otherwise anywhere(apart from wanting all cust moves), let me know.

Well, I was responding to this post about the steps to take allowing the Mii to be used fairly:

I would prefer you, and everyone be able to use customs, but trying that all at onc ecould have it fail and we may never get another chance. So let's talk about step 1, the only one revolved around Miis.
Step 1: Miis get 2222 and 3333, then later all their customs. I know you don't like this, but the more steps we take, the higher chance of success.

Regarding Step 1, I said I was not in favor of this. Either ban Mii outright, or just leave the Mii alone since the game lets them be used like any other character when Custom Fighters is turned OFF.
That's about as far as any argument goes and lets the TO decide which one they want to do.
IMO, it's scrubby to ban characters without competitive reasoning.

 

[warriorman222]

Well, I was responding to this post about the steps to take allowing the Mii to be used fairly:



Regarding Step 1, I said I was not in favor of this. Either ban Mii outright, or just leave the Mii alone since the game lets them be used like any other character when Custom Fighters is turned OFF.
That's about as far as any argument goes and lets the TO decide which one they want to do.
IMO, it's scrubby to ban characters without competitive reasoning.

Oh, lemme edit that.

 

[T0MMY]

There's a local tournament being run and when asked about rules I always point to Apex being the kind of go-to rules at the time. This brought along with it the 1-1-1-1 default Mii ruling.
In a previous local the TO's used Apex ruling and it turned into a debacle. They didn't have the time or resources to spend into creating default Mii on all the setups. When I asked how I was supposed to play in the tournament when the rules weren't being followed by those who made the rules I was given the alternative to upload my own Mii from my 3DS, which I did. However another TO did not think that should be allowed and I had to replay the match.

Now with this next local coming up I'd like to avoid the same issues that are doomed to repeat and brought up a change to rules to be more inclusive of players (better for business the more people show up) and feel like the conversation that ensued better fits here in this thread.
@ Sideslick @Beardbot

it requires quitting out of the game to change your Mii's dimensions.
It's no different than changing the clock in Animal Crossing to see different holidays at your own leisure. It's controlling the game from outside the game.

That's a good point, and I agree that players shouldn't be turning the system and software off frequently. Because players may be inclined to turn the game off to make Miis I think that a ruling stating players are not allowed to take the game offline should be used.
This wouldn't be affecting those players who use Miis without quitting out of the software like a default 1-1-1-1 Mii setup before and a Mii upload, would it?

In addition, if a player wishes to use their own Mii in a tournament-setting, there is a major bias toward 3DS-owners or to Wii U-owners playing on their own setup. There is no way practical way for people outside these groups to play with their own Miis. I understand gaming is an expensive-hobby, but this inherent-advantage to 3DS-owners is the opposite of being "fair" (not to be confused with being "Bair", lol).

I feel like the same could be said about Gamecube adapters which were both difficult to obtain and expensive ($130 is about the price of a 2DS). Any appeal to costs would logically also have those banned causing a bit more than Mii players getting upset.
To be more considerate,a TO could have a tourney-used 3DS for players to create their Mii and upload or require their Mii be uploaded before the tournament starts when setup is scheduled.
his controller so originally the 3DS discussion was showing how players may not attend due to the 3DS ban.

 

[Sideslick]

@ Sideslick @bearedbot

Just a heads-up, you misspelled @Beardbot

 

[T0MMY]

Fixed - now the bot has a proper beard. Such a beard to be envied and adored by all. ([0 0]

 

[Luigi player]

NO ONE disagrees that Custom Moves should absolutely be allowed if they didn't have a logistical problem.

Not true.


As for Miis, the game creators clearly intended for them to be used with customs moves, hence being allowed to use them with customs off. They don't want them to have a truly default moveset, they are "you" ("me") so they're made for the sole purpose of creating characters with different sizes/outfits/moves.
... which is one of the reasons I think they shouldn't be allowed in the first place.

If you really want to go by Sakurais allowance of characters and customs, you should take the for Glory rules as a guideline.