Meta Competitive Impressions: TBH5

[|RK|]

Lol at throwing set 1. Yall a bunch of fools if you really think it did not help me one bit the rest of the games

— Nairo (@NairoMK) October 5, 2015

Lets keep in mind there's strategy to this as well.

That too. I guess he was afraid of being downloaded? Or is he just saying that he didn't come out of set 1 with nothing?

 

[Amadeus9]

How is this in any way a lack of respect for his opponent? Wanting an even playing field isn't the same as "giving poor ZeRo a chance"

You play on an even field from the beginning of the tournament. Nobody had an advantage. Nairo one set ahead of ZeRo didn't have an advantage. ZeRo could have been in winners bracket just as well as Nairo could, in fact anybody could. By sandbagging he was basically saying he wanted to be disadvantaged as opposed to no one having any advantage. I thought people like you could understand this? The only person who was advantaged here was ZeRo because of said sandbagging. It's stupid, he deserved the loss, and he should feel bad. Everyone gets to lose one set. That's how double elim brackets work.

 

[Shaya]

Nairo's young and naive to how those actions are perceived.
Isn't watching people grow up all apart of the fun though?

I had no doubts as it was happening Nairo wanted to have it be completely even pegging by forgoing the first set. He even decided to take the decider to Battlefield, at this point, Battlefield in the 5th match of a set is 100% win rate for ZeRo; little tidbits could very well be in the back of his mind.

But he was naive to think people would respond to his actions as "trying to make history in the most memorable way possible" over "******* around because he could" or "disrespecting zero".
Meh.

 

[Djent]

It's possible to respect Nairo's decision to adapt/troll/sandbag GF1 while disagreeing with it for strategic and theoretical reasons.

At least, that's where I'm at.

 

[Shaya]

I think the main disappointment is, we wanted to see zero pushed to the greatest extent he would have been thus far. Having to deal with two best of five sets with zero being under a lot more pressure would've been much more enjoyable to everyone else.
None of them are obligated to do that though.

 

[JesterJaded]

I think the "strategic" sandbagging for set 1 would have been a lot more practical had Nairo used a legitimate secondary. No amount of downloading is worth a whole set.

 

[SuqAta8]

How is this in any way a lack of respect for his opponent? Wanting an even playing field isn't the same as "giving poor ZeRo a chance"

it already is an even playing field with zero having lost a set already and still alive in losers

 

[HeroMystic]

For me, it isn't even the storyline behind it (the match with Anti was good enough for me). Problem for me is the strategy behind it. Like stated before, downloading is a two-way street. You adapt while your opponent adapts and ultimately the best player wins.

Nairo has constantly lost to Zero in Winner's Finals and then had to win two sets vs Zero in Grand Finals. He had to do the climb just like Zero, and Zero hardly if at all sandbagged. It's honestly expected that Nairo does the same thing.

The only benefit to sandbagging set 1 is to calm nerves, because Game 1 was incredibly tense between that two and Game 2/3 were very relaxed.

 

[NairWizard]

You respect Nairo's inability to respect his opponent?

Imagine if Nairo had lost the first set but won the second, and then he won the tournament. He'd be recorded as the first person to ever win a tournament with ZeRo in attendance, but there would an asterisk next to his win, *But ZeRo flubbed a set in pools. He didn't want the "ZeRo might have won if not for that flub" annotation next to the win. It's really simple and I might have considered the same option in the same situation, though probably I wouldn't have tossed the set.

Are Nairo fans really this delusional?

I thought people like you could understand this?

I know you're an MK main, but please chill with the passive aggressiveness. No need to be this acidic in here, we're just discussing what happened.

 

[Nu~]

Well I guess I'm not looking at this logically/strategically. I just felt that it was cool that nairo saw it as a way to fight ZeRo with everything on the line on an even playing field.

Amadeus9 Definitely don't think nairo should feel bad about it. He had good intentions behind it in his point of view.
There are so many different ways to perceive his decision. It seems unfair to say he should feel bad about what he felt was right.

And what do you mean by "people like you"?

 

[JesterJaded]

Regardless of Nairo's good intentions, flubbing the first set to make the second more hype only to get bodied for the majority of the games was very anticlimactic - which probably contributes to the backlash he's getting.

I will say one thing though... That spike on the vanish recovery was delicious. About time

 

[Amadeus9]

I'm upset for a few reasons.

• I watched a fantastic tournament that ended with sandbagging in the grand finals. This tournament was very enjoyable to watch sans the GFs. That's a disgrace.
• Nairo tries to pass off his sandbagging as playing strategically. He plays a character he doesn't even know how to play in the process
• His fans are defending him like he's some brave god of strategy

I just think it's nonsense. I went from watching some of the best gameplay I've ever seen in Smash 4, between Rayquaza, Anti, and Abadango, to... that. And this tournament is going to be remembered for Nairo's sandbagging in GFs. Stupid.

I know you're an MK main, but please chill with the passive aggressiveness. No need to be this acidic in here, we're just discussing what happened.

Heh

Well I guess I'm not looking at this logically/strategically. I just felt that it was cool that nairo saw it as a way to fight ZeRo with everything on the line on an even playing field.

Amadeus9
And what do you mean by "people like you"?

See NairWizard 's quote. Sorry mate

 

[Ghostbone]

Realistically before the tournament, Nairo would have expected to play Zero in winners and grand finals, having to win 2/3 sets to take the tournament. If he actually played Zero in winner's finals and won, I highly doubt he would have sandbagged first set of grands (since he would have earned his set advantage).

Because Zero got sent to loser's early because of personal issues, Nairo didn't want to take advantage of that, and rather wanted an even footing like what would be the case if they met in winner's finals. It's respectable tbh.

 

[Amadeus9]

Realistically before the tournament, Nairo would have expected to play Zero in winners and grand finals, having to win 2/3 sets to take the tournament. If he actually played Zero in winner's finals and won, I highly doubt he would have sandbagged first set of grands (since he would have earned his set advantage).

Because Zero got sent to loser's early because of personal issues, Nairo didn't want to take advantage of that, and rather wanted an even footing like what would be the case if they met in winner's finals. It's respectable tbh.

If I was going through something rough the LAST THING I would want is to have it used as an excuse for me "deserving" to win or "deserving" to have an advantage. If that is the reason Nairo did this, (I guarantee it's not, more likely he wanted to be able to say he didn't need 2 sets to win vs ZeRo) then that is short sighted, white-knighty bull. Now ZeRo has the idea looming over his head that he should have lost and didn't earn his victory. That mentality is more destructive than it is helpful.

 

[Pazx]

mk main upset that somebody pulls out a pocket mk? shocking.

I don't agree with Nairo's whole "way I wanted to win" bs, I think that was kinda dumb (and possibly saving face). I do however see the strategic advantage of throwing set one, game one was a VERY convincing win for ZeRo and to me I thought it was obvious Nairo was trying to get himself into a better mental state, avoid burning out and get a DL on ZeRo. I'm surprised we didn't see Diddy at any point from ZeRo though, either to avoid the DL or to beat ZSS.

~~~

Biggest thing to take away from this tournament imo is that Mario and Rosalina are both relevant characters without their top players. RIP Luigi.

 

[Amadeus9]

mk main upset that somebody pulls out a pocket mk? shocking.

I don't agree with Nairo's whole "way I wanted to win" bs, I think that was kinda dumb (and possibly saving face). I do however see the strategic advantage of throwing set one, game one was a VERY convincing win for ZeRo and to me I thought it was obvious Nairo was trying to get himself into a better mental state, avoid burning out and get a DL on ZeRo. I'm surprised we didn't see Diddy at any point from ZeRo though, either to avoid the DL or to beat ZSS.

~~~

Biggest thing to take away from this tournament imo is that Mario and Rosalina are both relevant characters without their top players. RIP Luigi.

Did you read any of my posts at all? I only vaguely mentioned his use of MK once. He could have picked Sheik instead and it would have still been sandbagging. I'd still be upset with the result.

 

[Nu~]

If I was going through something rough the LAST THING I would want is to have it used as an excuse for me "deserving" to win or "deserving" to have an advantage. If that is the reason Nairo did this, (I guarantee it's not, more likely he wanted to be able to say he didn't need 2 sets to win vs ZeRo) then that is short sighted, white-knighty bull. Now ZeRo has the idea looming over his head that he should have lost and didn't earn his victory. That mentality is more destructive than it is helpful.

Yeah, this I agree with. ZeRo shouldn't have been pitied. That kind of treatment is demeaning.

Damn there's a lot of debate on this...

 

[Ghostbone]

If I was going through something rough the LAST THING I would want is to have it used as an excuse for me "deserving" to win or "deserving" to have an advantage. If that is the reason Nairo did this, (I guarantee it's not, more likely he wanted to be able to say he didn't need 2 sets to win vs ZeRo) then that is short sighted, white-knighty bull. Now ZeRo has the idea looming over his head that he should have lost and didn't earn his victory. That mentality is more destructive than it is helpful.

Zero didn't deserve to have an advantage, Nairo didn't give him an advantage, he got rid of HIS OWN advantage because he didn't really feel he earned it (never had to beat zero in winner's to stay winner's side), and put them both on an even footing.

Plus the whole, downloading your opponent thing, Nairo got bodied first game so maybe he wanted to study Zero's Sheik before Zero could get a download on his ZSS.

 

[Amadeus9]

Zero didn't deserve to have an advantage, Nairo didn't give him an advantage, he got rid of HIS OWN advantage because he didn't really feel he earned it (never had to beat zero in winner's to stay winner's side), and put them both on an even footing.

Plus the whole, downloading your opponent thing, Nairo got bodied first game so maybe he wanted to study Zero's Sheik before Zero could get a download on his ZSS.

Again, Nairo didn't have an advantage. Double elimination brackets don't favor anyone. You earn what you get. There's a difference between giving up your advantage and putting yourself at a disadvantage.

ON A COMPLETELY DIFFERENT NOTE

I was very impressed with both Rayquaza and Anti. Especially Anti. I've never even really seen him place well at a major tournament before, and suddenly... Woah. The guy's real good. I feel like this is something that could continue as the game gets older... Top players get complacent and stuck in their ways, and stop improving, and suddenly a new threat has leveled up and is going toe to toe with them or better.

 

[Ghostbone]

You can go on about how technically everyone starts on an even playing field but clearly Zero was at a disadvantage that tournament for being uncharacteristically knocked out early because of irl stuff.
Nairo didn't want to take advantage of that, the fact that you can't respect that is baffling.

Also, Anti isn't a new threat lmao.
Learn your history bro

 

[Amadeus9]

You can go on about how technically everyone starts on an even playing field but clearly Zero was at a disadvantage that tournament for being uncharacteristically knocked out early because of irl stuff.
Nairo didn't want to take advantage of that, the fact that you can't respect that is baffling.

Also, Anti isn't a new threat lmao.
Learn your history bro

He(anti) is a new threat in Smash 4. Idgaf about Brawl or PM (in this context). You can try to use seniority to make me look bad but it only does so to you.

Also, it's not a technicality. It's as literal as it gets. I don't care if ZeRo's new puppy died. Nothing outside the context of the tournament matters to me. Also, see above. The fact that Nairo would demean an opponent like that is baffling to me. I knew he was kind of an ass but I didn't know it was that bad.

 

[NegaNixx]

Nairo's Decision to Play with game 1 was a good strategy. It was executed really poorly however.

I've been in multiple tournaments in my life mostly baseball and mostly double elimination. And my teams have been on Winner's side often. When on Winner's side in Grand Finals unless you know you can crush the opponent for free, you do not put your ace staff on. It's not smart long term and is high risk for short term.

Coming from loser's bracket the opponent has momentum, they've played at least one competitive game before the winner, they are warmed up and high off a win. Meanwhile the Winner's side hasn't played. Definitely warmed up, probably insufficiently because tournaments are taxing physically and mentally.

It gives the ability to Download. Loser's Bracket has to put their best forward because they're on the tournament life. They have to fire on all cylinders from the first match. The winner doesn't have to. They can sandbag. They can find holes, weaknesses, kinks in the armour, habits.

Those two things, Downloading empaerical evidence and stopping Momentum are really important in a competitive environment.

Key word being Competitive.

Where Nairo messed up is that the first set was not competitive. Sandbagging means that you don't try your best. It doesn't mean you don't try. That minimizes the amount of habits you get to analyze. Your download is flawed. The momentum stopped is minimal. The one thing it did do was calm his nerves most likely.

I can appreciate and respect the option. But he could have definitely fixed it.

The rest of this is purely theoretical.

He should have played the entirely of the set as Robin or Pit(oo). Robin because his Robin is actually good. And has been proven to be competitive. It's tournament viable maybe not top 8. But it could still have decent success in a tournament of this caliber. Pit(oo) because it's the most neutral/average character he has. Pit gives the most pure download. Because he has an option for every situation without forcing character based habits.

His strategic sandbag, was turned into simply throwing it away. Not because of the concept, but because of the execution. That's where he dun goofed.

 

[Ghostbone]

He(anti) is a new threat in Smash 4. Idgaf about Brawl or PM (in this context). You can try to use seniority to make me look bad but it only does so to you.

Also, it's not a technicality. It's as literal as it gets. I don't care if ZeRo's new puppy died. Nothing outside the context of the tournament matters to me. Also, see above. The fact that Nairo would demean an opponent like that is baffling to me. I knew he was kind of an *** but I didn't know it was that bad.

Anti has always been good at smash 4, probably top 5 in US but never went to tournaments so it was hard to tell. But just because of that doesn't mean he's a new threat. You're implying that Anti just trained up and became a top player recently when he's always been that good.
That's like saying PPMD is a new threat every 6 months because he only goes to tournaments that often. Everyone in the melee community knows he's good and isn't surprised when he places well, exact same logic applies to Anti.

If real life doesn't matter to you that's your outlook, but to call Nairo an ass when you're the one being a douche here (not caring if someone's puppy died lmaooooo) is pretty ironic.

Nairo didn't throw the first set because he was sympathetic of Zero's irl circumstances anyway, he just wanted to beat him on an even playing field.

 

[Amadeus9]

Anti has always been good at smash 4, probably top 5 in US but never went to tournaments so it was hard to tell. But just because of that doesn't mean he's a new threat.
That's like saying PPMD is a new threat every 6 months because he only goes to tournaments that often. Everyone in the melee community knows he's good and isn't surprised when he places well, exact same logic applies to Anti.

If real life doesn't matter to you that's your outlook, but to call Nairo an *** when you're the one being a douche here (not caring if someone's puppy died lmaooooo) is pretty ironic.

How do you know if someone's good if they never go to tournaments? Your logic is falling apart.

How someone conducts themselves in tournament is different from how they perform. I fail to see the irony.

 

[Ghostbone]

How do you know if someone's good if they never go to tournaments? Your logic is falling apart.

Because he's played vs other top players and they all say he's just as good as them.
Just because you didn't know that doesn't mean my logic is falling apart loooool.

 

[NegaNixx]

How do you know if someone's good if they never go to tournaments? Your logic is falling apart.

How someone conducts themselves in tournament is different from how they perform. I fail to see the irony.

Anti plays a lot of high profile characters as well as a more natural affinity for smash in general. It's like when ESAM came back with Pikachu after his hiatus. No one would count him out. Now theoretically Anti is a better player with higher level practice partners. We have past smash games. As well as information from other players as proofs to this.

The only point I agree with you on is that your opponent should not be sympathetic if you come to a tournament with IRL baggage. Everyone has some. Getting into the tournament mindset is a part of competition. Out side of tournament however is entirely different.

 

[DanGR]

My first thought when I saw Nairo lose game 1 with ZSS and then proceed to pick Robin game 2 was "Well he's down a game, and he probably hasn't warmed up. Maybe he's using the rest of the uphill set 1 to warm up, comfort himself, and calm down. (maybe also try and condition Zero some? who knows) There's also no point in giving Zero extra time to adapt to his ZSS play, so doing all of this with different characters seems intelligent."

 

[Dcas]

Because he's played vs other top players and they all say he's just as good as them.
Just because you didn't know that doesn't mean my logic is falling apart loooool.

It sorta is tho. Actions should speak louder than words, in thise case, matches should speak louder .

 

[hypersonicJD]

Nairo lost game 1 with Zero Suit Samus and though: Hmm... Maybe I need to calm myself down and see how serious Zero is playing right now. I could sense it in that failed Flip Kick on Town and City. That could have been the game but he choked and didn't wanted to keep chocking. So he used Robin and MK to calm himself and analyze it.

He maybe also wanted to fight ZeRo at his best (We Goku Now ladies and gentleman) and threw away those sets to win properly and fair.

Talking about Anti. Even ZeRo said that he has one of the best players he encountered (I don't really remember exactly what he said). And he actually proved it to us. He is really good and he almost kicked ZeRo out of the tournament. He was going to end ZeRo's streak.

I really enjoyed this tourney. Amazing players, amazing moments, some of the hypest Smash 4 matches in history and major upsets (Ally getting eliminated!? That was insane. I don't think nobody expected that. I didn't expected ESAM losing to Dabuz either).

 

[Mettie7]

This thread is hilarious omg.

Regardless if Nairo had a reason to sandbag the entirety of the first set, it's still pretty unsportsmanlike... I lost a lot of respect for this man.

 

[Stromp]

I assume Nairo sandbagged on purpose to even things up. Still disagree with that. You're there to win

 

[SuqAta8]

it was almost annoying watching him give up the first set in the grand finals

he can play with zero after the tournament ffs

giving yourself a negative edge for the sole purpose of fueling your own ego postmatch is just lolbad

 

[Stromp]

it was almost annoying watching him give up the first set in the grand finals

he can play with zero after the tournament ffs

giving yourself a negative edge for the sole purpose of fueling your own ego postmatch is just lolbad

No one will ever know for certain why he did that, but jeez grand finals is not the place to play around

 

[Mettie7]

tfw pools was more fun to watch than grands...

 

[Stromp]

tfw pools was more fun to watch than grands...

Pools were pretty awesome though. Pretty much every game was super hype

 

[Ffamran]

How do you know if someone's good if they never go to tournaments? Your logic is falling apart.

I think it was a trend that Anti and I believe, Neo, are really good players who show up really "late" to compete. They spend all their time figuring out how the game works, how characters work, what characters to play, etc. With the age of the internet allowing so much information to be archived and shared, that's just a bonus for them and shortens their time. If we didn't have all of this, they probably wouldn't show up until 5 years into a game's life. That worked for Melee, but it's not going to work for Smash 4 when probably, Smash 5 is announced by then. I don't know if there's anything else about Anti that would hold him back from competing much, but I believe from what I remember hearing during a Xanadu, in the case of Neo, he doesn't compete much because of medical conditions with his hands - I think he has trigger finger.

 

[Amadeus9]

I think it was a trend that Anti and I believe, Neo, are really good players who show up really "late" to compete. They spend all their time figuring out how the game works, how characters work, what characters to play, etc. With the age of the internet allowing so much information to be archived and shared, that's just a bonus for them and shortens their time. If we didn't have all of this, they probably wouldn't show up until 5 years into a game's life. That worked for Melee, but it's not going to work for Smash 4 when probably, Smash 5 is announced by then. I don't know if there's anything else about Anti that would hold him back from competing much, but I believe from what I remember hearing during a Xanadu, in the case of Neo, he doesn't compete much because of medical conditions with his hands - I think he has trigger finger.

I'm not sure if I worded it wrong, but this is exactly what I meant. It's exciting to think about and see the rise of players that are waiting to take their place at the top.

 

[Ffamran]

I'm not sure if I worded it wrong, but this is exactly what I meant. It's exciting to think about and see the rise of players that are waiting to take their place at the top.

Well, the way you worded it, I think people thought you said nobody's good unless they actually play the game even if they were good in previous games. The trend is that so long as Anti and Neo continue playing Smash, their ways of playing it will always involve them taking extensive time to figure everything out before competing unlike everyone else who just dives in. Anti just gets bonus points for practicing with ZeRo all the time. Their way of playing just doesn't work out for everyone. Others prefer to compete as they practice versus Anti and Neo's approach of practice, practice, and practice before competing. Then you have really, really late bloomers who won't show up until the last years of the game's life. Those are kind of bittersweet since you wished you'd seen them play right then and there 2 or 5 years ago.

 

[Kaladin]

No one cares whether or not you approve of a personal decision of a top player. Nairo wanted to do it; it is Nairo's right as the dude that got to grands to do what he wants. He doesn't have to answer to spectators/twitch chat.

And Amadeus9 Chill with the personal attacks. https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/ad-hominem

 

[Jandlebars]

No one cares whether or not you approve of a personal decision of a top player. Nairo wanted to do it; it is Nairo's right as the dude that got to grands to do what he wants. He doesn't have to answer to spectators/twitch chat.

And Amadeus9 Chill with the personal attacks. https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/ad-hominem

Didn't watch the Grand Finals myself, but I completely understand why viewers would feel rather frustrated with Nairo's first set, regardless of whether it was done for strategical decisions, or to fulfil his ideal of sportsmanship, or to prove to himself and others that he deserved to win, without question.

Then again, Nairo, being a competitor at a high-level tournament, should have no qualms whatsoever about how spectators think of his actions: he is there to win, and to win it however he wants (within the rules of tournament play, of course).

Not saying anyone isn't entitled to their opinion, but there's nothing to be gained by bring declarative in this kind of discussion.