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Official Competitive Character Impressions 2.0

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TTTTTsd

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To break my silence, if the implication of Kazuya's jumpsquat is "it is to make his tilts easier" (those being ones involving upward inputs) then it would also mean he would be the first (and so far, only) character who could do upward tilts out of his jumpsquat! If this is the case, god forbid, his OoS will actually be kind of wild, because that would open the gates for Twin Pistons OoS.

The likelier answer is that its because Upforward and Upback tilts are there to serve as your "Traditional" forms of jump/short hop pressure, since they likely count as "Airborne" and thus can hop over throw hitboxes due to how they work in this game, and also probably crush lower aimed attacks
 
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meleebrawler

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Something I'm confused about is the double-forward input on Left Splits Kick, does it actually require tapping? I also think people are looking at it's reflector properties the wrong way, it may be too slow as a reaction (and Kazuya can just jump and fire lasers over any spam anyway), but using it up close against those who like to kill or start combos with projectiles can probably lead to funny scenarios.
 

Wigglerman

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Something I'm confused about is the double-forward input on Left Splits Kick, does it actually require tapping? I also think people are looking at it's reflector properties the wrong way, it may be too slow as a reaction (and Kazuya can just jump and fire lasers over any spam anyway), but using it up close against those who like to kill or start combos with projectiles can probably lead to funny scenarios.
From what we saw in the presents, yes. It's a double forward tap then A.
 

DJ3DS

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I wouldn't be surprised if ROB's arm rotor is toned down; he can get chains off gyro that carry you offstage and kill at about 50%. I hope Link and Ganon get some buffs but if they haven't yet they probably won't. Ganon wouldn't be so bad if his recovery wasn't abysmal. I'd like to see side B not cause freefalling.
ROB has a guaranteed kill on every character in the game at 0% on ledge with a Nair if he has gyro in hand. At the same time, the move won't kill at well over 100 if you're not close to ledge, and has an absurd amount of lag (seriously, if you shield it, drop shield and smash attack. You have time.) which makes it a poor reflector.

This isnt a defense of the move; just making the argument that if you want to balance it without making it effectively useless it's going to take a lot of tweaking.

Personally I think the combo in itself is not that big an issue - it's really hard to land on a good player who is playing to avoid it - but that simply having the item in hand is such an effective conditioning tool.

A side note: many of the other characters can zero to death ROB in equally stupid ways with his own item. The ROB discord has tested it extensively. Counterplay along these lines still has much, much room to develop at all levels.
 

Iron Maw

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What I really see if Kazuya can crouch dash into Gates of Hell. If true he's literally gonna be "don't get grabbed" the character lmao
 

Wigglerman

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What I really see if Kazuya can crouch dash into Gates of Hell. If true he's literally gonna be "don't get grabbed" the character lmao
He probably can't do it OUT of the dash as only the shown moves seemed to be usable during the dash. However, depending on the reactions of the Kazuya player they might be able to do it before the opponent recovers. So dash up and do the input to grab them as the dash comes to an end. Just doesn't seem like the dash is GOH cancelable.
 

meleebrawler

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To break my silence, if the implication of Kazuya's jumpsquat is "it is to make his tilts easier" (those being ones involving upward inputs) then it would also mean he would be the first (and so far, only) character who could do upward tilts out of his jumpsquat! If this is the case, god forbid, his OoS will actually be kind of wild, because that would open the gates for Twin Pistons OoS.

The likelier answer is that its because Upforward and Upback tilts are there to serve as your "Traditional" forms of jump/short hop pressure, since they likely count as "Airborne" and thus can hop over throw hitboxes due to how they work in this game, and also probably crush lower aimed attacks
Yeah, like the Pokken cast's universal overheads (Up+X) and how they plow through grabs no matter what, unlike most normals that can get cancelled out of done too early.

Why has no one made Pokken Heihachu jokes with Kazuya in Smash yet?
 

Ziodyne 21

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:ultmythra: air dodge got nerfed and Neutral B scales with weight now. This means that Killing and Recovering will be a bit harder for her . Honestly I really to think most Aegis mains will likely still stick mostly using :ultpyra: since she likely has the better disadvantage now disregarding Foresight shenanigans



:ultmarth: And :ultbanjokazooie: got lots of buffs and so did all the Mii's


Apparently :ultminmin recovery of all things got nerfed as well. The tether activates on frame 7 now from 5. That could be fairly significant too
 
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Arthur97

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Already nerfing Mythra? That seems a bit extreme. Also, can anyone translate what the thing on Pyra's side smash means?
 
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Ziodyne 21

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Already nerfing Mythra? That seems a bit extreme.
So her airdodge has been normalized and her Neutral B does not ignore weight-scaling which was kinda silly in the first place. They also seem like slaps on the wrist.

Although Mythra no longer having her exceptional airdodge as a crutch for her recovery issues may be something I guess
 
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Arthur97

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So her airdodge has been normalized and her Neutral B does not ignore weight-scaling which was kinda silly in the first place. They also seem like slaps on the wrist. Although her recovery is likely looking legit bad
Yeah, the lightning buster thing seems more like a bug fix (though then why is Roy's nair still similarly janky?) but aren't pretty much all of her dodges off? And if they were just normalizing them, why is Pyra's still worse than average?
 
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StrangeKitten

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Didn't think Min Min needed more nerfs, at least not yet when we haven't seen much of her offline, and ROB, G&W, and Pika all remain untouched. Glad we finally got some Banjo buffs, but they're in the wrong places. He needs some combination of a better low% combo game, better stats on Wonder Wing (either faster startup or make the weak hit a good amount stronger), and better kill power (either a scooping hitbox on up tilt, or a safer option for killing such as one of his other tilts now killing) to not be so underwhelming. Unless bair now kills a good amount sooner, which it doesn't sound like it will, these changes won't help him much.

Also dang, feel like it was too soon for Pyra and Mythra nerfs, given we also haven't seen much of them offline.
 
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Ziodyne 21

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Like I said earlier. The are likely going to save any big or potentially meta changing balance changes for when the Final FP2 character patch. Where hopefully we may have a better idea of what the offline meta actually be
 
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Rizen

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This patch seems to show the devs favor looking at the Japanese meta. Min hasn't been super big outside Japan, not enough for nerfs anyway. Pythra tweeks look more like little fixes than things intended to change their power level. The Banjo and mii buffs were good. Poor Link and Ganon miss the buff train yet again. That sucks.
 

DougEfresh

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Finally some Banjo buffs! But not where they are needed to improve his combo game unless back air’s angle leads into any set ups
Call me a "glass half-full" kind of guy, but I appreciate that the dev team buffed the duo at all, and like having a better horizontal and vertical kill option with a new and improved fsmash and utilt, respectively. The former was already a pretty strong move, so increasing its kill power will make ledge traps even more threatening (and make for a better anti-air punish on jump-happy opponents), while utilt killing earlier helps with dthrow mix ups, making BB > Utilt a better kill confirm, and platform-sharking/strict anti-air kill option as well. The lower knockback angle on bair seems to create better tech chase situations, and probably improves edgeguarding/gimping as well.

I understand the temptation to improve Banjo's combo game, but that can easily get toxic imo. These changes are nice QoL improvements to the duo's kill power, but I'd rather see fdata and/or damage improvements to make neutral wins and punishes more rewarding overall. If that happens though, I think the bear and bird will be in pretty good shape!
 

Ziodyne 21

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Like I said earlier. The are likely going to save any big or potentially meta changing balance changes for when the Final FP2 character patch. Where hopefully we may have a better idea of what the offline meta actually be
This patch seems to show the devs favor looking at the Japanese meta. Min hasn't been super big outside Japan, not enough for nerfs anyway. Pythra tweeks look more like little fixes than things intended to change their power level. The Banjo and mii buffs were good. Poor Link and Ganon miss the buff train yet again. That sucks.

Well the Mythra airdodge nerf was meant to patch that Invicible ledgegrab trick you could pull. So she no longer has that as well as a Ness-tier airdodge as a crutch for recovering
 
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StrangeKitten

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Like I said earlier. The are likely going to save any big or potentially meta changing balance changes for when the Final FP2 character patch. Where hopefully we may have a better idea of what the offline meta actually be
There's just one problem with that: we'll be getting the final FP2 character for the first time, and won't know what adjustments that fighter needs. I really hope the devs focus on balance patches for a good while after we get our final character. It's unlikely, since they seem to have gotten much better with balance, but I do hope we avoid another Bayonetta situation, and I hope we avoid the reverse of that as well. I would like the final FP2 character to be at least decently viable, naturally. And maybe, since the devs won't be busy making a new fighter and stage and everything, they can put a greater focus on balancing what's already there. I know support for Ultimate does need to end someday, but six months or so, and a patch or two of buffs and nerfs where needed, would be greatly appreciated after we receive our final fighter.
 

Thinkaman

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EWGF is 2 frame, so that's... a thing.

Also you can only hold (E)WGF A button for 5 frames or you get Dragon Uppercut, which is annoying.

No OoS u-tilt nonsense.

Damage is high! On just about everything.

Super Armor on down-b seems VERY generous.

Double Jump physics suck though, and up-b is much more vulnerable after than "you can act out of it" might suggest.

Can't up-b and side-b in the same jump (in any combination) as alluded to in the reveal.

You lose Rage when you take 40% more damage, and each grab whiff counts as 8%. (Numbers could be rough)
 

The_Bookworm

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Not too many changes, but it is as it follows:

:ultmarth: Got some tipper adjustments. Dash attack and up tilt both got their tippers buffed, as they have more damage and knockback, as well as easier to land sweetspots. Down tilt also got its sweetspot larger.

Unfortunately no adjustments to his sourspots, which is what he really needs in my opinion (after testing, the sweetspot adjustments doesn't seem to be too big), but it nice he at least got something after so long.


:ultbrawler: Flashing Mach Punch got its reach increased, a very welcome change to the move. Onslaught got both its damage and knockback buffed. Head-On Assault has more knockback and does even more shield damage.

Nice buffs to these three specific moves, but nothing too tier changing for the character as a whole from what I see.


:ultswordfighter: Airborne Assault has more damage and knockback. Stone Scabbard has more damage and knockback on the last hit. Blade Counter invincibility and counter detection comes out sooner, while it has less endlag on hit. Power Thrust's hitbox comes out sooner, effectively reducing the startup.

These buffs are interesting, as they are buffs to some of lesser used special moves. However, these changes fixes nothing about the character, and the few Swordfighter players remaining are simply going continue using the special moves not listed here. Chakram and Reversal Slash are too important for his playstyle, and they are still going to pick the other two up Bs over Stone Scabbard. The character still down horrendous as a result.


:ultgunner: Laser Blaze's change is confusing. It says "Increased the amount of time for additional button inputs to continuously use attacks.", which implies that you have a longer window to shoot another laser after shooting one. If that is the case, then what is point of this change?
Anyways, Lunar Launch comes out sooner and Cannon Jump Kick has its invincibility extended (didn't even know this move even had invincibility). Absorbing Vortex has less endlag, perhaps to match Ness' version? For reference, pre-patch Gunner magnet ends at frame 27, while Ness' ends at frame 25. If so, then this is nice buff.

Similar to the other two Miis, it is changes mostly to its lesser used special moves. I do think these changes are more helpful than Swordfighter's changes, but I don't think it is going to change the character much at all in terms of viability, especially since Gunner players usually use Arm Rocket and Bomb Drop anyways.


:ultbayonetta: Jab finisher has obtained more knockback and an adjusted launch angle. This seems to notably improve the move's KO potential at the ledge, perhaps being one of the reliable "jab KO" moves like Bowser Jr. Too bad everyone still easily drops out of the move when they are midair, which unfortunately limits the usefulness of this buff to an unnecessary degree.
Down smash comes out a bit sooner. The more interesting change it to Witch Time, as countered projectiles now has a longer Witch Time duration. This improves the move's niche as a counter-zoning option, although the counters other issues remains untouched.

Again, another selection of changes that seems nothing tier changing. However, the route Bayo's buffs have taken are interesting, as they specifically improves Witch Time's niche as a counter-zoning option.


:ultbanjokazooie: After two years of receiving virtually nothing in patch notes outside to their ledge attack, the duo finally got buffed.
Up tilt and forward smash both have increased power, and back air got its final hit adjusted knockback.

Ok... so it is not areas he really needs them in. Nothing to his frame data, combo game, or awkward hitboxes (up tilt still lacks a scoop hitbox), just... he hits a little harder to two of his moves and back air is now better as a very niche setup option. Unless I am missing something here, Banjo's buffs seems pretty disappointing, and is very likely not going to change their placement against the cast.


:ultminmin Took a notable hit on her up smash. It is now one frame slower (frame 7 -> 8), its reflector detector starts up later, and it KOs a bit later. The bigger nerf is to her up B, as it ledge grab detection starts later (frame 5 -> 7). Aka, her already bad recovery is now even worse.

She received mostly slaps on the wrists, but I am not sure why they decided to nerf her recovery of all thing.


:ultmythra: Received the same consistency stuff as with Pyra (as listed below).
Lightning Buster is now no longer set-weight, and now KOs at different weight classes as normal. Seems to be more of a bug fix than anything.

More interestingly her airdodge now has less invincibility. Note: invincibility. The distance of the airdodge remains the same. This is a very interesting change. You guys remember my post about how Mythra's dodges are slower than the rest of the cast to compensate for Foresight? That is not the case for her airdodge, as it was pretty better than anyone else's. It is a change that helps Mythra's airdodge actually compensate for having the mechanic.

Outside of that, Mythra's changes are very minor and will not affect the duo's tier placement.


Minor stuff:
:ultyounglink: Consistency change to up smash.
:ultolimar: Forward smash is easier to sweetspot.
:ultrosalina: Star Bits, when used in reverse, now puts Luma on front of her.
:ultryu: Red Hadoken multi-hits now connect better.
:ultsteve: Minor glitch fix with Minecart.
:ultpyra: Made jab combo connect better by making jab 2 have more hitstun. Pushbox on front of Pyra while charging forward smash has been lessened, similar with Joker at 6.0.0.


Overall:
Mii Sword, Mii Gunner, Marth, and Banjo got a few buffs, but not to any of the essential areas they need to be better characters.
Same case with Mii Brawler and Bayonetta, but I do find their changes to be rather fascinating.
The changes to the Aegis are fairly inconsequential, and more fixes than anything.
Min Min nerfs are ones that she will feel, but I do think it will come up as slaps on the wrists all things considering.

Fairly minor balance patch in the end.


---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

In the meantime, I have been fooling around with :ultkazuya:.

He feels awful to play as for me.
Between his slow frame data, 7 frame jumpsquat, and the way his jumps work, he feels like playing with a suit of armor in a game where everyone feels smooth to at least move around in.

That being said, I noticed that you can completely stop your aerial momentum during his double jump with a move, even with an aerial.
Not sure how super practical this is, since you likely don't want to be in the air as Kazuya (plus I don't think his aerials are super great), but it is something to be aware of.

Also :ultkazuya: has a weight unit of 113, one unit heavier than :ultpiranha:. This makes Kazuya the 8th heaviest character in the game. This is only three units lighter than Charizard and Incineroar, who sits at 116. Kazuya is a beefy boy, although this can make him combo fodder as well.

Anyways, I am probably going to stop playing him for now. The next time I jump as this character, I am going to pull my hair out...


Poor Link and Ganon miss the buff train yet again. That sucks.
Link doesn't need any buffs.
That being said, Ganondorf has indeed been dealt a dirty hand once again.
 

Arthur97

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Alright, new guy is really annoying to fight if just because of so many moves seeming to finish. Namely his combo and throws.
 
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Envoy of Chaos

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Do you like intangiblity? Kazuya has you covered this guy has it EVERYWHERE lmao.

His Dorf Ftilt has it on the foot the move is dangerous as hell, especially the angle it launches

His up tilt has full body and arm that makes Terry jealous

His down tilt has FULL character intangiblity right before the move comes out

Wavedash has FULL character intang for a few frames at the start which then transitions into a generous amount a for a few more frames.

EWGF has full body before the move comes out which transitions into upper body during the active frames

Up air has full leg during the move.

It’s on everything, those are just a few moves, this character will not struggle with closing space at ALL.
 

meleebrawler

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EWGF is 2 frame, so that's... a thing.

Also you can only hold (E)WGF A button for 5 frames or you get Dragon Uppercut, which is annoying.

No OoS u-tilt nonsense.

Damage is high! On just about everything.

Super Armor on down-b seems VERY generous.

Double Jump physics suck though, and up-b is much more vulnerable after than "you can act out of it" might suggest.

Can't up-b and side-b in the same jump (in any combination) as alluded to in the reveal.

You lose Rage when you take 40% more damage, and each grab whiff counts as 8%. (Numbers could be rough)
Well, I've certainly never had trouble doing Wind God Fists and Dragon Uppercuts when I wanted either. Electric is trickier, but not really that much better than regular fist in terms of combos, though extra shield safety is nice as it is his primary burst option.

Jumping Knuckle nair is a lot better than it looks, has surprising duration while still being very quick all around.

Non-crouching down+A can actually be shield-cancelled for a fakeout, and you'll still move forward a bit when doing so.

When in combo doubt, Rising Toe Kick. Kazuya may not like going high but he will make the most of this in the little height he likes by juggling with this.

Stonehead is the best starter for using aerials in combos.

And finally I need to experiment more with Spinning Demon (shoryuken input+B) to see what the invincibility can slip past.

Also he stinks at free-for-alls and his crowd control is terrible.
 
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Iron Maw

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Been watching MewKing's stream for a bit & Kazuya has a 12 frame invincible special dash! There no way in heel he's have trouble closing on anyone in once optimized. Honestly everyone is still experimenting with like only half his moves & he's already looking scary
 

KirbySquad101

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Trying out the character for the first time, and to share Bookworm's viewpoints a little bit, he definitely feels like a character that needs time to vibe with. It kind of reminds me of how :ultsteve:'s mining and :ultminmin's double arm gimmick felt clunky to us at firste, but Kazuya feels different in the sense that between his unique movement options and that clunky jumpsquat that feels hella awkward to use after playing so many characters with buttery smooth jumpsquats, he kind of reminds me more of characters from older Smash games, more specifically Smash 64 and Melee.

The comparisons to Smash 64 don't just stop there, because between his damage output that would make :kirby64: blush and the absurd amounts of hitstun his attacks put enemies in, he almost feels right at home with Smash 64 cast from that angle; just give him a driller DAir that deals 30% damage lol.

His hitboxes also feel... silly. I'm used to melee characters having some sort of visual animation to indicate their hitboxes stretch beyond their limbs (like with :ultkirby:'s BAir for instance), but it feels like Kazuya doesn't even have those accompanying him and he ends up somehow hitting opponents three feet away from him (they also feel pretty wide vertically, or at the very least, his forward tilt does). A part of this is because he basically always shifts forward for his attacks, but even with that in mind, I was surprised just how many attacks I landed despite being so far away from my opponents.

His frame data numbers don't look quite pretty, at least in terms of first glance at start-up. Quick experimentation via training mode, I found that his start-up frame data on stuff like 10 Hit Combo (Jab), Oni Front Kick (Up Tilt), Twin Pistons (UpTilt), and Nejiri Uraken (Down Tilt) to be Frame 6, 12, 9, and 15 respectively. Not... exactly ideal for a boxer, but this is also a boxer with Ganondorf-tier damage who also seems to have very little problems closing the gap compared to other boxing characters like Kirby, so I imagine this was intentional to prevent from him basically phasing through everything and go full ham on his opponents (thank lord).

Despite his below average jumpsquat, there is quite a bit of use I'm seeing with his aerials. Neutral aerial in particular lasts a long time and gives him access to easy 60% damage combos.
 
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Initial thoughts from two top level players. I do wonder how this character will play neutral? Or land, for that matter?
I think Kazuya is going to have polarizing opinions on the first day (I even think that because when he works, OH DEAR he works, but then when he doesn't, it just sucks to be a punching bag), so it's not surprising people, top level or not, are already divided. He is not easy to command given he has so many moves and uses non-Smash traditional inputs (it's so easy to misinput F-Smash or F-Tilt for Dash Attack or Left Splits Kick and the same goes the other two moves). I feel like his auto-turnaround is also much slower compared to the Shotos and Terry, so he also doesn't feel familiar in that sense either. People really have to lab out his moves in order to get a better feeling for him (especially for that Crouch Dash of his), so I give him a month or so before we get some less extreme opinions on Kazuya.

That said, for such a simple thing, I am actually surprised that Up-B OOS is a decent option. Not a great option, but it can work out if the opponent lands too close to his shield. Also, for another simple thing, I have also learned that it's better to do Side-B or Up-B then double jump for his recovery, kind of like how Bayonetta and Mega Man can recover. His Up-B has a good amount of ending lag, which makes him vulnerable against aerials and on-stage moves, and his Side-B doesn't travel far; however, his double jump, which operate like PSI Boys and Mewtwo's double jump, doesn't have either issues, but he's needs to do some move if he has to protect himself.
 
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The_Bookworm

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The CPUs are ascending. LMAO

There was a problem fetching the tweet


:ultkazuya: This character is a major headache to think about viability-wise.

Armor and invincibility everywhere, but also absurdly slow frame data and a 7 frame jumpsquat.
Probably the most damaging and power-driven character in the game, but also feels equally (if not more) exploded himself if he cannot get anything started.
Immense ground movement and safety from his crouch dash, but also extremely clunky when it comes to the air.

He doesn't feel like a character that is part of Ultimate. He feels like his own entity doing his own thing in this game.

I think he is a pain to deal with in lower level play, but things are uncertain when it comes to higher level, even mid level play.
The way he is designed feels like he could equally end up either as a top tier or as a bottom tier at the same time. He has traits of both.

Still not very sold on the character's viability as a whole, but we will see.
 

Gleam

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IMO, in the best case scenario, you're going to have a select few players who really understand Kazuya and know how to use him to his fullest, but in the most part, this is a character who, regardless of how good he could potentially be, is locked behind a huge wall of complexity and strange flaws that most players just aren't going to bother with when there are tons of characters more than capable of gaining Top Tier results without any of the complexity to go along with it.

And sometimes, the best path really is the simplest path.
 

KirbySquad101

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Knockback/Damage changes confirmed for the characters (sinced they're seemed to be a lot more of that than start-up changes):

:ultminmin
Sweetspotted USmash: KBG 80 -> 77 (early hit)/76 (mid hit)/75 (later hit)

:ultbanjokazooie:
UTilt: KBG 114 -> 119
FSmash: KBG 94 -> 97
BAir: KBG 144 -> 136
Angle 46 -> 41

:ultmarth:
Sweetspotted Dash Attack: Damage 12% -> 13%
KBG: 55 -> 58
BKB: 95 -> 93
Sweetspotted UTilt: Damage 9% -> 10%

:ultbayonetta:
Rapid Jab Finisher: KBG 117 -> 121
Angle: 55 -> 43

:ultswordfighter:
SideB 1: Damage 12% -> 14%
KBG: 90 -> 85
Landing Hit of UpB 1: Damage: 5% -> 8%
KBG: 110 -> 93

:ultbrawler:
SideB 1: Damage 1.5% -> 2% (Multihits), 5% -> 7% (Finisher)
KBG: 170 -> 144 (Finisher)

Landing Sweetspotted Hit of DownB 1: KBG 48 -> 56, BKB 120 -> 122


Only the Miis and Marth seemed to have substantial knockback changes, Banjo and Bayo kinda got the short end of the stick, and Min Min's USmash nerf feels negligible.
 
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Emblem Lord

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Hot take

Kazuya is so foreign that I truly think any discussion about his tier placement is utterly pointless right now and will remain so for many months to come. He is far too complex and extreme for the typical smash player to really get a handle on in terms of viability. That is not an insult. It is just the truth. Smashers do not even have a full grasp of Terry and the Shotos, then comes Kazuya.

Let his player base figure it out and then the community can analyze him in due time.

For now he looks cool. He has his pros and cons.

Most of the community is not playing this character. He is not a smash character. It takes a special kind of player to click with him. He will not be common at all.

Luckily there are over 80 characters. There is someone for everyone.

My personal thoughts: I have been playing this character in Tekken since I was a kid. This feels like Kazuya. I like it and I am very pleased. Sick costumes and awesome music too. Today is a good day.
 
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