Official Competitive Character Impressions 2.0

[Kokiden]

My initial impressions are he's incredibly fun, but will drop of in terms of competitive viability.

I just don't see that startup and endlag working out for him long term. Sucks because I was hoping he'd be incredible viability wise.

Balance is good and all, but I can't help but think that the end result kinda sucks at times to the point where it makes most characters lacklustre in general. Ah well.

 

[blackghost]

In terms of matchups... Speaking entirely in <24 hours off the cuff...

I suspect he hates , who is everything Sephiroth dislikes in a single character. Fast and low dash, threatening kill power that loves tall targets, solid mid-range projectile, and one of the best anti-Shadow Flare moves in the game that works at any %.

also takes Shadow Flare off the table, but otherwise hates being outranged and isn't dashing in on much. Probably good for Sephiroth.

doesn't wreck Shadow Flare as much as you'd think--it does nothing for them when they are at 0%, and Sephiroth is free to continue to apply pressure while they obsess over healing. More so for Ness, the odds might often end up in Sephiroth's favor.

Revenge is... pretty good. It's no Rebel Guard or Bucket, but it's probably the fourth best response after PSI Magnet. (And it works at 0%) You will only Revenge the first bolt, but you won't get hit by the other two. And Revenging one Shadow Flare is still enough for more than a 2.0x multiplier! Against a quick, single Shadow Flare, Revenge is probably the best. But note, Revenge on Flare is pretty bad, and Revenge on its bigger brothers will even still get hit (and wrecked) by the followup explosion. But Revenge is great agaisnt big slow swords, and Incineroar's low kill percents means less time dealing with wing mode.

Bounce is obviously amazing when you have it, and you have a little bit of time to fish for it when needed. While Hero really dislikes being outranged and outsped, his projectiles are pretty great for the range Sephiroth would prefer to fight. Probably a good matchup for Hero.

Pocket is okay. Obviously it takes the other Flares completely off the table, but that's true for almost any reflector. But while Pocket is a better-than-average defensive answer to Shadow Flare, it's not great. A single Shadow Flare is nothing to write home about even with damage doubled. And unlike other reflectors, Pocketing gives no coverage from the incoming punish Sephiroth was going to be trying regardless--not a relevant disadvantage for almost any other projectile in the game. Shadow Flare might be the one projectile where getting to use it later at a time of your choice isn't better than reflecting it immediately.

That said, Slingshot is great against Sephiroth, it really shines. So I think the matchup still favors them? And having a "merely better than average" answer to Shadow Flare is still a big net positive, despite downplaying it.

Other low commitment reflectors are also a helpful tool against Shadow Flare but hardly take it off the table. For some higher commitment ones, it's less common that they will offer a meaningful improvement to your situation.




and are also infamously low and quick, but don't have the brutal level of punishes that Arsene brings to any commitment. Both are also vulnerable to Shadow Flare, so it's less concerning.

I was worried that tall characters like would have an especially bad time against SH fair/bair, but it's still too high; all tall characters are much shorter when dashing, which helps.

can out-do Sephiroth at his strengths, and even hedge his bets with Armor when Shadow Flare is on the table. Seems fine for Shulk.

has powerful mid-range stuff (like Joker or Hero) that Sephiroth probably hates. I have no idea if this will make up for the speed issue. One of the matchups I have the least idea of.

probably hates that sword, which seems like an amazing anti-float tool.

sounds favorable for Sonic? Going off my heuristic that Sephiroth hates run speed, I don't immediately see how it couldn't.

and have the burst punishment to make the most of Sephiroth's commitments, like Joker. They'll hit hard and kill him early.

seems fine; he's super fast, runs low, and hits hard up-front. He doesn't care about Sephiroth's disadvantage tools, but he loves Sephiroth's low weight; "You mean I only have to land as many side-Bs as I do to kill Pikachu, except they are as easy to land as vs heavies?" Even Shadow Flare matters less in this matchup, because Mac exchanges are so fast and viseral. Less wing time is great too, and Sephiroth has fewer options than most for taking KO Punch off the table.

isn't so lucky. This just seems horrible for him. What are you going to do to get in, Wizkick? Ganon is just big, slow, and the perfect victim for Sephiroth to oppress. and probably doesn't have a fun time either, and I can't imagine being happy.

hates a lot about Sephiroth. She hates uair, she hates u-smash, she hates fair and bair, she hates Shadow Flare. Pound against Lucina is one thing, but against Sephiroth-level disjoint it won't help you much. All her favorite edgeguarding moves get eaten by Octoslash, and he's not really jugglable. If she had Smash 4 SHAD, it would actually help a great deal in this matchup; alas.

I'd also say shadowflare is out vs bayo. Bayo gets hit then suddenly sepiroth is in the position of being pressured by his own move thanks to witch time. It's the rob top issue.
Sepiroth is also very vulnerable to witch time in general.
But he also should destroy her when she's trying to get back to stage be has various options but dair just beats all of bayo recovery options.

 

[KirbySquad101]

If I were to theorycraft on how each of my characters might do against :

- I feel like would hate the combination of Seph being long-ranged and mobile, but Seph also having to rely solely on two fairly committal buttons, neither of which are ground buttons or dip far horizontally (FAir and Bair) would leave him really open to low-profiling dash attacks, jump-catching NAirs, or crouch shenanigans, I find. Sephiroth having a fast fall speed does leave some potential for good baiting shenanigans, however, and that massive UAir/USmash will do wonders in pressing his advantage against G&W (I mean... what is a tiny key gonna do about that?). I'm leaning towards the MU being even or in G&W's favor if only because I find Seph's sword walling to be far more exploitable than someone like Ike's or Cloud's.

- I'm on the fence of , because I think Kirby's bigger issue in the MU is going to be Sephiroth's projectiles. Kirby being able to low profile so much of his attacks along with being absolutely relentless up close actually give him pretty big boons against Sephy, but he doesn't have much to answer against Flare explosions beyond constantly face-tanking them, which leaves him more than open to one of Seph's shield breaking options. Being able to reach pretty far below the ledge against Final Cutter also forces Kirby to recover high, which isn't all that easy given his slow air movement, and he faces a lot of the same problems G&W does in trying to land against someone with such massive anti-air tools. I'm leaning towards Kirby most likely losing, but I can very well see it being even as well.

- Funny enough, I think he might have the edge against (oh, the irony!). Cloud's Climhazzard faces a lot of the same problems as Kirby's Final Cutter in terms of recovering, and having a combination of being tall/having slow buttons leaves him a lot more vulnerable to Sephiroth's sword swings than Kirby or G&W, and Cloud's more defensive playstyle gives Sephiroth a lot more breathing room to do... well, Sephiroth things. For instance, Gigaflare doesn't give a single hoot about Limit Camping either. I can very well see this being in Sephiroth's favor. Cloud's DTilt is probably going to be a big boon for him in landing a hit against his foe.

 

[MrGameguycolor]

Boop:

So I saw this on the Smash Sub-Reddit:

https://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/comments/kfrog8
Crazy isn't it.

 

[RetrogamerMax]

Boop:

What? I said I saw it on Reddit.

 

[Rizen]

Boop:

has the worst counter in the game, easily. It breaks from strong hits, its attack can be reflected, it hits on one side and doesn't even reflect. Terrible move.

 

[Wunderwaft]

has the worst counter in the game, easily. It breaks from strong hits, its attack can be reflected, it hits on one side and doesn't even reflect. Terrible move.

Not necessarily, it's an unorthodox counter that's for sure. But it's status of always delivering an attack even if the opponent doesn't hit the shield gives it a different dynamic than usual counters.

 

[Kalashnikov]

has the worst counter in the game, easily. It breaks from strong hits, its attack can be reflected, it hits on one side and doesn't even reflect. Terrible move.

It technically isnt even a counter. It has the properties of a counter but it can be used on its own, as a (fairly laggy) move.

 

[Nobie]

Something I noticed is how NOT safe rolling or air dodging away from Sephiroth is. You do that, thinking you're safe, and Sephy doesn't even have to read your roll to still punish it. That's how long that sword is.

Matchup-wise, this is only theory, but I can see Mewtwo being a hyper-volatile matchup that winds up being even and miserable.

Sephiroth probably poops on Steve five ways from Sunday. He can deal with Minecart without even trying, and it's gonna take a whole lot of blocks to even stop Sephy from reaching.

 

[Minordeth]

Yeah... if you are a character that can live without shielding too much, you will do fine. But sephiroth, design-wise, seems built around getting you to be afraid.

He has more shield break setups than probably any other character in the game. It doesn’t matter if he is negative on block - he wants you to block - to cower.

Void got shield breaks without literally knowing how. Larry Lurr’s initial video was a shield break compilation.

Sepiroth has insane tech chase options, ledge trapping options, and shield-beating options. Once OWA activates, he becomes even more threatening.

He is more like ZSS than Shulk or Byleth. He has good defensive options, good to fantastic mobility, and a highly adaptable move set built for your ability to condition and capitalize on habits.

They seemed to design Sepiroth to enable you to be a villain. Lull the opponent into thinking they have the upper hand, then casually demoralize them - instilling fear into future interactions.

 

[The_Bookworm]

Off-topic from , but patch 10.0 fixed some very annoying glitches associated with .

Video coming later but here's a summary on the Olimar glitch fixes

He can now attack out of Up-B while a pikmin is returning to him on the ground

Pikmin no longer become the leader when dying

Now if a pikmin stuck in fsmash endlag is the leader the next in line will attack

— Liquid | Dabuz (@DabuzSenpai) December 18, 2020

These fixes altogether will make the character more consistent.

 

[DJ3DS]

I would probably look at as another character may end up struggling with. His size and fallspeed makes him very easy to combo and techchase if ROB gets in, and ROBs frame data is much quicker. On top of that, gyrotoss out of shield is extremely strong here due to height.

Beyond that, ROB just doesn't really care about any flare ledgetrapping shenanigans, can delay for a while and can go high if he really wants. Then there are smaller interactions; you can't counter ROBs arm rotor and ROBs long lasting up and down throws make using grab armour to escape Shadow Flare much easier.

 

[SwagGuy99]

and probably doesn't have a fun time either, and I can't imagine being happy.

I have something to say on all three of these. These are some early impressions after playing the matchup as Luigi, Doc, and a few games as Kirby.

• Feels like an even matchup. I think in general Sephiroth has a lot of trouble hitting small characters and Luigi's back-air feels like a solid option to make it really hard for Sephiroth to hit him with certain moves. His neutral-b is too reactable to be too much of an issue for Luigi either. I think if Luigi gets in, Sephiroth's options become extremely limited. He can shield, which isn't too good for him since his OOS options are pretty mediocre. I've found that Sephiroth gets shield poked a lot as well by moves like dash attack and Luigi Cyclone, likely because of how tall he is. So shielding if Luigi gets close to him isn't really a good option. His best option if Luigi is close is probably n-air which still isn't amazing, at frame 12(?). His smash attacks are also pretty easy for Luigi to whiff punish and f-tilt seems to be as well if not spaced properly. I think Luigi gets some mileage out of fireballs and z-air against Sephiroth like he does against other swordies, however, it's not nearly as much as against some (like Marcina) because of how much range Sephiroth has. I think that something Sephiroth can do well is catch Luigi's landings with up-air, up-smash, dash attack, etc. because of how floaty Luigi is. I think that Sephiroth can make getting to and getting off the ledge kind of scary for Luigi. Sephiroth's side-b is annoying as well because it can act as a delayed way for Sephiroth to escape combos. Although Luigi down-b is actually an option you can use to clank with Sephiroth's side-b if he tries to hit you with it. Also worth mentioning but z-air is still a fairly safe option for ledgetrapping Sephiroth with. I feel like a lot of characters won't be able to ledgetrap him well because of the range on his up-b, but Luigi doesn't suffer from this issue. Overall, the matchup feels awkward for both sides and I'd say it's probably even (at least based off of early impressions).
• Surprisingly... not that bad. Probably a slight loss, but I don't actually think it's worse than that. Sephiroth gets quite a bit less use out of side-b and neutral-b because Doc does have a reflector and Sephiroth does have to respect that. Sephiroth is fast but he's also kind of large, so like Mewtwo, Pills end up being pretty good against this character. Sephiroth's options to deal with pills are not very good and landing pills can give Doc easier openings against Sephiroth. And like with Luigi against Sephiroth, Sephiroth's options if Doc gets in at close quarters are not very good. Sephiroth also dies fairly early as well, something that Doc really likes. Doc is also generally hard for Sephiroth to hit (like Luigi) since he's fairly small and short, so that's problematic as well. I'm probably making it sound like Doc wins the matchup but I don't think he does. Sephiroth's still a sword character and his n-air is fairly threatening for Doc since it puts him in a really bad spot. Sephiroth can wall Doc out semi-effectively with his sword, although it's still a commitment for Sephiroth to throw out a move. If Doc has thrown out a pill already or Sephiroth misses, Doc might be able to get a punish in. I think that recovering is really hard for Doc in this matchup though while Sephiroth has a fairly easy time recovering against Doc. I don't think this matchup is awful at all, but I don't think it's good either.
• I was messing around with a friend last night and decided to go Kirby against his Sephiroth. Nothing I'm about to say is all too crazy and I don't think it necessarily makes or breaks the matchup, but it is worth noting. Kirby's crouch seems really good against Sephiroth's side-b. It completely avoids it. Potentially his f-smash and up-smash as well but I don't think those matter as much. Again, this isn't huge or anything, but I do think that Kirby's crouch being able to completely avoid side-b is quite good for him in the matchup, as side-b is a huge part of the reason as to why I think Sephiroth is potentially a decent character.

 

[Nathan Richardson]

When it comes to pokemon trainer Seph probably adores getting ivysaur, is meh when facing charizard and absolutely dreads squirtle. Squirtle is just too short and whiff punishes Sephiroth perfectly while dancing away from his attacks, charizard has ground mobility stats that rival Sephs and his upB's super armor can punch through seph's dair and still hit him above it while also packing enough raw power to get early stocks. The issue is Seph has superior specials and whiff punishing especially with powerful moves is a no go for Zard due to being so laggy with them.
Ivysaur though is just...stuck....Seph has range that ivysaur wishes it had while also having a comeback mechanic and proper kill setups. Ivysaur can't catch up to Sephiroth especially when he goes into OWA mode and overall Seph's specials are superior.

 

[Firox]

has the worst counter in the game, easily. It breaks from strong hits, its attack can be reflected, it hits on one side and doesn't even reflect. Terrible move.

I gotta admit, it really is bad. No idea why they didn't just let it reflect projectiles.

 

[Rizen]

Not necessarily, it's an unorthodox counter that's for sure. But it's status of always delivering an attack even if the opponent doesn't hit the shield gives it a different dynamic than usual counters.

Name one counter that's worse than it. I'll tell you as a player, countering on one side only is a huge disadvantage. There have been so many times that I've been caught backwards and been unable to counter. But at least K.Rool's counter is one of the stronger counters and reflectors when it lands.

 

[TTTTTsd]

Name one counter that's worse than it. I'll tell you as a player, countering on one side only is a huge disadvantage. There have been so many times that I've been caught backwards and been unable to counter. But at least K.Rool's counter is one of the stronger counters and reflectors when it lands.

Seph's counter can be B-Reversed so it avoids the pitfalls that K. Rool's does in some ways. This is probably worth mentioning.

 

[Firox]

Name one counter that's worse than it. I'll tell you as a player, countering on one side only is a huge disadvantage. There have been so many times that I've been caught backwards and been unable to counter. But at least K.Rool's counter is one of the stronger counters and reflectors when it lands.

To be fair, the one upside it has is that it's damage/knockback amplification feels greater than most other counters. I KO'd a Mario mid stage at 80% off a Fair without any rage. Not sure if anyone can verify the damage/knockback amp ratio.

 

[meleebrawler]

Everyone is going on about how so-and-so characters can use Shadow Flare's auto-trigger to their advantage with counters and such, I have to wonder if we're not ignoring the very obvious asterisk that Sephiroth kinda has to be currently indisposed to pull that kind of thing off reliably. I say this because I just fought a Joker who did what you would expect him to do with the flares around him and, unless I was reeling from a prior hit, it was pretty simple to just grab him out of his guard otherwise. The time you spend thinking about how to deal with flares ideally is the time you are not pressuring Sephiroth as much as you should be.

Reflecting or absorbing them while he's around is just an invitation for him to cut you in half, and preparing for counters of any kind invites grabs.

 

[Wunderwaft]

Name one counter that's worse than it. I'll tell you as a player, countering on one side only is a huge disadvantage. There have been so many times that I've been caught backwards and been unable to counter. But at least K.Rool's counter is one of the stronger counters and reflectors when it lands.

To be fair, the one upside it has is that it's damage/knockback amplification feels greater than most other counters. I KO'd a Mario mid stage at 80% off a Fair without any rage. Not sure if anyone can verify the damage/knockback amp ratio.

I've looked up Sephiroth's data and his counter does a 1.2x return damage, not too shabby as it's the standard for all sword fighters. Then I looked at his OWA version of the counter and it does a 1.5x damage return, for reference that's as strong as K. Rool 's counter. Feel free to disagree with me but with this much firepower combined with the auto-attack function of the move I don't see this counter as bad.

 

[zeldasmash]

Shadow Flare is just all around a great move because once it hits, the entire dynamic changes. Someone earlier said it best: "If Shadow Flare hits, it's not about what Sephiroth will do, it's about what the opponent is going to have to do." It forces the opponent to completely change how they play and no matter what they choose to do, Sephiroth will likely always come out winning or be at an advantage:

Air Dodge? Not only is it likely you can still get hit by (especially if you have 3 of them) but Sephiroth can easily punish the air dodge.
Spot Dodge? Same as air dodge and it requires you to shield.
Shielding? You are inviting Sephiroth to pop your shield like a balloon and eat a Gigaflare that will likely kill you.
Roll away? Lag will be enough for Sephiroth to punish you. And Sephiroth, especially with OWA, can catch you with his mobility.
Reflect/Absorb? You are inviting Sephiroth to grab you and put you in either a tech chase scenario (which Sephiroth excels in) or potentially a kill confirm.
Parry? That requires you to shield which Sephiroth already wants you to do so he can destroy it.

Sephiroth has the means to force you to play on the defensive and to block and has an answer for a lot of the options the opponent does to avoid the Shadow Flare. Once you are hit by Shadow Flare, you are at Sephiroth's mercy and not a lot of characters can do much about it. Joker is probably the only one that comes to mind at the moment that has a move that is essentially anti-Shadow Flare with Rebel's Guard as it essentially wants you to hit Joker to get Arsene out.

 

[Rizen]

Seph's counter can be B-Reversed so it avoids the pitfalls that K. Rool's does in some ways. This is probably worth mentioning.

There's more to it than that, as you can see here the attack only hits in front of Sephiroth completely missing the opponent who ends up behind and punishes him. It's not good if S is attacked from above or below either.

I've looked up Sephiroth's data and his counter does a 1.2x return damage, not too shabby as it's the standard for all sword fighters. Then I looked at his OWA version of the counter and it does a 1.5x damage return, for reference that's as strong as K. Rool 's counter. Feel free to disagree with me but with this much firepower combined with the auto-attack function of the move I don't see this counter as bad.

It has its uses for sure but you still haven't named one counter that's worse. As I displayed above, only hitting on one side is a big deal. ...now that I think about it, it's possible Peach's is worse as that only hits on one side and doesn't reflect too. However, I don't think Peach's counter can be reflected (?) and it doesn't break from strong attacks so it's probably better.

 

[Game7a1]

There's more to it than that, as you can see here the attack only hits in front of Sephiroth completely missing the opponent who ends up behind and punishes him. It's not good if S is attacked from above or below either.

It has its uses for sure but you still haven't named one counter that's worse. As I displayed above, only hitting on one side is a big deal. ...now that I think about it, it's possible Peach's is worse as that only hits on one side and doesn't reflect too. However, I don't think Peach's counter can be reflected (?) and it doesn't break from strong attacks so it's probably better.

The spores from Peach's Toad Counter can be absorbed and reflected. It also does not scale with damage, which is good for weak hits (as it does more than what a counter could usually do) but worse for strong hits.
Funny enough, I also tested Sephiroth's Scintilla, and it too can be absorbed. Weird, I thought the move would use physical-based projectiles, not energy-based ones,

 

[**Gilgamesh**]

I feel like the community is reacting the opposite to how they did Steve. With Steve they w were looking purely at potential and acting like he is this great character that needed time.
With sepiroth people are being overly cynical. And looking for reasons why he is bad.
"Well if you whiff you are screwed"
I'll be blunt if you are whiffing with sepiroth, that's on you. That is not a shortcoming of the character.
Next this character is not zoning with his blade he has multiple projectiles for that. Side b is a massive pressure tool that almost every character has to respect. The only one that doesn't I've seen so far is bayo.
Right now I'm more concerned with plausible uses for his moves which I never got with Steve. I watched esam struggle with the character but exam was trying to play him like a rushdown character.
I watched void place fox in a repeatable edge trap with no means of escape with shadow flare. This character has massive competitive potential tial but he will likely struggle online. If 2021 sees us back in person 9n a large scale he'll definitely benefit.

I agree;

Look, Sephiroth is not an online type of character; he requires spacing and one of his biggest tools; f-tilt is worse on wifi when you factor in the fact it's very good at covering ledge get-up offline. On, Wifi it's harder to react to opponents and much more importantly; harder to space. Did I also mention ledge trapping is also harder. I also play and notice a significant improvement offline; it makes me wonder why I even play online at times. I seriously ask people to just go in training mode and just practice his movement and then try to play wifi and you'll notice the difference.

Also Sephiroth is not a beginner or intermediate character to play. He probably has one of the best edge-guarding tools in the form of his up-b Octoslash because of how ridiculously disjointed and active it is (reverse octoslash is literally dangerous vs many characters). This character rewards being able to ledge-trap effectively along with edge-guarding at the right moment. I expect people opinions on him to be better once the online meta goes away. That being said; his f-smash is under-tuned. The sweet spot seems to be small along with the fact the non-sweetspot is weak. This is bad considering how committal the move is. I do see him having problems with rush-down characters to an extent because his quickest aerial is nair which is too small to really challenge against pressure.

Also; I think yall are nuts. Sephiroth counter does insane damage. When he was in OWA form Dabuz did around 48% from a Daisy nair off of counter along with the fact that it has high knockback. Yeah it doesn't reflect projectiles which does suck however you use what you got. Sephiroth counter is just that; a counter for physical attacks. Use it for reads and for edge-guarding. I been watching streams of top players and his counter is definitely better than most because it does absurd damage and knockback when activated.

 

[Kokiden]

I think Sephiroth's movesets are pretty good.

They're not safe to do though.

It'd be great if they reduced startup and end lag but I highly doubt it. I think these 2 alone are going to make him not great viability wise.

I remember Leffen saying he thinks seohiroth seems designed for competitive play but I just don't see it unfortunately.

I hoped Sephiroth would be amazing as **** since it's freaking Sephiroth, but I think the honeymoon phase is cooling already and some can already see that he's just ok.

Just fought an amazing captain falcon player in elite. I couldn't even react or do anything because he's too slow.

 

[DougEfresh]

I think Sephiroth's movesets are pretty good.

They're not safe to do though.

It'd be great if they reduced startup and end lag but I highly doubt it. I think these 2 alone are going to make him not great viability wise.

I remember Leffen saying he thinks seohiroth seems designed for competitive play but I just don't see it unfortunately.

I hoped Sephiroth would be amazing as **** since it's freaking Sephiroth, but I think the honeymoon phase is cooling already and some can already see that he's just ok.

Just fought an amazing captain falcon player in elite. I couldn't even react or do anything because he's too slow.

I can appreciate your concerns here and you're free to your own opinion of course, but don't you think this is jumping the gun just a bit to be all doom and gloom about Sephiroth? It's only been like 36 hours since he's been playable! I do agree for now that his high start up and endlag will be a hindrance to his viability, but only to the extent that he's unlikely to be a top tier character.

I'm still waiting to see his full frame data values for his kit (particularly safety on shield), but after playing him more tonight I think it's likely not going to be as bad as I first thought in terms of how punishable his moves are as long as you use proper spacing (especially the ones you'll use most in neutral: ftilt, fair and bair). He seems to be particularly adept at hard punishing bad and/or excessive defensive options as well because of the massive disjoints and kill power he has on almost all his moves outside of throws.

Also, as others have stated already, it's possible that rushdown characters such as Falcon could prove to be problematic for as we learn more about his MU spread over time, but I would not let a one off experience in elite smash be a contributing factor to any less-than-optimistic early impression you have of Seph regardless of how good the player actually was. Reaction times are substantially hindered online and mashy characters like Falcon benefit way more from the lag than someone like Sephiroth who appears to require more calculated positioning and spacing to use his tools to the fullest (especially because of his less than desirable start up and cooldown frames).

The one thing I wasn't able to use to full effect as much as I would've liked to is OWA. How that gets used and optimized will be an integral factor in his level of competitive viability once the dust settles Imo, but overall, I think this character is likely to be pretty good in spite of the slow frame data.

 

[Djmarcus44]

D DougEfresh There is a video that shows Sephiroth's frame data. https://youtu.be/u2EtDVvU0m8

 

[Iron Maw]

Also; I think yall are nuts. Sephiroth counter does insane damage. When he was in OWA form Dabuz did around 48% from a Daisy nair off of counter along with the fact that it has high knockback. Yeah it doesn't reflect projectiles which does suck however you use what you got. Sephiroth counter is just that; a counter for physical attacks. Use it for reads and for edge-guarding. I been watching streams of top players and his counter is definitely better than most because it does absurd damage and knockback when activated.

Lets not forget even if it gets broken it actually doesn't help opponent much because Seph doesn't get hurt. Their attack still get absorbed and Seph can just be whatever so there is no real risk to him. I'm not seeing how the worst counter in the game cause can you break it.

But yeah I've watching top players get nutty mileage out of that move.

 

[DJ3DS]

Shadow Flare is just all around a great move because once it hits, the entire dynamic changes. Someone earlier said it best: "If Shadow Flare hits, it's not about what Sephiroth will do, it's about what the opponent is going to have to do." It forces the opponent to completely change how they play and no matter what they choose to do, Sephiroth will likely always come out winning or be at an advantage:

Air Dodge? Not only is it likely you can still get hit by (especially if you have 3 of them) but Sephiroth can easily punish the air dodge.
Spot Dodge? Same as air dodge and it requires you to shield.
Shielding? You are inviting Sephiroth to pop your shield like a balloon and eat a Gigaflare that will likely kill you.
Roll away? Lag will be enough for Sephiroth to punish you. And Sephiroth, especially with OWA, can catch you with his mobility.
Reflect/Absorb? You are inviting Sephiroth to grab you and put you in either a tech chase scenario (which Sephiroth excels in) or potentially a kill confirm.
Parry? That requires you to shield which Sephiroth already wants you to do so he can destroy it.

Sephiroth has the means to force you to play on the defensive and to block and has an answer for a lot of the options the opponent does to avoid the Shadow Flare. Once you are hit by Shadow Flare, you are at Sephiroth's mercy and not a lot of characters can do much about it. Joker is probably the only one that comes to mind at the moment that has a move that is essentially anti-Shadow Flare with Rebel's Guard as it essentially wants you to hit Joker to get Arsene out.

There is also the universal counterplay of the opposing character grabbing Sephiroth and throwing him to abuse throw invincibility. Works better if you have a throw with a long duration.

 

[Kokiden]

I can appreciate your concerns here and you're free to your own opinion of course, but don't you think this is jumping the gun just a bit to be all doom and gloom about Sephiroth? It's only been like 36 hours since he's been playable! I do agree for now that his high start up and endlag will be a hindrance to his viability, but only to the extent that he's unlikely to be a top tier character.

I'm still waiting to see his full frame data values for his kit (particularly safety on shield), but after playing him more tonight I think it's likely not going to be as bad as I first thought in terms of how punishable his moves are as long as you use proper spacing (especially the ones you'll use most in neutral: ftilt, fair and bair). He seems to be particularly adept at hard punishing bad and/or excessive defensive options as well because of the massive disjoints and kill power he has on almost all his moves outside of throws.

Also, as others have stated already, it's possible that rushdown characters such as Falcon could prove to be problematic for as we learn more about his MU spread over time, but I would not let a one off experience in elite smash be a contributing factor to any less-than-optimistic early impression you have of Seph regardless of how good the player actually was. Reaction times are substantially hindered online and mashy characters like Falcon benefit way more from the lag than someone like Sephiroth who appears to require more calculated positioning and spacing to use his tools to the fullest (especially because of his less than desirable start up and cooldown frames).

The one thing I wasn't able to use to full effect as much as I would've liked to is OWA. How that gets used and optimized will be an integral factor in his level of competitive viability once the dust settles Imo, but overall, I think this character is likely to be pretty good in spite of the slow frame data.

I wouldn't say I'm going full "doom and gloom" as you've put it. Just an observation for now.

It's not just a once off either. He's just not great against rush down characters. I've got good internet connection and it's fast, so I rarely experience lag, which I'm grateful for since I'm lucky in that regard.

I'm not saying he outright sucks either. I've already said his moves are good. Add to that his general mobility helps a lot too. I've called him good earlier in the thread before as well.

Just going with my gut for now. It's like how back when Joker got released I could tell straight away Joker was going to be top tier and one of the best in the game and others lay it in me that I was wrong... (I wonder what those people think now? Screams of "he's OP please nerf!" tell me I was right but I never thought he was OP or needed nerfs).

I'm going to stick with him personally since I play with my favourites, not according to tier lists, but we'll see with time how much staying power he has with the wider community I suppose.

 

[StrangeKitten]

I think Sephiroth's movesets are pretty good.

They're not safe to do though.

It'd be great if they reduced startup and end lag but I highly doubt it. I think these 2 alone are going to make him not great viability wise.

I remember Leffen saying he thinks seohiroth seems designed for competitive play but I just don't see it unfortunately.

I hoped Sephiroth would be amazing as **** since it's freaking Sephiroth, but I think the honeymoon phase is cooling already and some can already see that he's just ok.

Just fought an amazing captain falcon player in elite. I couldn't even react or do anything because he's too slow.

It's your day... 1? 2? Seph against a Falcon that most likely has a year+ of online practice. I can still see Falcon as a tough matchup for Seph, because his stuff is pretty hard to react to even offline. But you shouldn't take it as a sign that Seph is bad. For one, it takes a lot of practice to really get proficient with a character. For another, it's worth noting that online is practically a different meta entirely - one in which Falcon only gets slightly worse, but probably hurts Seph a lot more. You're not wrong or anything for feeling the way you do. Just something to keep in mind

I'm feeling a lot more positive on Seph upon my second day of playing him. I don't play online since the lag is horrible for me, so take my against-level-9s input with a grain of salt since CPUs are very, very imperfect. But I'm already starting to steamroll a bit, and starting to see that Seph is indeed more canon than glass. It makes me feel like he'll end up as a strong character, at least offline. Bummer that it'll still be a while before we'll see offline events again. Oh well, hopefully MkLeo can show us a lot of good with online Seph.

Also, Shulk's counter is probably worse. It can hit if used on long-range stuff, but it whiffs on so much else.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

The initial response to every DLC character is understated. I remember when Joker came out the prevailing "wisdom" was that he was not a good character because he was took weak outside of Arsene and it was too easy to just game around Arsene. Obviously that take was very wrong; Joker was a good character even outside of Arsene, Arsene's meter build mechanics are actually stupid (only comeback mechanic in the game that strictly benefits the user, never disadvantages them if they have a lead), and Arsene is overwhelming which is kinda a big deal. The real reason people didn't think Joker was good in the first few days was because everyone was bad at using Joker at first because they had a lot of experience using every other character and no experience with Joker. As we've gotten later in the DLC release and have hit over a year of experience with most characters, this experience gap has gotten worse, and maybe outside of Steve who was just so weird people were able to put aside a lot of judgment, we've had this same response to every release (part of Steve getting a positive community take was probably that the initial experience playing him is that he felt like garbage too so people, being naturally contrary creatures, wanted to disagree with that feeling as a group). Realistically, it will take at least a month for anyone to be actually good with Sephiroth in the same way people are good with the rest of the cast, and the only real conclusion you can reach from seeing Sephiroth lose a lot early on is that he's probably not extremely overpowered. I don't think, on simple merit, any DLC character much worse than pre-nerf 4 Cloud could ever get a positive response, and no character in Smash Ultimate is as good as pre-nerf 4 Cloud to be clear on that point.

That being said, I really like Sephiroth's chances of being at least decent. He just dominates space in a way few others do. I think Min Min mostly outspaces him, but I think he wins the normals spacing war against the entire rest of the cast so that's pretty good. Unlike a lot of the heavy spatial control characters, he's actually kinda slippery in disadvantage thanks to his honestly very good up special and other various things that just work in his favor (even his low weight can help him out just by minimizing the low percent abuse he's subject to). He's not Samus-esque or anything (you know, the way she's just impossible to really exploit), but he's also very far from being a Bowser shaped pinata or anything. He also has a lot of very dirty traps and massively rewarding options in read situations; I feel like his advantage state is a rich well of just pure fraud and nonsense waiting for us to dive in and mostly allowing for Sephiroth to compound his advantages to a massive extent. To me what that means is he's a character built to win big in advantage, contest neutral very strongly, and not lose all that badly in disadvantage. Doing well in two phases of the game and okay in the third is a good recipe for success.

I have a lot of game theory thoughts on a lot of his various dynamics and some match-ups and such, and it's taking a lot of self restraint not to go all in on this discussion on counters (how could a counter that actually hits a feint or whiff and thus covers multiple options possibly be looked at as worse than a counter that covers just one precise option instead?). Honestly I only have one evening of local play with opposition that is bluntly much weaker than I am, and given the current state of affairs, I suspect most people are in the same boat or worse (let's be real; this game's online is really bad so online testing isn't exactly great for learning either). It's fun to speculate which is I guess the point of this thread so don't take this as a general criticism, but I do think it's important to keep in mind that we're flying twice as blind as we usually would be on value speculations here.

I will say if he feels bad against faster characters I wouldn't attribute it to him in specific so much as, when you're bad with a new character (which we all are), it's very natural to play slower and get overwhelmed when the game moves too fast. This causes a bigger phenomenon in the community in which fast characters are usually believed to be advantaged in almost every match-up (and slow characters believed to lose every match-up), and it's all kinda a mirage based more on what's easy/hard to learn versus what's good in the long run. Again, not to go too far on way too little data, but my gut says team speed vs Sephiroth is probably about fair (each side has their own game that can fundamentally work, and it's down to who can do it better), Sephiroth should mostly win against other swords because sword vs sword the bigger sword is usually at an advantage, and I'd be pretty scared of those Snake/Samus/Duck Hunt camp characters who are going to grind the game to a halt and make your frame data a problem of when do you find the time to hit them when they're all the way over there and everything in-between is exploding. I expect a ton of nuance to develop and a lot of more specific match-ups to emerge over time of course, and my intuition is no absolute, but this is what I believe in any case.

 

[Kokiden]

It's your day... 1? 2? Seph against a Falcon that most likely has a year+ of online practice. I can still see Falcon as a tough matchup for Seph, because his stuff is pretty hard to react to even offline. But you shouldn't take it as a sign that Seph is bad. For one, it takes a lot of practice to really get proficient with a character. For another, it's worth noting that online is practically a different meta entirely - one in which Falcon only gets slightly worse, but probably hurts Seph a lot more. You're not wrong or anything for feeling the way you do. Just something to keep in mind

I'm feeling a lot more positive on Seph upon my second day of playing him. I don't play online since the lag is horrible for me, so take my against-level-9s input with a grain of salt since CPUs are very, very imperfect. But I'm already starting to steamroll a bit, and starting to see that Seph is indeed more canon than glass. It makes me feel like he'll end up as a strong character, at least offline. Bummer that it'll still be a while before we'll see offline events again. Oh well, hopefully MkLeo can show us a lot of good with online Seph.

Also, Shulk's counter is probably worse. It can hit if used on long-range stuff, but it whiffs on so much else.

That's fair.

I don't think he's bad btw. I think he's quite good overall. Just not top tier like how some people were expecting before he came out because of who he is.

I think is moveset is pretty good too.

 

[SwagGuy99]

• I was messing around with a friend last night and decided to go Kirby against his Sephiroth. Nothing I'm about to say is all too crazy and I don't think it necessarily makes or breaks the matchup, but it is worth noting. Kirby's crouch seems really good against Sephiroth's side-b. It completely avoids it. Potentially his f-smash and up-smash as well but I don't think those matter as much. Again, this isn't huge or anything, but I do think that Kirby's crouch being able to completely avoid side-b is quite good for him in the matchup, as side-b is a huge part of the reason as to why I think Sephiroth is potentially a decent character.

Based on Sephiroth's hitboxes which have been being uploaded to Twitter, it seems like Kirby should be able to low profile a few other moves with his crouch other than side-b: f-air and b-air depending on Sephiroth's spacing, Sephiroth's dash, pivot, and normal grabs, f-smash from a distance, f-tilt unless it is angled down, up-smash, and potentially down-smash as well if he's close to Sephiroth. I think this matchup might not end up being that bad for Kirby in the long run.

 

[Diddy Kong]

All am knowing is that Sephiroth will probably struggle against Diddy, because his end lag can seriously put him as a nice target for timely Banana punishes. Then again, he's got a decent projectile game, and range, so approaching him as a faster character would be somewhat more tricky than with the standard swordsman.

I predict Sephiroth will probably end up being a High Tier because he's versatile, and could likely keep up with the slower Top Tiers as Lucina, Palutena, Wario, Peach, Mr. Game & Watch, and anything that's not typically rushdown outside of Wolf maybe. Could have a slight edge above most swordfighters because of his projectile game, and reach, but most of them are better at standard sword stuff than he... I think he basically functions as a slower Marth with a projectile and longer reach; he has some novelty, but you're better off with Lucina, Ike and Roy for the standard sword stuff, and Shulk if you prefer gimmicks. Not sure about Cloud cause I don't know much about him. But I'm sort of guessing that Sephiroth is balanced around Cloud's overall performance.

 

[Hydreigonfan01]

Leo posted his Sephiroth guide.

 

[Thinkaman]

I have to wonder if we're not ignoring the very obvious asterisk that Sephiroth kinda has to be currently indisposed to pull that kind of thing off reliably.

Oh, I thought that was assumed.

In every single case, I assumed that people would be doing their response in the air, even if it's just in a drifting SH. I've probably Revenge'd three dozen Shadow Flares at this point and Pocket'd a dozen, and I can't recall once doing either on the ground. Even if I'm safe, even if I don't want drift movement, it's just plain easier to see the orbs in the air too.


I played a lot more with and , both of which feel good against him.

I don't think I've gotten this many Revenges in my life. Part of this is the predictability of a Day 1 DLC with huge shiny hitboxes that people can't resist throwing out, but it seems like the inevitable fundamental nature of the character. A dominant fighter who is comfortable throwing out huge hitboxes (especially against a slow opponent), who doesn't like to grab? Baby baby. Revenge beats Flare, Megaflare (just space the explosion), Shadow Flare, Octoslash recoveries...

And then, once you've got it, it's even better than usual!

• Suddenly sneaking in a grab is not part of Sephiroth's ordinary plan, and any attempts to do so feel more awkward and telegraphed than usual.
• Sephiroth's high commitment is eaiser-than-most to side-B.
• At his weight, one decent Revenge side-b is half his stock.
• Sephiroth's lackluster OoS options mean the added shieldstun while Revenge is up can really shine.

As for Isabelle, Slingshot is just so mean. I've been gleefully playing her in online doubles just for the devious joy of Day 1 Sephiroth teams unwisely throwing out a Gigaflare; I've gotten a fair share of double-kills at 0%. (This has nothing to do with her actually relevant advantages in the matchup, but it sure is a delight.)

The only downside in the Isabelle matchup is her lack of options against Octoslash recovery. (Fishing Rod at some angles?) Also, Lloid Trap seems poor in the pseudo-neutral, since Sephiroth has no intention of crossing you up or dashgrabbing. (Still shines at the ledge) For these reasons I assume (who should have zero trouble deleting Octoslash) is nontrivially better at the matchup.

 

[Rizen]

D DougEfresh There is a video that shows Sephiroth's frame data. https://youtu.be/u2EtDVvU0m8

This also has his, and every character's frame data if you want it in writing.

Sephiroth — Ultimate Frame Data

Mobile-friendly Frame Data for Sephiroth in Super Smash Bros. Ultimate.

ultimateframedata.com

 

[blackghost]

Oh, I thought that was assumed.

In every single case, I assumed that people would be doing their response in the air, even if it's just in a drifting SH. I've probably Revenge'd three dozen Shadow Flares at this point and Pocket'd a dozen, and I can't recall once doing either on the ground. Even if I'm safe, even if I don't want drift movement, it's just plain easier to see the orbs in the air too.


I played a lot more with and , both of which feel good against him.

I don't think I've gotten this many Revenges in my life. Part of this is the predictability of a Day 1 DLC with huge shiny hitboxes that people can't resist throwing out, but it seems like the inevitable fundamental nature of the character. A dominant fighter who is comfortable throwing out huge hitboxes (especially against a slow opponent), who doesn't like to grab? Baby baby. Revenge beats Flare, Megaflare (just space the explosion), Shadow Flare, Octoslash recoveries...

And then, once you've got it, it's even better than usual!

• Suddenly sneaking in a grab is not part of Sephiroth's ordinary plan, and any attempts to do so feel more awkward and telegraphed than usual.
• Sephiroth's high commitment is eaiser-than-most to side-B.
• At his weight, one decent Revenge side-b is half his stock.
• Sephiroth's lackluster OoS options mean the added shieldstun while Revenge is up can really shine.

This post is honestly what I'm talking about. I have an extremely hard time believe seph won't demolish incenaroar when he becomes more polished.
For instance a 50 50 of dash grab or dash attack for sep particularly with owa active is something people aren't really ready to implement yet and the zoning tools and other parts of his kit are heavily underemployed. Revenge has not proved to be an issue for characters like byleth or min min because as they became optimized incenaroar weak eases and slowness began to show its fatal flaw.

Also why doesn't his cou ter reflect projectiles? Maybe because people started complaining about all the reflectors added?
Also I wouldn't say sep is even a counter more like an armored attack or even focus

 

[Firox]

This also has his, and every character's frame data if you want it in writing.

Sephiroth — Ultimate Frame Data

Mobile-friendly Frame Data for Sephiroth in Super Smash Bros. Ultimate.

ultimateframedata.com

Interesting. Seph's Nair is only active for two frames. Makes sense given how easy it is to whiff with on landing. I'm used to spamming Greninja's Nair for landing because it completely covers him to the ground and is relatively safe on shield, especially with crossup. If the hitbox on Seph's were just a little bigger and active for another 3-4 frames, it would be downright incredible.

After playing with him for a couple of days, I'm finding to be the opposite of what was to me. When Steve first came out, I thought he looked incredibly broken, then over time came to think less and less of him. Seph, on the other hand, I thought was pretty crappy at first, but the more I play him, the more I'm beginning to see his merit. Despite his rather morbid frame data, his sheer reach alone can greatly compensate if you get your spacing down solid. His ability to shield break negates overly defensive play and his recovery, especially with OWA and that third jump, is seriously one of the best in the game. Now if I could just get some muscle memory for those hour-long startups....