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Official Competitive Character Impressions 2.0

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  • Total voters
    563

KirbySquad101

Smash Ace
Joined
Sep 7, 2015
Messages
847
Still don't have him (uggghhh), but watching some Japanese players and Sharp, I have to wonder how well suited a more aggressive playstyle would be for the character. NAir's safety is practically comparable to boxer frame data on top of giving him confirms, he's one of the few swordies to have combos off of his throws, heck, he could even try going for a Shadow Flare after his throws/NAir to let him stack on even more pressure. And in Winged Form? That NAir gives him even MORE safety on block while giving him Palutena-level combo potential.

I didn't even think it could work at first, but I am definitely starting to see it.
 

The_Bookworm

Smash Champion
Joined
Jan 10, 2018
Messages
2,792
Oh, because it was mentioned earlier, on the notion of worst counters in the game, that honor would go to either Ike or Lucario. The former's being slower than Witch Time for frankly terrible risk/reward, and the latter.....well, it's just really bad.
I would personally give it to Lucario's or Shulk's counter.

:ultlucario:'s counter got its counter activation window drastically reduced from SSB4, as well as its intangibility frames. This offsets the slightly reduced endlag, as it is now hard to land the counter and it is now easier to punish him out of it despite the lower overall duration. The move is also only strong at higher levels of aura, although he does hit like a freight train when it comes to that point.
:ultshulk:'s counter is the paper-definition of unreliable. Despite the move's overall bigger hitboxes from SSB4, the counterattack often whiffs, especially in the air, due to the slowdown effect not being strong enough while Shulk succumbs to the game's physics during counterattack. Using it offstage is often a death sentence for Shulk, even when he lands the counter. Despite the recent buff to his counter's power, the move is still slightly weaker (with no arts) than its SSB4 appearance. When the stars align, and he hits a Smash Art fueled counter, it will hurt hard. However, instance of this is very rare, and Shulk players hardly ever go for the counter due to how unreliable it is.
The counter also has some odd/rare interactions, where Shulk can sometimes get hit during the counterattack, especially by Rosalina & Luma, due to the intangibility frames not properly covering the entire counter. The normal counter, for example, has its intangibility ending when the counterattack hitbox comes out, which btw, can be blocked in Ultimate (it was unblockable in SSB4).


Honorable mentions for unimpressive counters:

:ultpalutena:'s physical counter still has some very notable issues despite the buffs it has received from SSB4. The biggest of which is the hitbox, as the counter hitbox is still very slim for a counterattack, which means that it can sometimes whiff on low profiled opponents, and especially on aerial opponents similar to Shulk's counter (although not as severe). The move also has an awkward sourspot/sweetspot properties, with the sourspot being the area just outside the staff. This weakness was more prominent in SSB4 when the sourspot was comically weak, but it is still something regardless. Still way better than the trash it was in the previous game.
:ultike:'s counter hits hard. However, it is also arguably the slowest counter in the game, even slower than Witch Time. It has a 1.2x damage multiplier like Marthcina's, but it is also a lot slower in terms of endlag, a whopping 74 frames of endlag.
:ultbayonetta:'s is interesting. Despite the buffs from patch 3.1, her counter is still unreliable at times. For starters, the startup of her counter is the slowest in the entire game, starting up at frame 8. It is technically tied with Chroy for the slowest counter, but Chroy's counter intangibility starts at frame 7. Bayo is not intangible until frame 8, so there are moments where it seems like you landed the counterattack, but Bayo gets hit anyways. When she does land the counter, there are moments where she doesn't get much out of it due to it's low duration. Multi-hit moves are also a pain to deal with this move.
:ultcorrinf:'s is not the worst thing in the world, but the risk-reward ratio is not very good. For starters, it has the shortest counterattack window in the game, only being 20 frames. The KO power of this move got heavily nerfed from SSB4, both directly and indirectly. The end result is that this counter is surprisingly weak for a counter. The main advantage is that it sends opponents upwards, which is where Corrin wants the opponent to be. However, with its much higher endlag after counterattack, being 67 frames, Corrin can't really take advantage of this anymore outside of very specific situations.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

:ultsephiroth:'s counter, while flawed, has some pretty good utility. For starters both the shield and especially the counterattack has surprisingly big hitboxes. While the fact that the counterattack triggers by itself makes it one of the more punishable counters when whiffed, the fact that it still emits a hitbox can oftentimes trip opponents up. It is also one of the strongest counters in the game, having the damage multiplier range from 1.2x-1.5x, and it can be extremely powerful knockback. I had an instance where countering Little Mac's side B would KO him at 60-ish% at near-center stage. I heard that countering certain stronger Smash attacks (not strong enough to break it) has a chance to KO at 0%.
The move is also especially helpful in edgeguarding, as upon successful counter, it stuns the opponents longer than the average counter, making it nearly impossible to dodge the counterattack upon successful counter.

A funny thing to note, is that the counterattack, similar to Peach's Toad counter, is considered a projectile. It can be both reflected and absorbed. While instance of reflecting/absorbing his counter is very rare, it is a funny interaction when it does happen.
 
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Frihetsanka

Smash Lord
Joined
Apr 26, 2016
Messages
1,916
Location
Sweden
It is interesting to see that top level players almost unanimously agree that he's at least high tier, maybe top tier, while mid level players seem more mixed (some think he's high/top, some think he's mid, some even think he's low). Are top level players overrating him for some reason? Or are (many) mid level players underrating him?

I'm still in the "he's probably high/top tier" camp, although I do have some reservations (mostly his weakness to rushdown and his very laggy moves). Wing seems super powerful, his specials all seem pretty good, his recovery seems solid, mobility goes from pretty good to amazing depending on whether he has Wing or not, disadvantage doesn't seem to be that bad for a swordfighter (he has some options), neutral... Neutral could be problematic in some matchups, I guess? Since his moves are so committal, and some might prevent him from using his specials (3/4 of his specials can be reflected, all but up-B).

Tweek, MkLeo, and Dabuz have all shown interest in playing him, so we're going to get a good amount of data and footage for this character. Unfortunately it's still mostly online...
 

Firox

Smash Master
Joined
Jan 7, 2019
Messages
3,207
I would personally give it to Lucario's or Shulk's counter.

:ultlucario:'s counter got its counter activation window drastically reduced from SSB4, as well as its intangibility frames. This offsets the slightly reduced endlag, as it is now hard to land the counter and it is now easier to punish him out of it despite the lower overall duration. The move is also only strong at higher levels of aura, although he does hit like a freight train when it comes to that point.
:ultshulk:'s counter is the paper-definition of unreliable. Despite the move's overall bigger hitboxes from SSB4, the counterattack often whiffs, especially in the air, due to the slowdown effect not being strong enough while Shulk succumbs to the game's physics during counterattack. Using it offstage is often a death sentence for Shulk, even when he lands the counter. Despite the recent buff to his counter's power, the move is still slightly weaker (with no arts) than its SSB4 appearance. When the stars align, and he hits a Smash Art fueled counter, it will hurt hard. However, instance of this is very rare, and Shulk players hardly ever go for the counter due to how unreliable it is.
The counter also has some odd/rare interactions, where Shulk can sometimes get hit during the counterattack, especially by Rosalina & Luma, due to the intangibility frames not properly covering the entire counter. The normal counter, for example, has its intangibility ending when the counterattack hitbox comes out, which btw, can be blocked in Ultimate (it was unblockable in SSB4).


Honorable mentions for unimpressive counters:

:ultpalutena:'s physical counter still has some very notable issues despite the buffs it has received from SSB4. The biggest of which is the hitbox, as the counter hitbox is still very slim for a counterattack, which means that it can sometimes whiff on low profiled opponents, and especially on aerial opponents similar to Shulk's counter (although not as severe). The move also has an awkward sourspot/sweetspot properties, with the sourspot being the area just outside the staff. This weakness was more prominent in SSB4 when the sourspot was comically weak, but it is still something regardless. Still way better than the trash it was in the previous game.
:ultike:'s counter hits hard. However, it is also arguably the slowest counter in the game, even slower than Witch Time. It has a 1.2x damage multiplier like Marthcina's, but it is also a lot slower in terms of endlag, a whopping 74 frames of endlag.
:ultbayonetta:'s is interesting. Despite the buffs from patch 3.1, her counter is still unreliable at times. For starters, the startup of her counter is the slowest in the entire game, starting up at frame 8. It is technically tied with Chroy for the slowest counter, but Chroy's counter intangibility starts at frame 7. Bayo is not intangible until frame 8, so there are moments where it seems like you landed the counterattack, but Bayo gets hit anyways. When she does land the counter, there are moments where she doesn't get much out of it due to it's low duration. Multi-hit moves are also a pain to deal with this move.
:ultcorrinf:'s is not the worst thing in the world, but the risk-reward ratio is not very good. For starters, it has the shortest counterattack window in the game, only being 20 frames. The KO power of this move got heavily nerfed from SSB4, both directly and indirectly. The end result is that this counter is surprisingly weak for a counter. The main advantage is that it sends opponents upwards, which is where Corrin wants the opponent to be. However, with its much higher endlag after counterattack, being 67 frames, Corrin can't really take advantage of this anymore outside of very specific situations.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

:ultsephiroth:'s counter, while flawed, has some pretty good utility. For starters both the shield and especially the counterattack has surprisingly big hitboxes. While the fact that the counterattack triggers by itself makes it one of the more punishable counters when whiffed, the fact that it still emits a hitbox can oftentimes trip opponents up. It is also one of the strongest counters in the game, having the damage multiplier range from 1.2x-1.5x, and it can be extremely powerful knockback. I had an instance where countering Little Mac's side B would KO him at 60-ish% at near-center stage. I heard that countering certain stronger Smash attacks (not strong enough to break it) has a chance to KO at 0%.
The move is also especially helpful in edgeguarding, as upon successful counter, it stuns the opponents longer than the average counter, making it nearly impossible to dodge the counterattack upon successful counter.

A funny thing to note, is that the counterattack, similar to Peach's Toad counter, is considered a projectile. It can be both reflected and absorbed. While instance of reflecting/absorbing his counter is very rare, it is a funny interaction when it does happen.
I'd like to add :ultgreninja:'s Substitute to the list. People often forget that it's a directionally influenced counter, but if you want to talk about unreliable, I can personally testify to how often the stupid thing misses, especially on an airborne opponent. I've found that diagonal directions will almost always miss, regardless of the time slowing effect, and the horizontal directions will almost always miss a falling or jumping opponent. For that reason, I will typically only use horizontal direction on grounded targets and Up/Down for aerial targets. Sad thing is that even if it connects, the damage is fixed, not a proportional magnifier, so it rarely has the power to do significant damage or kill until after 120+% and requires proper directional aim.
 

Arthur97

Smash Master
Joined
Jun 7, 2016
Messages
3,139
I think top tier might be a stretch, but I'm generally take a more conservative approach. That said, top players are obviously really good so it may be easier for them to overestimate in some situations.
 

Lacrimosa

Smash Lord
Joined
Mar 31, 2019
Messages
1,237
Location
Germany
Some short tweets from Mera about how :ultpeach: and :ultzelda: do against :ultsephiroth::


I can't give an opinion here since I didn't play the game in quite some time now.
 

Rizen

Smash Legend
Joined
May 7, 2009
Messages
14,477
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Colorado
Oh, because it was mentioned earlier, on the notion of worst counters in the game, that honor would go to either Ike or Lucario. The former's being slower than Witch Time for frankly terrible risk/reward, and the latter.....well, it's just really bad.
I'd easily take either of those over Sephiroth's counter. Here's why:
This is Sephiroth's counter:

(86 total frames btw) The frame data specifically states: "counter only activates when something hits the wall, not S's body." I value this detection much less than Ike's:

(73 total frames, less punishable on wiff) Which hits all around him. S's counter has much worse utility. Lets say Fox is trying to recover by hugging the stage wall with fire fox. S runs offstage and counters, he will get hit because Fox's attack comes from underneath. Ike will successfully counter and kill Fox. Lets say Link is Dairing you from above, same scenario.

S's counter breaks, Ike's doesn't. IDK what the damage threshold is for this but lets say DK's giant punch will break it. Ike counters, he kills DK. S counters and neutral is reset.

Ike's counter cannot be reflected/absorbed, S's can. ROB rotor arms or Minmin Usmashes. Ike counters and kills them. S counters and ends up dying at very low %s. Fox shines, Ness magnets...

S's counter may have good power but the utility is much worse than other counters. At least K.Rool's belly counter reflects.
 
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Vycoul

Smash Apprentice
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Apr 27, 2015
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At the moment, I'm having a very hard time seeing Sephiroth as a high tier.
Being very light, tall, laggy, with sluggish framedata, and unremarkable mobility until you reach ~80%... That's a really steep hill to climb. Yeah Sephiroth has some crazy stuff, but is it truly enough to make up for those stats? I'm really starting to think it isn't.

He is utterly destroyed by rushdown. I think this is crystal clear by now and will not change matter how long we "wait and see." This is exacerbated by some of the best characters capable of playing this way are also on the small side, another thing Sephiroth hates.

In my experience, he also does not deal well with projectile heavy characters. It isn't hopeless, but he has no way to force approaches and approaching does not seem to be something Sephiroth excels at. I know someone who mains Villager and Duck Hunt and those matchups have been rather unfun for me... Moreso than usual since playing against Villager and DH can never really be considered fun of course.

Already wishing for buffs seems verboten here, but I really don't care: I'd feel a lot better about Sephiroth if his nair was a few frames faster, or a bit more active.

I get the feeling Sephiroth will end up being a mid-tier. Also known as: "The place everyone puts anyone who isn't top 15/bottom 10 because no one in this game is irredeemable garbage, and after Melee and Brawl that does not compute with this community." :)
 
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Firox

Smash Master
Joined
Jan 7, 2019
Messages
3,207
Not buff :ultdoc:, :ultganondorf:, &:ultlittlemac:.
Unfortunately, there's a pretty good chance you're right. Based on the last couple of patches, I'm starting to get the feeling that Sakurai and his team think they're approaching optimal equilibrium. Buffs seem to be slowing down and nerfs are few and far between. Regardless of what people may think, we may be nearing the solidification of character potential in Ultimate.
 

meleebrawler

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Somehow in the couple of matches I got against characters that would be considered rushdown with Sephiroth, it didn't feel as difficult as you'd expect. Yes, the margin for error is very small, but even considering the slow frame data, Sephiroth's range still forces them to dance at a range further than what they're used to, hindering their ability to punish. And for those who like to use projectiles to cover approaches, Scintilla's large hitboxes will almost assuredly catch you if you follow too closely.
 

StrangeKitten

Smash Lord
Joined
Mar 25, 2020
Messages
1,416
Location
Pokemon Stadium 2
Sephi may not do too badly against rushdown in the future. He's got slow frame data and people aren't used to him yet. Rushdowns might still beat him by a bit, but I can see the matchups improving as people get used to Seph's pace of play.
 

Kokiden

Smash Ace
Joined
Apr 24, 2019
Messages
673
Anyone got links to this Sharp player and some Japanese players using Sephy?

Twitch or Youtube?
 

FruitLoop

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Dec 31, 2018
Messages
124
At the moment, I'm having a very hard time seeing Sephiroth as a high tier.
Being very light, tall, laggy, with sluggish framedata, and unremarkable mobility until you reach ~80%... That's a really steep hill to climb. Yeah Sephiroth has some crazy stuff, but is it truly enough to make up for those stats? I'm really starting to think it isn't.

He is utterly destroyed by rushdown. I think this is crystal clear by now and will not change matter how long we "wait and see." This is exacerbated by some of the best characters capable of playing this way are also on the small side, another thing Sephiroth hates.

In my experience, he also does not deal well with projectile heavy characters. It isn't hopeless, but he has no way to force approaches and approaching does not seem to be something Sephiroth excels at. I know someone who mains Villager and Duck Hunt and those matchups have been rather unfun for me... Moreso than usual since playing against Villager and DH can never really be considered fun of course.

Already wishing for buffs seems verboten here, but I really don't care: I'd feel a lot better about Sephiroth if his nair was a few frames faster, or a bit more active.

I get the feeling Sephiroth will end up being a mid-tier. Also known as: "The place everyone puts anyone who isn't top 15/bottom 10 because no one in this game is irredeemable garbage, and after Melee and Brawl that does not compute with this community." :)
Here's some of my counterpoints on why I believe Sephiroth is probably a high tier instead (at least from my experience and from talking with a bunch of sephiroth players and watching Sharp quite a bit).

- I will agree with the flaws you listed OUTSIDE of mobility. Sephiroth is still faster than Mario on the ground and despite his below average air speed (though it really isn't THAT bad) he still gets more than solid aerial drift to space around his sword and given his fantastic threat range he's more than solid in that regard. His shorthop is fantastic (although sometimes fastfalling too early on things like sh bair can make it so you dont hit anyone but over time i think people will get better in that regard) and mix that with two burst options (dash attack and downtilt) with the former killing and and the latter crossing up opponents and giving him a low-profile means that he gets a lot more movement options than you think. You can still go for b-reverse cancel movement or jump cancel b-reverse to maneuver around the stage and I think his mobility overall is very good given his range. His mobility goes from very good to genuinely busted with OWA as he gains an extra jump and basically gets godlike ground speed and air speed alongside that ridiculous range cranking his ability to create a massive bubble of threat ranges to 11.

- Some rushdown-esque matchups can be hard such as Inkling, Greninja, Pikachu, and joker (while the latter 2 gets more than solid camping potential with safe projectiles if they don't feel like approaching sephiroth whilst being hard to hit) but the general consensus is that these matchups are still do-able and won't be complete bracket killers unlike other mid tier and below characters.

The spacies seem like pretty doable matchups for Sephirorth due to the glassy nature on all the spacies and sephiroth and his ability to get a strong punish when guessing right on an unsafe jump in. Roy/Chrom also seem like more than fine matchups for Sephiroth for similar reasons.

Sheik/Diddy/ZSS do seem like possibly hard matchups (especially Diddy) and imo Bowser might be genuinely a tough matchup for Sephiroth as time goes on. PK Kids also seem to be an issue and sephiroth has a shockingly not very good matchup against Isabelle but very doable matchup with Villager. But outside of that no matchup seems particularly bad for sephiroth.

Most of the zoner heavy matchups seeming "pretty bad" for sephiroth imo has to do with run up shield and walking up shield being a lot weaker online and reliably clanking projectiles with a giant sword seems harder online too. He probably has a little bit of issues getting camped like a lot of swordfighters do but it probably isn't a special tier of bad and it might actually be better than average due to how great fair/ftilt are at disabling projectiles alongside Shadow-flare beating out certain mu-based projectiles.

Sephiroth also does pretty well against Palutena/Marcina/Shotos (Terry isn't that good of a mu so far until Seph's offstage/advantage gets fully optimized)/G&W/Ike/Possibly Mario/etc. so it's not like he's having a bad time vs every relevant character either.

- Nair being frame 9 is fine given how BIG it is so even out of shield its at least serviceable. Since Sephiroth's other main issue outside of being light and having unreliable kill power is just his frame data he does get quite a few setbacks in terms of what he does out of shield and how he escapes pressure. However having a move thats as all-around big as Neutral-Air that has very little lag meaning that you can just jump nair and retreat with your jumps is HUGE. Disadvantage obviously isn't great but getting at least serviceable air drift and a few long ranged sword stabs to force the opponent to respect being in certain positions vs Sephiroth whilst attempting to frame trap him is definitely something worth noting.

Sephiroth is obviously a polarizing character and usually those characters can be short of top tier. But I feel like Sephiroth at least has enough options for every scenario and his win condition is just strong enough for him to be high tier. Neutral is definitely very RPS based compared to other characters and he does require a really consistent ability to avoiding the opponent's win condition to prevent dying at 40 and a mind of steel to maintain momentum as this character which certainly makes him tough to properly optimize, but I feel like this character can very much become meta-relevant and perform well at majors with real dedication.

I will also state that imo Sephiroth seems to be a lot worse online and given the environment of online we can't really see how he'd perform in an environment where spacing his precise sword swings is much more reliable and easier to manage. Nevertheless, imo Sephiroth seems high tier (though for now on the lower end until he gets fully optimized in how shadow flare gets used and people find more interactions where Sephiroth's sword can clank or beat out other moves).
 

kirby3021

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Nov 12, 2014
Messages
248
If you find metaview on Twitch, their Get Clipped #6 - Winners Top 64 shows several matches with Sharp. I think he placed 2nd overall.
 

MrGameguycolor

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Unfortunately, there's a pretty good chance you're right. Based on the last couple of patches, I'm starting to get the feeling that Sakurai and his team think they're approaching optimal equilibrium. Buffs seem to be slowing down and nerfs are few and far between. Regardless of what people may think, we may be nearing the solidification of character potential in Ultimate.
I really hope I'm wrong.

Cause as I said before, there are so many little things they could touch up.
Especially without "ruining it" for the casual players...
 

Zachmac

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Welp here's some quick thoughts on some PT/Sephiroth match up interactions from an amateur tryhard.

:ultsquirtle: - Stage control is really important when fighting Sephiroth, so water gun is your friend. As Sephy is a defensive character there's plenty of opportunities to charge it up or fire it. Squirtle is slippery but if he does get hit by side b water gun can be used to push him away before you're forced to throw out a punishable defensive option. Withdraw's invincibility might also work as a hail mary against Shadow Flare but I'll need to test how they interact.

:ultivysaur: - Ivysaur is kind of the weakest link here but Razor Leaf is still nifty to have in this match up. Ivy has a hard time fighting for stage control outside of that though thanks to poor mobility and being outclassed in the midrange.

:ultcharizard: - This might just be my inner Charizard loyalist speaking but I think the Zard does well here. Flamethrower and Bair really help Charizard compete at Sephy's range, and Charizard has strong punishes and good ground speed for when he needs to capitalize on openings. Charizard loves Sephiroth's poor height/weight ratio as he has a number of tools to KO him early, and while Sephiroth has a lot of disadvantage mix ups one good call out can kill him really early.

Flare Blitz can be used a gimmick to tank Shadow Flare and KO Sephiroth while his guard is down, but that's an extremely really risky maneuver I don't recommend using much. It can still come in really clutch though.
 

Diddy Kong

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I said it once, and I'll say it again; Sephiroth is Mewtwo with a sword. People aren't gonna be able to properly judge the character well the way this meta game is shaping up at the moment. Covid is making things worse.

Just think about Mewtwo, and how polarising it's results are up until now. Often considered a low tier, but has definite top tier qualities. Mewtwo has a different case due to actually being a Top Tier in Smash 4, but if people can see the good in Diddy and Sheik now, Mewtwo will likely follow suit.

Sephiroth might actually be quite a bit better to be honest. I think he will eventually end up just being a solid High Tier, counter pick character.
 

Kokiden

Smash Ace
Joined
Apr 24, 2019
Messages
673
Is Northern Crater a legal stage? I hope so. Would be nice to get a new stage for a change, and hearing OWA during a grand finals would be pretty epic.

Playing Seph with joy cons is not a fun experience lol. I should switch to a GC controller but I don't have an adapter (should probably get one. They're all the same right? Quality wise I mean).

Thanks to the people who linked vids. I've been checking them out and getting tips from them.
 

DavemanCozy

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High tier Sephiroth seems likely to me.

His side-special I think is one of his best tools. It's almost like putting a grenade on your opponent and forcing them to hold it until it blows up, the amount of pressure this adds lets Sephiroth pressure shield, continue a combo or finish off from the top. Or just helps him break out of whatever abuse he's taking if he planted the orbs before he started getting rushed down. Combined with his d-smash having shield breaking capabilities and his reach, he seems like a fairly good fighter to me.

Purposely so, however, he is (very clearly) designed to have clear drawbacks; being light and tall is my biggest gripe with him, tbh his frame data isn't even that big of a deal to me. Ultimately that does make KOing him much easier than you'd think, he is indeed fairly polarizing and it's why I can't see him as top tier personally.

OFC that's just my spectator opinion ultimately. I do hope I'm wrong and he ends up being better than what I'm seeing him, since either way he's a fun character to play and watch

--

On another topic, can Little Mac please get a rework?

I can't think of any other character in Smash history that is just so... badly designed. On purpose.
 
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Nidtendofreak

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Is Northern Crater a legal stage? I hope so. Would be nice to get a new stage for a change, and hearing OWA during a grand finals would be pretty epic.
Most likely not:

1) Can personally confirm the start of the loop causes motion sickness Clock Tower Style

2) Music composer is one of the ones who will copywrite any steam with the music playing, same sort of problem as Earthbound stages

3) Background in general is extremely distracting
 
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Firox

Smash Master
Joined
Jan 7, 2019
Messages
3,207
Most likely not:

1) Can personally confirm the start of the loop causes motion sickness Clock Tower Style

2) Music composer is one of the ones who will copywrite any steam with the music playing, same sort of problem as Earthbound stages

3) Background in general is extremely distracting
Yeah, the motion sickness thing is the reason why I despise playing on Umbra Clock Tower. That said, Northern Cave doesn't seem to bother me as much. I'm usually so focused on my opponent that the background is sort of invisible to me on that stage.
 

DougEfresh

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Joined
Mar 23, 2020
Messages
203
While :ultsephiroth: discussion is still going on, I figure I'll share some cursory thoughts of how the match up against him seems to play out with my mains:

For :ultlucario:, this seems to be much better in practice than it would first appear on paper. In general lucario does not like disjoints, especially those as large as Sephiroth's that in theory can constantly pressure him and wall him out in neutral. HOWEVER, because of Seph's particularly slow frames, Lucario's own mediocre to bad frame data becomes much less problematic; in fact, in doing a move-to-move comparison, Luc generally has Seph beat by at least a few frames on most individual moves. His small range does mean that he'll ultimately have to get in close to Sephiroth in order to do significant damage and press advantage in a meaningful way, but his lack of fast buttons for OOS or to get out of combos, Lucario can and should opt to box with him more than the usual swordie MU.

Going back to neutral for a moment, hanging back just outside of :ultsephiroth:'s fair/bair range (and general burst range) to harass him with aura spheres seemed to a pretty good tactic as it either stuffs his attempted jumps for aerial pokes or get him while he's stuck in landing lag, which he has a lot of on his aerials. Scintilla not reflecting back projectiles takes away a lot of caution and worry that would otherwise have to be used with AS, and while it is not exactly a spammable projectile due to its rather high start up and cooldown before and after throwing it, capitalizing on aura sphere usage at an unreactable distance to exploit his tall frame and undesirable start up and landing lag does seem like a strategy worth employing and optimizing in the match up. Lucario also has the initial dash speed to rush in for some solid punishes on whiffed attacks or if you read Seph's rhythm of attacks and parry them (even if not big hits to win neutral or get kills, it will often lead to stage control).

Speaking of stage control, Zachmac said it best when having it against sephiroth is huge and it really was the most consistent and effective way I was taking stocks off of Seph. His disadvantage might be somewhat better than :ultmewtwo: because of fair stalls below ledge and access to a third jump with OWA, but they still share notable flaws in disadvantage state because of being so damn tall and light and this is where Seph's slow start up really seems to hurt him a lot. I got a ton of pressure off of aura sphere ledge traps and maintaining position at center stage to wall him out with nair/fair in the air or push him away and back towards the corner with ftilt or even dash attack in some instances. A unique mid-ranged zoning option to pressure Seph was force palm flame which is somewhat high commitment for him but less so in this MU because of Seph's high start up frames to punish it. I also got many jump calls with bair as well, which is one of :ultlucario:'s stupidest moves regardless of aura. When I had at higher percents, I often completely robbed his stocks at ridiculously early percents with this move either off an ASC confirm or an aforementioned jump read call out and OWA doesn't become a factor (and in several other instances, :ultsephiroth: can and often did the same to me as lucario in disadvantage. He definitely juggles lucario very well if he's not on point with mix ups on air dodges and double jumps, though Seph is at risk of a reversal situation if Luc can land quickly and has the time to punish a failed juggle when Seph is stuck in landing lag or endlag depending on what method of anti-air/vertical pressure he chose to do).

Another thing I'll say about disadvantage against sephiroth is that it really teaches you to be patient (but not exceedingly so!) at the ledge and off-stage: wait for that giga flare set up and time your get up option appropriately, and if your character has a good, long distance recovery like Lucario has with higher aura extreme speed, you're often okay. But if you hold in a lot to drift toward the ledge to recover like many low and mid level players do, sephiroth DESTROYS YOU for this habit because of the long reach of fair and bair allowing him to edgeguard without a lot of commitment (same thing with hasty double jump habits out of disadvantage). Seph's recovery is good, but it seems like it can't go too deep off-stage for edgeguards without a high risk of reversal which he doesn't want because of susceptibility to corner pressure and ledge traps similar to Mewtwo.

All in all, I would estimate this as a polarizing and volatile even match up and it really comes down to who can whiff punish and read the other better in disadvantage, so in a way, it's a fantastic test of your fundamentals and relative skill level with the game.

I have much less data on the :ultbanjokazooie:/:ultsephiroth: MU at the moment, but my God is wonderwing one hell of a whiff punish and call out move against Seph. As time goes on, I'm sure it'll be harder to use it frequently to great effect, but I think just because of the glass cannon nature of sephiroth, it'll still remain a significant threat because it sure does kill early with it being easier to land because of his tall light boy status. Neutral seems to be more annoying and projectile heavy than I'm used to playing with Banjo, but I think he'll excel at his usual strengths of corner pressure and ledge trapping, as well as catching landings (all things I anticipate :ultsephiroth: being strong at as well given enough time to develop his gameplan). Egg gimps seem like a threat off-stage in much the same way that it is with other characters that have limited or exploitable recoveries.

Right off the cuff without extensive labbing of the MU with banjo even in this 4-5 day period, I'm willing to estimate it at even or maybe +0.5/+1 for banjo depending on how much sephiroth will struggle with zoners in general and more importantly how effectively Banjo's grenade eggs and blue eggs can interact in the match up.

About :ultsephiroth: himself, I'm still holding a positive outlook on the character and think he could reasonably settle as a lower to mid high tier character, but I'm more conflicted than some are about how he'll differ between an online and offline environment. While his hitboxes are not particularly big in terms of overall coverage of space and thus require him to space effectively and consistently to make the most of fair, bair, ftilt, etc (which is hindered online for sure), transferring him to an offline environment he'll still have the same slow start up and high landing lag or cooldown on moves, and with normal human reaction time being restored offline, I can't help but think it might actually be easier to exploit and punish him there than online, especially with parrying looking to be very effective against him due to what seems like limited timing mix ups on his key moves in fair, bair, and ftilt (even nair as well). Only time will tell, but so far, I'm enjoying the show that the likes of MkLeo, Sharp, and other top players are doing with Sephiroth in these early stages of his meta.
 

blackghost

Smash Champion
Joined
Jul 9, 2015
Messages
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It is interesting to see that top level players almost unanimously agree that he's at least high tier, maybe top tier, while mid level players seem more mixed (some think he's high/top, some think he's mid, some even think he's low). Are top level players overrating him for some reason? Or are (many) mid level players underrating him?

I'm still in the "he's probably high/top tier" camp, although I do have some reservations (mostly his weakness to rushdown and his very laggy moves). Wing seems super powerful, his specials all seem pretty good, his recovery seems solid, mobility goes from pretty good to amazing depending on whether he has Wing or not, disadvantage doesn't seem to be that bad for a swordfighter (he has some options), neutral... Neutral could be problematic in some matchups, I guess? Since his moves are so committal, and some might prevent him from using his specials (3/4 of his specials can be reflected, all but up-B).

Tweek, MkLeo, and Dabuz have all shown interest in playing him, so we're going to get a good amount of data and footage for this character. Unfortunately it's still mostly online...
sephiroth is the antithesis of hero in almost every way
1.top players love him mid and lower dont see the potential
2. most people recognized him on music alone
3. sephiroth has no unseen smash mechanics while hero is filled with them
4. sephiroth doesn't "steal" wins. he just wants to win because he's better. (Sakurai making characters playstyles canon to personalities is incredible.)
5. sephiroth can use kaboom whenever he wants.
 

ParanoidDrone

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I have much less data on the :ultbanjokazooie:/:ultsephiroth: MU at the moment, but my God is wonderwing one hell of a whiff punish and call out move against Seph. As time goes on, I'm sure it'll be harder to use it frequently to great effect, but I think just because of the glass cannon nature of sephiroth, it'll still remain a significant threat because it sure does kill early with it being easier to land because of his tall light boy status. Neutral seems to be more annoying and projectile heavy than I'm used to playing with Banjo, but I think he'll excel at his usual strengths of corner pressure and ledge trapping, as well as catching landings (all things I anticipate :ultsephiroth: being strong at as well given enough time to develop his gameplan). Egg gimps seem like a threat off-stage in much the same way that it is with other characters that have limited or exploitable recoveries.

Right off the cuff without extensive labbing of the MU with banjo even in this 4-5 day period, I'm willing to estimate it at even or maybe +0.5/+1 for banjo depending on how much sephiroth will struggle with zoners in general and more importantly how effectively Banjo's grenade eggs and blue eggs can interact in the match up.
I've actually had similar thoughts about the Banjo/Sephiroth matchup. Being able to bully through Sephiroth's hitboxes without caring about Flare/Shadow Flare traps, even if it can only be used a few times per stock, seems pretty valuable.
 

Hydreigonfan01

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Aug 24, 2018
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Bee says that Sephiroth is being heavily underrated right now at the moment and is very good after just playing against Tweek.
 

PlasmaDam

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Aug 31, 2018
Messages
471
Little mac sort of runs into a super man problem where if you change he isnt little mac anymore little mac with aireals the more faithful little mac is too his game the more he sucks
 

PK Gaming

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Aug 25, 2012
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Looks like Min Min is terrorizing offline play in Japan right now and causing quite a stir on Twitter. Her videos are getting disliked bombed on Twitter


PK Gaming said:
Min Min is completely ridiculous btw. I still hold firm in my belief that she'll be a problem at all levels once the pandemic lets up.
I made this claim in July that she and I still stick by it. I know that's unfair claim to make, especially to people who main her and are passionate about the character. I don't want to be recklessly dismissive, but her current kit is just too much of a problem for a lot of the cast. We'll see though.
 

NotLiquid

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I feel like this "look at the VOD like/dislike ratio" point is probably some of the most blatantly selective cherrypicking this community has ever tried to push since I can easily find multiple prominent Japanese VODs as recent as last month that haven't gotten anywhere near the current ratios. People also have a bad tendency of assuming that Japan are some passively benevolent community that don't have their own biases about certain characters, as if Min Min being "disliked" by people in the community means that the ostensible patron saints have committed to a frightening act of antipathy that's gonna spell an ill omen for the community. Let's assume a little less about what characters Japan "doesn't like" because I can assure you Min Min isn't the only one.

Anyway, this push for, whatever the narrative is, isn't gonna wash since I don't think people realize what they're pushing back against yet. Is Min Min great? Hell yeah she is. Probably the second best DLC in the cast as of right now, I'm glad people are finally realizing that. But she's got way too many overt flaws at a design level that people generally choose not to account for because she plays the unique role of being a long-range whiff punisher. It kinda saddens me when people accuse her of being a braindead and unhealthy character when I'd honestly go so far as to say she's probably one of the characters that's the best barometer of pure player skill. So much of her toolkit is just elegantly built around understanding your options and properly conditioning the players - specifically having the long-range-yet-precise coverage with a dash of mobility, fast buttons with considerable cooldown, and an extremely vulnerable yet not entirely defenseless disadvantage state, makes her an extremely nuanced mix-up machine that demands just as much from the player as it does the opponent. She has options for most things in the cast, but she has to condition you to fall into committing to the option she wants, and if that doesn't happen, she can get opened up easily. That kind of playstyle is inherently exciting to me, especially in a game where its detractors spin Ultimate's meta as a matter of "the game is about spamming short hop aerials with perfect shield safety until someone gets a hit".

But this is Smash, and as is often the case, this community is scared of things it doesn't understand, or just straight up chooses not to understand. Considering there's still large swathes of this community who claim Inkling is an "unhype" character - whatever that means - I can't say I really care for the base's distinction in judging what they do like, especially when this game's top 20 is inherently dishonest in design (and frankly more exciting for it).
 
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Frihetsanka

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Sweden
I feel like this "look at the VOD like/dislike ratio" point is probably some of the most blatantly selective cherrypicking this community has ever tried to push since I can easily find multiple prominent Japanese VODs as recent as last month that haven't gotten anywhere near the current ratios.
Apparently the reason the videos are being disliked is because one of the players is supposedly really toxic.

The lesson here is: Don't believe everything you see on social media.
 

Wunderwaft

Smash Master
Joined
Mar 21, 2019
Messages
3,218
Apparently the reason the videos are being disliked is because one of the players is supposedly really toxic.

The lesson here is: Don't believe everything you see on social media.
There's like seven different players in the pictured vods, there isn't a common player in all of them. The only common thing they have is, well, Min Min.
 
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