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Official Competitive Character Impressions 2.0

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  • Total voters
    563

StrangeKitten

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Game 2, Ravenking is up a stock and OWA still activates. Maybe there's just a threshold that it activates anyway? Maybe it always activates if Seph is over 100%? I'm starting to think Sakurai wasn't completely accurate in his description of how it works. There's a nuance to it.
 

The_Bookworm

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Game 2, Ravenking is up a stock and OWA still activates. Maybe there's just a threshold that it activates anyway? Maybe it always activates if Seph is over 100%? I'm starting to think Sakurai wasn't completely accurate in his description of how it works. There's a nuance to it.
Winged mode activates depending on the percent taken from the fight. Stock difference only affects what percentage activates Winged Mode.

That being said, I am still encountering the bug where Winged mode does not go away after taking a stock. Maybe they changed it to be timer based?
 

StrangeKitten

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Winged mode activates depending on the percent taken from the fight. Stock difference only affects what percentage activates Winged Mode.

That being said, I am still encountering the bug where Winged mode does not go away after taking a stock. Maybe they changed it to be timer based?
The fact that it can activate when Seph is up by a lot means, like other characters with comeback mechanics, Seph has steamroll potential. Assuming this is working as intended/they don't change it, this will probably strengthen Sephiroth's viability by a lot.

I'm thinking he might indeed end up as a really strong character!
 

PK Gaming

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I feel like this "look at the VOD like/dislike ratio" point is probably some of the most blatantly selective cherrypicking this community has ever tried to push since I can easily find multiple prominent Japanese VODs as recent as last month that haven't gotten anywhere near the current ratios. People also have a bad tendency of assuming that Japan are some passively benevolent community that don't have their own biases about certain characters, as if Min Min being "disliked" by people in the community means that the ostensible patron saints have committed to a frightening act of antipathy that's gonna spell an ill omen for the community. Let's assume a little less about what characters Japan "doesn't like" because I can assure you Min Min isn't the only one.
It's literally just that an example, not some grand piece of evidence to prove my thesis. And you're totally misrepresenting my intent; I'm not bringing up Japan because it's some sacrosanct community, i'm bringing it up because they've been allowed to have offline tournaments. Right now, they're the only major smash community that has direct tournament experience with the character. So sorry, but this isn't just a matter of Japan "not liking" the character. We're seeing clear offline backlash here, and it's absolutely worth noting. Immediately shutting it down as nothing is a pretty textbook case of willful ignorance. Community backlash are useful, even if they don't end up meaningfully panning out (ie: Hero = Broken)

Anyway, this push for, whatever the narrative is, isn't gonna wash since I don't think people realize what they're pushing back against yet. Is Min Min great? Hell yeah she is. Probably the second best DLC in the cast as of right now, I'm glad people are finally realizing that. But she's got way too many overt flaws at a design level that people generally choose not to account for because she plays the unique role of being a long-range whiff punisher. It kinda saddens me when people accuse her of being a braindead and unhealthy character when I'd honestly go so far as to say she's probably one of the characters that's the best barometer of pure player skill. So much of her toolkit is just elegantly built around understanding your options and properly conditioning the players - specifically having the long-range-yet-precise coverage with a dash of mobility, fast buttons with considerable cooldown, and an extremely vulnerable yet not entirely defenseless disadvantage state, makes her an extremely nuanced mix-up machine that demands just as much from the player as it does the opponent. She has options for most things in the cast, but she has to condition you to fall into committing to the option she wants, and if that doesn't happen, she can get opened up easily. That kind of playstyle is inherently exciting to me, especially in a game where its detractors spin Ultimate's meta as a matter of "the game is about spamming short hop aerials with perfect shield safety until someone gets a hit".
Like I said, "we'll see." I think she's an interesting and fun character too, and probably does crumple to most of the busted top tier rushdown/neutral characters. But the point of contention with the character is her alarming ability to cheese edgeguarding, straight up bypassing one of the core game states of the game. I don't think she's broken, nor do I think she's the worst offender of "not playing the game" (Sonic and G&W take that pretty easily), but it's still worth noting problematic aspects of her design.

But this is Smash, and as is often the case, this community is scared of things it doesn't understand, or just straight up chooses not to understand. Considering there's still large swathes of this community who claim Inkling is an "unhype" character - whatever that means - I can't say I really care for the base's distinction in judging what they do like, especially when this game's top 20 is inherently dishonest in design (and frankly more exciting for it).
You know, I could easily see our situations being reversed. Which is why I can say with confidence that you're letting your passion for the character blind you, and the heated response speaks to that. You can't just write off community reaction to "the community doesn't understand." Sometimes it doesn't, sometimes it does. No single person can objectively determine what's correct.
 

Hydreigonfan01

Smash Lord
Joined
Aug 24, 2018
Messages
1,810
With the discussion on :ultminmin, Japan believes that she's overall unhealthy for the metagame. They believe that because she's a crazy good gatekeeping character that invalidates half the cast, which heavily damages diversity and character choice in the meta if the character is good. A lot of previous high tiers/mid tiers are dropping tiers because some matchups with Min-Min are unplayable. As it turns out, the character is very good with some Japanese players such as Lunamado considering her top 10. Couple that with her very strong punish game, cheese factor of back throw into Dragon F-Smash and being overall very unfun to fight and Japan is fuming.

This whole situation reminds me of :4bayonetta: only instead of the DLC character being absurdly broken, she's just very good due to possessing one of the worst disadvantage states in the game.
 

NotLiquid

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Jul 14, 2014
Messages
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It's literally just that an example, not some grand piece of evidence to prove my thesis. And you're totally misrepresenting my intent; I'm not bringing up Japan because it's some sacrosanct community, i'm bringing it up because they've been allowed to have offline tournaments. Right now, they're the only major smash community that has direct tournament experience with the character. So sorry, but this isn't just a matter of Japan "not liking" the character. We're seeing clear offline backlash here, and it's absolutely worth noting. Immediately shutting it down as nothing is a pretty textbook case of willful ignorance. Community backlash are useful, even if they don't end up meaningfully panning out (ie: Hero = Broken)
You shouldn't assume that part of my post is specifically aimed at you, and I'm not trying to rope you in as being part of the issue at all by talking about Min Min's strengths in a competitive thread. You're good and I know you've been one of the reasonable posters in these threads, so apologies if it came across that way. It's just a fact that the Min Min topic was perpetuated based on a lot of bad faith assumptions and have been for a while, partially because of some poorly researched M2K/Salem videos, and that sentiment is spreading pretty uniformly in a bad way because the only receipts people can pull are some dislikes on YouTube VODs. It's specifically that which I'm talking about when I say Smash players have a habit of perpetuating a whole lot of naff they don't have the full picture of. Like Meru said, it is a fact that a lot of Japan are becoming pretty annoyed in regards to her at a top level, but the size of how badly people view her is relatively overestimated.
 
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The_Bookworm

Smash Champion
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Jan 10, 2018
Messages
2,792
In about two hours, we are about to get update 10.1.



This patch will come with the new AC Cloud final smash, the Final Fantasy spirits, and new balance changes.
As per usual, when they release the English patch notes, feel free to place it in this thread so it is readily accessible.
 

Frihetsanka

Smash Lord
Joined
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Messages
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Game 2, Ravenking is up a stock and OWA still activates. Maybe there's just a threshold that it activates anyway? Maybe it always activates if Seph is over 100%? I'm starting to think Sakurai wasn't completely accurate in his description of how it works. There's a nuance to it.
I think it was pretty clear that stock lead just delayed it, and stock deficit made it spawn later. "The accumulated damage isn't the only factor that determines if you're in danger. The overall state of a battle is also a factor. For example, if you have more stock [sic] than your opponents. Even when your damage exceeds 100%, the wing still won't appear... Oh, it finally appeared. If you're at a stock disadvantage, you can achieve Winged Form at only 30% damage."

That being said, I am still encountering the bug where Winged mode does not go away after taking a stock.
It's not a bug, Sakurai said in the direct that it can go away after taking a stock, not that it always will. I always thought that part was pretty clear but seems many people missed it. "You can also lose it by KO'ing an opponent." Key word here being "can", not "will". So yeah, you might lose it, but you might not, I think it probably depends on whether you have a lead or not, I don't know exactly how it works though. I sure hope it's not RNG...
 

Rizen

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I feel like this "look at the VOD like/dislike ratio" point is probably some of the most blatantly selective cherrypicking this community has ever tried to push since I can easily find multiple prominent Japanese VODs as recent as last month that haven't gotten anywhere near the current ratios.
^This. It's a bunch of social media scrubs who probably don't even play in tournaments. Sonic is the West's least liked character because people don't like campy playstyles. I've heard on a video a commentator saying to the chat "You're criticizing Sonix for playing the MU RIGHT. He has the stock lead; he doesn't need to approach." He was absolutely right. Social media will criticize smart play if it's campy, which is often the case. I've heard people call YL toxic and say he needed nerfs pre-patch. That's why I always say 'if you think he needs nerfs try playing him in a tournament, see how far you get'.
 

NotLiquid

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Patch 10.1.0 is out.


Pretty modest patch, very few characters touched and nothing of real consequence ended up being changed outside of making some attacks easier to link (though Pichu and Zelda's FSmash seems like it got minor range buffs).
 
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Guynamednelson

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though Pichu and Zelda's FSmash seems like it got minor range buffs
Odd choice to increase Pichu's range on an attack, considering it's supposed to have inferior range to Pikachu in the first place.
 

NotLiquid

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Odd choice to increase Pichu's range on an attack, considering it's supposed to have inferior range to Pikachu in the first place.
By "minor range buffs" I mean they basically extended the final hit so opponents are less likely to fall out of it. It won't make too big of a practical impact in practice. This was very much another "we're making some moves reliable to connect" patch.
 
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Kokiden

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I have a feeling the balance team think that things are pretty good for most of the cast since they seem to be dialing back on it.

What a shame if that's the case since a lot of characters desperately need buffs...
 

Nekoo

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I have a feeling the balance team think that things are pretty good for most of the cast since they seem to be dialing back on it.

What a shame if that's the case since a lot of characters desperately need buffs...
I think it's more like, they don't have as much Data as before with offlines tournaments.
Online is a source of data, but before? Lots of "Big Balance patches" were made in direct responses to the community and how Big Tournaments happened/results, especially for Top tier/High tiers buff/nerfs
 

StrangeKitten

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I think it was pretty clear that stock lead just delayed it, and stock deficit made it spawn later. "The accumulated damage isn't the only factor that determines if you're in danger. The overall state of a battle is also a factor. For example, if you have more stock [sic] than your opponents. Even when your damage exceeds 100%, the wing still won't appear... Oh, it finally appeared. If you're at a stock disadvantage, you can achieve Winged Form at only 30% damage."

It's not a bug, Sakurai said in the direct that it can go away after taking a stock, not that it always will. I always thought that part was pretty clear but seems many people missed it. "You can also lose it by KO'ing an opponent." Key word here being "can", not "will". So yeah, you might lose it, but you might not, I think it probably depends on whether you have a lead or not, I don't know exactly how it works though. I sure hope it's not RNG...
So probably a case of misinterpretation on my part, and not-completely-clear explanation on Sakurai's part. The latter of which you can't really blame him, because Japanese translates weirdly to English.
 

Thinkaman

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As expected, no balance changes. (I tried to tell you!) I wouldn't be surprised if all of the listed QoL fixes actually shipped in 10.0.0 last week.

In actual news, we should probably talk about Northern Cave. If NC replaces Kalos in most stage sets, that has pretty big implications for many characters just like Small Battlefield over PS2.

For example, :ultlittlemac: is a huge winner. Kalos is/was his single worst legal stage, yet Northern Cave--where he can full hop onto the platforms and even cover them with up-smash and grounded side-b--is likely one of his better stages..
 

The_Bookworm

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My predictions on what this patch has turns out to be correct.

Not mentioned in the past notes, but :ultcloud:'s new final smash using his Advent Children costumes, Omnislash Ver. 5, is now in the game.

The Final Fantasy spirits have been added to the game, and there is a whopping 13 of them.
This is the most amount of new DLC spirits out of both Fighter's Pass 1 & 2!
The highest amounts previously was Joker's and Terry's spirits, both getting 11 each.
1 star: Cait Sith, Cid, Chocobo & Moogle
2 stars: Barret, Red XIII, Vincent, Yuffie
3 stars: Tifa, Aerith, The Turks & Rufus Shinra, Ifrit, Shiva
4 stars: Bahamut ZERO

The thing I love the most about Sephiroth's inclusion in Smash Bros, outside of the character himself (awesome & fun to play!), is that Final Fantasy is finally getting the content it deserves.
Previously, all it had was Cloud, Midgar, and 2 music tracks.
Now it has 2 characters, 2 stages, 11 music tracks, and 13 spirits, as well as Cloud having 2 different Final Smash animations depending on the costume.
Sephiroth's inclusion in Smash Bros is nothing more than a huge love-letter to Final Fantasy VII. Final Fantasy actually feels like it has a presence in Smash Bros, and I freaking love it!

As for balance changes, they are relatively minor. Multi-hit fixes are always welcome, but this patch doesn't really have much impactful changes, outside of Fox's forward air change, Zelda's forward smash change, and more Olimar bug fixes.

Still, even if this patch is minor in balance changes, I like the new content added, so I am relatively content with this patch.

As expected, no balance changes. (I tried to tell you!) I wouldn't be surprised if all of the listed QoL fixes actually shipped in 10.0.0 last week.

In actual news, we should probably talk about Northern Cave. If NC replaces Kalos in most stage sets, that has pretty big implications for many characters just like Small Battlefield over PS2.

For example, :ultlittlemac: is a huge winner. Kalos is/was his single worst legal stage, yet Northern Cave--where he can full hop onto the platforms and even cover them with up-smash and grounded side-b--is likely one of his better stages..
I think the biggest obstacle for adding Northern Cave as a legal stage is probably risking getting potentially DMCA-worthy music.
I do see Little Mac benefitting greatly of having this stage over Kalos.
 

Firox

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In about two hours, we are about to get update 10.1.



This patch will come with the new AC Cloud final smash, the Final Fantasy spirits, and new balance changes.
As per usual, when they release the English patch notes, feel free to place it in this thread so it is readily accessible.
(sees new patch notes)

"Whoa, they're adding consistency to multi-hits?! This will do wonders for Greninja!"

(sees buffs for Fox without Greninja anywhere in sight)

"..........."


Seriously though, looks like I was right. Hope you guys like the roster as it stands because the days of tier-flipping balances are already dead and gone.
 
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Frihetsanka

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PlasmaDam

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Has smash ult had any major Tier changing buffs in the last 10 patches also I guess Dark pit is gonna be a sleeper chracther for ever
 

PlasmaDam

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Aug 31, 2018
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and tbh the game is a decent spot rn sure some chracthers could need buffs cough cough dark pit and Corrin but there is no overly top tier
 

Djmarcus44

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Mii Gunner’s up throw got buffed to connect better. It has impacted my up throw to dj up air kill confirm percents, but the confirm is still true. I will be making updates soon.
 

PlasmaDam

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Mii Gunner’s up throw got buffed to connect better. It has impacted my up throw to dj up air kill confirm percents, but the confirm is still true. I will be making updates soon.
Huh so geno got a buff already huh 🤣 sorry bad taste
 
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So with Toon Link this patch actually fixed an issue where heavies could fall out of his aerial up-B before the final hit, giving them a free punish. Now they stay in the attack through the end. Not a major thing, but it's nice.
 

The_Bookworm

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Seriously though, looks like I was right. Hope you guys like the roster as it stands because the days of tier-flipping balances are already dead and gone.
It actually lasted longer than SSB4's balance changes.

SSB 3DS release was September 13, 2014 and patch 1.5.0 was March 16th, 2016. That is a duration of 1 year and 6 months.
Ultimate release was December 7, 2018 and patch 8.0.0 (the biggest recent patch up to this point) was June 22nd, 2020. This is a duration of 1 year and 7 months.

At this point, we have already far exceeded SSB4's patch cycle, and it is impossible to tell the density of balance changes for future patches.

Still, the game is at a relatively balanced state, so unlike in SSB4 where people were clamoring for more balance changes after 1.6.0, I am not really in a rush for drastic character changes.

So with Toon Link this patch actually fixed an issue where heavies could fall out of his aerial up-B before the final hit, giving them a free punish. Now they stay in the attack through the end. Not a major thing, but it's nice.
I was actually wondering about that, since TLink's up B LOVES to drop. Does the move feel much more consistent to you?

PlasmaDam PlasmaDam Just a friendly reminder, but try to avoid double posting in this thread. :)
 

StrangeKitten

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I wouldn't be doom and gloom about balance changes yet. It's only two major patches, and the team hasn't been able to play together much because of covid. That they were back in an office for Sephiroth's presentation gives me hope that we may yet see some balance changes in the future. Also, we don't know for certain if the remaining three are the last characters they'll add. I'd say it's likely, but more characters isn't out of the realm of possibility. And even if these next three are the final three, it's not like they have to add a fighter to make balance adjustments. We could get them without any new content.
 
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Kokiden

Smash Ace
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Apr 24, 2019
Messages
673
I think it's more like, they don't have as much Data as before with offlines tournaments.
Online is a source of data, but before? Lots of "Big Balance patches" were made in direct responses to the community and how Big Tournaments happened/results, especially for Top tier/High tiers buff/nerfs
Oh that’s a good point.

I remember awhile back, sakurai said the data showed that the win rates between characters online is between 46-56% average so... yeah if they’re only relying on online data I can see why they’re doing less now...

(Still kinda sucks though)
 
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I was actually wondering about that, since TLink's up B LOVES to drop. Does the move feel much more consistent to you?
I'm not sure, but you might be thinking of Young Link's up-B. His has always been far worse.

Toon Link's actually felt consistent to me before except against heavies, specifically the big bodies. They are so big they would get hit more times than they were supposed to and then get flung out the back, where they could back-air while I was in free-fall. Now the move works like it's supposed to. Sometimes they'll get hit one or two extra times, but they always go into the final hit, and that's what matters. Granted, I haven't done a lot of testing for hitting opponents with the back hit or anything, so there might still be some minor hiccups.

Young Link's, from what I can tell, is better but not where it should be. It still drops occasionally, but not nearly as often. The problem I noticed was when he hits in the middle of the move instead of the beginning or end. The difference is noticeable, though. It doesn't feel like people can fall out at any time for any reason anymore.

Edit: I think a big issue with Young Link's is that it doesn't suck people in enough. I'm finding that if I'm moving backward during the up-B, it's more likely to drop than if I'm going straight up or forward. That's really bad for offensive recovery during an edge-guard attempt.
 
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ParanoidDrone

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As expected, no balance changes. (I tried to tell you!) I wouldn't be surprised if all of the listed QoL fixes actually shipped in 10.0.0 last week.

In actual news, we should probably talk about Northern Cave. If NC replaces Kalos in most stage sets, that has pretty big implications for many characters just like Small Battlefield over PS2.

For example, :ultlittlemac: is a huge winner. Kalos is/was his single worst legal stage, yet Northern Cave--where he can full hop onto the platforms and even cover them with up-smash and grounded side-b--is likely one of his better stages..
I'd love to see Northern Crater (is it Crater or Cave?) legal, but there are two issues I can see standing in its way:

1. Motion sickness. I don't suffer from this personally, but I know not everyone can say the same thing.
2. Music rights. If memory serves, even BF/Omega Midgar isn't really usable on stream for this reason, and I can't see anyone being in a hurry to test if things are different post-Sephiroth.
 

SwagGuy99

Smash Ace
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Dec 28, 2016
Messages
697
Luigi's dash attack multihits got addressed which is cool I guess. Multihits on down-b weren't changed though. Up-b's issues that it has hitting characters due to how pushback and jostle work in Ultimate as well as the issues it sometimes has on characters like Plant because of the z-axis weren't fixed though. I'd argue that of these three main consistency issues Luigi had, while dash attack's multihits didn't work great, especially at ledge, it was the least in need of a fix. Dash attack does work a lot better though, I just don't know why it was deemed to be the priority change Luigi needed.

I've also heard that characters still seem to fall out of Young Link's up-b (but less frequently) and the changes to Duck Hunt's f-smash now make it worse than it was before since while the first hit was given more hitlag, the second hit was given less.

Overall, I'm disappointed with this patch. Didn't really address anything that should have been addressed such as giving small nerfs to top tiers/wifi top tiers as well as buffing characters that have been frequently ignored by the patches and some of the changes that were made were somewhat lackluster, such as in the case of Duck Hunt.
 
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