Official Competitive Character Impressions 2.0

[PK Gaming]

I feel like we're not talking about Inkling enough.

Inkling is super popular, does decently at high level play, and was hyped to death as the next big thing close to release. Inkling's roller nerfs were rather modest and haven't changed any of this. I think pretty much everyone would put Inkling in their top 12, minimum?

But what's her deal? How have her matchups evolved? How is speculate she will shake out against Joker?

(Mario is also flying under the radar for how well he is performing, but Inkling is new and more of a conversation starter.)

She's an extremely demanding and difficult to play at high level

Frame tight throw combos, you have to mix up your movemenr constantly to throw people off, getting the KO can be difficult at times

We've also seen her lose to non-meta threats like Bowser (though I suspect Bowser will increasingly become more prominent as the meta progresses)

I think her skill ceiling is enormous, but the path to getting there wont be straightforward.

As for Joker, I feel like she's an infuriating matchup vs non-Arsene Joker, but that's just based on my own experience.

 

[Thinkaman]

She's an extremely demanding and difficult to play at high level

Frame tight throw combos, you have to mix up your movemenr constantly to throw people off, getting the KO can be difficult at times

We've also seen her lose to non-meta threats like Bowser (though I suspect Bowser will increasingly become more prominent as the meta progresses)

I think her skill ceiling is enormous, but the path to getting there wont be straightforward.

It's odd (though certainly factual), since normally more demanding characters are rare--characters like ICs and Shulk and Rosalina and PAC-MAN have always been played underproportionted to their tier.

Guess that's just another similarity between Inkling and Melee Fox, honestly; they are hard to play but everyone actually wants to play them.

As for Joker, I feel like she's an infuriating matchup vs non-Arsene Joker, but that's just based on my own experience.

The Pika/Pichu matchup was called out here and mentioned by MKLeo; is this a consistent theme, that Joker's plan somewhat depends on outspeeding and suffocating his opponent? Like he clearly, at least in Leo's hands, has no trouble with Peach and Snake.

How would he fair against other fast characters, like Sheik and Squirtle? (Remember, Wishes did better than literally anyone against Leo... But I don't remember off the top of my head how much Squirtle was involved in that.) And what about Fox?

Edit: Rewatched Wishes vs Leo; it was definitely the Ivysaur Super Show, but Squirtle tended to hold his own and do his job while he was out. The same cannot be said for Charizard, who did get a few important usmashes but was largely a liability.

 

[NotLiquid]

I feel like we're not talking about Inkling enough.

Inkling is super popular, does decently at the highest levels of play, and was hyped to death as the next big thing close to release. Inkling's roller nerfs were rather modest and haven't changed any of this. I think pretty much everyone would put Inkling in their top 12, minimum?

But what's her deal? How have her matchups evolved? How is speculate she will shake out against Joker?

(Mario is also flying under the radar for how well he is performing, but Inkling is new and more of a conversation starter.)

Since I'm usually the one who brings up Inkling around these parts, I'm generally in agreement with PK Gaming. Most of what makes Inkling such a potent character is partially stonewalled by similar issues a few other aspiring top tiers have to deal with, which is her barrier of entry above the mid-level being deceptively difficult to really wrap your head around. The higher you aim to reach her ceiling the more her shortcomings have to be worked around through plays that are not that simple. "Tough to kill with" is the common catch-all critique people use against her as a bit of a lazy shorthand, but what it really translates to is; can you ledgetrap? Can you pull off an especially demanding kill confirm? Are you using roller as a tech read? Have you developed your edgeguarding? Are you using BAir to space everything? Can you wall-of-pain with her aerials? Etc.

The sky's the limit with this character, but again we often end back up in the same spot that I usually repeat myself with in these threads; Smash players normally want simpler. It's why I still think Joker, despite very likely being a top 5 character, won't actually see the same volume of representation as characters like Olimar have had throughout the months. Though again, she had a pretty good run at SnS5, since there were three Inkling mains in Top 48 and one co-main. I'll never get the sense that Cosmos carries this character when he's never been within the realm of a top 5 player the same way players like Tweek are; the most admirable thing about him is how dedicated he's been in solo maining this one character when just about every top 10 player whipped out secondaries and pockets at some point in bracket, despite maining top tier contenders. He can still shoot higher, and I generally agree with Armada that the character is kind of undervalued in a meta that overestimated her too quickly and became reticent against her because of it.

Anyway, the fact that she carries good values across advantage, disadvantage, and neutral, means any MUs she has that are losing tend to usually be down to some volatile factors. Most people I've seen and interacted with tend to think she overall has a rock solid MU spread, with no real "hard counters". Back in March, Cosmos believed she had only four MUs that were losing ones. Speaking personally, I have "opinions" on some MUs.

- The character that's on everyone's mind after last week. Despite the explosive performance, I think the MU is even at best for Bowser. It's hard not to imagine otherwise when LeoN's performance was a complete wallop, but then I don't think anyone's about to argue that Nairo's Ganondorf beating Light means that Fox loses that MU.

That being said, I can see her most volatile MUs generally being against heavies. Dedede mains for instance, believe that they have a solid MU against her, and to be frank, I think to some degree this is a unique blindspot because Inkling's oft-touted killing problem are exacerbated against heavies having survivability and kill power. Here's the thing though; Inkling's highest results at a top level come from Cosmos, and Cosmos isn't particularly known for being a "defensive" player. His set against LeoN exhibited all the things you don't do in the MU - you don't aggressively land, you don't rush at your target just because they're easy combo fodder, you don't neglect your neutral tools, and you don't neglect spacing. The Inkling Discord had a JMU against the Bowser Discord the other day where Inklingcord won 3-0, and if there's anything I learned from watching those matches it's that Splattershot is an exceedingly underrated special. Despite the fact that Inkling loses her precious jab, this is a move that completely stymies Bowser at point blank range and creates more delicious combo fodder out of him. Moves like that, and Splat Bombs, generally do wonders in keeping button-heavy superheavies at bay. Inkling is great at being aggressive, but let it never be said that she isn't capable of playing lame. That's the kind of restraint Inkling players are going to have to be a little more cautious about if superheavies burst back into ubiquity.

- Usually considered Inkling's "worst" MU from most accounts, and at least from what I've seen, it's something I'm inclined to agree with. ROB is able to confirm into so much damage and kills off of simple moves and frametraps rivaling that of Inkling's that there's usually not much she can counteract in this MU outside of her raw mobility. Unfortunately even Gyro makes that a tough proposition as it's a nightmare that keeps Inkling unable to approach, and this is one of the few MUs where Inkling doesn't really have too many privileges if she's recovering off-stage; rotor being pretty much the best off-stage kill move that isn't the Nikita. Thankfully once you're in-range against ROB, her moves generally outmatch his own, and his aerials, despite ludicrous hitboxes, are fairly easy to predict and counteract, so it's not all bad news. Assuming that dreadful jab 1 buff gets fixed, anyway.

- This used to be considered a losing MU, and after the patch, it.. probably still is somewhat (though Dabuz always thought the MU was even), but I'd be more inclined to say it leans more even now - at least for the time being that the shield stays the way it does, Inkling's BAir is going to be a lot more threatening. But having a recovery that's weaker and smashes that are more punishable means at least some of Inkling's overall QoL problems are less of an issue here.

- Most likely an even MU, given that this is a character who, despite getting a serious kill power boost in mid percents, can be reasonable spaced, as well as edgeguarded within most iterations. I don't actually have too much experience in this MU. I think this may ultimately be an extremely player dependent MU, momentum factors a lot with these characters.

- Cosmos actually believes Inkling wins this MU. I suspect that has predominantly to do with being extremely susceptible to Inkling's off-stage shenanigans. If he's the best in the game... good news for her, I'd suspect.

- A low-key nightmare matchup which I thank the heavens for his unpopularity that I only have to see him once every blood moon.

 

[|RK|]

- The character that's on everyone's mind after last week. Despite the explosive performance, I think the MU is even at best for Bowser. It's hard not to imagine otherwise when LeoN's performance was a complete wallop, but then I don't think anyone's about to argue that Nairo's Ganondorf beating Light means that Fox loses that MU.

That being said, I can see her most volatile MUs generally being against heavies. Dedede mains for instance, believe that they have a solid MU against her, and to be frank, I think to some degree this is a unique blindspot because Inkling's oft-touted killing problem are exacerbated against heavies having survivability and kill power. Here's the thing though; Inkling's highest results at a top level come from Cosmos, and Cosmos isn't particularly known for being a "defensive" player. His set against LeoN exhibited all the things you don't do in the MU - you don't aggressively land, you don't rush at your target just because they're easy combo fodder, you don't neglect your neutral tools, and you don't neglect spacing. The Inkling Discord had a JMU against the Bowser Discord the other day where Inklingcord won 3-0, and if there's anything I learned from watching those matches it's that Splattershot is an exceedingly underrated special. Despite the fact that Inkling loses her precious jab, this is a move that completely stymies Bowser at point blank range and creates more delicious combo fodder out of him. Moves like that, and Splat Bombs, generally do wonders in keeping button-heavy superheavies at bay. Inkling is great at being aggressive, but let it never be said that she isn't capable of playing lame. That's the kind of restraint Inkling players are going to have to be a little more cautious about if superheavies burst back into ubiquity.

The issue with JMUs - outside of the varying skill levels - is that performances like these can easily push the meta of a character. Bowser is a character that was previously thought of as mid-tier at best, and incapable of the performances he's been making via LeoN's guidance.

As a personal anecdote, I'm noticing that Joker players are finally starting to use Gun at all levels thanks to Leo, not to mention smarter use of Tetrakarn offstage.

As far as Splattershot, it's an interesting option - but it pushes the opponent away. Plus, Bowser does have Fire Breath, and the question remains - if Cosmos decided to play more defensively, would LeoN have adjusted as well?

In either case, I look forward to seeing them play again.

Also agreed on Yoshi. If only he were rarer >: (

 

[Rizen]

The issue with JMUs - outside of the varying skill levels - is that performances like these can easily push the meta of a character. Bowser is a character that was previously thought of as mid-tier at best, and incapable of the performances he's been making via LeoN's guidance.


Also agreed on Yoshi. If only he were rarer >: (

Who says mid tiers are incapable of performances like Leon's? Especially super heavyweights can look high tier on their good days. Bowser's probably the best super heavy but he isn't preforming on the level of high tiers overall. This is just like Lord Mix's run in SSB4.

 

[The_Bookworm]

Side-bar: I want to see more proof that it fixed things, but Duck Hunt's uair QoL fix is probably the most impactful QoL fix in 3.1, and the closest to a straight up major buff. No character relies on a specific janky multi-hit more than KO-starved Duck Hunt does on his uair.

Other notable multi-hit buffs worth pointing out:
Up smash is notorious for not connecting properly. Due to how the opponent is launched, it can still a bit gimmicky for all the hits to connect in certain instances (I found big bodies to get somewhat inconsistent as they can get in the way on front of Samus), but it now connects much more reliably. A pretty nice buff to them (there is also certain Shinespark-esque jank with it now thanks to the first hit changes lol). (Note: this change, for the most part, applies to as well).
Their up smash was not very good prior to the buff to it. The move is rather hard to land in neutral and the multi-hits can sometimes fail to work. The reward for landing them wasn't enough to compensate. Literally any other smash attack and even aerials is better than using up smash (that might still be true after the buffs). Regardless, the multi-hit fix is an overall pretty nice buff.
His up tilt prior to the buff is straight up not worth using. Somewhat hard to land, it failed to work half the time, and the reward is not enough. G&W mains rarely use this move at all. Now because the first hit has set knockback, it now connects to the second hit pretty much 100% of the time (it even works at 999%). It is still a rather niche move in his moveset, but it nice to have a fully functioning up tilt in his arsenal now.
Another up smash buff. It is not as impactful as the one with Samus and Chroy, but it is pretty nice regardless.
This is a big one. Plasma Whip is an already great move with the ability to net KOs at a distance, or choose to put the opponent in a position for followups. The fact the move is even more consistent to land is pretty nice overall.
Charizard's jab is pretty much prone to not always connecting into eachother reliably. This is a pretty nice consistency buff to the character. All we need is that forward air autocancel buff now.
Seems like a simple jab buff. For the most part, it is. However, R.O.B. players have discovered that this move can now lock the opponent towards him. This, in conjunction with down tilt, can lead to some inescapable damaging locks. A pretty nice buff to this character (like this character needs more BS in his arsenal ).
His jab actually functions properly. Nice!
Another up smash buff. Villager's up smash had some notable trouble connecting to the final hit, so thanks to this buff, Villager has a more reliable KO option to catch jumps.
Wii Fit's jab, which buries, now connects into eachother more properly. This character is getting closer and closer to a higher tiered threat (just needs a means of reliably approaching now).
HIS FORWARD TILT FINALLY WORKS!!! Been plaguing this character since the SSB4 days. Now he has more reliable quick option to set up edgeguards, poking tool, and potentially KO tool. A really nice buff to the character (which is also combined with the large buffs to his jab).
The side B and up B multi-hits finally connecting properly are huge buffs. Side B is notorious for not always connecting properly, so a buff to that is huge. Not only the buff to his up B make it no longer fail to work under certain circumstances, but it more reliably pulls the opponent to the final hit, which makes its KO'ing ability more consistent (which is combined with the move's KO power by itself also increasing, aside from the medium version). These two buffs alone are one of the main reasons why Ken (and to some extent Ryu) is such a talked about character right now. Nata Otoshi Geri also got a similar treatment.
Similarly to Charizard and Wolf, Incineroar's jab has some pretty noticeable difficulty connecting into eachother. This change is pretty nice buff to one of Incineroar's close quarter options.



Here are two multi-hit changes also worth mentioning, but they still have issues:
They made forward air connect more reliably by itself, which is pretty nice buff to Rosa's ability to contest with approaching aerial opponents. However, it still has reliability issues. The move still doesn't really connect when Rosalina is moving in particular directions. Mii Brawler's and Falco's neutral air both suffer from a similar issue.
They made her up tilt connect more reliably, which is cool buff to her anti-air game and slightly patches up the large mess that is called her combo game consistency. Although this change alone is no where near enough to fix her combo game consistency issues, the up tilt regardless still has difficulty connecting into eachother despite the changes. Maybe next time Bayo...

 

[Fenriraga]

Samsora put out another tier list.

...And he thinks Joker is the best character in the game.

Golly, I couldn't imagine what would make him think that.

 

[SwagGuy99]

Samsora put out another tier list.

...And he thinks Joker is the best character in the game.

Golly, I couldn't imagine what would make him think that.

Without watching his explanations yet (and I will later) I'm glad Pikachu is above Pichu as I firmly believe that Pikachu is better (I believed this even before the nerfs to Pichu) due to his consistency.

Bayo and Diddy are both pretty high but if Diddy's changes are as good as I think they might be, his placement may actually be pretty reasonable.

Duck Hunt and Zelda are both quite high. I kind of have trouble placing Duck Hunt (to me he doesn't seem like he does as well here as in Smash 4 but an argument could be made for either case). Zelda, however, is probably a low tier with some niche matchups in the higher tiers, at least in my opinion.

Ice Climbers in B Tier is actually really weird. They have some stuff, but pulling it off consistently is way too hard for them to ever be higher than low-mid tier.

 

[Fish&Herbs19]

I feel like a lot of people talk about Isabelle, and particularly her jab without knowing much about the properties of the move. So here's a video created by someone from the Isabelle discord detailing the uses of her jab:
Isabelle jab uses

 

[The_Bookworm]

I feel like a lot of people talk about Isabelle, and particularly her jab without knowing much about the properties of the move. So here's a video created by someone from the Isabelle discord detailing the uses of her jab:
Isabelle jab uses

The video has been removed by the user.

In terms of jab usage, it does provide a nice KO setup thanks to its stun at high percents (especially at the ledge). However, outside of that, jab doesn't really do much at all in lower percents, and it still has very low range regardless of its niche ability or not.

Edit: it also only really works if the opponent is on the ground. On the air, it doesn't really do anything other than weakly hit the opponent.

 

[NotLiquid]

Samsora put out another tier list.

...And he thinks Joker is the best character in the game.

Golly, I couldn't imagine what would make him think that.

On a given day I'd swap Roy/Chrom and Wario in their respective tiers but other than that I can't really find much fault with where S, A and half of B characters fall into. In particular I find myself kind of agreeing with the notion that Fox might actually miss the top 10, since I've felt for a while like some of his fundamental flaws sort of caught up to him sooner than the cast of characters that are currently above him - most of which, honestly, are probably the most rounded top 10 a Smash game has had in a long while.

That being said, given that Olimar's shield is most certainly an oversight I'm a little hesitant about dropping him a whole tier on the off chance that one of his big drawbacks may be remedied soon.

 

[Fish&Herbs19]

I feel like a lot of people talk about Isabelle, and particularly her jab without knowing much about the properties of the move. So here's a video created by someone from the Isabelle discord detailing the uses of her jab:
Isabelle jab uses

Sorry, new link below.
https://youtu.be/Vryqd90U_P4

 

[Ziodyne 21]

Who says mid tiers are incapable of performances like Leon's? Especially super heavyweights can look high tier on their good days. Bowser's probably the best super heavy but he isn't preforming on the level of high tiers overall. This is just like Lord Mix's run in SSB4.

Also look at YB's 13th place at Prime Saga with . Or even Ratio getting 2nd with at Come to Papa 3 and 3rd at Umbura Japan Major So yeah, they can be. This is not like Smash 4 where Bayo and Cloud basically invalidated most mid-low tiers competitvely

 

[Thinkaman]

Also look at YB's 13th place at Prime Saga with . Or even Ratio getting 2nd with at Come to Papa 3 and 3rd at Umbura Japan Major So yeah, they can be. This is not like Smash 4 where Bayo and Cloud basically invalidated most mid-low tiers competitvely

Obligatory mention of Aussie K. Rool. It'll be interesting to see a "top performance achieved" listing 12 months in.

 

[PK Gaming]

The Pika/Pichu matchup was called out here and mentioned by MKLeo; is this a consistent theme, that Joker's plan somewhat depends on outspeeding and suffocating his opponent? Like he clearly, at least in Leo's hands, has no trouble with Peach and Snake.

How would he fair against other fast characters, like Sheik and Squirtle? (Remember, Wishes did better than literally anyone against Leo... But I don't remember off the top of my head how much Squirtle was involved in that.) And what about Fox?

Short characters are definitely a pain. MKLeo flat our refuses to fight Pikachu/Pichu for a reason, and characters who can weave out of Joker's range and force him to chase after them are annoying. His aerial normals might be amazing, but they're a bit awkward to use against them in particular.

Sheik I think isn't too bad of a matchup though.

 

[The_Bookworm]

Also look at YB's 13th place at Prime Saga with . Or even Ratio getting 2nd with at Come to Papa 3 and 3rd at Umbura Japan Major So yeah, they can be.

Other mid tiers with a pretty impressive placement is Sonido and his 5th placement at Come to Papa 3 (I think he defeated Samsora and ScAtt during that tournament). There is also basically everything Maister and Trela have done in their Ultimate careers so far, especially for the former. There is also Riddles impressive performance GOML 2019.


Yeah. Mid tiers are secretly broken characters.

 

[|RK|]

Who says mid tiers are incapable of performances like Leon's? Especially super heavyweights can look high tier on their good days. Bowser's probably the best super heavy but he isn't preforming on the level of high tiers overall. This is just like Lord Mix's run in SSB4.

I believe this tournament was significantly more stacked than the one Lord Mix did well at, if memory serves me well. So I wouldn't make that comparison

EDIT: While we're here, why are Samus and DH just mid tiers, again?

 

[Nidtendofreak]

I believe this tournament was significantly more stacked than the one Lord Mix did well at, if memory serves me well. So I wouldn't make that comparison

EDIT: While we're here, why are Samus and DH just mid tiers, again?

Because somebody has to be, frankly a very large portion of the cast has made splashes at least once or twice.

 

[|RK|]

Because somebody has to be, frankly a very large portion of the cast has made splashes at least once or twice.

Of course someone has to be, but then who are the high tier characters?

Someone has to be in any given tier. But mid tier is starting to sound soupy, just like in S4.

 

[LightKnight]

Because somebody has to be, frankly a very large portion of the cast has made splashes at least once or twice.

While Samus may in fact be mid tier I think characters should be placed in tiers to represent the game factually rather than to look 'pretty'.
On a similar note, if the game is more balanced than the average game enough that the whole cast is actually really close in viability to each other then that should be represented. To solve this we'd have to go back and ask how we define the tiers like "Low Tier' or Bottom Tier" and if the characters really seem to fit that definition assigned to the title. If no character is truly a "bad" character than that should be represented within the tiers as we shouldn't need to discourage others from using a character thats supposedly only slightly worse than everyone above them.

 

[PK Gaming]

The utter void that is Mid Tier speaks to the strength of this game's balance, I think

It also sells the idea that trying to define Mid Tier is pointless. A character is Mid Tier until they aren't, which for people who main unconventional characters

 

[Ziodyne 21]

The utter void that is Mid Tier speaks to the strength of this game's balance, I think

It also sells the idea that trying to define Mid Tier is pointless. A character is Mid Tier until they aren't, which for people who main unconventional characters

Mid tier? heck who is even in the area of "High tier" anymore. I mean what before 3.1.0 many people considered all of the under that term

With being contested between top and high tier depeding on who you ask

Now with 3.1.0 With certain top-tiers getting nerfed and certain low and mid tiers getting some very considerable and promising buffs. The high-tier pool may grow further. I think there is going to be 2 split parts of high tier at this point

 

[|RK|]

Mid tier? heck who is even in the area of "High tier" anymore. I mean what before 3.1.0 many people considered all of the under that term

With being contested between top and high tier depeding on who you ask

Now with 3.1.0 With certain top-tiers getting nerfed and certain low and mid tiers getting some very considerable and promising buffs. The high-tier pool may grow further. I think there is going to be 2 split parts of high tier at this point

More than that, I think we're def feeling the effects of Smash 4... Because I feel like more than 10 characters are in top tier, but people are using top 10 and top tier interchangeably.

Which is also part of my point - high tier is also not really defined, so how do we know who's mid? Dark Samus could be low-end of high tier for all we know. What makes a char high tier vs mid?

If 9th and 13th are the placements we can expect from a mid tier character, then should high tiers regularly make top 8?

Then who's top tier? The chars Leo uses to win a tournament? Hopefully my confusion/questioning makes more sense now.

 

[DunnoBro]

- Cosmos actually believes Inkling wins this MU. I suspect that has predominantly to do with being extremely susceptible to Inkling's off-stage shenanigans. If he's the best in the game... good news for her, I'd suspect.

Nah, it's mostly the uthrow uair. Snake's size, fall speed, and frame 4 (and often staled) airdodge just makes it extremely reliable, even if just for damage and maintaining juggle positioning. Especially since his landing flowchart largely only guarantees quicker, lighter punishes like grab.

Splattershot is also stupid good general pressure vs snake since he can't easily jump over to punish it, and it detonates grenades on shield/pull/toss. (And of course sets up for better Booyah kill confirms)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yud4WM2rqD0

Perfect example of what I mean. Shutting down his neutral, and killing him consistently off-grab. (All but 1 stock, really.)

Though I don't think it's really too bad for Snake, Inkling just gets to play the game and Snake mains aren't used to that.

 

[Phoenix_is_OK]

He was carried up from 81.2% off a single utilt. With a true combo. That STILL did 60%

I don't think THIS needs 'fixing'

True combo, before DI and SDI of course.

 

[Envoy of Chaos]

Again just want to throw it out there but with a game like this I think a shift from the old and restrictive method of placing characters in a tier should be replaced with a tier chart or graph like used in for FGC titles. They more accurately describe a character's overall power in a way "top/high/mid/etc." cannot.

 

[Lacrimosa]

Other notable multi-hit buffs worth pointing out:
Up smash is notorious for not connecting properly. Due to how the opponent is launched, it can still a bit gimmicky for all the hits to connect in certain instances (I found big bodies to get somewhat inconsistent as they can get in the way on front of Samus), but it now connects much more reliably. A pretty nice buff to them (there is also certain Shinespark-esque jank with it now thanks to the first hit changes lol). (Note: this change, for the most part, applies to as well).
Their up smash was not very good prior to the buff to it. The move is rather hard to land in neutral and the multi-hits can sometimes fail to work. The reward for landing them wasn't enough to compensate. Literally any other smash attack and even aerials is better than using up smash (that might still be true after the buffs). Regardless, the multi-hit fix is an overall pretty nice buff.
His up tilt prior to the buff is straight up not worth using. Somewhat hard to land, it failed to work half the time, and the reward is not enough. G&W mains rarely use this move at all. Now because the first hit has set knockback, it now connects to the second hit pretty much 100% of the time (it even works at 999%). It is still a rather niche move in his moveset, but it nice to have a fully functioning up tilt in his arsenal now.
Another up smash buff. It is not as impactful as the one with Samus and Chroy, but it is pretty nice regardless.
This is a big one. Plasma Whip is an already great move with the ability to net KOs at a distance, or choose to put the opponent in a position for followups. The fact the move is even more consistent to land is pretty nice overall.
Charizard's jab is pretty much prone to not always connecting into eachother reliably. This is a pretty nice consistency buff to the character. All we need is that forward air autocancel buff now.
Seems like a simple jab buff. For the most part, it is. However, R.O.B. players have discovered that this move can now lock the opponent towards him. This, in conjunction with down tilt, can lead to some inescapable damaging locks. A pretty nice buff to this character (like this character needs more BS in his arsenal ).
His jab actually functions properly. Nice!
Another up smash buff. Villager's up smash had some notable trouble connecting to the final hit, so thanks to this buff, Villager has a more reliable KO option to catch jumps.
Wii Fit's jab, which buries, now connects into eachother more properly. This character is getting closer and closer to a higher tiered threat (just needs a means of reliably approaching now).
HIS FORWARD TILT FINALLY WORKS!!! Been plaguing this character since the SSB4 days. Now he has more reliable quick option to set up edgeguards, poking tool, and potentially KO tool. A really nice buff to the character (which is also combined with the large buffs to his jab).
The side B and up B multi-hits finally connecting properly are huge buffs. Side B is notorious for not always connecting properly, so a buff to that is huge. Not only the buff to his up B make it no longer fail to work under certain circumstances, but it more reliably pulls the opponent to the final hit, which makes its KO'ing ability more consistent (which is combined with the move's KO power by itself also increasing, aside from the medium version). These two buffs alone are one of the main reasons why Ken (and to some extent Ryu) is such a talked about character right now. Nata Otoshi Geri also got a similar treatment.
Similarly to Charizard and Wolf, Incineroar's jab has some pretty noticeable difficulty connecting into eachother. This change is pretty nice buff to one of Incineroar's close quarter options.



Here are two multi-hit changes also worth mentioning, but they still have issues:
They made forward air connect more reliably by itself, which is pretty nice buff to Rosa's ability to contest with approaching aerial opponents. However, it still has reliability issues. The move still doesn't really connect when Rosalina is moving in particular directions. Mii Brawler's and Falco's neutral air both suffer from a similar issue.
They made her up tilt connect more reliably, which is cool buff to her anti-air game and slightly patches up the large mess that is called her combo game consistency. Although this change alone is no where near enough to fix her combo game consistency issues, the up tilt regardless still has difficulty connecting into eachother despite the changes. Maybe next time Bayo...

And then you have and . Their multi-hits still don't work properly. Especially Zelda's fsmash. That move kills but it's so easy to fall out of it.

 

[Ark of Silence101]

Why is it that always seems to get a free pass into top tier in pro players's perception(despite 6+ months of tournament results showing otherwise) solely because of "POTENTIAL"?

 

[Diddy Kong]

Why is it that always seems to get a free pass into top tier in pro players's perception(despite 6+ months of tournament results showing otherwise) solely because of "POTENTIAL"?

I would argue that Greninja has way more potential than Shulk, yet he’s rarely talked about. Shulk just gets the favor due to being a swordie I guess, and early meta game really made them popular. Honestly I can’t picture Shulk being better than Roy, Chrom or Lucina honestly. Probably as viable as Cloud and Ike if anything.

Also, I still think Diddy beats Joker. Joker has just slow enough frame data for Diddy to punish his ground attacks reliably, and before Diddy could do the same to Lucina. Yet it was never explored much because Lucina could gimp Diddy very easily. I still think Diddy wins these matchups, if only slightly due to his superior ground speed, and the others having just enough lag for Diddy to punish them with Banana. Diddy still has quite some troublesome Top Tier matchups as Wolf, Fox, Pikachu (Pichu is actually quite do-able even before the buffs of 3.1.0), Wario, Olimar, Snake and Inkling but the off set is he manages to do well or go even against Lucina, Palutena, Peach and a lot of the High Tiers except Mario and Mega Man. Maybe Link and Young Link as well.

 

[Sean²]

Why is it that always seems to get a free pass into top tier in pro players's perception(despite 6+ months of tournament results showing otherwise) solely because of "POTENTIAL"?

This question has been vetted many times in this thread. You could probably go back 100 pages and find multiple discussions on it. An answer is never found, and the consensus basically remains the same, that "the right person needs to pick him up and master the Monado stuff and he'd be super scary". Well, that person isn't showing up, next to zero current top players want to main him, and his current mains aren't making a huge splash.

Fairly sure most top players who make tier lists kind of hivemind off of each other in this regard, because they don't know how else to rank the character. They tout the crazy parts of the Monado but tend to ignore how slow a lot of his attacks are when not using the speed art.

I would argue that Greninja has way more potential than Shulk, yet he’s rarely talked about. Shulk just gets the favor due to being a swordie I guess, and early meta game really made them popular. Honestly I can’t picture Shulk being better than Roy, Chrom or Lucina honestly. Probably as viable as Cloud and Ike if anything.

Also, I still think Diddy beats Joker. Joker has just slow enough frame data for Diddy to punish his ground attacks reliably, and before Diddy could do the same to Lucina. Yet it was never explored much because Lucina could gimp Diddy very easily. I still think Diddy wins these matchups, if only slightly due to his superior ground speed, and the others having just enough lag for Diddy to punish them with Banana. Diddy still has quite some troublesome Top Tier matchups as Wolf, Fox, Pikachu (Pichu is actually quite do-able even before the buffs of 3.1.0), Wario, Olimar, Snake and Inkling but the off set is he manages to do well or go even against Lucina, Palutena, Peach and a lot of the High Tiers except Mario and Mega Man. Maybe Link and Young Link as well.

I'm not a Lucina or Marth main by any regard, but I was very surprised by how back and forth the Diddy matchup was for her while playing it for several hours last night. I had to be extremely careful with choosing my buttons, or I ate a big chunk of damage for no reason. I'd say it might actually be close to even. When I play Wolf in this matchup, it's just so much easier. Albeit I know that character much better, most of his tools beat Diddy's comparable tools in just about every regard.

3.1 actually lets him play, now that his recovery isn't super free.

 

[ARISTOS]

Mid tier? heck who is even in the area of "High tier" anymore. I mean what before 3.1.0 many people considered all of the under that term

With being contested between top and high tier depeding on who you ask

Now with 3.1.0 With certain top-tiers getting nerfed and certain low and mid tiers getting some very considerable and promising buffs. The high-tier pool may grow further. I think there is going to be 2 split parts of high tier at this point

IMO this is more due to the fact that the game is early-this will all sort itself out as time passes.

The 4-dimension tier lists may also be better at characterizing this game

actually feels pretty good now, the taps they did to a bunch of moves make playing the character not a chore

 

[Impax]

The majority of the cast feels good. Even little mac has been getting praised by sol.

 

[Thinkaman]

The majority of the cast feels good. Even little mac has been getting praised by sol.

I think Mac is the most fashionable character to hate on. He's hard to compare to others though, because how sensitive he is to stage and rules. I know I'm beating two dead horse at once here--that it's hard to define "worst", and that stages matter a lot to Mac--but unless you have both drilled into your head you'll fall for the memetic evaluation.

Mac on his worst legal stages is definitely the worst character in the game. Mac on FD is definitely not the worst character in the game.

How you combine those two simultaneous realities into a holistic opinion on the character involves a great deal of subjectivity.

(This was always true in Smash 4, but the difference is bigger now because far more stages bad for Mac are legal.)


I would sooner say that "the worst character" at 99th percentile play is Kirby, Bowser Jr, Mii Gunner, or K. Rool. I think there's a floor to how bad Isabelle can be due to just having slingshot, and Pocket doesn't hurt either. Plant and Mii Brawler also have a few tools that hedge them a bit.

I watched Mr. L's K. Rool grand finals, and it left me impressed with Mr. L and unimpressed with the character. His opponent was falling for a number of K. Rool gimmicks that we would not expect to see play out at higher tiers of play. Like, these are both good players, but no one is going to be taking MKLeo stocks with K. Rool platform d-smashes.

Still, the speed, armor, and kill threat K. Rool has is a functional package. He's like DK with a focus on gimmicks, which isn't terrible. I suspect that he really dislikes Joker though. (Slow projectiles are Rebel Guard fodder, dair can't 2-frame the tether, slippery to execute hard reads on, vulnerable to his projectiles + reflect not really an option, hard to grab.)


Edit: I am willing to bet that the biggest bois (+ Incin) prefer Pichu to Pikachu. It probably takes around 2 fewer hard reads to kill Pichu: 1 because he's lighter, 1 because of self-damage. Pikachu can harass slowpokes all day, Pichu can't necessarily. And the more damage Pichu has to build on an opponent, the more of a drawback that self-damage is.

 

[bc1910]

Since he’s been mentioned a couple of times, what is the consensus on Greninja at the moment?

My worry for Greninja right now is his lack of results at the very top level. He’s 11th on OrionStats but displays symptoms of Ness Syndrome given his strong results at regional level with very little to show for it on a national level outside of Japan. Even there, Lea is the only Greninja regularly making top 8 and he still isn’t winning stuff. Greninja has some great individual wins (Lea over VoiD, Stroder over Tweek, Venia over Light) but struggles to get those wins at the necessary consistency to achieve meaningful national results.

Dabuz and Leo both dabble in the character but won’t commit to maining him and Leo jumping on Joker, a fundamentally similar character, is disheartening. Dabuz has gone as far as to call Joker a better version of Greninja which I think is completely false, but still shows how he and other top players view the frog - ultimately not worth the effort. But is it really the effort turning players away from Greninja, or are his fundamental flaws as a character genuinely too great to overcome at top level?

From a matchup perspective Greninja’s spread is amazing. The only MUs he’s commonly agreed to lose are Pikachu, Snake and sometimes Inkling, and results against Snake have been improving drastically with Stroder beating Salem at the charity tournament and Loaf forcing Broadway off of Snake just last weekend at SNS5. Pika and Inkling are very winnable as well with most games/sets with those characters still being close.

I would love to see the extent of Greninja’s potential by seeing him piloted by a tip top player at the level of Tweek, Nairo, Dabuz, or even a level lower like Shoyo James. Stroder and JW have been doing well but haven’t quite reached these heights. Venia has serious potential but rarely, if ever, travels.

I’m struggling to get a genuine feel for Greninja’s tier placement. In practice he’s a high high tier, with an argument for low top, but I feel like he’s capable of even better.

 

[Lacrimosa]

Greninja is great but why didn't Stroder use him at SnS?

 

[Impax]

Greninja is great but why didn't Stroder use him at SnS?

Stroder is maining joker now, according to his Twitter. He didnt say it was due to the frog being bad, but just that he only enjoys playing as joker.

 

[Justin Allen Goldschmidt]

Stroder is maining joker now, according to his Twitter. He didnt say it was due to the frog being bad, but just that he only enjoys playing as joker.

I think that's actually a decent topic for discussion: how fun a character is to play to many people really does affect how hard they'll try to push the character. If a character has basic options that are fantastic but not very fun to play, sometimes they can still be a top threat, but popularity may be way down because of it, which might result in slower character meta development or weird perception (see Jigglypuff in Melee for many many years in the past).

 

[SwagGuy99]

Mid tier? heck who is even in the area of "High tier" anymore. I mean what before 3.1.0 many people considered all of the under that term

With being contested between top and high tier depeding on who you ask

Now with 3.1.0 With certain top-tiers getting nerfed and certain low and mid tiers getting some very considerable and promising buffs. The high-tier pool may grow further. I think there is going to be 2 split parts of high tier at this point

That seems like a pretty good list of high tiers. and generally seem to be considered high tiers as well by a lot of people. And I do agree, that with 3.1.0, the pool of high tiers is probably going to grow more. and could prove to be high tier in the future if their changes are as practical as they seem at first glance.

Edit: I also see potentially being dropped into high tier as well after 3.1.0. I think of his 3 big nerfs (Smash attacks, recovery, hurtbox) he probably only really needed one of those to be toned in but all three in one update is really going to hurt him.

 

[Lacrimosa]

I think Samsora got it pretty well this time around with his tier-list.
You can notice that there is some kind of notable gap between the characters of B and C-tier but the gap from A to B isn't as big. MK or Corrin as the gatekeeper of mid-tier sounds reasonable as he is the first character in this tier-list where flaws are pretty notable, but I guess some would say that about Duck-Hunt, Zelda or G&W as well. But they're also at the lower end of B-tier where they should be placed. I think Luigi and especially Falcon still have "potential" to go up into B-tier.

But it's kinda surprising he put Ganon that low but I can absolutely agree with that. Yes, he's frightening and fSmash is huge but what else does this character have besides the lingering nAir? Nothing, really. Even the recovery is bad. I think the hype about Ganon is finally gone now.

 

[LightKnight]

I think Samsora got it pretty well this time around with his tier-list.
You can notice that there is some kind of notable gap between the characters of B and C-tier but the gap from A to B isn't as big. MK or Corrin as the gatekeeper of mid-tier sounds reasonable as he is the first character in this tier-list where flaws are pretty notable, but I guess some would say that about Duck-Hunt, Zelda or G&W as well. But they're also at the lower end of B-tier where they should be placed. I think Luigi and especially Falcon still have "potential" to go up into B-tier.

But it's kinda surprising he put Ganon that low but I can absolutely agree with that. Yes, he's frightening and fSmash is huge but what else does this character have besides the lingering nAir? Nothing, really. Even the recovery is bad. I think the hype about Ganon is finally gone now.

On that note, could someone explain to me why most seem to believe Corrin is in a whole other tier above Pit when it seems to me Pit has slightly better results and representation?
Cause I have a hard time seeing Pit/Corrin being that far away from each other in the tier list, especially with Pit being lower.