Official Competitive Character Impressions 2.0

[The_Bookworm]

In the game’ current state, do you think Marth could ever be better than Lucina?

I am leaning to say no, due to the sheer inconsistency of landing tippers as Marth in the current moment, but I have been surprised before.

 

[Rizen]

IDK. It's possible for to be better but it depends on how much stronger his tippers are and weaker his sour spots are. Does anyone know the multipliers?

 

[ParanoidDrone]

I've seen it happen quite a lot since Smash 4 yeah, but I don't understand why it happens so frequently in Ultimate. As if the thrown items have a sort of gravitational pull towards them when you dash attack or do any attack with the A button. It sometimes happens so randomly as well. Peanuts are also very very easily caught.. sometimes I use it in my strategy because it eliminates certain A attack functions on my enemy, but the Banana catch at the wrong % is just certain death against Diddy if your opponents react well to it.

It's true that pretty much any A button press while over an item will result in grabbing it -- Peach can recatch her own turnips with dtilt, for instance, which I'm like 99% certain is exploitable for combos into imagination, I'm just pants at high APM stuff. (She can also avoid catching them with aerials if she's floating at the time.)

Might be worth noting that Rosalina automatically grabs items pulled in with her down special, too. That's new in Ultimate, she's just barely used now so I'm not sure if it's common knowledge yet.

 

[Kiligar]

IDK. It's possible for to be better but it depends on how much stronger his tippers are and weaker his sour spots are. Does anyone know the multipliers?

I will respond by quoting a previous post of mine from two weeks ago.

Marth’s tippers are broken. I mean, in their very concept. Without DI on Battlefield ledge v Roy, an uncharged tipper f smash kills at 33%. A non tipper kills with no DI at 95%. Getting hit by a tipper doesn’t feel fun, and missing a tipper is frustrating as well. I say they should increase tipper hitboxes, decrease tipper knockback. Someone can accidentally hit a tipper and kill you earlier than Ganondorf, or you can try your best to hit tippers and simply be outclassed by Lucina. The character needs to be fixed.

 

[Shaya]

just want to focus on this part. great post. bets ive seen in awhile. but the thing is her gameplan will always be based on comboing towards the blastzones. because her smash attacks are awful due to clanking and having a lower charge multiplierat 1.2 (1.1 in witch time) than the rest of the cast at 1.4. next options bayo player considered was using witch time but then it became apparent how bad the counter is. relying or hoping to land a witchtime is hopeful at best. View attachment 217920
rencently, it was also figured out how the game determines witch time duration. havent had time to fuly read but it is pretty telling: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1cEg4gKeRbwL_teRthOnmH-E3Rs_wXa66HNOFkxYkBaA/edit?usp=sharing
so bayo players moved full circle back to combo game. her gameplan is very much locked into comboing off the side. her gameplan is not flexible. name of the game is taking stocks and she's horrible at best at it.

They're being cautious with witch time for sure. It can probably afford to be in it's current state of giving low hit stun, but have a better duration.
Alternatively they could maybe reduce the duration even more and give it slightly more hit stun. Marth/Lucina's uhhh, air/lay/wind/water (it was something like that) custom special counter gave them 3f start up over 6, like third'd the active window, but it was super amazing [killed early] and I wish we had that instead, no one inherited it in this game either.

In the game’ current state, do you think Marth could ever be better than Lucina?

Marth -is- better than Lucina.
This post brought to you by the 'I don't know how to yeet forward smashes as marcina' gang (or more like, I just don't want to).

If/when we get accurate dancing blade hitbox visualizations, we may figure out exactly how we're meant to space and time it to get more consistent tippers (just about every marth player I talk to concedes "IT'S JUJU MAGIC").
Marth's forward tilt is an extremely impressive move. It's tipper is generous. It's generaly safe on block. The sour spot combos into the sweetspot. It's the safest, fastest, longest ranged kill move both characters share and Lucina's really is NOT a kill move.

Marth's a lot more his own character in this game, whilst Lucina is very similar to Marcina in S4 (in at least the way she is currently played / focused upon).

Things like bair (it's not like tipper bair isn't stronger - it's just a lot more tricky for koing than Lucinas) and persistent-blade smash attacks are the only heavy things going against Marth in comparison. Situations where using smash attacks are the go to punish do genuinely feel awful as Marth.
But, a lot of people (including myself) kinda feel their smash attacks are just too unsafe in this game anyway, Leo's remarks of people "falling for stupid ****" is the Marth player in him screaming out imo.

Jab is the future.

I doubt he'll be looking to stand out as a better choice than Lucina any time soon. But in this early part of the game where "attacking a lot" is a more pronounced trend than "spacing/midrange pressure + not attacking", Luci is the star child of the former, while Marth's potency likely (and ability to break attrition with success) resides in the latter.

 

[SwagGuy99]

But yeah, as long as this character exists big bodies have an insanely difficult MU-Robin bullies these characters incredibly hard.

Which super-heavy would you say has the best matchup vs Robin? I'd argue Bowser because of his range, speed, and tough guy, but I'm curious to hear your opinion on this.

 

[DelugeFGC]

Which super-heavy would you say has the best matchup vs Robin? I'd argue Bowser because of his range, speed, and tough guy, but I'm curious to hear your opinion on this.

Incineroar, easily. Revenge alone takes a lot of Robin's long range pressure away, and Lariat / Side-B makes mid/close range hell too. Incineroar doesn't even feel like a SH in this MU. Cat's slow as HELL, but Robin isn't exactly speedy either, so overall Roar does okay in this MU imo.. his aerials being as good as they are does a lot to help, even if they lose out. Revenge makes ranged options a bad idea most of the time because of how fast it is combined with Robin's moves not being perfect in terms of their startup.. that by itself makes a HUGE dent considering what Roar can do to you with Revenge built up.

 

[Arthur97]

They're being cautious with witch time for sure. It can probably afford to be in it's current state of giving low hit stun, but have a better duration.
Alternatively they could maybe reduce the duration even more and give it slightly more hit stun. Marth/Lucina's uhhh, air/lay/wind/water (it was something like that) custom special counter gave them 3f start up over 6, like third'd the active window, but it was super amazing [killed early] and I wish we had that instead, no one inherited it in this game either.

I think it was Lai, and I wish Lucina had gotten it to differentiate.

 

[Sean²]

In the game’ current state, do you think Marth could ever be better than Lucina?

Only in visual design. Marth is a hotter girl than Lucina could ever dream of being.

But really, no, because the game was designed around speed, not precision.

With a correctly functioning side B, they’d both be loads better. With a slightly larger tipper hitbox and a reliable way to combo into a tipper kill move...then it could be debatable as to who’s better. Relying on platform height being tilt-tipper-range and edgeguards isn’t quite up to snuff in comparison to the myriad of options Lucina can have in the same situations. I’ve hit Ganondorf with sour spot fairs during edgeguard situations only to have him cross me up and reverse up B me to death. Lucina wouldn’t have that problem.

I think my time playing Marth over Lucina has made me an overall better player though, considering how you absolutely need to learn to use space properly with Marth if you want to have any semblance of success. Lucina can wail anywhere within sword range and get what she needs out of it.

 

[DunnoBro]

I think the engine change from more edgeguards vs ledgeguards also hurt Marth.

In smash 4, which was very heavily ledge-trap based as opposed to edgeguarding, it was very feasible to take advantage of tippers. Even if just to make challenging standard get-up shield safer.

While he still has that, Lucina deters high recoveries, as well as actually edgeguards better. And a LOT of top tiers like to recover high. (Snake, Olimar, Chus, etc)

 

[DelugeFGC]

I think the engine change from more edgeguards vs ledgeguards also hurt Marth.

In smash 4, which was very heavily ledge-trap based as opposed to edgeguarding, it was very feasible to take advantage of tippers. Even if just to make challenging standard get-up shield safer.

While he still has that, Lucina deters high recoveries, as well as actually edgeguards better. And a LOT of top tiers like to recover high. (Snake, Olimar, Chus, etc)

What? Going high with Olimar is usually akin to suicide. Olimar recovers best through a mixture of Side B pressure, unweighting his Up B and then getting to the ledge (and hopefully catching something like a Purple or a Red during your recover before hitting the ledge so you can be ready right after) and going from there. You CAN get back to the stage high in some situations, yes, but in a lot of relevant MU's as I said.. it's usually suicide. Olimar does not have fabulous landing options, so unless they just don't expect it (as in you use it as a mixup or something) going high is usually always a bad idea in most important MU's. The 'bounce' landing lag from his freefall post-recovery is nasty and the only way to avoid it is to recover a bit lower down than you might want (aka in range of aerials off of platforms) via NAiring out of the Up-B or something. NAir is not a great landing tool, and DAir is far better as a punish for pressing advantage too hard during a juggle than it is an actual landing option but it CAN be used too.. not consistently though. The little dude has bad disadvantage, this is just a part of that. The point is, while Olimar can sometimes recover high, outside of using it as a mixup it's rarely the optimal way to go.

Snake has a DAir with a percentage output higher than most of Ganon's normals (all? I forget, DAir and NAir do a metric assload of damage if all the hits connect) that doubles as a wonderful landing and OOS option.. that's frame 7. Olimar has nothing like that, so going high isn't usually advised with him.




On another note.. the Marth vs. Lucina question has been something I've struggled with for a while. Marth seems to be better only in theory as of the current point we're at in the meta in terms of results alone. The tipper can do some pretty busted stuff, yes, but in no world can you pretend landing it consistently in Ultimate is possible.. at least right now. Side B's inconsistency alone is a huge problem for Marth, the hitboxes on that move are straight witchcraft.

 

[Wunderwaft]

I've been thinking hard of who could be the best super heavy and it's a tie between Bowser and Donkey Kong.
Both hit hard, have good combos, and have a really linear recovery. I'm leaning slightly towards DK since he can edgeguard better than Bowser, after all, DK has the benefit of having a non-suicide down aerial when he needs to him someone below him.

 

[Diddy Kong]

DK basically has a Wall Of Pain that can KO anyone with bad or linear recovery before 60-70% or so. And it's very, very easy for DK to rack up that damage with his enourmous range, and quite fast attacks.

The more I discuss DK, the more I want to play him. He was always my most used secondary, but I might just make him my co-main alongside Diddy. Because for once, they are regarded to be around the same level of viability.

However, where I think DK truly shines instead of Bowser is his Giant Punch, and while Bowser has more guranteed shield breaker attacks with Down B, DK's Headbut is more reliable because it's faster and grounded. Giant Punch is just about the most treatening move in the game, and automatically needs proper respect. Thus I feel there's more fear in fighting DK, because he can take stocks easier most of the time. Yes Bowser can technically finish off opponents earlier, but DK can do it more consistently.

 

[DelugeFGC]

DK is great, but at the end of the day he genuinely might have THE worst disadvantage of all the heavies, I have an easier time getting out of combos as even Ganon. I still think people underrate DK, though.

I think Incineroar is extremely underrated and if he ever got even a slight increase in speed, questions over best SH wouldn't even be happening. I also think people are WAY too hard on Ganon, he has clear flaws but you cannot discount viability in a character that can win off of a few reads, whiff punishes or a single low-to-mid % FSmash. He has a lot going for him in Ult, and I think the toss up between best SH is between him and Roar atm. Bowser is great, but Bowser is also pretty memeulous and cheesy imo and once you learn the MU / how to play around him.. about the only real threats in neutral he has are flamethrower and grounded Up B. Otherwise, he's very easy to keep out, at least Ganon has Wizard's Foot and Roar Side-B and Revenge.

People who think Roar's recovery is genuinely 'the worst' or even bottom 3 don't know how to recover as Incineroar. His recover is pretty linear, yes, but overall he has pretty decent horizontal gain with Side B and his vertical gain isn't horrible if you have a jump still. Is it a good recovery? No, but it's not a Little Mac / Belmont recovery either.

In the current meta, I'd probably HAVE to say Bowser is the best SH, but as the meta grows and such? I don't see him holding that position.

 

[Lacrimosa]

People aren't really hard with Ganon but people are getting ware that this hype character Nairo pulled out at Collision isn't that great at all and that he has clear flaws. People start realizing this more and more now, but that's not being "hard" to the character.
The real problem with Ganon is still his hideous recovery. That's also a big reason why I consider Falcon even worse than Ganon in this game. Bowser's recovery is actually pretty good. Yes, it can be spiked but it has the best vertical gain out of all the SH recoveries. And it has a lot of horizontal range, too. When it comes to recovering back on stage, where most SH fall apart, Bowser still has the best chances to get back.

 

[DunnoBro]

People aren't really hard with Ganon but people are getting ware that this hype character Nairo pulled out at Collision isn't that great at all and that he has clear flaws. People start realizing this more and more now, but that's not being "hard" to the character.
The real problem with Ganon is still his hideous recovery. That's also a big reason why I consider Falcon even worse than Ganon in this game. Bowser's recovery is actually pretty good. Yes, it can be spiked but it has the best vertical gain out of all the SH recoveries. And it has a lot of horizontal range, too. When it comes to recovering back on stage, where most SH fall apart, Bowser still has the best chances to get back.

Err, I dunno. Bowser and DK have one of the easiest recoveries to two-frame due to the slow startup, and horizontal grab. It's a little matchup-specific as to who punishes the hardest, most reliably (Wolf, Inkling, Swordies, etc) but it definitely gives the edge to ganon's recovery in those MUs for sure. Like, it's obscenely easy. Even more than most non-sweetspot recoveries.

And outside of two-framing, they're honestly just about as likely to get rocked offstage as ganon.

So on a consistent basis, I think Ganon has the edge in regards to recovery.

 

[DelugeFGC]

On no realistic level could I ever even concede to Falcon being worse than Ganon.. that's just lunacy imo. Falcon is a character I think damned near EVERYONE is too hard on. I think far too many people want to play Falcon like they did in another game and aren't capable of using his speed (he's still like the second fastest character in the game) and their own patience to get results during neutral. So many people want to play Falcon like it's Sm4sh and try to abuse a teleport grab that no longer exists. Nobody also seems to properly utilize his NAir.

Falcon has a handful of actual problems. Rockcrocking, his turnaround animation and raptor boost seems to love to randomly whiff. Other than that, he's pretty solid and in the right hands imo is on the lower spectrum of high tier.

Also Ganon's recovery is absolutely piss, rockcrocking alone makes life for Ganon a nightmare, at least Falcon isn't ALWAYS doomed by it.. Ganon is.

 

[Diddy Kong]

The best recoveries amongst the heavies are K.Rool and Dedede. They also generally live the longest.

 

[DelugeFGC]

The best recoveries amongst the heavies are K.Rool and Dedede. They also generally live the longest.

I don't know, D3 is a somewhat easy meteor most of the time.. even when he goes low. I do not find D3 hard to edge guard at all, at least K.Rool's recovery has an active hitbox above him during.. though it's also pretty easy to punish as every K. Rool on the planet it seems loves to go low and snap to the ledge.. which is REAL easy to punish with a lot of characters.. not that going high is any better an option, which is precisely why I don't consider the Croc's recovery to be good in the slightest.

They got distance, yeah, but the linearity of their recoveries does make them really easy to edge guard. The only heavy I'd say is easier to edge guard is DK, he dies literally for free offstage. At least Ganon's recovery can stage spike you and kill you if you don't rockcrock tech it, DK has pretty much jack to stop someone and his recovery is a pretty bad recovery.. it's good onstage though at least in some situations.

Best recovery of any heavy imo is probably Charizard. With his multiple jumps he gets a ton of vertical gain overall by the time he needs to Up B and his Up B actually has an active hitbox on it when it's rising.. which D3's does not. K.Rool's recovery is far more linear and punishable than Zard's, too. Zard also can NAir or FAir (multiple times, even) to protect himself offstage as long as he's not against projectile throwers or big disjoints. In terms of distance AND consistency, I definitely have to give the 'best SH recovery' award to 'Zard.

 

[Browny]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kKyPqbjCqkY

These matches highlight so well what I'm trying to say. Zaki is a godlike player capable of taking out MKLeo, so no one would ever question his skill. But his decision making, and a lot of the decision making I am seeing by people playing against joker is absolutely awful when it comes to edgeguarding. He repeatedly tries to 2-frame Jokers tether recovery over 4 matches which of course is impossible and he never landed a single hit offstage. Outside of Zaki, most times I see people just stand on stage and let joker recover for free.

I'm incapable of changing my mind on how viable joker is until I see people start to actually go after him properly.

I wonder how this makes DK mains feel. I bet they wish their opponents would just stand still and let them recover for free.

 

[Diddy Kong]

That might be because of the characters you are playing. You play Olimar I see. Does Olimar even go off-stage honestly? I have little understanding of the character ever since Brawl honestly.

Anyway, I do agree Charizard has a good recovery. But Flare Blitz is easy to punish honestly if you know where he's gonna land.

Heavies in general have exploitable recovery. I find DK's easy to work with, because it's literally the same in each and every game so it's easy to adjust to. As a DK secondary or main, you'll instantly know if you're gonna make it back or not. I often live up till 200% easily with DK. Whereas I feel that the other heavies die quite a lot earlier.

Then again, it might be personal preference honestly... because I feel like all the heavies are kinda easy to expoilt honestly. I just prefer because he's got options to KO. Ground opponents with Headbut and hit them with a charged F Smash, break shields with Headbut and kill same with F Smash, barrage them with B Airs off-stage, spike them with F Air, D Air, Ding Dong, land Giant Punch out of nothing, cargo off-stage throws... That's why I think he's fun to play, and quite effective.

I also play Ganondorf and K.Rool, but less frequently. But am sure most people can play any heavy weight if they are adjusted to one of the other heavy weights. They play quite a bit homogenous this game. Exceptions are maybe Charizard and Ridley.

 

[DelugeFGC]

Isn't Ridley just a regular heavy, not a true SH? I've never looked into his details much, but I'm pretty sure he's not actually a SH. Which sucks for him, honestly, as he has pretty much all the cons of a SH with little to none of the pros.

 

[Hippieslayer]

N NintendoParty

Gonna Link this cuz I figure some people mostly just hang out in this thread and not the rest of the forum (thats what I do):

https://smashboards.com/threads/this-is-how-when-and-where-smash-pros-kill.483428/

 

[Sean²]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kKyPqbjCqkY

These matches highlight so well what I'm trying to say. Zaki is a godlike player capable of taking out MKLeo, so no one would ever question his skill. But his decision making, and a lot of the decision making I am seeing by people playing against joker is absolutely awful when it comes to edgeguarding. He repeatedly tries to 2-frame Jokers tether recovery over 4 matches which of course is impossible and he never landed a single hit offstage. Outside of Zaki, most times I see people just stand on stage and let joker recover for free.

I'm incapable of changing my mind on how viable joker is until I see people start to actually go after him properly.

I wonder how this makes DK mains feel. I bet they wish their opponents would just stand still and let them recover for free.

I've played against numerous Jokers and basically just go off no matter what if I'm playing a character with a good recovery. The tether is super vulnerable to any hitbox until he touches the ledge so unless he goes from tether to snap before you go off, you can generally hit him with any broad and long-lasting hitbox. Then you run into the situation of whether he can tether again or not. He's almost free against anyone who can go super deep.

It's similar to the Belmonts, so if you're used to gimping them out of their tether, this shouldn't be that different. Instead of looking out for Holy Cross to cover their recovery, you have to look out for Eiha, and so on. I don't know exactly what Zaki was trying to do - maybe he was looking for a hitbox that hits below ledge to catch him rising?

Another thing about Joker, the initial Sheik comparisons are starting to look stupid. He seems like more of a campy/hit and run character while she's still an oppressive rushdown type.

 

[Nah]

though you undervalue the use of default thunder, as it can accomplish the goal of forcing jumps much more effectively than elthunder, and at much less cost to durability as well.

Thunder probably has more uses than I get out of it but I always find it a bit lacking in oomph as a deterrent in most MUs, as not enough of a threat. I can def see the potential though and will try to incorporate it though.

I think it depends on whether or not the opponent's offstage. Thunder is probably better onstage, as the relative speed that you can chuck them out with (and the speed of the spell itself) will more likely force a jump/option out of your opponent to take advantage of. Offstage though Thunder doesn't have the range or power to be enough of a threat to force anything out of people. You can just stay out of range or even eat the Thunder because it won't kill you. Elthunder though means that the opponent has to make the choice between risking getting killed by Elthunder or risk jumping and dealing with an incoming Levin aerial (that will also kill you).

For this sort of scenario anyway.

 

[DelugeFGC]

I think Joker is a mid tier without Arsene, and a top tier with him. The end result is some, bastardized low high tier.

But honestly, I'm starting to warm up to the idea of him just being regular old mid tier. Not lower than that, though.. and if so, high-mid for sure.. but man he really does struggle in some areas. Arsene or not.

 

[SwagGuy99]

In the current meta, I'd probably HAVE to say Bowser is the best SH, but as the meta grows and such? I don't see him holding that position.

I think in the future, the best super-heavy will be DK once people learn better ways to get out of disadvantage as DK. However, if that doesn't happen, I still see Bowser as the best super-heavy actually.

Edit: There are reasons why I don't see any other super-heavy as the best either than one of these two and here's why:

• is too slow and his recovery is kind of exploitable.
• is too slow and is a very gimmicky character with poor frame-data. Disadvantage also sucks.
• is too slow.
• is too gimmicky and hard to play.
• doesn't really excel at anything and has a horrible disadvantage, even when compared to the other heavies.
• When I think about , I think about . They are very similar in a lot of ways and I don't ever see as the best heavy.

 

[ARISTOS]

Which super-heavy would you say has the best matchup vs Robin? I'd argue Bowser because of his range, speed, and tough guy, but I'm curious to hear your opinion on this.

Not actually a Robin main so I would probably defer to the two in this thread ( Avokha Nah )

Quickly running through them all from my POV:

: Haven't played this enough. Tough Guy takes jab out of the equation at low percents and dair can break Robin's juggles but being a big body hurts in the MU as Robin will likely win all air-to-air exchanges. Once Bowser is sent off the level life becomes difficult, but of the different heavy MUs this is probably one of the less polarizing (BC Bowser is the generalist of the heavy class)

: Similarish in that Robin is generally setting the pace of the MU and the threat of Arcfire, which hits these guys hella easily, is ever-present. Losing neutral is REALLY bad for Robin in these MUs, like the character can lose entire stocks off of one loss. But generally Robin should be winning here I feel.

: Robin doesn't like DDD's traps. DDD does not like uair/traps. It feels even? I suck fighting this character though.

: Super important that Robin remains mobile/is putting out Thunder/Elthunder to control Ganondorf's movement and prevent his zonebreakers from opening you up. If you play slow, Ganondorf will hit nair on shield and then you're in a lot of trouble. Arcfire ledge traps don't work as well due to Ganon's low ledge hang, but he can't really ledge jump well and Fire is already controlling getup so as long as you can read rolls it isn't that bad. MU becomes insanely harder when Levin is not out. Elthunder/Levin traps can lead to super cheesy KOs though which is important.

: Haven't played this at all lol

 

[Nah]

I'm not sure which superheavy I'd say does the best in the Robin MU, but quick gut feeling right now is that it's not Bowser. Speaking of him though:

and dair can break Robin's juggles

It works a little better if you come from the side a bit instead of straight under him. Can also choose to not strictly juggle and try to catch his landings with Arcfire and El/Arcthunder/Thoron too.

 

[DelugeFGC]

I think in the future, the best super-heavy will be DK once people learn better ways to get out of disadvantage as DK. However, if that doesn't happen, I still see Bowser as the best super-heavy actually.

Edit: There are reasons why I don't see any other super-heavy as the best either than one of these two and here's why:

• is too slow and his recovery is kind of exploitable.
• is too slow and is a very gimmicky character with poor frame-data. Disadvantage also sucks.
• is too slow.
• is too gimmicky and hard to play.
• doesn't really excel at anything and has a horrible disadvantage, even when compared to the other heavies.
• When I think about , I think about . They are very similar in a lot of ways and I don't ever see as the best heavy.

Incineroar's speed isn't nearly as big of a problem as some people make it out to be when he's learned properly. S'all I'm saying. He's the only super heavy you can't reliably camp.

Damned near everything in Roar's kit goes against the Super Heavy norm in terms of the options it gives him, speed is his only major issue.. and one major issue doesn't automatically throw a character into mid tier when I can name plenty of high tiers with at least one hole like that in them. He has other minor issues, sure.. but they're not the end of the world that some people make them out to be.

Incineroar is underrated and after launch hasn't seen a ton of meta development. I'm sticking to my guns on him. If he ever got even a small buff to his speed, he would be a problematic character for many in the roster, even top tiers.

Look at all the other problems you listed with other heavies. They all outnumber Roar's ONE issue. How does that make anyone else better? Bowser is simple, he's not the simplest heavy but he's one of the simplest for sure. His combo game is near non existent and he's not execution heavy. He's the most popular meta SH right now because he's the easiest to play and get results early on.

 

[Lacrimosa]

Being slow doesn't make a low/mid tier character btw. Olimar's speed is also super low but he excels at other stuff.
Being slow isn't necessarily a bad point for a character, especially if you're an Incineroar with probably the best counter mechanic in the game.

 

[DelugeFGC]

I've dumped quite a lot of time into Roar, and I too used to tier him in mid to low mid tier.. but now I'd put him somewhere at the ass-end of high tier. A lot of his problems are imagined, I'm not even just saying that, even post-buff I still see people saying Roar has the worst or one of the worst recoveries in the entire game. No he does not.

Is Roar perfect? Hell no. But he's not nearly as bad as many say he is imo. I think Big the Cat Wrestlemania Edition is a pretty good character.

 

[ARISTOS]

I'm not sure which superheavy I'd say does the best in the Robin MU, but quick gut feeling right now is that it's not Bowser. Speaking of him though:
It works a little better if you come from the side a bit instead of straight under him. Can also choose to not strictly juggle and try to catch his landings with Arcfire and El/Arcthunder/Thoron too.

Yeah dair is all or nothing, but I'm stating it as a contrast to DK/Ridley's pure nothing lol, vs them you can really just keep pushing buttons.

Vs all the heavies outside of probably DDD Robin is controlling the pace of the match but s/he really doesn't like going into disadvantage against any of them because it's a brutal ride.

 

[Anomilus]

Since we're discussing weight classes, I've been wanting to encroach the subject. It's not directly related to competitive impressions, but it does color our terminology when having discussions, so I think it's worth considering.

Why don't we just adapt the term Cruiserweight already? With how Ridley is often referred to as "that heavy that's not actually heavy", and the fact there are others around his weight class as well as the sheer size of the roster (which will increase in the future), I think it would make sense to have a Cruiserweight category.

According to this http://kuroganehammer.com/Ultimate/Weight We got Balloonweight, Featherweight, and Lightweight on one side, then Medium, and on the other side there's Heavy and Super Heavy. The Light side accounts for 24 characters and the Heavy side accounts for 25, yet the Light side is apparently willing to accommodate an extra category for just two characters. Not like it isn't sensible either as Jigglypuff and Pichu definitely deserve the term "Balloonweight".

If I were to re-categorize the upper end of the weight list, I would suggest the following:

SUPER HEAVYWEIGHT -
The indisputable long-survivors who often just won't die without gimping or an extremely powerful hit.

HEAVYWEIGHT -
Those who can still be considered heavy. The Samuses are pushing it, but they weight the same as Bowser Jr. who's known to survive a good while due to his Klown Kar multiplier.

CRUISERWEIGHT -
Still within the realm of increased survivability, but I personally wouldn't consider any of these guys Heavyweights (and by casual word-of-mouth, many fall in line with the sentiment). With Wario's chunkiness and Snake/Yoshi's armor during recovery, they can feel heavier at times than they actually are.

MIDDLEWEIGHT (formally Cruiserweight) -
Mulled this one over a bit, but honestly do any of these guys really strike as Cruiserweight let alone Heavyweight class?? It's arguable, but I think it makes more sense.

(The above suggestion also expands the Middleweight list by another three characters. In response I would suggest moving to the Lightweight category which would make the cutoff point. Makes sense to me as small Chimpanzee is still easy to picture as Lightweight, and the other two share his weight value)

So having put this out does anybody even think it's worth re-categorization? I mean I'm not just talking about discussion on this thread. I mean this should be a full broad overarching change adapted by everybody, if only to better clarify the survivability of particular characters as well as providing a more ingenuous classification. At least among the heavier characters in the game. Or does anybody think things are fine as is?

Maybe the better question is if weight class categorization is actually important? Maybe it's just convenient fluid terminology that isn't taken too seriously. I just think the subject should have evolved better than this along with the series. I mean Mario Kart adopted the Cruiserweight class and has a large roster, so why not Smash?

 

[ProfessorVincent]

Only in visual design. Marth is a hotter girl than Lucina could ever dream of being.

But really, no, because the game was designed around speed, not precision.

With a correctly functioning side B, they’d both be loads better. With a slightly larger tipper hitbox and a reliable way to combo into a tipper kill move...then it could be debatable as to who’s better. Relying on platform height being tilt-tipper-range and edgeguards isn’t quite up to snuff in comparison to the myriad of options Lucina can have in the same situations. I’ve hit Ganondorf with sour spot fairs during edgeguard situations only to have him cross me up and reverse up B me to death. Lucina wouldn’t have that problem.

I think my time playing Marth over Lucina has made me an overall better player though, considering how you absolutely need to learn to use space properly with Marth if you want to have any semblance of success. Lucina can wail anywhere within sword range and get what she needs out of it.

Agreed. Marth is very good for learning how to play Lucina.

Seriously, though. Lucina should not be a competitively better character. It should at most be MU dependent. Either Marcina mains have yet to figure out how to take full advantage of tippers (very likely), or the balancing team still has to tweak the pair. Either way, the simpler, easier to use character also being competitively more rewarding seems wrong and, ultimately, temporary. I can totally see this being discussed in the future like "remember when we actually thought Lucina was better than Marth in every MU?"

 

[Sean²]

It's still the biggest, most noticeable gap between echoes in the game, unfortunately. The rest either have negligible differences or are matchup dependent. It shouldn't be that way for Marth and Lucina. Roy's sourspots are a bit of a handicap but the sweetspot hitbox is still pretty generous in comparison to Marth's tipper. And if you're having trouble with a character outspacing your sweetspot, then maybe grab Chrom for a game or 2. For now though, with the tipper hitbox as tiny as it is, the only reason to pick Marth against a very skilled opponent is...if you just like Marth better.

 

[Arthur97]

It's still the biggest, most noticeable gap between echoes in the game, unfortunately. The rest either have negligible differences or are matchup dependent. It shouldn't be that way for Marth and Lucina. Roy's sourspots are a bit of a handicap but the sweetspot hitbox is still pretty generous in comparison to Marth's tipper. And if you're having trouble with a character outspacing your sweetspot, then maybe grab Chrom for a game or 2. For now though, with the tipper hitbox as tiny as it is, the only reason to pick Marth against a very skilled opponent is...if you just like Marth better.

Ken?

So, why shouldn't there be a difference between the two?

Agreed. Marth is very good for learning how to play Lucina.

Seriously, though. Lucina should not be a competitively better character. It should at most be MU dependent. Either Marcina mains have yet to figure out how to take full advantage of tippers (very likely), or the balancing team still has to tweak the pair. Either way, the simpler, easier to use character also being competitively more rewarding seems wrong and, ultimately, temporary. I can totally see this being discussed in the future like "remember when we actually thought Lucina was better than Marth in every MU?"

This kind of talk kind of reminds me of the Shulk talk. What good is potential if there's nothing to show for it? Maybe, he'll be developed into a better or equal choice, and maybe Shulk will show off some more of that potential in a practical setting.

 

[Emblem Lord]

IDK. It's possible for to be better but it depends on how much stronger his tippers are and weaker his sour spots are. Does anyone know the multipliers?

Screw a multiplier.

The tipper hitboxes are too small. That is the issue.

 

[ARISTOS]

Screw a multiplier.

The tipper hitboxes are too small. That is the issue.

Marth's tipper hitboxes in Smash 4 were tiny at the beginning and then readjusted to be incredibly lenient at the end of the game, which is when everyone said "Wow, Marth feels amazing, like in Melee!" (because now they can swing for free)

They've taken the tippers back a bunch, but knowing how the community likes Marth we'll likely get Smash 4 tipper generosity back at some point

 

[DelugeFGC]

For some reason, a lot of Marth players I encounter at mid-level competitive play don't seem to, as was described by another earlier in the thread, 'Yeet FSmashes' nearly as much as they should and I think that hurts the character's results, even top players sometimes don't make important enough use of FSmash.

That said, I still think Marth is being vastly overrated. It's a bit silly to say he's better than Lucina based on the possibility his tipper might get bigger in a future patch. For all we know, he could technically remain untouched forever onward, so until THAT happens or meta growth proves his viability.. Marth easily belongs a tier below Lucina, in High Tier. He's still quite good.. but Lucina is so much more consistent. If it was just speculation based off of meta growth alone, sure, but speculation based off of a patch that may never even happen is.. well, eh. I'm all for the 'in theory / what if' talk, but acting as if he is CURRENTLY better due to this is just lunacy.

Side-B is the bane of Marth, I'm convinced if that move by itself ever gets hitbox adjustments or people actually learn how to space it, Marth could jump several tier spots based on that alone.