Official Competitive Character Impressions 2.0

[Frihetsanka]

I didn't see the game but am surprised that M2K was able to triumph over ZD (who seems to be having a rough ride at Summit despite performing so well as of late).

Let's not sleep on Mew2King, he was #28 for PGR 1, #26 PGR 2, and #69 for PGR 100.

 

[The_Bookworm]

So ZeRo's final part of the tier list came out. He apparently thinks is the best character in the game, despite no Pichu players getting top 12 in Frostbite 2019.

The main thing that he brings out that makes me have some raised eyebrows, is that he thinks that Pichu's self-damage is an advantage because it can simply "damage itself out of kill confirm percents". It seems like a really big stretch and I hardly ever see this actually happening.

 

[Diddy Kong]

So ZeRo's final part of the tier list came out. He apparently thinks is the best character in the game, despite no Pichu players getting top 12 in Frostbite 2019.

The main thing that he brings out that makes me have some raised eyebrows, is that he thinks that Pichu's self-damage is an advantage because it can simply "damage itself out of kill confirm percents". It seems like a really big stretch and I hardly ever see this actually happening.

Tell him to pick up Diddy again and put some work into the character. This doesn't make sense in the slightest.

Personally though, I think Wolf is the best character in the game currently.

 

[Untouch]

So ZeRo's final part of the tier list came out. He apparently thinks is the best character in the game, despite no Pichu players getting top 12 in Frostbite 2019.

The main thing that he brings out that makes me have some raised eyebrows, is that he thinks that Pichu's self-damage is an advantage because it can simply "damage itself out of kill confirm percents". It seems like a really big stretch and I hardly ever see this actually happening.

Pichu dies to small breezes of air blowing on him, you don't even need kill confirms.
The self-damage is just negligible honestly, pichu is so light that it doesn't even matter than much, he dies anyways.

I also don't agree with Zero when he says that Peach has no killing aerials.
Fair kills very early, is safe, and is reliable.

 

[fozzy fosbourne]

Man, watching more recent high level play, I see Inkling struggling more and more to get kills. Characters living to really high percents against them if you can’t get the edge guard. There is a big change once players are in high percents where the inklings go from playing real safe to having to make a ton of hard reads.

 

[Frihetsanka]

Man, watching more recent high level play, I see Inkling struggling more and more to get kills.

This has been a thing since the game was released, Inkling's main drawback was killing (which is why I never really thought the character was the best in the game).

I also don't agree with Zero when he says that Peach has no killing aerials.
Fair kills very early, is safe, and is reliable.

ZeRo seems to have a tendency to say things that aren't true or omit to include important information.

So ZeRo's final part of the tier list came out. He apparently thinks is the best character in the game, despite no Pichu players getting top 12 in Frostbite 2019.

The main thing that he brings out that makes me have some raised eyebrows, is that he thinks that Pichu's self-damage is an advantage because it can simply "damage itself out of kill confirm percents". It seems like a really big stretch and I hardly ever see this actually happening.

Spreading misinformation + omitting to mention that Pichu's range is poor. ZeRo's previous videos also contained misinformation and omitting important details. I get the feeling he isn't actually doing much research and mostly going by what his impressions are, which is somewhat problematic when he has so much influence.

He didn't even mention how Pichu struggles vs Olimar. I still think Pichu is overrated and not a top 3 character. People find Pichu's strengths annoying and underrate his flaws (and people also suck at edgeguarding Pichu, his up-B doesn't even have a hitbox).

 

[Ziodyne 21]

This has been a thing since the game was released, Inkling's main drawback was killing (which is why I never really thought the character was the best in the game).

ZeRo seems to have a tendency to say things that aren't true or omit to include important information.

Spreading misinformation + omitting to mention that Pichu's range is poor. ZeRo's previous videos also contained misinformation and omitting important details. I get the feeling he isn't actually doing much research and mostly going by what his impressions are, which is somewhat problematic when he has so much influence.

He didn't even mention how Pichu struggles vs Olimar. I still think Pichu is overrated and not a top 3 character. People find Pichu's strengths annoying and underrate his flaws (and people also suck at edgeguarding Pichu, his up-B doesn't even have a hitbox).

It was also brought up that Pichu can also struggle vs the more "consistent" sword characters. Lucina mainly of course, possibly Roy and Ike as well?. His lack of range and lack of hitboxes on quick-attack can really bite her in those MU's.

Speaking of Inkling, yeah unlike Wolf she may actullay have some big issues actullay taking stocks. But what are her actual bad MU's . Cosmos has been doing very well recently but even he can end up just struggling to kill

 

[NotLiquid]

Man, watching more recent high level play, I see Inkling struggling more and more to get kills. Characters living to really high percents against them if you can’t get the edge guard. There is a big change once players are in high percents where the inklings go from playing real safe to having to make a ton of hard reads.

Assuming you're referring to Cosmos' set against Glutonny, Wario is a frustrating matchup for the character because Wario's preferred neutral state is one where Inkling can't reliably land some of her more reliable kill moves and confirms. There's a reason why Tweek switched back to Wario from Wolf back during Frostbite. There's also the fact that Wario is a heavy boy and basically holds a stock lead at all times thanks to waft. I feel it's one of Inkling's more frustrating matchups in the top tier, while most other candidates are actually pretty manageable.

In general, after seeing some of Armada's Inkling play I'm not entirely convinced Cosmos' edgeguarding is fully optimized.

 

[Spinosaurus]

I also don't agree with Zero when he says that Peach has no killing aerials.
Fair kills very early, is safe, and is reliable.

Watching the video he doesn't say this at all? He says her combos don't kill compared to Pichu, which is a different statement. He mentions later that she has fair and bair as kill options.

 

[Ziodyne 21]

Speaking of Pichu Nario managed to bet Void 3-2 using Palutena . I felt Pichu was one of Palu's worst MU's but maybe it is not TOO bad. But yeah, maybe yopplayers are getting better as fighting Pichu

 

[Diddy Kong]

Since we still talk about ZeRo's tier list, I don't agree with his placement of Diddy in Mid Tier. Not only is he grouped with seriously flawled characters as Ganondorf- and even considered worse than him, he has Top Tier matchups that might carry him towards High Tier. Out of experience, I would say Diddy has a good time against most sword users, most noticably Lucina, Marth, Cloud and Ike. Roy and Chrom are a bit more even because of their insane mobility. Greninja and Peach are also matchups where I feel Diddy isn't losing. Fox is about even, but probably more in Fox's favor but still managable. Same with Pichu and Pikachu. He only struggles against the likes of Inkling, Snake, Wario, Wolf and Olimar. But then again, that's still a great matchup spread against the best of the best currently.

I think Diddy is a High Tier honestly.

 

[Frihetsanka]

I felt Pichu was one of Palu's worst MU's but maybe it is not TOO bad.

Some notable Palutena players think it's Even, such as TLTC.

I think Diddy is a High Tier honestly.

Who are the most notable Diddy Kong mains right now? Zinoto uses him as a secondy now, right?

 

[NotLiquid]

In other news, Salem won Ultimate Gamer Miami which had players like Myran, MuteAce, CaptainZack, Dyr, MVD, 8BitMan, Fatality, Tamim, Lima and Goblin present. From what I recall, Salem only dropped 4 or so games the entire tournament, and he beat MVD in the Snake Ditto, although since it went to game 5 it seems like an extremely volatile matchup.

Outside of Salem not having learned how to deal with ESAM, I think he's put forth a pretty confident case that he might be the best Snake player in the game right now.

 

[Diddy Kong]

Who are the most notable Diddy Kong mains right now? Zinoto uses him as a secondy now, right?

Err yeah that's pretty much it honestly. There's no real true main for Diddy in Ultimate yet. But you can count me as one if you'd like. I only have 0 results lol.

It's not like he was massively used in Smash 4 or Brawl honestly. He was mostly carried by ZeRo.

Also I think he beats just about any character that ZeRo groups him with in the same tier.

 

[blackghost]

ignore this.

 

[The_Bookworm]

Bracket Round 1

Winner's
MkLeo 3-2 Samsora
Nairo 3-2 VoiD
zackray 3-1 Dabuz
Glutonny 3-1 Cosmos


Loser's
Armada 3-1 ZeRo
Mew2King 3-0 Mang0
Leffen 3-0 Plup
Light 3-0 ZD


Cosmos vs Armada Inkling dittos incoming!

 

[blackghost]

NotLiquid what stream was this on?

 

[Frihetsanka]

It's not like he was massively used in Smash 4 or Brawl honestly. He was mostly carried by ZeRo.

Zinoto, MVD, Nietono, Shoyo James, Edge, dyr, cyve.

 

[NotLiquid]

NotLiquid what stream was this on?

https://www.twitch.tv/ultimategamermiami

 

[Ziodyne 21]

M2K looking pretty dominant wirhth Inceneroar Altough it partly could be due to Mang0 not having the MU experinece

 

[Rizen]

Several things were brought up on the last page.

has really good frame data and I predict frame data will be increasingly important as people learn MUs and to play better. Self damage is somewhat a double edged sword but more of a hindrance. In past games with ding dongs self damage would have been worth more but now stray hits are a big factor in KOs. Pichu's top tier but his weight, or lack of, hurts. Weight matters because it determines what good trades are and survival. If you die at 60% and the opponent lives past 140% it means you have to deal a lot more damage and win more exchanges. I don't think Pichu's the best character.

I zone out tier lists; what's the point?

It's hard to be consistent at this game, even for Tweek and Leo. There are so many MUs to learn and even ones you know can surprise you. Salem's Snake is really good but MVD has a lot of results over Salem too. It's too early to judge who's the better Snake. Salem merely has the more recent results.

 

[Foie]

Loser's
Armada 3-1 ZeRo
Mew2King 3-0 Mang0
Leffen 3-0 Plup
Light 3-0 ZD

Very interesting to see Zero lose to Armada. It looks like his decision to avoid tournaments has really hurt him competitively...

As I said before; I get what you're saying, but I still think it's possible to have a respectful discussion about ness, and I am willing to put my loyalty to the character aside so this can happen.

Problem is, we've already had bucketloads of respectful Ness conversation, and there's nothing really new to talk about (or at least nothing new has been brought up). I suppose we could go back and just copy paste everything...

 

[NairWizard]

Tier list aside, ZeRo knows so much about this game. The commentary at summit has been completely garbage (most of the time), but ZeRo being on the commentary couch actually makes the tournament watchable (all the top players had this effect to some extent).

 

[NotLiquid]

I'm starting to see what Samsora meant when he said Armada has exhibited the biggest growth potential out of all the Melee players. Leffen's been really on and off this entire weekend, Mang0 and Plup both kinda phased out, and M2K is mostly doing what's expected of him right now. Comparatively, Armada's just been constantly improving his game the more I see from him. I hope he sticks with Ultimate because he's actually getting really good at it.

 

[Ziodyne 21]

Hmm Fox . He is likely a top-tier character yea But man he can seem almost as fragile as Pichu at times due to his light-weight and exploitable recovery options that give him some really questionalbe MU's with other top-tiers. Notabally Peach, Olimar and maybe Wario

 

[Nocally]

Maybe MVD is the better Snake, but Salem is the better player?

 

[|RK|]

Diddy is bad, Pichu is busted as hell.

Gonna agree with ZeRo on these points.

Tier lists are like seeding - just because the #1 didn't place where you expected doesn't mean they aren't #1. Remember how long it took Bayo to win a major tournament, before people accepted that yeah, she just might be the best?

Pichu is obnoxious to hit, with insane kill potential to mitigate the lack of range and the weight respectively. Damage output is stupid, edgeguarding is unacceptable.

Pichu can slip into your defenses/whiff punish before you know it. Then the next second, you're dead. I feel like people take her weaknesses and magnify them, due to the fact that lower level Pichus are more susceptible to getting hurt by them. You take a top level Pichu, and you'll see how rare it is that Pichu doesn't get in (and how much damage she gets when she does) + how rarely she's going to die below 100.

 

[Rocketjay8]

Diddy is bad, Pichu is busted as hell.

Gonna agree with ZeRo on these points.

Tier lists are like seeding - just because the #1 didn't place where you expected doesn't mean they aren't #1. Remember how long it took Bayo to win a major tournament, before people accepted that yeah, she just might be the best?

Pichu is obnoxious to hit, with insane kill potential to mitigate the lack of range and the weight respectively. Damage output is stupid, edgeguarding is unacceptable.

Pichu can slip into your defenses/whiff punish before you know it. Then the next second, you're dead. I feel like people take her weaknesses and magnify them, due to the fact that lower level Pichus are more susceptible to getting hurt by them. You take a top level Pichu, and you'll see how rare it is that Pichu doesn't get in (and how much damage she gets when she does) + how rarely she's going to die below 100.

In this clip, you can see Shoyo has fully downloaded Void's Pichu, throw out f smash reads, and kills him at mid percent consistently.
Speaking of Chrom, I absolutely think that his matchup against Pichu is pretty good. The consistent sword and his fast movement options help him to outrage and kill Pichu at extremely low percents. I'm not sure if it's even or slight advantage though.

 

[Heracr055]

Not sure if you guys are catching the commentary from Zero, Dabuz, M2K, etc but it's actually really insightful on how they handle player on player relationships, sharing what's in the mind of top players in & out of thec ame, etc. Some of it got pretty deep too, such as Zero talking about how M2K is struggling to find a good fit chatacter, which I imagine is what a lot of people are undergoing too. I appreciate thectalks & just wanted to touch on it.
To make a character related post...Ridley is in the same boat as hyper-offensive characters like Fox where his advantage is insane but his disadvantage is terrible. I can see Ridley in high mid because those advantage tools are actually quite good. And I think his FSmash is a move that is so fantastic with respect to risk vs reward that it skews whiffs and mistakes greatly in his favor (seriously that move can kill starting around the late 30s with just a bit of charge)

 

[The_Bookworm]

Loser's Round 2

Cosmos 3-1 Armada
Dabuz 3-0 Mew2King
VoiD 3-1 Leffen
Samsora 3-0 Light


All the Melee players are out of the tournament.

 

[|RK|]

In this clip, you can see Shoyo has fully downloaded Void's Pichu, throw out f smash reads, and kills him at mid percent consistently.
Speaking of Chrom, I absolutely think that his matchup against Pichu is pretty good. The consistent sword and his fast movement options help him to outrage and kill Pichu at extremely low percents. I'm not sure if it's even or slight advantage though.

I can show anyone losing against anyone. In the end, that doesn't say a thing about a char being bad or not. It only lets people reinforce whatever their bias is.

The thing here is specifically the word "reads." If you believe it's possible to consistently kill Pichu below 100%, show that imo. But if it's one player downloading the habits of another, I can show you that in pretty much any MU.

 

[Frihetsanka]

Pichu is clearly very good, although I think it's far from certain he's #1 (I still think it's Peach/Daisy for now, but it's early meta so who knows?). Pichu's current results aren't that impressive (5th at OrionStats), but as we should know by now results isn't everything. There's a lot of competition for the top 3 spot, and I'm far from convinced Pichu is top 3. He could be, but so could Wolf, Fox, Olimar, maybe even Inkling or Lucina.

 

[Rocketjay8]

I can show anyone losing against anyone. In the end, that doesn't say a thing about a char being bad or not. It only lets people reinforce whatever their bias is.

The thing here is specifically the word "reads." If you believe it's possible to consistently kill Pichu below 100%, show that imo. But if it's one player downloading the habits of another, I can show you that in pretty much any MU.

Umm, where have I ever said anything about Pichu being a bad character? I'm just showing you just how much Pichu's horrible weight can be a big problem for him, especially for characters like Chrom and Lucina where their large hitboxes don't care about Pichu's small hurtbox. Heck, most of the Characters that are considered to be high to top tier have very obvious weaknesses. (Fox's horrible disadvantage and weight, Inkling's problem to kill, Palutena's laggy ground game, Etc.)
Void is the highest ranking Pichu at Frostbite and is considered to be one of Chrom's worst matchup. ( I don't think it is after Shoyo slaying many notable Pichu and Pikachu players ).

 

[|RK|]

Pichu is clearly very good, although I think it's far from certain he's #1 (I still think it's Peach/Daisy for now, but it's early meta so who knows?). Pichu's current results aren't that impressive (5th at OrionStats), but as we should know by now results isn't everything. There's a lot of competition for the top 3 spot, and I'm far from convinced Pichu is top 3. He could be, but so could Wolf, Fox, Olimar, maybe even Inkling or Lucina.

This is a fair take. There are a lot of good chars... In fact, it may be that we're focusing too much on finding a clear #1. There really may be a tie between multiple chars for that spot, but we're focused on splitting hairs - but.

Umm, where have I ever said anything about Pichu being a bad character? I'm just showing you just how much Pichu's horrible weight can be a big problem for him, especially for characters like Chrom and Lucina where their large hitboxes don't care about Pichu's small hurtbox. Heck, most of the Characters that are considered to be high to top tier have very obvious weaknesses. (Fox's horrible disadvantage and weight, Inkling's problem to kill, Palutena's laggy ground game, Etc.)
Void is the highest ranking Pichu at Frostbite and is considered to be one of Chrom's worst matchup. ( I don't think it is after Shoyo slaying many notable Pichu and Pikachu players ).

Sorry, I missed a few words! "Bad against a char or not."

That said, also speaking of Summit, I love the fact that Dabuz sort of reinforced what I was just saying while he was chatting with Cosmos.

He said he tried to watch Shoyo vs VoiD, but said Shoyo was straight up outplaying VoiD & reading him.

 

[The_Bookworm]

Umm, where have I ever said anything about Pichu being a bad character? I'm just showing you just how much Pichu's horrible weight can be a big problem for him, especially for characters like Chrom and Lucina where their large hitboxes don't care about Pichu's small hurtbox. Heck, most of the Characters that are considered to be high to top tier have very obvious weaknesses. (Fox's horrible disadvantage and weight, Inkling's problem to kill, Palutena's laggy ground game, Etc.)
Void is the highest ranking Pichu at Frostbite and is considered to be one of Chrom's worst matchup. ( I don't think it is after Shoyo slaying many notable Pichu and Pikachu players ).

Speaking of which, Samsora's 3-2 victory over VoiD eliminates him in 7th place.

 

[Ark of Silence101]

I personally think Leffen should just work on his instead of going for a character that doesn't suit his playstyle().

 

[Omnos]

Doesn't seem like it matters who leffen plays at this point, he'll just blame the character whenever he loses.

 

[|RK|]

I personally think Leffen should just work on his instead of going for a character that doesn't suit his playstyle().

Eh, PT does seem to have plenty of weaknesses at a top level. Prolly smarter to get the Chrom going.

Still high tier imo, but he's splitting time between Ult & Melee, mind.

And Leffen complains a lot about his chars for sure, but he'll also acknowledge his own lack of skill.

 

[Ark of Silence101]

Eh, PT does seem to have plenty of weaknesses at a top level. Prolly smarter to get the Chrom going.

Still high tier imo, but he's splitting time between Ult & Melee, mind.

And Leffen complains a lot about his chars for sure, but he'll also acknowledge his own lack of skill.

I have seen his Roy and while it's not bad, I feel his PT could be so much more if he had more patience with Charizard's drawbacks(especially in situations like how VoiD was bodying him).

 

[|RK|]

I have seen his Roy and while it's not bad, I feel his PT could be so much more if he had more patience with Charizard's drawbacks(especially in situations like how VoiD was bodying him).

Sure, but dealing with a weak character being awful isn't what you want to do with a top tier. You hold the L, pick a better char. Or deal with the frustration that comes from blaming yourself over a char actually not being able to do something.