Official Competitive Character Impressions 2.0

[Repli.Cant]

Can the meme that has a bad recovery die? It's not bad in the slightest, just... exploitable. It's certainly not worse than most others. Up B alone leaves a lot to be desired (more angles) but it was specifically designed with his extra jumps and side b in mind. Obviously if you take those away it becomes bad; you're taking away half of what makes it above average. But this isn't , and he still gets to use his side b after getting hit.

His up b has a lot of damage, big hitboxes, goes pretty far, and gives Ridley pretty good magnet hands to the ledge if he's facing it. Down angled ver. is great at catching limbs extending and for edgeguarding since it snaps to ledge. You can straight up challenge things like K. Rool propellerpack with it and still spike him with a trade.

All in all, his recovery isn't that bad. It's different and just requires a bit of knowledge to use effectively.

 

[Diddy Kong]

Crazy thought, and probably controversial: Diddy Kong BEATS Lucina. As in, solidly. 60-40 I'd say. Lucina has worse mobility, Banana is the only thing able to truly challenge her F Smash consistantly, her aerials are punishable by grabs (not many Top Tiers currently really rely on grabs much anyway) and yeah, she's sort of tall so easier to hit with Bananas.

I swear, this character needs one solid buff, and he's gonna be crazy viable.

Excuse me as I go lose against another random online Inkling player again though </3

 

[Jotun873]

's recovery is like Link's: it's long yet exploitable and inflexible. He needs to position himself at the right angle and getting hit can ruin that. I think it has 6 angle, up, down, up right/left, down right/left. It's weird. Fortunately Ridley has extra jumps and a command grab to help. UpB is hard to challenge when it gets going and can travel down through platforms. I'd say it's a little above average.

Its four. The "semi" directions you see are his normal angles. He is automatically angled up if backwards and down if forewards.

So still four.

 

[J0eyboi]

What makes a recovery "average" becasue there are several factors that go into how good recoveries are. I mean Id say all the spacies recoveries are a bit "below average" Characters like have poor recoveries but have some tricky or nasty offstage options to help offset them. For average recoveries that can be considered middle of-the road dunno maybe?

It's hard to define an average recovery because recovery strength is determined by multiple factors. I'd say the most important of those are predictability and exploitability, or how easy it is to figure out how someone will recover and how easy it is to contest their recovery. There are recoveries that are hard to predict but easy to contest like Greninja or Pichu, and recoveries that are easy to predict but hard to contest like K.Rool. Being able to mix up your recovery is generally more valuable than your recovery being hard to contest, but both have merits. Gimpability is also a factor, but I'd argue it's far less important than either of the other two.

However, both of those things are extremely hard to quantify. There are obviously good recoveries like ZSS, Sheik, and Bayo and obviously bad recoveries like Belmonts, Mac, and spacies, but in between the two extremes is a nebula of uncertainty. We could argue for hundreds of pages about how exploitable or predictable Plant or Jigglypuff or Ness or Ridley's recovery really is without really getting anywhere because it's so player- and character-dependent, and attempting an objective analysis of every recovery in the game would probably keep you occupied until the heat-death of the universe.

In conclusion, every recovery is an average recovery because no one can recover from getting Shadow Sneaked offstage at 60.

 

[blackghost]

However, both of those things are extremely hard to quantify. There are obviously good recoveries like ZSS, Sheik, and Bayo.

I would argue that bayo no longer belongs in the list of extremely good recoveries. a character that doesn't snap ledge to me cannot have an incredible recovery. with bayo the only major upside is the distance. and im pretty sure almost everyone would agree distance alone doesnt make a recovery great. With no ability to snap ledge and very very easy hitboxes to intercept and just overpower i don't think bayo reocvery is very good.
bayo u sliving on reputation people still dont know the MU throw out a spike at ledge against a bayo (from on stage) and you can kill her.
i'd argue other characters like palutena, zelda, and pikachu/ pichu deserve consideration for elite recovery status over bayo.

 

[Rizen]

Its four. The "semi" directions you see are his normal angles. He is automatically angled up if backwards and down if forewards.

So still four.

So that's how it works. I did not know that.

 

[Planty]

What's interesting about Dabuz's performance with against Samsora is that he played very similarly to Smash 4, spacing and poking with Luma jab. In smash 4, Luma would be advanced with jabs to then poke with jabs, but here, Luma is advanced and recalled with the buffed neutral b as necessary in order to poke and space. This is actually very different from the direction most Rosa mains have been taking the character in Ultimate, playing her as a sort of pseudo bait and punish with some tricky options up her sleeve like lunar jumps as mixups. Of course, Samsora began to adapt to Dabuz's Rosa, but it bodes well for the character that she can be played effectively in two radically different ways.

The set for those interested:
https://youtu.be/CrqFmUz1q08

 

[Untouch]

Marcina's recovery is amazing (and honestly one of the best in the game) because the sword hitbox goes through the stage, making it difficult to 2 frame, it also kills and comes out very fast.

 

[Rizen]

Marcina's recovery is amazing (and honestly one of the best in the game) because the sword hitbox goes through the stage, making it difficult to 2 frame, it also kills and comes out very fast.

And the frame 1-5 invulnerability on upB in the air. They are extremely risky to challenge offstage.

 

[Goodstyle_4]

Diddy has 90 vallues of weight and has a bad recovery.

Lmao, I said LESS than 90 and even added a "nearly every" qualifier and someone still responded with a "But Diddy though!"

 

[SwagGuy99]

Personally though, I think Wolf is the best character in the game currently.

I don't know if anyone else shares this opinion, but I actually think that may be the best in the game. He's similar to (who is viewed as the best character by many) but like many people are saying about , consistency in this game is better and can be inconsistent at times, as well as being a very good example of a glass cannon.

I also think that and are also probably Top 5 although I can see people questioning being up there.

My opinion on currently is that he's very good and is definitely Top 10, but lacks the ground speed to contest characters like and . His recovery is also worse than all of the other Top Tiers which makes me think that he is another character that suffers from inconsistency at times (also because he occasionally struggles at killing).

But then again there are characters who recoveries are just unarguabally piss-poor and...of course

Don't forget !

Speaking of , what are everyone's thoughts on him? I personally don't see how they could have messed him up as bad as they did but he feels a lot worse to play in this game and just kind of feels clunky compared to the rest of the cast. Maybe it's just because I don't really use very much and am not used to his kit in Ultimate, but he seems slightly below average at best.

 

[The_Bookworm]

Speaking of , what are everyone's thoughts on him? I personally don't see how they could have messed him up as bad as they did but he feels a lot worse to play in this game and just kind of feels clunky compared to the rest of the cast. Maybe it's just because I don't really use very much and am not used to his kit in Ultimate, but he seems slightly below average at best.

In this game, Falcon is less brainless dash grabs and up airs, and more calculating and reading opponent behavior and approaches. He has been revamped in this game to a much more technical character. It is too early to tell if he is better or worse than in SSB4, but it does make sense why he feels awkward to play as in comparison.

Fatality has more thoughts on the character (check his YouTube channel for more information), and is doing mad work with him. His good Frostbite placing (17th) is telling me that he is not slowing down on improving.

 

[Rizen]

I don't know if anyone else shares this opinion, but I actually think that may be the best in the game.

If you say that 3 times out loud ESAM will appear behind you...

IMO Pika's high tier but it lacks range and doesn't have a scary advantage state. Pika's not as oppressive as top tiers.

CF's a solid mid tier. Dair>knee is powerful but CF doesn't have his old combo potential. He has good mobility and does well as a rush down/bait and punish character. CF lacks ways to shut opponents down and isn't too crazy when he gets in. He's one of those characters who seems fair and you need unfair options to really pull ahead.

 

[ZephyrZ]

I still think Ridley's recovery is still fairly bad because of how easy it is to challenge. Side-B is laggy and, being a command grab rather then a hitbox, isn't hard to challenge offstage at all. Up Special is super vulnerable at its start up and can be really lethal. Mixing it up only covers these weaknesses slightly, but it doesn't cure them, and they're pretty big weaknesses.

He's no Ganondorf but I think his recovery is definitely below average.

 

[NotLiquid]

Captain Falcon at this point, if I'm being optimistic about it, is at best a bottom of high tier character - but I'm optimistic about a lot of things and the truth usually isn't as rosy. I feel it's gotten pretty undeniable that Captain Falcon is in a worse position than he was in Smash 4, which is a bit of a damning thing to take to the bank when he was at most a high-tier gatekeeper in the previous game. If he stayed unnerfed I feel he'd actually be an extremely potent top tier candidate considering the engine changes benefit him in some ways, and many other top tiers having some glaring weaknesses to exploit (that Captain Falcon is really still a beast at taking advantage of) but right now I feel that all of the risk taking this character has to go through is to such a fault that he loses much of his pace controlling nature which was one of his biggest strengths. Couple that with the fact that edgeguarding is so much more powerful in this game (and that so many top/high tier candidates have extremely good options for it), the air dodge nerfs, and Falcon's disadvantage still being booty butt cheeks, he's fundamentally locked out of so many good options. Fatality has put in some great work with the character, and he's got some really explosive options that come in handy in the higher level, but alongside Mewtwo, I think this is one of the characters that actually got hurt a little more than people expected and is going to struggle in the long run.

 

[fozzy fosbourne]

People might be interested in this here:

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[meleebrawler]

Falcon is basically a or that trades some power and survivability for a less big body and some faster, safer moves.

 

[Ziodyne 21]

If you say that 3 times out loud ESAM will appear behind you...

IMO Pika's high tier but it lacks range and doesn't have a scary advantage state. Pika's not as oppressive as top tiers.

CF's a solid mid tier. Dair>knee is powerful but CF doesn't have his old combo potential. He has good mobility and does well as a rush down/bait and punish character. CF lacks ways to shut opponents down and isn't too crazy when he gets in. He's one of those characters who seems fair and you need unfair options to really pull ahead.

Actullay I think Falcon is a bit similar to Mario now. Where his combo game from Smash 4 is technically intact for the most part. It just getting the best combos does not come as easily as getting a grab-confrim. He needs do them though other methods

 

[fozzy fosbourne]

Which characters have the most dangerous OoS punish game, in terms of fastest OoS moves + reward they get from a punish?

 

[ZephyrZ]

Which characters have the most dangerous OoS punish game, in terms of fastest OoS moves + reward they get from a punish?

Charizard is a contender here. Up Smash is his fastest OoS attack at frame 6, and has kill potential. Sometimes it'll even hit an opponent who's landed behind him. He also has the riskier Fly which has super armor on frame 4 and also kills.

 

[NotLiquid]

Which characters have the most dangerous OoS punish game, in terms of fastest OoS moves + reward they get from a punish?

Olimar

 

[ProfessorVincent]

Maybe he should try to find a top tier that fits him?

But this funny thing keeps happening where every time he learns a top tier character it ends up in high tier the next time he talks about it.

 

[Spinosaurus]

Which characters have the most dangerous OoS punish game, in terms of fastest OoS moves + reward they get from a punish?

Olimar, Wario and Pichu and I don't think it's even close from there.

 

[ProfessorVincent]

Zero truly in the Melee team.

 

[Shaya]

Marcina up-b is (imo) kinda carrying the pair into possibly long term competitive success in a game that I believe is going to be defined by the list of-10ish on block/practically safe amazing mid range [often burst] options of the game (Wolf dash attack/blaster, Greninja dash attack, Peach Bomber, Olimar Fsmash, etc).

Might not be the best or most rewarding in a vacuum, but I'd wager most characters would trade their up-bs for Marcinas in a heartbeat rn. A frame 5, transcended, invincible, sword-disjointed out-of-shield option is essentially the only wide-spread viable tool left in the game for "traditional" fundamental based counterplay for handling the disgusting mid-range options of this game.

High key, this is how I'm perceiving the game rn - characters without the dumb mid range options are going to be left behind, the best characters are going to be the ones with those options that also are nearly void of counter play (the aforementioned). Although chars like ZSS and Fox have the capabilities to compete against such tools with their own (ZSS zair/side b, Fox ground speed with dash attack/nair), they just aren't as rewarding, safe or free 'react and press' easy.

Smash4 was heavily defined by how riskless grabs were and the order of character strength by what reward they could get from said grabs (DLC re-defining things by being devoid of the ability to be whiff punished for their entire movesets without being grab centric).
I suppose Ult's design-course is a bit more dynamic than the absurdness of dodges losing to grabs, but at least grabs required the commitment of being in proximity and was thus more telegraphed.

 

[ARISTOS]

It is too early to tell if he is better or worse than in SSB4, but it does make sense why he feels awkward to play as in comparison.

He's worse, make no mistake.

He has to guess more in disadvantage, his pokes out of run are only OK compared to the cast, and his combo starters are riskier thanks to mechanical changes (whiffed grabs are death, side-B is okay I guess but no great).

Plus now you have to deal with two Pikas, two Foxes, and Squirtle as popular meta picks

 

[fozzy fosbourne]

A frame 5, transcended, invincible, sword-disjointed out-of-shield option.

It also can hit either side and right on top of the character!

 

[Envoy of Chaos]

People might be interested in this here:

There was a problem fetching the tweet

An interesting thing regarding getup attacks is that it's possible if your character has a small enough hurtbox or has a ledge teeter animation (The animation that plays when your at the very ledge and about to fall off) that pushes their hurtbox well off stage it's possible to completely avoid certain getup attacks.

M2 might be the biggest sufferer of this since his long ranged get up attack doesn't have a hitbox close to his body as he is preforming it. A smaller character like Ness (who I tested with) or Pichu can stand at the ledge and M2 will completely whiff his getup attack. It also works against other getup attacks with a degree of consistency. (M2, Sheik and Peach were really easy to avoid for example). Competitively viable? Maybe not. Cute mixup that will land you a very hard punish since you aren't shielding a few times? Possibly.

 

[fozzy fosbourne]

One thing I haven’t seen mentioned much is Pichu’s weird 30% fast fall modifier and the difference between pika and pichu in that regard. Since I’m not a ‘chu main, how does that affect their play differently? Why do you think they gave Pichu that property?

Source:http://kuroganehammer.com/Ultimate/FallSpeed

 

[PK Bash]

One thing I haven’t seen mentioned much is Pichu’s weird 30% fast fall modifier and the difference between pika and pichu in that regard. Since I’m not a ‘chu main, how does that affect their play differently? Why do you think they gave Pichu that property?

Source:http://kuroganehammer.com/Ultimate/FallSpeed

You might notice that the fast fall modifier puts Pichu's fast fall speed at almost the exact same as Pikachu's so I suspect that's why did it - some semblance of unity between the two rather than some jarring disconnect when Pichu falls very noticeably faster for no obvious reason. It would certainly explain the weirdly specific modifier and the also weirdly specific result it gets.
Or maybe they did it because it would make Pichu obnoxious as hell to fight if he could fast fall at the same speed as Greninja. Who knows.
It's probably a mix of the two.

 

[Rizen]

Oh man, YL has one of the worst ledge attacks in the game. Some of the ratings are odd like Shulk's being so short.

One thing I haven’t seen mentioned much is Pichu’s weird 30% fast fall modifier and the difference between pika and pichu in that regard. Since I’m not a ‘chu main, how does that affect their play differently? Why do you think they gave Pichu that property?

Source:http://kuroganehammer.com/Ultimate/FallSpeed

Interestingly Plant gets the same low 40% FF multiplier as Ryu and Ken. Link has that sweet 90% iron boots multiplier.

 

[N8than]

I agree with ZeRo's opinion that the more basic characters will drop over time, and in this case I think it especially applies to characters like Lucina, Marth, Ike, and

However, both of those things are extremely hard to quantify. There are obviously good recoveries like ZSS, Sheik, and Bayo and obviously bad recoveries like Belmonts, Mac, and spacies, but in between the two extremes is a nebula of uncertainty. We could argue for hundreds of pages about how exploitable or predictable Plant or Jigglypuff or Ness or Ridley's recovery really is without really getting anywhere because it's so player- and character-dependent, and attempting an objective analysis of every recovery in the game would probably keep you occupied until the heat-death of the universe.

I feel like Ness's recovery isn't nearly as linear as it was in previous games; yes, pk thunder 2 is easier to edgeguard, but Ness has gained a new option in the form of the best directional airdodge in the game, as well as PSI magnet to stall. I've seen pros like Bestness and Awestin recover from offstage using airdodge and jump alone. Is Ness's recovery still problematic? Yes. But is it as bad as let's say, the recoveries of characters like or .

 

[Diddy Kong]

As said before, the Diddy vs Lucina matchup seems to be in Diddy's favor to me. Pichu also isn't half bad to fight against. It helps our Side B goes through Thunder Jolts and we have a range advantage and can keep up with Pichu's mobility.

 

[Nemesis561]

As said before, the Diddy vs Lucina matchup seems to be in Diddy's favor to me. Pichu also isn't half bad to fight against. It helps our Side B goes through Thunder Jolts and we have a range advantage and can keep up with Pichu's mobility.

You got any reasons as to why you believe this? Because the way I see it, Lucinas lethal offstage game vs diddys nerfed recovery, plus her kill power compared to diddys pathetic kill power is making me believe Lucina wins at least slightly. Diddy definitely still has the upper hand in neutral but he needs to win so many more neutral exchanges just to keep up.

 

[Gearkeeper-8a]

I think top players need to realize that every character even top tiers have trade offs at least right now, could be damage, combo game, weight, range, frame data, but no character has everything, overturned moves can help you but carry you is another thing, is why top players should focus more on mentality and self-health, in the long run that is better.

 

[MG_3989]

Which characters have the most dangerous OoS punish game, in terms of fastest OoS moves + reward they get from a punish?

Ness has a really good OoS punish game that I think are worth mentioning. Nair comes out frame 8 and leads to tech chase situations pretty early which could lead to PK Fire strings. Ness also has fair as a phenomenal OoS option against swordies especially on parry (comes out frame 8 out of parry) which can lead into itself and knock characters off stage to set up edgeguards, drag down, or even hit it once and just assert a ton of stage control. This is one of the reasons why although I think Ness probably goes -1 (and I don’t think he goes lower than that to anyone in the game but maybe Shulk) to the majority of the swordies in the cast the MUs are far from polarizing. Fair out of shield can also just straight box out a lot of characters with lower range without disjoints

Anyway my other thoughts on the meta lately is I really wanna see more representation from characters like Young Link and Megaman because like we were talking about before they’re seen as “potential” characters but I really do think they’re both great characters who can get results

 

[MapleBeasts]

Which characters have the most dangerous OoS punish game, in terms of fastest OoS moves + reward they get from a punish?

I think giving Fox a shoutout for Usmash here is warranted. Comes out frame 8 and has retained it's strong kill power from past games.

 

[Jotun873]

Which characters have the most dangerous OoS punish game, in terms of fastest OoS moves + reward they get from a punish?

Well mario and Dr.Mario are sitting at a fun frame 3 OoS punish with their upspecial.

And i just gotta mention bowser having his grounded up special at frame 6 and having a hitbox from all sides even if it isnt super rewarding

 

[Siledh]

Well mario and Dr.Mario are sitting at a fun frame 3 OoS punish with their upspecial.

And i just gotta mention bowser having his grounded up special at frame 6 and having a hitbox from all sides even if it isnt super rewarding

Link's UpSpecial isn't bad either at frame 7 and hitboxes on both sides.

 

[Rizen]

OoS Frame 3-F6:
Mario, Dr, Lil Mac and G&W's f3 upB seem to take the cake for the fastest, then Sonic's spring jump f4, Pac Jump, the Samus' have a f4 screw attack and ZSS' boost kick is f4 too, Marcina's dolphin slash is invulnerable f4-5 and hits f5, Charizard's Fly and True Shoryuken has armor starting f4, Diddy's Usmash is f5, Limit Climhazard invulnerable f5, Zelda, Wario, TL, (technically WFT but it's bad OoS), Bayo, Belmonts and Bowser have f6 upBs and anyone with a f3 aerial like Snakes Dair hits f6 too. K.Rool and Pit's Usmash is f6.