Official Competitive Character Impressions 2.0

[Jotun873]

I have not seen any metaknight talk yet. He seems pretty solid in this game but i have yet to see any pros play him at all.

What do you guys think about MetaKnight?

 

[The_Bookworm]

I have not seen any metaknight talk yet. He seems pretty sid in this game but i have yet to see any pros play him at all.

What do you guys think about MetaKnight?

MK seems pretty good right now. Abadango has been putting some nice work into the character. Top players are kind of mixed with him, some says that he is underrated, while others think that he is merely average.

 

[Artmastercorey]

do you feel young link is high tier? Do you feel he needs any buffs/nerfs?

 

[SwagGuy99]

I think top players need to realize that every character even top tiers have trade offs at least right now, could be damage, combo game, weight, range, frame data, but no character has everything, overturned moves can help you but carry you is another thing, is why top players should focus more on mentality and self-health, in the long run that is better.

I've been thinking this for a while. No Top Tier in Ultimate is anywhere near as busted as some of the other Top Tiers in other games such as and in Smash Ultimate, they all seem to have at least one notable weakness that keeps them from being absolutely busted.

is a fast faller and gets comboed easily and his recovery is very poor but he has a good neutral and decent range on his attacks.

has huge disjoints, long lasting attacks, high speed, and good kill potential, but struggles to recover against the majority of the cast.

gets out frame data-ed by a lot of characters and struggles against characters that can challenge her when they get up close but does well in almost every other aspect.

... And the list goes on. Ultimate seems to be much more balanced in this regard compared to other Smash games where the best characters had very negligible/unexloitable weaknesses, or their strengths covered their weaknesses to a point where it didn't matter.

 

[Heracr055]

I still find it laughable when people try to equate Bayonetta's reign with that of Meta Knight in Brawl. Real talk: she was overtuned but not broken

Edit: Agreed on the tops being more diet-top in this game

Edit 2: I'm so close to having a 2 to 1 "like" to post count ratio

Edit 3: We did it fellas

 

[Rizen]

is good but it's hard to tell how good. ATM I have him in mid tier.

do you feel young link is high tier? Do you feel he needs and buffs/nerfs?

is definitely high tier. While it would be nice to get buffs in weight and/or KO power, it's probably good YL isn't any better. He'd be absurd to fight with characters who don't have an answer to his zoning. Hopefully YL won't be nerfed; there's no reason to. His tools are already balanced by light weight and poor states. He doesn't have the tournament dominance to justify nerfs either. It's possible YL will end up better indirectly by top tiers getting nerfed.

 

[Frihetsanka]

I still find it laughable when people try to equate Bayonetta's reign with that of Meta Knight in Brawl. Real talk: she was overtuned but not broken

My thoughts: None of the current top tiers are as good as Smash 4 Sheik or Diddy Kong were at the end of Smash 4, much less Bayonetta or Cloud. The top tiers in this game seem to be much less impressive than the Smash 4 top tiers.

 

[MG_3989]

is good but it's hard to tell how good. ATM I have him in mid tier.

is definitely high tier. While it would be nice to get buffs in weight and/or KO power, it's probably good YL isn't any better. He'd be absurd to fight with characters who don't have an answer to his zoning. Hopefully YL won't be nerfed; there's no reason to. His tools are already balanced by light weight and poor states. He doesn't have the tournament dominance to justify nerfs either. It's possible YL will end up better indirectly by top tiers getting nerfed.

I can’t see YL even being a candidate for getting nerfs *knocks on wood* when Pichu, Wolf, Inkling, Olimar, etc... exist

I can definitely see him trending upwards if top tiers do get nerfed. Young Link seems to be in that top 15-25 range right now (possibly better definitely not worse), that will all benefit from top tiers being nerfed especially if it’s a bad MU for said character

After playing more with Young Link while he does have apparent flaws and sometimes killing with him can be frustrating he also has some pretty reliable confirms they’re just at higher percentages and based on stage positioning usually. I don’t think it’s enough to be a fatal flaw. Like you’ve YL is usually going to rack up damage faster than his opponent (he pretty much has to) and while there are a few characters who can rack up damage at similar rates to YL or have more kill options at lower pecentages, I think it evens out for the most part, at least in my experience

You obviously know much more about YL than I do and I may be parroting some of what you’ve already said but I’m optimistic about the character. His zoning tools are so good that they beat a lot of the cast on their own almost and the way he can switch to an aggro rushdown type combo game in an instant is pretty much unmatched and can be pretty jarring for an opponent. That versatility is a huge positive for him in my opinion. I don’t think it will be long before we see more representation and results with YL. He’s too fun, versatile, and overall just solid not to pick up results eventually imo

I still find it laughable when people try to equate Bayonetta's reign with that of Meta Knight in Brawl. Real talk: she was overtuned but not broken

Edit: Agreed on the tops being more diet-top in this game

I didn’t play Smash 4 but I know all about Bayo’s run and what she could and couldn’t do from talking to people and watching games, but I did play a lot of Brawl and people comparing her to Brawl MK probably didn’t play Brawl. Maybe people are forgetting just how oppressive MK was and Bayo is closer in the rear view mirror so it’s still fresh in people’s minds what Bayo could do

 

[Artmastercorey]

I can’t see YL even being a candidate for getting nerfs *knocks on wood* when Pichu, Wolf, Inkling, Olimar, etc... exist

I can definitely see him trending upwards if top tiers do get nerfed. Young Link seems to be in that top 15-25 range right now (possibly better definitely not worse), that will all benefit from top tiers being nerfed especially if it’s a bad MU for said character

After playing more with Young Link while he does have apparent flaws and sometimes killing with him can be frustrating he also has some pretty reliable confirms they’re just at higher percentages and based on stage positioning usually. I don’t think it’s enough to be a fatal flaw. Like you’ve YL is usually going to rack up damage faster than his opponent (he pretty much has to) and while there are a few characters who can rack up damage at similar rates to YL or have more kill options at lower pecentages, I think it evens out for the most part, at least in my experience

You obviously know much more about YL than I do and I may be parroting some of what you’ve already said but I’m optimistic about the character. His zoning tools are so good that they beat a lot of the cast on their own almost and the way he can switch to an aggro rushdown type combo game in an instant is pretty much unmatched and can be pretty jarring for an opponent. That versatility is a huge positive for him in my opinion. I don’t think it will be long before we see more representation and results with YL. He’s too fun, versatile, and overall just solid not to pick up results eventually imo


I didn’t play Smash 4 but I know all about Bayo’s run and what she could and couldn’t do from talking to people and watching games, but I did play a lot of Brawl and people comparing her to Brawl MK probably didn’t play Brawl. Maybe people are forgetting just how oppressive MK was and Bayo is closer in the rear view mirror so it’s still fresh in people’s minds what Bayo could do

Although he is very versatile and fun to play, his weakness of killing around 200% gives others more chances to come back. This becomes more apparent in high level play.

 

[Frihetsanka]

I can’t see YL even being a candidate for getting nerfs *knocks on wood* when Pichu, Wolf, Inkling, Olimar, etc... exist

King K. Rool, King Dedede, Lucario, etc. Clearly they don't nerf based solely on who top players think are the best tournament characters.

I don’t think it will be long before we see more representation and results with YL. He’s too fun, versatile, and overall just solid not to pick up results eventually imo

I think he's likely somewhere in high tier but high tiers are rarely that popular unless they're at the very top of it. Most top players don't seem to prefer a projectile based gameplay, and generally they tend to go for stronger characters, so Young Link might continue to lack wide representation at a top level. He might get a few character enthusiasts playing him and racking up results, but I doubt he's going to be a very common character. He's probably the best Link ever though (either him or BotW Link).

I'm a bit worried about his kill options, I've seen too many games already where Young Link takes a stock at like 170-180% with a nair, which isn't exactly great... Ideally you'd want to kill before 170-180%. He does have kill options but they can be played around and aren't as consistent as many other top 25 characters'.

 

[Rizen]

As I rarely kill over 160% (which is still a lot) and that's usually against super heavyweights. If someone's killing with Nair at 180% it means they aren't using YL's kill confirms very well. The average kill % with YL is around 140%.

 

[Diddy Kong]

You got any reasons as to why you believe this? Because the way I see it, Lucinas lethal offstage game vs diddys nerfed recovery, plus her kill power compared to diddys pathetic kill power is making me believe Lucina wins at least slightly. Diddy definitely still has the upper hand in neutral but he needs to win so many more neutral exchanges just to keep up.

Well that depends, Diddy doesn’t usually rush in like most other characters that Lucina is very effective against. He requires way more patience, and due to her straight forwardness, it’s easy to win neutral, and get grabs in. Doing lots of damage. F Smash is easily countered on stage, but yeah off stage you are totally right. Her kill power is indeed better, but that’s as much of an advantage as Diddy having the mobility to outspeed her range, and follow up realitively easy with Banana Throw. She’s very in your face all the time, and that’s not easily challenged in Ultimate’s rush down meta, but Diddy has easy ways around it, because she hasn’t no good answer against Banana, and he can make her ‘flow’ of movement stop easily with it. So winning neutral is actually quite easy. It’s much the same with Ike I feel, but his increased range, weight and overall power make it a little harder overall.

 

[MG_3989]

Although he is very versatile and fun to play, his weakness of killing around 200% gives others more chances to come back. This becomes more apparent in high level play.

200% is a pretty big exegaration. I rarely ever have an opponent get over 170% or so as YL and I usually kill around 140-160% or so and that’s about what I’ve seen as average for YL

But yes killing at later percentages is an issue

 

[N8than]

I'm a bit worried about his kill options, I've seen too many games already where Young Link takes a stock at like 170-180% with a nair, which isn't exactly great... Ideally you'd want to kill before 170-180%. He does have kill options but they can be played around and aren't as consistent as many other top 25 characters'.

That reminds me; does it seem like there are a lot of prominent characters that have a hard time killing? It just seems that a lot of characters have inconsistent or only a handful of kill options.

 

[fozzy fosbourne]

If you were to put the top to high tier candidates in a tier list based on their kill potential (including variety of options and safe-ish confirms), what might it look like?

I was thinking about this recently, how people describe Wolf as someone with trouble killing, but he seems to be able to play his normal neutral game while fishing for a kill instead of becoming really focused on one or two moves. So much of his basic kit starts becoming dangerous as the percents rise. Peach, Chrom and Ike seem similar to me, but I'm a little less experienced with the former.

 

[Sean²]

That reminds me; does it seem like there are a lot of prominent characters that have a hard time killing? It just seems that a lot of characters have inconsistent or only a handful of kill options.

I'm not an expert on every character, but I don't think there are quite as many true, easy to pull off, kill confirms in general in this game. Usually it involves fishing for something, or getting reads with actual kill options like smashes. Not quite like Smash 4 where many characters could confirm kills off a single grab. I mean, there are some obviously well-known ones like Ike nair to uair, Chrom/Roy jab to fsmash, Fox nair to usmash, etc. But they can't get it off a move that negates shield like a grab, they actually have to commit to an option and circumvent your own defenses for the clean hit. A lot of players are wary of just throwing out things they deem risky, so they go for the safer options. Which most of the time, are damage builders that aren't going to kill you until you're at a very high percent anyway.

However, I think people are beginning to inch away from the Smash 4 mentality, and respect the shield less since shieldstun is higher. Poking shield isn't as scary, shieldgrabs are laggier and you can generally spotdodge fast enough to punish their shieldgrab attempt if you think they're gonna grab. You can go for what would have been an unsafe option in the past with a little more confidence.

 

[MG_3989]

If you were to put the top to high tier candidates in a tier list based on their kill potential (including variety of options and safe-ish confirms), what might it look like?

This would be interesting and I 100% advocate somebody doing this but I don’t have the time, knowledge, or energy to put that together lol

If we’re considering Ness a high tier, which I think we should (I know, I mention him too often but he’s who I know), he’d probably be up near the top in terms of killing. He has confirms off of DJC magnet at various percents. He has reverse magnet to bair. He has dragdown uair confirms. He has dair to uair on stage which confirms. He has back throw. He also has a ton of viable raw kill moves including bair, PKT2, Uair, PKT off the top, nair, yo-yo at ledge, f-tilt at ledge, fair edgeguards, dair spikes, tech chases to pk fire bat, and I might be missing some. For all his shortcomings he has no problem killing

Another top/high tier character I know that has a lot of safe confirms and no problem killing is Greninja

Obviously Fox has his confirm into Usmash

Raw kill moves seem to do a lot of work in this game too not just confirms

You guys can help me out with the rest

 

[Corra]

Perceived top characters with kill setups do seem less likely to fall off because of them. But it's really not the end-all. I keep talking about PT but Ivysaur is a great example. She has ridiculous combos out of a grab, and can sometimes confirm out of close range Razor Leaf. But the move that starts that chain itself (grab) is kinda lousy. Wolf epitomizes the opposite end of the spectrum; his kill moves are largely quite safe to throw out. He also has confirms into Flash that trade stocks that may end up becoming central to his gameplan in the future, but they're not what make him great imo.

Anyway Pichu has both and is the best character in the game :^)
Thank you for coming to my Ted Talk.

 

[ligersandtigons]

So which characters are best suited for a rush down style of play?

 

[Shaya]

I still find it laughable when people try to equate Bayonetta's reign with that of Meta Knight in Brawl. Real talk: she was overtuned but not broken

Edit: Agreed on the tops being more diet-top in this game

Real talk: Not really, nah.


Witch Time in it's original potency and her forward air are some of the most broken things to have ever existed in smash bros. You could maybe blame rage a bit as well.
I'd be more keen to devil's advocate claim Meta Knight was overtuned (interestingly, his down-b and forward tilt are also some of the most broken things to have ever existed in smash bros; although of course we banned the former outright instantly upon discovery).
If you took away the insane "can kill at 0%" base knockback on aerial shuttle loop and down smash, and made his ftilt have s4/ult frame data, then Ice Climbers likely would've been killing the game instead much like Bayonetta was - slowly but with no will from anyone to try to overcome it.

What held her back was being a difficult and very "different" character. The skill floor was high enough to deter out-of-no-where instant pick ups with success like Meta Knight had (of course in the medium-long term, the only new break-out MK in Brawl to exist after the first 2 years of the game were Nairo/ZeRo only), or in a way you could say Wolf has in this game thus far (but a dubious a statement with the game being only 3 months old).

The dominant late-brawl meta knight mains almost all transitioned into similar results in S4 with new characters (ZeRo, Nairo, Anti, FOW, etc).

Tanim and Zack still capable of doing well at competitive events. Salem is a 3-game veteran. It's still pretty early to make such sweeping statements about those s4 top level players careers in Ultimate, but most of the other S4 top players have continued to do similarly well in Ult, while it's easier to observe on average the Bayo players are doing worse.
There are a lot of circumstances and mitigating reasons perceivable for this though.

 

[NotLiquid]

You can actually see a good example in Brawl of what it meant to be an overtuned character vs a broken one.

Meta Knight was overtuned. Ice Climbers was broken.

Smash 4 Bayonetta was... probably closer to Ice Climbers but I'd say more comparable to Melee Jigglypuff, who has taken her sweet time in finally becoming considered the most anti-fun character of Melee. I think Bayonetta had the capacity to be broken, but it was never fully realized outside of a very specific subset of top players, and it took good while until players that weren't Salem or Zack started being consistent with the character.

In regards to Bayo players transitioning into Ultimate, I feel like they've handicapped themselves if only out of a bit of misplaced foolish pride. Tamim has basically admitted that he's at wit's end with Bayonetta, and it's hard to disagree that he's being held back right now. Salem saw the bad news immediately and I'd say he transitioned into Ultimate fairly well, in spite of trying to stick to Link as an evident novelty pick, he's doing gangbusters as Snake right now. Zack is also doing pretty good but I feel like he's sort of doing himself a disservice trying to juggle both Bayonetta and Peach in brackets considering the latter is an excruciatingly technical character to main. I guess Zack's gonna Zack, and he's always been the most inconsistent of the Bayos. Lima is doing... well, he's somewhere out there. And I've seen really little of Pink Fresh and Saj. Geist's been doing pretty good at locals I suppose.

I honestly can't blame Bayo players though, in Smash 4 being a Bayo player was the quickest way to get a one-way ticket to harassment town, leading to the logical conclusion of EVO 2018. Most of these guys probably feel like they have something to prove, show that they can actually carry the character into some success. They've done a decent job, but I dunno if I'd wanna be the kind of person to rake myself over the coals in that fashion. To some extent, every player is carried by their character if they settle on a top tier - you could argue Tweek's entire Smash career is predicated on this notion - it just felt like more of a bad thing with Bayo because of how she served to piss off an entire community.

 

[NeonNote]

What do you guys think of Rosalina in this game? I personally think she’s underrated. Many people list her as basically useless, but I’m pretty sure that’s because literally no one plays her.

 

[|RK|]

Well that depends, Diddy doesn’t usually rush in like most other characters that Lucina is very effective against. He requires way more patience, and due to her straight forwardness, it’s easy to win neutral, and get grabs in. Doing lots of damage. F Smash is easily countered on stage, but yeah off stage you are totally right. Her kill power is indeed better, but that’s as much of an advantage as Diddy having the mobility to outspeed her range, and follow up realitively easy with Banana Throw. She’s very in your face all the time, and that’s not easily challenged in Ultimate’s rush down meta, but Diddy has easy ways around it, because she hasn’t no good answer against Banana, and he can make her ‘flow’ of movement stop easily with it. So winning neutral is actually quite easy. It’s much the same with Ike I feel, but his increased range, weight and overall power make it a little harder overall.

Even pulling banana is more of a commitment than in S4. Diddy has ground mobility, but not air mobility. He has no consistent way to kill or beat out Lucina's aerials. Also, what damage is he getting from grab in comparison to the rest of the cast?

 

[Rizen]

was by far the most broken thing ever featured in smash; he was more broken than Ice climbers who could 0-death you off one grab- and that's saying something.

So which characters are best suited for a rush down style of play?

comes to mind first. No one rushes down like Fox.

 

[ARISTOS]

That reminds me; does it seem like there are a lot of prominent characters that have a hard time killing? It just seems that a lot of characters have inconsistent or only a handful of kill options.

Kill confirms are much less a thing-the ones that are left in Ult are generally way riskier than the grab>death stuff found in 4.

Nah the best characters rn are those who can fish for those kills safely

 

[Shaya]

Following on, this is a walking on eggshells kinda statement, but Tweek seems to be one of the more inconsistent top-level players.
It's a coin flip for whether on any given day he's the best in the world by a large margin or is fighting down to the wire matches one at a time until he gets clutched out. MKLeo's consistency, despite their head-to-head, definitely would place him ahead in any ranking (IMO), but using an objective measurement may likely make it so Tweek struggles to be placed as #2 either.

We're observing this inconsistency in Ultimate, and I feel (as in, hindsight/don't have the data in front of me so potential ignorance) like we could say the same for him in Smash4 too - that was, until he made Bayonetta his main character.
The "gets top 3/wins the tournament in a dominant fashion or gets top 12" Tweek turned into "wins the tournament in an extremely dominant fashion or gets top 3" with Bayonetta.

shrug.

Basically all the best MK mains in Brawl consistently got their expected top 8s, to be fair - except when they weren't Tyrant or M2K and had to play Larry/DEHF in bracket. And of course Ice Climbers were forever inconsistent in Brawl (never having any major showing of note), while Hungrybox with Jiggs seems to generally be consistent as well.

I feel it's dangerous to start or endorse a s4 bayonetta discussion.
But I would say this, if Bayonetta had the opportunities MK had in Brawl to both:
1. Plank
2. Edgeguard people to death with ledge hogs

We'd likely have seen Bayonetta doing so just as well in those departments as Brawl MK.
Bayonetta was already dangerous/the best in the game in those two areas in S4, in a game where those two things were meant to be "nerfed"/not possible anymore.
(But whenever making these types of comparisons I always think "Bayonnetta wouldn't have had a chance against Diddy, right?")

It's important to reflect on what and how the game itself made characters the way they were (hence my nod to rage's affects on S4 too).

 

[Blue Banana]

I know that discussion on this has kind of passed, but I want to say that even though I agree that Olimar gets a lot of reward from his OoS game, it's definitely not the fastest. Usmash comes out on frame 12, so it's hard to use it as a OoS punish on moves with little end lag such as probably most of Peach's and Wolf's aerials. All of his other OoS options aren't really fast either; both Fair and Nair tie for the fastest at frame 10. The range on Usmash is mostly vertical, making it lacking at times. If you're looking to nab a KO from Usmash, the opponent needs to be positioned very close to Olimar in order for the sweetspot to connect.

I'm not saying that this doesn't make Olimar's OoS game not powerful, but it does have flaws.

 

[N8than]

Kill confirms are much less a thing-the ones that are left in Ult are generally way riskier than the grab>death stuff found in 4.

Nah the best characters rn are those who can fish for those kills safely

I was talking about kill options in neutral; not kill confirms.

 

[fozzy fosbourne]

Updated stroder greninja matchup chart

There was a problem fetching the tweet

 

[Deleted member]

Has anyone written up a matchup chart for Pac-Man? In the Pac discord there's been talks of making one, but now I'm curious if there's been any before.

 

[blackghost]

My thoughts: None of the current top tiers are as good as Smash 4 Sheik or Diddy Kong were at the end of Smash 4, much less Bayonetta or Cloud. The top tiers in this game seem to be much less impressive than the Smash 4 top tiers.

i'd hold off on statements like that. wolf, pichu, and pika still have plenty of room to optimize. especially pichu. shiek in 2015 was nothing compared to what her top mains could do in 2017. characters with potential will continue to develop. shiek, bayo, and a few others are dead in the water at this point.

 

[fozzy fosbourne]

Muteace peach matchup chart and tier list

Good stream! thanks for the host @BestNess_ <3.
This is my MU chart and tier list. Tier list is all ordered but most are interchangeable by a spot or two.https://t.co/fM2JaJjp26 :o pic.twitter.com/CdydJ5nTuP

— MuteAce 竜 (@MuteAce) March 14, 2019

 

[blackghost]

You can actually see a good example in Brawl of what it meant to be an overtuned character vs a broken one.

I honestly can't blame Bayo players though, in Smash 4 being a Bayo player was the quickest way to get a one-way ticket to harassment town, leading to the logical conclusion of EVO 2018. Most of these guys probably feel like they have something to prove, show that they can actually carry the character into some success. They've done a decent job, but I dunno if I'd wanna be the kind of person to rake myself over the coals in that fashion. To some extent, every player is carried by their character if they settle on a top tier - you could argue Tweek's entire Smash career is predicated on this notion - it just felt like more of a bad thing with Bayo because of how she served to piss off an entire community.

the other thing is most of the elite bayo players are heavily attached to the character. i believe either zack or lima have beaten both games at pure platinum runs. its hard to drop a character you love that much. for others see players like fatality, ESAM, or larry lurr. Not every top player loves their character beyond just winning in a game. i tihkn you'll see a surprise bayo pick from zack in a top 8 if he faces a ROB but until 3.0 that's about it. she's dead as was intended.

 

[Rizen]

Muteace peach matchup chart and tier list

Good stream! thanks for the host @BestNess_ <3.
This is my MU chart and tier list. Tier list is all ordered but most are interchangeable by a spot or two.https://t.co/fM2JaJjp26 :o pic.twitter.com/CdydJ5nTuP

— MuteAce 竜 (@MuteAce) March 14, 2019

Samsora also rates YL as a slight disadvantage for Peach. If the brackets fill up with Peach, PT and Yoshi then YL might become a counterpick character after all.
I usually don't comment on tier lists but it's nice to see someone not overrate Link. I agree Snake>YL>Link. Snake's really good.

 

[fozzy fosbourne]

Samsora also rates YL as a slight disadvantage for Peach. If the brackets fill up with Peach, PT and Yoshi then YL might become a counterpick character after all.
I usually don't comment on tier lists but it's nice to see someone not overrate Link. I agree Snake>YL>Link. Snake's really good.

Snake and young link matchup pretty well with the rats, too, right?

 

[|RK|]

Muteace peach matchup chart and tier list

Good stream! thanks for the host @BestNess_ <3.
This is my MU chart and tier list. Tier list is all ordered but most are interchangeable by a spot or two.https://t.co/fM2JaJjp26 :o pic.twitter.com/CdydJ5nTuP

— MuteAce 竜 (@MuteAce) March 14, 2019

Glad that there's consensus on Kirby/Peach this early.

 

[KirbySquad101]

Oh hey, finally, a list that doesn't put in bottom tier; hallelujah!

Jokes aside, this is definitely an interesting tier list that deviates quite a bit from ones we're used to seeing. The most standout things to me are not even breaking top 10, sitting at bottom tier, and sitting at high tier.


I do think is probably best suited at the lower end of high tier for now; he seemed to have a really big blowout for a small period of time, but I haven't been hearing anything about him afterwards, especially since Salem had seemingly dropped him in favor of . Could be that I'm not looking hard enough lol

Also, I don't really know the character a whole lot, but is really as terrible as most players are making him out to be? I keep seeing him consistently being placed in bottom 5 or 10, and I'm not sure as to why that is. I feel like this is another case of people overrating his nerfs and underrating his buffs, but can't confirm since I don't really play the character.

Glad that there's consensus on Kirby/Peach this early.

What does Samsora think of the matchup? I think he posted a matchup chart for Peach a while back, but I can't remember XP

CaptainZack thinks the match-up is slightly in Peach/Daisy's favor (+0.5).

 

[|RK|]

What does Samsora think of the matchup? I think he posted a matchup chart for Peach a while back, but I can't remember XP

CaptainZack thinks the match-up is slightly in Peach/Daisy's favor (+0.5).

Samsora also has even iirc

 

[MrGameguycolor]

Also, I don't really know the character a whole lot, but is really as terrible as most players are making him out to be? I keep seeing him consistently being placed in bottom 5 or 10, and I'm not sure as to why that is. I feel like this is another case of people overrating his nerfs and underrating his buffs, but can't confirm since I don't really play the character.

Honestly, I feel this character is being slept on.

He's got fairly good mobility, some undoubtedly threatening aerials, decent ground game, a hurtbox gimmick that helps his already high weight stat, a strong punish game with Mechakoopa, great smash attacks, etc...

My guess is that people decide "Well someone's gotta be bottom tier", so they just uses Up-B as their baseline since it's convenient enough.

 

[Planty]

What do you guys think of Rosalina in this game? I personally think she’s underrated. Many people list her as basically useless, but I’m pretty sure that’s because literally no one plays her.

is not bad for sure. It's just that she belongs somewhere around the middle of a massive mid tier, so it's understandable that people aren't too interested in analyzing the minutiae of her mediocrity.

She has a solid advantage state between her excellent juggling and edgeguarding (is there anybody better than Rosa at juggling?), so there's some reward in winning neutral. Her neutral game is fairly decent, with the best boost grab in the game, star bits to disrupt the opponent, and good pokes with bair. Tech like lunar jumps open up a lot of traps and setups as well for her. She struggles with projectiles a bit because they'll hit Luma even if you shield them. Rosa is held back, more than anything, by how squishy Luma is.

He dies to everything in this game, and when he's dead, you get put in disadvantage very quickly (SoRo is the 4th worst character in the game, right after SoPo, Nolimar, and Luma himself). Being in disadvantage is extra bad as Rosa, because Luma will often die right as he spawns next to you.

Still though, she's definitely underrated. She can be played effectively with multiple playstyles, which is huge, and her matchup spread is pretty solid. I'd say she beats or goes even with most of the cast, but loses to most of top tier. However, other than Olimar, I think that all her losing matchups are very doable. A lot of Rosa mains say she beats Inkling and Snake, so that's something.

If Luma was given some sort of meaningful survivability buff (More HP, knockback resistance, the ability to recall him after her gets launched offstage at higher HP, etc.), I firmly believe that Rosalina would become a very threatening character, and borderline high tier.

Another issue with the character in my opinion is that she's stupid hard from a technical point of view (Peach hasn't got anything on Ultimate Rosa) so it makes her very difficult to learn, and so results and top level gameplay are lacking. When a lot of the better characters are easy to pick up and do well with (Wolf, Lucina, Ike), there's not much of a reason to pick up Rosalina.