Official Competitive Character Impressions 2.0

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Diddy Kong

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Even pulling banana is more of a commitment than in S4. Diddy has ground mobility, but not air mobility. He has no consistent way to kill or beat out Lucina's aerials. Also, what damage is he getting from grab in comparison to the rest of the cast?
In early %s, quite a lot, pummel is real fast and proves quite usefull at later %s leading to KO %s. Early damage %s, a D Throw leads to double B Air, and can be potentially followed up by grounded Monkey Flip Kick or a dash attack to send her upwards yet again. Or a grab, D Throw, N Air, to B Air / F Air also works with %s. Lucina's aerial mobility is bothersome at times yes, but Diddy is faster on the ground than she in the air. So it's managable.

Maybe it's just my matchup experience though. But I'm having a wayyyy easier time with Lucina than most other Top Tiers. Maybe it's because she's pocketed a lot, maybe it's because a lot of the matchup is similar to playing the matchup in Smash 4.

I mean, a good Wolf I can also still beat, but some give me trouble. Same with the likes of Fox, Palutena, and Pichu. If I share their GSP or overall experience, it basically comes down to matchup experience I think, but I more often win than lose (60-40 or so). But with Ike, Peach and Lucina, I beat them consistantly. With Inkling, I lose consistantly.

I also see way more Diddy players online than before, so I do predict the return of Hoo-Hah Nation in the near future. :ultdiddy:

So which characters are best suited for a rush down style of play?
:ultfox: for sure. He's basically build around the archetype the most. Up next, I would say , :ultmario:, :ultroy: & :ultchrom: :ultpichu:, :ultfalcon: and :ultsquirtle:. There's some others, but they rely more on patience, punishing, and timing their moves, as :ultinkling:, :ultyoshi:, :ultlucina:, :ultmetaknight:, :ultdiddy:, :ultsheik:, :ultpikachu: and :ultlittlemac: .
 
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MG_3989

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Muteace peach matchup chart and tier list
Interesting tier list. People seem to be high on Lucas lately and Villager and Falco in high tier also deviates from the norm
IMO YL vs Pikachu is about even. Pika's hard to hit but he also has a hard time forcing anything on YL. Theoretically Pichu is even as well but I haven't played that.
Pikachu and Pichu seem tough to me as YL. Their low profile and ability to get in seems to take away some YL’s zoning tools and it also seems like they can edgeguard YL effectively. I’m not that good nor extremely knowledgeable with, he’s just a pocket/secondary for me but it seems like Pikachu and Pichu have a slight advantage to me
 

Tizio Random

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Is Gravitational Pull's frame data so bad as to make it unusable as an anti-projectile option?
No but you have to be very careful using it. Against some mus it's not that useful (e.g: Young Link, Belmonts) but in others it's really important (PK Kids, Snake). The point is that you shouldn't generally abuse it against characters that can frame trap you with more projectiles but it's still very useful against characters that have tools to zone you, that move alone literally destroys K. Rool and other characters like Bowser Jr. and R.O.B. still have problems with it, for example.

That said, Planty already said the majority of the important things even if I don't understand why he cited Olimar as her worst mu. Imho that title goes to Chroy which I feel is her only 60:40 mu as of now, the other mus can feel like an uphill battle but are all very doable for now.

As a closing note, I'm waiting for the day when her techs, especially Lunar Dash will be optimized because it's a really important and game-changing tech. Dabuz played Smash 4 Rosa against Samsora which was actually amusing to watch but that's a VERY big handicap, as I describe it, it was like a "blindfolded nuzlocke".

The more I play her, the more I notice how you have to never not do anything with her, you have to always perform an action, being pushing towards center stage (crucial factor for Luma survivability), position Luma or anything. Being a Sheik main in Melee I felt that playing Ultimate Rosa like her was great: abusing her mobility (she has a great dash dance, great aerial drift and actually usable wavedash because you can put a hitbox out at the same time), her long lasting and reaching hitboxes and edgeguarding a ton.
 
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MG_3989

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Gravitational pull doesn’t work nearly as well against Ness (idk about Lucas) as it did in 4 because Ness doesn’t rely on PKT to recover anymore. I don’t know how good Rosalina is because I haven’t played one good Rosalina and it’s rare to see pros player. Regardless Gravitational Pull is still an incredible move imo
 
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Interesting tier list. People seem to be high on Lucas lately and Villager and Falco in high tier also deviates from the norm
I haven't watched the stream, but that tier seems more like high-mid tier than high tier to me. Did he mention in the stream that it's high tier? Assuming it's ordered within tiers, he actually placed Ness slightly lower than I do, interesting.

The Snake placement seems rather low to me, the Young Link a bit high. Overall it seems like one of the better tier lists out there though. Villager and the Pits in high-mid is interesting as well.

Regarding his Peach/Daisy MU chart: Unlike Samsora's, Peach actually looks like a top tier character there. Oh, and apparently both MuteAce and Myran think Olimar is the best character in the game, interesting... I could see it, although I'm personally leaning towards Peach/Daisy being the best.
 
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Muteace peach matchup chart and tier list
Villager's placement in high tier is, for me, an indication of how inescapable it is for players to see the game through the lens of their mains.

Peach may be the only relevant matchup that villager does well against in Ultimate. Lloid and slingshots cover very well the aerial space between grounded- and short-hop-height that peach dominates so well and, although peach's movement can be tricky, she is not fast enough to consistently get into villy's face and overpower her with buttons.

However, one of the biggest reasons that villager fell off in Smash 4 was cloud. Smash 4 cloud had the mobility to prevent villager from setting up her zoning game and his big hitboxes could both clank with her projectiles and outrange n-air, her one good cqc option. Villager's edge guarding was good, but good luck getting a character that you can't beat in neutral off the level. Winning a game in Smash 4 basically required villager to get that miracle edge guard twice.

Also, villager's zoning game required the character to constantly press buttons: lloid has a lot of (vulnerable) startup and ground-level slingshots had to be done out of a short hop. Both options would lose to shield, against which villager could rarely grab because her grab came out on frame 15 with a faf 56 (giving me enough time to giggle at my own foolishness thinking I could try to grab someone without getting punished). Jab was villy's answer to shield and it was pretry meh at that.

In Ultimate, villager can still edgeguard well, but so can a lot of other characters. Her jab now has a finisher, making it less safe against shields, and her grab is now just pretty bad instead of comically horrendous.

The cloud matchup is still bad, though. He still has all the attributes that made it rough in Smash 4, despite now being a bit easier to edgeguard because of limit's new limitations. Good luck doing that THREE times in a match now, however.

Worst of all, a bunch of the swordspeople that cloud overshadowed in Smash 4 are now even better than him! Their mobility and safety has improved across the board, making it much easier for them to power through villy's zoning, get in her face, and pressure her until they take the stock. Villy has to press buttons to setup her zoning game, and now a bunch of characters can easily punish her for doing so. Nair is good at breaking out of pressure, but it loses to swords, and her mobility is too goddamn bad to allow her to get away.

Also, it may even be that her edgeguarding was made worse BECAUSE of the change to air dodges. In Smash 4, characters with an exclusively vertical recovery like cloud could be forced to air dodge at certain angles with lloid or dash attack to then find themselves right under a bowling ball. In Ultimate, they can directional air dodge to the ledge, which is punishable with a bowling ball, but requires a read. It's one extra mixup that villy has to guess right to seal these characters' stocks once she finally gets them off stage.

Tldr: Muteace probably placed villager relatively high because she does decently against peach. Villy still struggles hard against sword characters with decent mobility.

Edit: one other thing about Muteace's tier list: how the hell are Lucina and Marth separated by 26 characters? That's a third of the roster!
 
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MG_3989

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I haven't watched the stream, but that tier seems more like high-mid tier than high tier to me. Did he mention in the stream that it's high tier? Assuming it's ordered within tiers, he actually placed Ness slightly lower than I do, interesting.

The Snake placement seems rather low to me, the Young Link a bit high. Overall it seems like one of the better tier lists out there though. Villager and the Pits in high-mid is interesting as well.

Regarding his Peach/Daisy MU chart: Unlike Samsora's, Peach actually looks like a top tier character there. Oh, and apparently both MuteAce and Myran think Olimar is the best character in the game, interesting... I could see it, although I'm personally leaning towards Peach/Daisy being the best.
I didn’t watch it either but I usually assume A tier is high tier. It could be high mid, I really don’t know, but I just think it’s interesting how high he placed Flaco and Villager especially
 

SwagGuy99

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Falco in high tier also deviates from the norm
:ultfalco: in high tier doesn't seem to be the most popular opinion, but it's one that should be being considered in my opinion. He seems to sever as kind of a combination of :ultfox: and :ultwolf: but not being as strong as they are in most areas. His blaster is good but not as good as Wolf's. He can try to play like a rushdown character, but he lack's Fox's ground speed. His jump height is high, but his up-b isn't as good as Fox's. His kill power is good, but Fox can kill more consistently. He lacks the range that Wolf has. However, Falco's combo game is really strong, and that is one area where he really stands out in comparison to the other 2. So while there isn't much reason to play :ultfalco: rather than :ultfox: or :ultwolf:, it doesn't mean that he's bad necessarily.
 

Rizen

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Villager's placement in high tier is, for me, an indication of how inescapable it is for players to see the game through the lens of their mains.
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That's something players have to watch out for. In my case, :ultyounglink: has a really good MU vs DDD and I rated him low. But it sounds like some characters can't deal with gordos very well and he's getting results. Maybe DDD's better than I thought.
 
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That's something players have to watch out for. In my case, :ultyounglink: has a really good MU vs DDD and I rated him low. But it sounds like some characters can't deal with gordos very well and he's getting results. Maybe DDD's better than I thought.
Everyone needs to be careful about that, but I do think it is truly inescapable because we always play the game with a particular character's tool set. It's why every time a top player posts a tier list someone says "top players are so ignorant; they don't know these particular things about characters x, y, and z." Anyone's tier list will be wrong about a bunch of stuff with a 75 character roster.
 

Augi

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:ultrosalina: is not bad for sure. It's just that she belongs somewhere around the middle of a massive mid tier, so it's understandable that people aren't too interested in analyzing the minutiae of her mediocrity.

She has a solid advantage state between her excellent juggling and edgeguarding (is there anybody better than Rosa at juggling?), so there's some reward in winning neutral. Her neutral game is fairly decent, with the best boost grab in the game, star bits to disrupt the opponent, and good pokes with bair. Tech like lunar jumps open up a lot of traps and setups as well for her. She struggles with projectiles a bit because they'll hit Luma even if you shield them. Rosa is held back, more than anything, by how squishy Luma is.

He dies to everything in this game, and when he's dead, you get put in disadvantage very quickly (SoRo is the 4th worst character in the game, right after SoPo, Nolimar, and Luma himself). Being in disadvantage is extra bad as Rosa, because Luma will often die right as he spawns next to you.

Still though, she's definitely underrated. She can be played effectively with multiple playstyles, which is huge, and her matchup spread is pretty solid. I'd say she beats or goes even with most of the cast, but loses to most of top tier. However, other than Olimar, I think that all her losing matchups are very doable. A lot of Rosa mains say she beats Inkling and Snake, so that's something.

If Luma was given some sort of meaningful survivability buff (More HP, knockback resistance, the ability to recall him after her gets launched offstage at higher HP, etc.), I firmly believe that Rosalina would become a very threatening character, and borderline high tier.

Another issue with the character in my opinion is that she's stupid hard from a technical point of view (Peach hasn't got anything on Ultimate Rosa) so it makes her very difficult to learn, and so results and top level gameplay are lacking. When a lot of the better characters are easy to pick up and do well with (Wolf, Lucina, Ike), there's not much of a reason to pick up Rosalina.
It's encouraging to hear such analysis about a character that most care little for. Mostly the conversation just revolves around the Top picks in this thread...

I agree that Luma needs a buff. He dies way too easily. I'm sure Nintendo is being very cautious about it since OG RosaLuma in Smash 4 was stupid good. But I feel like the heavy nerf-hammer Luma received isn't as needed with the new "partner-panics" grab mechanics.

It's just very difficult for Rosa to function without Luma and there's not nearly enough advantages given to her to compensate for when he's not there. Greater survivability is needed. If not that, then a way to save him after he falls off the edge, or even if Luma is dead turn Neutral B into a "Hold button to Summon a Luma" skill; letting you spawn one faster.

I don't think any of those are unreasonable, but I'm sure many are still licking their scars from Smash 4.

Aside from the Luma weakness though, you still have to deal with her Amazonian hurtbox and floaty nature. Not insurmountable, but still a notable hinderance. She's fun to play as though. I've been fooling around with her lately trying to figure her out and its been a good time. Proper spacing with her and clever use of Luma when away from you is where her power lies.
 

NeonNote

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:ultrosalina: is not bad for sure. It's just that she belongs somewhere around the middle of a massive mid tier, so it's understandable that people aren't too interested in analyzing the minutiae of her mediocrity.

She has a solid advantage state between her excellent juggling and edgeguarding (is there anybody better than Rosa at juggling?), so there's some reward in winning neutral. Her neutral game is fairly decent, with the best boost grab in the game, star bits to disrupt the opponent, and good pokes with bair. Tech like lunar jumps open up a lot of traps and setups as well for her. She struggles with projectiles a bit because they'll hit Luma even if you shield them. Rosa is held back, more than anything, by how squishy Luma is.

He dies to everything in this game, and when he's dead, you get put in disadvantage very quickly (SoRo is the 4th worst character in the game, right after SoPo, Nolimar, and Luma himself). Being in disadvantage is extra bad as Rosa, because Luma will often die right as he spawns next to you.

Still though, she's definitely underrated. She can be played effectively with multiple playstyles, which is huge, and her matchup spread is pretty solid. I'd say she beats or goes even with most of the cast, but loses to most of top tier. However, other than Olimar, I think that all her losing matchups are very doable. A lot of Rosa mains say she beats Inkling and Snake, so that's something.

If Luma was given some sort of meaningful survivability buff (More HP, knockback resistance, the ability to recall him after her gets launched offstage at higher HP, etc.), I firmly believe that Rosalina would become a very threatening character, and borderline high tier.

Another issue with the character in my opinion is that she's stupid hard from a technical point of view (Peach hasn't got anything on Ultimate Rosa) so it makes her very difficult to learn, and so results and top level gameplay are lacking. When a lot of the better characters are easy to pick up and do well with (Wolf, Lucina, Ike), there's not much of a reason to pick up Rosalina.
I'm so mad they made it seem like shield consistently covered Luma in the trailers. I really thought they were going to make him harder to kill, but less oppressive with shorter movements forward etc.
 
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That's something players have to watch out for. In my case, :ultyounglink: has a really good MU vs DDD and I rated him low. But it sounds like some characters can't deal with gordos very well and he's getting results. Maybe DDD's better than I thought.
The thing about gordos is that they're not really that scary in neutral for most characters, they're more about pressing DDD's advantage stage (such as with ledgetrapping). Is Young Link good at dealing with gordo ledgetraps? He probably still wins the MU since he should dominate neutral vs Dedede, although I do wonder if it's really that bad for Dedede as you seem to think it is.

Dedede is probably somewhere in the #25-40 range?
 
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I love this game, the high tier is big, top tiers are relatively fair, and even the bad characters have killed me with spicy memes

Pray to the Nintendo gods that the DLC is more balanced this time around

Every time I get rekt by some sick Zelda setup or whatever it's a hoot
 
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Rizen

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The thing about gordos is that they're not really that scary in neutral for most characters, they're more about pressing DDD's advantage stage (such as with ledgetrapping). Is Young Link good at dealing with gordo ledgetraps? He probably still wins the MU since he should dominate neutral vs Dedede, although I do wonder if it's really that bad for Dedede as you seem to think it is.

Dedede is probably somewhere in the #25-40 range?
YL can bounce back gordos with any of his projectiles so he can toss out boomerang when recovering. YL also has a tether to mix up recoveries. It's hard for DDD to get into ledge trap positions even if YL's recovering.

Link in general has good tools vs DDD; back in SSB4 DDD was Link's best MU (brawl was a different story). YL's even more of an extreme. DDD really can't do much besides slowly creep forward with shields. Gordos get bounced back so easily they're more of a liability for DDD. DDD's frame data is terrible and his best burst option is Dtilt, which doesn't have good reward. YL combos off half his moveset. Then in disadvantage DDD's got the worst airspeed in the game. YL destroys big characters in general but most of them have some kind of trump card. DDD can spit out a single projectile but it's easy enough to stand still and let the kokiri shield block it. DDD's liable to get hit by a second projectile when he sucks up the first. It's easily YL's best MU.
 

Planty

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It's encouraging to hear such analysis about a character that most care little for. Mostly the conversation just revolves around the Top picks in this thread...

I agree that Luma needs a buff. He dies way too easily. I'm sure Nintendo is being very cautious about it since OG RosaLuma in Smash 4 was stupid good. But I feel like the heavy nerf-hammer Luma received isn't as needed with the new "partner-panics" grab mechanics.

It's just very difficult for Rosa to function without Luma and there's not nearly enough advantages given to her to compensate for when he's not there. Greater survivability is needed. If not that, then a way to save him after he falls off the edge, or even if Luma is dead turn Neutral B into a "Hold button to Summon a Luma" skill; letting you spawn one faster.

I don't think any of those are unreasonable, but I'm sure many are still licking their scars from Smash 4.

Aside from the Luma weakness though, you still have to deal with her Amazonian hurtbox and floaty nature. Not insurmountable, but still a notable hinderance. She's fun to play as though. I've been fooling around with her lately trying to figure her out and its been a good time. Proper spacing with her and clever use of Luma when away from you is where her power lies.
The "partner panic" is not really a mechanic unique to Ultimate. It existed in Smash 4, but was just less well known for whatever reason. As far as I'm aware, Luma's mechanics when Rosa is grabbed are the same as in Smash 4
 

fozzy fosbourne

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I love this game, the high tier is big, top tiers are relatively fair, and even the bad characters have killed me with spicy memes

Pray to the Nintendo gods that the DLC is more balanced this time around

Every time I get rekt by some sick Zelda setup or whatever it's a hoot
Yeah, I strongly agree with this. The metagame seems pretty healthy and still rapidly evolving. I'm more worried about change than demanding it at the moment!
 

Tizio Random

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I agree that Luma needs a buff. He dies way too easily. I'm sure Nintendo is being very cautious about it since OG RosaLuma in Smash 4 was stupid good. But I feel like the heavy nerf-hammer Luma received isn't as needed with the new "partner-panics" grab mechanics.
Luma acts the same way as Smash 4 when Rosa is in hitstun, grabbed, helpless or whatever. So it can still interrupt stuff as always, the only reason it seems to happen less it's because his hitboxes are not gigantic and have absurd frame data anymore.

About balance changes: I agree not much is needed right now but I hope some characters like :ultlucina::ultwolf::ultpichu::ultolimar::ultike::ultpalutena::ultpeach: are touched up a bit to make them either more interesting or less braindead with some spammable options. Not much, though. For mid and low tiers you all know, there's a lot of stuff that can be done and I hope the dev team catches up to it.
 
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Foie

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:ultfalco: in high tier doesn't seem to be the most popular opinion, but it's one that should be being considered in my opinion. He seems to sever as kind of a combination of :ultfox: and :ultwolf: but not being as strong as they are in most areas. His blaster is good but not as good as Wolf's. He can try to play like a rushdown character, but he lack's Fox's ground speed. His jump height is high, but his up-b isn't as good as Fox's. His kill power is good, but Fox can kill more consistently. He lacks the range that Wolf has. However, Falco's combo game is really strong, and that is one area where he really stands out in comparison to the other 2. So while there isn't much reason to play :ultfalco: rather than :ultfox: or :ultwolf:, it doesn't mean that he's bad necessarily.
Falco is a character that is great at comboing opponents to 50 or 60 damage, then can't do a whole lot and really struggles to secure kills. His blaster is massively outclassed by wolf's, and most other projectiles in the game for that matter. It says a lot when :ultyounglink: arrows are a better Falco laser than falco's lasers. His horizontal speed is really bad, which means he's more limited to playing a defensive punish game than rushing in offensively. His one burst option, side b, got a big nerf by not passing through shields.

All that said, he's not terrible, but looking at the characters above him it'd be surprising if he falls anywhere higher than mid tier. There's little reason to play him when :ultfox::ultwolf::ultgreninja::ultwario::ultyounglink: and others are simply better.

If he had quicker air speed, he could definitely be top or high tier though. His air speed and run speed are ranked 59th and 50th respectively. Wolf by comparison has low run speed but top 10 air speed.
 
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Rocketjay8

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I've been thinking this for a while. No Top Tier in Ultimate is anywhere near as busted as some of the other Top Tiers in other games such as :metaknight::popo::4bayonetta: and in Smash Ultimate, they all seem to have at least one notable weakness that keeps them from being absolutely busted.

:ultcloud: has huge disjoints, long lasting attacks, high speed, and good kill potential, but struggles to recover against the majority of the cast.
:ultcloud: doesn't have the results right now to be a top tier character. Most of his mains/pocketers abandoned ship as soon as they found out that they have to put in more effort to play the character. I'm not at all surprised that character was dropped like a rock considering how broken he was in 4. I still think he's good though. People don't talk about him that much though which is pretty weird since :ultbayonetta: has been a fairly popular topic for the wrong reasons.
 
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:ultcloud: doesn't have the results right now to be a top tier character. Most of his mains/pocketers abandoned ship as soon as they found out that they have to put in more effort to play the character. I'm not at all surprised that character was dropped like a rock considering how broken he was in 4. I still think he's good though. People don't talk about him that much though which is pretty weird since :ultbayonetta: has been a fairly popular topic for the wrong reasons.
Id say Cloud is likely around the lower-end of high-tier. Still has a strong neutral, strong juggle options and kill-power.. Still has great mobility and a big ol' sword hitboxes sans his former n-air just got stolen by Ike this game.

But Cloud biggest weakness is his recovery is now a much bigger issue both due to Ultimate's changes and his direct nerfs

Cloud's recovery is like close or like bottom 5 worst recoveries imit due to being very linear and gimpable. The only reason why his recovery is stillconsidered better to characters like Chrom or the Belmonts is due to his Limit Climhazzard
However the thing he has now with the 15 second limit for his..limit. So now Cloud users to put thought into managing Limit use. I dunno. Is it a fairly common occurance for Cloud's limit to run out just as they are trying to recover? Honeslty I have not seen enough Cloud match footage.

As much as people like to now rag on ZeRo character and tier opinions. I do agree that Cloud would still likely be top tier if he still had unlimited limit time duration.
 
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Little bit of G&W info that I found recently.
 
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Little bit of G&W info that I found recently.
So the developers just reverted his Judge chance back to how it was in Brawl and Melee... sort of (1 and 2 are possible to get one the first or second use of Judge). Interesting decision, but it's not one that majorly affects him.
(I will miss landing two 9's in a row, though.)
 
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Sean²

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Do Pikachu and Pichu players generally see any noticeably bad matchups? I’ve seen nothing but polarizing opinions, and the only general agreement they seem to come up with is that they lose to Olimar.

Just seems every character I put time into has a -1 or -2 matchup with these two.

and no way in hell am I gonna be caught playing no Olimar, no siree
 

Cheryl~

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Do Pikachu and Pichu players generally see any noticeably bad matchups? I’ve seen nothing but polarizing opinions, and the only general agreement they seem to come up with is that they lose to Olimar.

Just seems every character I put time into has a -1 or -2 matchup with these two.

and no way in hell am I gonna be caught playing no Olimar, no siree
Outside of Olimar the main characters in consideration for actually beating the electric rats are usually the PK Kids, Ness in particular. Ness has disjointed aerials to contest with the Chus in the air and can wall them out with his projectiles and absorbing Thunder Jolts with his PSI Magnet, as well as threatening the Chu's low weight with Back-Throw. (This affects Pichu in particular.)

Lucas can do the same to them but doesn't really wall them out with PK Fire, he just creates space between them with his. Lucas also doesn't get edgeguarded nearly as easily as Ness which might give him an advantage over Ness in the Chu matchup although Ness does have better kill confirms. (imo Lucas definitely wins against Pichu but Pikachu is pretty even) But yeah I'd say those two are arguably the best against Pika/Pichu outside of Olimar, although it's up to you if you want to learn them to beat the rats.
 
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Do Pikachu and Pichu players generally see any noticeably bad matchups? I’ve seen nothing but polarizing opinions, and the only general agreement they seem to come up with is that they lose to Olimar.

Just seems every character I put time into has a -1 or -2 matchup with these two.

and no way in hell am I gonna be caught playing no Olimar, no siree
I would argue that Lucina and Chrom, aka the consistent blades, win the matchups, especially Lucina. Dealing with both of their disjoints, speed, power, and kill confirms can be really annoying for the Chus to deal with. In Lucina's case, I don't see anything the Chus can abuse in order to make it up.

Both characters have already proven success against the Chus. Leo's Lucina kinda molly-whopped VoiD's Pichu at Genesis 6 for two straight sets. Shoyo's Chrom eliminated both the best Pika player (ESAM) and Pichu player (VoiD) in Frostbite, both in convincing fashion.
 
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:ultcloud: doesn't have the results right now to be a top tier character. Most of his mains/pocketers abandoned ship as soon as they found out that they have to put in more effort to play the character. I'm not at all surprised that character was dropped like a rock considering how broken he was in 4. I still think he's good though. People don't talk about him that much though which is pretty weird since :ultbayonetta: has been a fairly popular topic for the wrong reasons.
I think Cloud is good. He doesn't have results because there are easier characters that do similar things.

An example of what I mean: Marth is a strong character but everyone is playing Lucina instead. That doesn't mean Marth isn't great, it just means there are better, similar choices. Marth won't hold you back at top levels.

This cast has over 70 characters so we'll just keep running into stuff like that, heh.
 
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I think Cloud is good. He doesn't have results because there are easier characters that do similar things.

An example of what I mean: Marth is a strong character but everyone is playing Lucina instead. That doesn't mean Marth isn't great, it just means there are better, similar choices. Marth won't hold you back at top levels.

This cast has over 70 characters so we'll just keep running into stuff like that, heh.
I feel like the Pits are kind of suffering the same thing. They are both well-rounded, solid characters... oh wait. Lucina is the same, but better and requires less brain cells to play. Similar to Marth, there is little reason to play the Pits over Lucina.

Lucina kind of overshadows a lot of characters, doesn't she? I guess it is revenge for being dubbed, "the inferior clone that has little reason to play as" throughout a lot of SSB4 history.
 

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I feel like the Pits are kind of suffering the same thing. They are both well-rounded, solid characters... oh wait. Lucina is the same, but better and requires less brain cells to play. Similar to Marth, there is little reason to play the Pits over Lucina.

Lucina kind of overshadows a lot of characters, doesn't she? I guess it is revenge for being dubbed, "the inferior clone that has little reason to play as" throughout a lot of SSB4 history.
The Pits do have some stuff over the Marth family line though, and that's their rather insane edgeguarding, and projectile. Their multiple jumps are great for edgeguarding and of course they can handle projectiles better due to the reflector specials. I do think there's quite some potential in the Pits this game, moreso than Brawl and Smash 4. Why isn't Earth using them instead of Fox?

Also, finally found a great Diddy player I have some confidence in and showcases what I always tell Diddy can do:

 
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Werekill

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I feel like the Pits are kind of suffering the same thing. They are both well-rounded, solid characters... oh wait. Lucina is the same, but better and requires less brain cells to play. Similar to Marth, there is little reason to play the Pits over Lucina.

Lucina kind of overshadows a lot of characters, doesn't she? I guess it is revenge for being dubbed, "the inferior clone that has little reason to play as" throughout a lot of SSB4 history.
I don't have much experience with Pit, so I have a question.

Does Pit's projectile just not bring enough to the table compared to Lucina?
 
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Maybe Earth has finally realized he could be a world level threat if he played a real character?
Pit would be so much better with just one good approach aerial. His kit as it is has no "glue." There are moves there that are okay in a vacuum, but his physics and other attacks don't come together to form something that's truly scary or even cohesive. A good pit player is just a good player.

Ever since the brawl days pits biggest problem has been conceptualizing a game plan for him. His arrows are good, but he's not a zoner and his anti airs and punishes aren't very good anyway. You could give him a swordie fair but then he's just like everyone else.
 
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:ultcloud: doesn't have the results right now to be a top tier character. Most of his mains/pocketers abandoned ship as soon as they found out that they have to put in more effort to play the character. I'm not at all surprised that character was dropped like a rock considering how broken he was in 4. I still think he's good though. People don't talk about him that much though which is pretty weird since :ultbayonetta: has been a fairly popular topic for the wrong reasons.
I dont think they jumped ship because cloud is harder to play, rather they jumped over to ike because he is similar enough for much better results.

Climhazzard w/o limit is probably the worst recovery in the game that can be called a recovery, his safest kill moves are all tied to limit, iirc cloud also has almost no combos other than a few dthrow follow ups and his juggle game is iffy at best due to his odd Uair hitboxes.

While ike has:

Cloud's smash 4 Nair, a horizontal recovery option, superarmor on aether, Nair combos, a juggle game that can kill with a crazy disjointed reach...

With clouds few upsides being a projectile (that is beaten by or clanks with almost everything), climhazzard OoS and quicker ground/air speed.
 
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First of all, what do you mean "real-character".
Pit and Dark Pit are bad. Yes, they have a functional kit that lets them play the game. Yes, they have pretty good neutral tools and a good recovery. The thing is though...they are average to a fault. Their normals are meh with punishable cooldown, their aerials are decent but not incredible/abusable, their projectiles are fine but have nothing meta-breaking (Pit arrows are good for offstage though), they still take quite a while to net stocks...you get the idea. Similar to Sheik you can play them correctly about 95% of the time, but then the 5% where you're not in control is where you lose. Why is this? It's simple-the Pits get outdone by a superior BS options (Fox vortex, Pichu lightning loops/overall solid kill options, etc) that far outshine the apex of what the Pits are capable of. To make a Pokemon analogy it's like trying to take on the meta with something like Porygon2: a good Pokemon with decent stats that sadly doesn't have what it takes anymore to withstand the power creep in the meta.
I applaud Earth if he's truly leaving Pit and look forward to seeing what he can do with a character with actual firepower.
 
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Do Pikachu and Pichu players generally see any noticeably bad matchups? I’ve seen nothing but polarizing opinions, and the only general agreement they seem to come up with is that they lose to Olimar.
Potentially Ness, potentially Snake, potentially Lucina (for Pichu, not sure if Pikachu's think it might be losing for them).

I would argue that Lucina and Chrom, aka the consistent blades, win the matchups, especially Lucina.
From what I've seen, many Chrom players seem to think they lose, because they get edgeguarded.
 

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They are not bad.

Just not threatening enough.

Where the kill confirm at?

Where the nonsense at?

Competitive smash is about the bull**** and not even letting your opponent play the game.

Pit literally has to outplay you. No bull****.

Just play Wolf in that case. He does it better with waaaaaaaay less work AND a safe forward smash. (lol who thought that was ok?)
 
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