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I think it's split between characters who can easily hit his Gordo back at him, and those who have trouble doing so. If you have a tool that can hit his Gordo back easily, you cut out a big part of his gameplan. He can frustrate and poke and whittle on you all day till you make a mistake, which then the best Dedede players will capitalize hard on that. I think a lot of people still don't respect this character's abilities and get dunked because of it.
Though, I will never go BF against this guy using some characters. He literally does not have to move out from underneath a platform if he doesn't want to, Gordo use or not. He is a fantastic camper, and he doesn't even really have to do anything stereotypical of campy playstyles. I've had games go to time versus good Dededes much more often than any other character, which feels crazy.
Well I guess what I am saying with Cloud is that you have to have commitment to play him. In that his playstyle now is committal. Most of his more opressive neutral and non-limit killing options have been toned down, making managing your limit more important. Cloud without limit actullay does have some weakness and flaws in neutral that can potentially be exploited now
Here is the thing once you know you are about get Limit, you will need a plan, and you have a (no pun intended) limit of 15 seconds to carry that plan out. To maybe to for an immedeiate Cross-Slash for the quick damage or potential kill, or use our increased power and mobility to continue to pressure and condition your opponent before unleashing a limit attack in advantage. Or maybe you feel you need to hold onto it for a recovery option Also keep in mind you have to countdown the 15 seconds in your head (or divert your attention to the match timer) since there is no on-screen timer or visual cue to tell you how much limit time is left. I am not sure if this happens often, but what if your counting on Limit Climhazzard to recover , only for limit to run out just as you press the buttons. That situation must SUCK
I'm biased against DDD because YL destroys him. He's getting results but I don't understand why. DDD can tank hits well but he otherwise seems slow, with terrible mobility and less clutch factor than other super heavyweights. Who does DDD beat?
I'm biased against DDD because YL destroys him. He's getting results but I don't understand why. DDD can tank hits well but he otherwise seems slow, with terrible mobility and less clutch factor than other super heavyweights. Who does DDD beat?
Who has trouble dealing with Gordo? CQC characters with no projectiles and/or big hurtboxes/small to no disjoint ability. Gordo is the crux of his ability to do well. I guess to put it frankly, probably a bunch of bad characters tbh
I'm biased against DDD because YL destroys him. He's getting results but I don't understand why. DDD can tank hits well but he otherwise seems slow, with terrible mobility and less clutch factor than other super heavyweights. Who does DDD beat?
From what I've gathered, DDD's worst MUs are strong projectile users and Pikachu/Pichu (probably Fox too?). He does fairly well against other superheavies (potentially beating them) and I've heard Dedede players, like Peli, say he wins vs Lucina, so that's notable (others say it's even, others think Lucina wins though). He's probably not a top 20 character but maybe top 30?
The idea that Bowser is slow is kind of outdated. He's got a fast dash and a good foxtrot, and his air speed's quite high.
The thing about him, though, is that he has a very hard time changing direction in the air. It's not as bad as the Belmonts, but it's not good. Once he jumps, he basically has to commit, so a Bowser player has to be confident enough to say "I will go THIS way and to hell with consequences." He mostly has to stay grounded, but he can still reach just about any character with ease.
From what I've gathered, DDD's worst MUs are strong projectile users and Pikachu/Pichu (probably Fox too?). He does fairly well against other superheavies (potentially beating them) and I've heard Dedede players, like Peli, say he wins vs Lucina, so that's notable (others say it's even, others think Lucina wins though). He's probably not a top 20 character but maybe top 30?
Surprised he mentions none of the Links. Link easily deals with Gordo and remote bomb ruins his suction camping. Can easily juggle and beat him in the air too.
I wonder if their methodology overweights regions where one player dominates the scene with an off meta character. For example Peli dominates with Dedede in his own region, but wasn't as successful at Frostbite. Wadi probably soups up ROBs stats since he bodies his region, but he's looking for a co-main after his super major results. Same with Yeti and Mega man and more examples I'm sure, although Kameme has seen some success in bigger events.
I'm kind of skeptical of characters that are high on OrionStats but haven't had impact in either US or JP majors. To be clear, they still might be good characters -- my point is not that being absent from a major makes a character bad, but rather that having a high rank in the OrionStats sheet but poor results in majors makes me curious on how much of those results might be from one region.
Edit: Zaki has gotten 5th in one Japan major, eliminated really early in another. I don't know.
Clones have never been literally 100% the same. There's always been some minute difference between them. Doesn't mean that they're not clones. In Smash, characters with similarities have always been divided into three categories:
1) Alts. These are the reskins that you can choose from in the same manner that you choose your character's color. These are things like the Koopalings, or Alph.
2) Clones. As of Ultimate, the official term is "echo fighters". They are very similar to each other, sharing the same moves and specs but usually have some sort of small difference between them, warranting a separate CSS slot. Examples are Marth and Lucina, Richter and Simon Belmont, Samus and Dark Samus, etc.
3) Semi-clones. Characters that share an obvious base similarity, but are less similar to each other than regular clones. This would be characters like Mario and Dr.Mario, or Marth and Roy.
There's a huge difference in the Echo status of characters in this game however.
are obviously different with their tipper or lack thereof, but share the same stats and frame data overall. I call this as a difference enough to not consider them pure clones. Their gameplay is totally different. literally the same as above, but they got a different Up B recovery, which makes them also way more different. are technically Echoes, but have different movement speeds, animations, and .. certain attacks? Am not too sure, but they are different enough at least.
Now compare that with or where there's zero differences in the gameplay. Might as well have been an alt like , the Koopalings and Bowser Jr., or .
Then there's Echoes who only have a slight few differences but play 95% the same as or .
I think simply saying "Echo" isn't enough to summarize the character, and what they can offer to the game. Some feel like complete different characters to me, others feel like glorified alts.
Just going over those results in general I think we're starting to see some rough gaps form and they're worth noting.
Wolf has a 26ish point lead over 2nd place (Fox). Fox to Pichu though is fairly close, about ~12 point span. From Pichu to Lucina there is another noticeable gap despite her being a fairly common secondary, with a ~25 point gap similar to the one between Wolf and Fox. Immediately after Lucina there yet another ~20 point gap between herself and Snake. From there it gets rather stepladder like, with roughly a ~10 point gap between each of the following in descending order: Snake -> Olimar -> Ike -> Inkling -> MegaMan -> Greninja -> Wario -> Ness. ROB is only 2 points back of Ness.
To me, when roughly looking at the results there's two clear separate front runner groups with Lucina stuck in between the two groups: (/) (). About 6 points later you have one last closish grouping () before things really start rolling down hill.
I think its fair to say that at this time we have our top/high tier list: 18 characters out of 75, almost a whole quarter. Probably throw Roy in there due to being so similar to Chrom and being stuck with the lessor clone syndrome for his results, argue about if Marth and Pikachu get the same treatment or not: potentially up to 21 characters which would push us up over 25%.
To me at least, I'd say there's a more clear cut top tier selection (/ not in order outside of Lucina) and then everyone else would be making up high tier. The gap between the group and the rest is rather substantial. You could maybe argue Lucina down to very top of high tier as she's stranded between the two groups results wise but I would think she makes the cut for top tier due to heavy secondary usage at the highest level of play.
Chrom and Roy have always been good. IDK which is better after Chrom's nerf. Roy has Uair confirms but is that enough to make up for his sour tippers? Regardless of who's better they're at least high tier and potentially top tiers. Their recovery weakness isn't that bad considering their amazing air speed and big disjoints. On stage they're fast and confirm into good damage combos. Frostbite just reminded us why they were always held in high esteem.
I wonder if their methodology overweights regions where one player dominates the scene with an off meta character. For example Peli dominates with Dedede in his own region, but wasn't as successful at Frostbite. Wadi probably soups up ROBs stats since he bodies his region, but he's looking for a co-main after his super major results. Same with Yeti and Mega man and more examples I'm sure, although Kameme has seen some success in bigger events.
There are actually tiny differences in animations (and thus hurtboxes) for Peach and Daisy, and Simon/Richter have slightly different properties for Holy Water (so Richter is better vs Olimar and Simon better vs Link, Young Link and Toon Link, from what I've been told). Still very similar, though.
I'm not convinced Palutena is a top tier at all. At the very least, I wouldn't group her up there with the likes of Wolf, Peach, and Fox. The thing about her is she's one of those characters who actually blew up significantly early on once people realized she has a solid, easy to learn kit, but I think a lot of players have caught up to that by now due to her ubiquity which makes some of those first month results look a little comparatively lopsided. Currently the two best players that are playing her (Dabuz and Nairo) frequently switch off of her the further they make it into bracket presumably because she just doesn't cut the mustard when everything is on the line, and I also think Wolf and Lucina both sort of ate her lunch when it came to being solid all-rounders that are easy to learn and with a good matchup spread.
Normally tier lists aren't even a thing until at least a full year of results for that reason. Palutena is definitely high tier, but in the grand scheme of things I'd probably put her somewhere at a bottom of A-tier, at the very least below characters like Olimar, Inkling, and Greninja. Most likely, Snake is around that same spot.
Perhaps he hasn't played enough good Links to place them properly?
Quite plausible, I'm not really sure how their methodology works.
They're pretty good. High tier seems to be the general opinion, with a few stray voices claiming Roy is top tier.
There are actually tiny differences in animations (and thus hurtboxes) for Peach and Daisy, and Simon/Richter have slightly different properties for Holy Water (so Richter is better vs Olimar and Simon better vs Link, Young Link and Toon Link, from what I've been told). Still very similar, though.
If you go solely by results, but doing that is what made people underrate Corrin in Smash 4. Let's not repeat the same mistakes from Smash 4.
I think Inkling and Olimar should be added to top tier, anyway, potentially Greninja as well. I'm thinking Pikachu is too.
Just going over those results in general I think we're starting to see some rough gaps form and they're worth noting.
Wolf has a 26ish point lead over 2nd place (Fox). Fox to Pichu though is fairly close, about ~12 point span. From Pichu to Lucina there is another noticeable gap despite her being a fairly common secondary, with a ~25 point gap similar to the one between Wolf and Fox. Immediately after Lucina there yet another ~20 point gap between herself and Snake. From there it gets rather stepladder like, with roughly a ~10 point gap between each of the following in descending order: Snake -> Olimar -> Ike -> Inkling -> MegaMan -> Greninja -> Wario -> Ness. ROB is only 2 points back of Ness.
To me, when roughly looking at the results there's two clear separate front runner groups with Lucina stuck in between the two groups: (/) (). About 6 points later you have one last closish grouping () before things really start rolling down hill.
I think its fair to say that at this time we have our top/high tier list: 18 characters out of 75, almost a whole quarter. Probably throw Roy in there due to being so similar to Chrom and being stuck with the lessor clone syndrome for his results, argue about if Marth and Pikachu get the same treatment or not: potentially up to 21 characters which would push us up over 25%.
To me at least, I'd say there's a more clear cut top tier selection (/ not in order outside of Lucina) and then everyone else would be making up high tier. The gap between the group and the rest is rather substantial. You could maybe argue Lucina down to very top of high tier as she's stranded between the two groups results wise but I would think she makes the cut for top tier due to heavy secondary usage at the highest level of play.
I like this analysis. Regarding Chrom and Roy, I wonder if their results should be some number in between Chrom’s score and (Chrom + Roy)’s score. They are not quite echoes, but I wonder how many people would get similar results with one if the other didn’t exist. Anyways, in my own speculation, I’d put them right in the thick of the second group.
I also think the second group has a less proven sub group of Chroy, Ness, (e: Greninja) Mega Man and Rob. I’m way more skeptical of their results than Olimar, Inkling, Ike and Wario for obvious reasons
I'm not convinced Palutena is a top tier at all. At the very least, I wouldn't group her up there with the likes of Wolf, Peach, and Fox. The thing about her is she's one of those characters who actually blew up significantly early on once people realized she has a solid, easy to learn kit, but I think a lot of players have caught up to that by now due to her ubiquity which makes some of those first month results look a little comparatively lopsided. Currently the two best players that are playing her (Dabuz and Nairo) frequently switch off of her the further they make it into bracket presumably because she just doesn't cut the mustard when everything is on the line, and I also think Wolf and Lucina both sort of ate her lunch when it came to being solid all-rounders that are easy to learn and with a good matchup spread.
Normally tier lists aren't even a thing until at least a full year of results for that reason. Palutena is definitely high tier, but in the grand scheme of things I'd probably put her somewhere at a bottom of A-tier, at the very least below characters like Olimar, Inkling, and Greninja. Most likely, Snake is around that same spot.
Nairo on stream last night was talking about how he’s cooling off on Palutena and is just playing her because he hasn’t figured out who he wants to play yet (he’s been screwing around with Wario lately).
Similarly, Ally tweeted “**** character loyalty” and was talking about a secondary. Wadi is looking for a comain and was considering Wario
Corrin wasn't underrated. They were mad overrated for months until the results finally came in. People were dropping him in top 10 or top 5 while their results were down in mid tier range. It was stupid.
Potential without results is meaningless. Always has been, always will be. its something you cannot accurately analyze, quantify, or compare between characters. You don't just look at results and plunk them into a tier list in order no, but a results ranking list and a tier list should look extremely similar. Outside of clone situations, characters should just be rotated within their results bracket to account for things like high secondary usage, or a pro player gaining a lot of points for X character but they always win every tournament in their area no matter who they use and its been that way since Brawl. "Potential" is at most, a tie breaker when all else is equal between characters: if one of them seems to be mostly solved and another one is having new tech discovered then sure at that point place the one with "potential" above the other one.
Pikachu could maybe be in top tier due to basically being Pichu's older brother, that would need a full discussion on their differences and how close they actually are. Olimar I could see happening in the future, would be very interesting to see a fully fleshed out discussion on him and I'd say Wario (who's proven that his weakness to disjoints ain't as bad as it was in previous games) is in a similar boat of "if things keep going this way it could happen". Not buying it on Inkling or Greninja at all. Those two need to put up better results and prove it. Particularly Inkling who has been losing mains if anything, not gaining them.
Corrin wasn't underrated. They were mad overrated for months until the results finally came in. People were dropping him in top 10 or top 5 while their results were down in mid tier range. It was stupid.
Potential without results is meaningless. Always has been, always will be. its something you cannot accurately analyze, quantify, or compare between characters. You don't just look at results and plunk them into a tier list in order no, but a results ranking list and a tier list should look extremely similar. Outside of clone situations, characters should just be rotated within their results bracket to account for things like high secondary usage, or a pro player gaining a lot of points for X character but they always win every tournament in their area no matter who they use and its been that way since Brawl. "Potential" is at most, a tie breaker when all else is equal between characters: if one of them seems to be mostly solved and another one is having new tech discovered then sure at that point place the one with "potential" above the other one.
Pikachu could maybe be in top tier due to basically being Pichu's older brother, that would need a full discussion on their differences and how close they actually are. Olimar I could see happening in the future, would be very interesting to see a fully fleshed out discussion on him and I'd say Wario (who's proven that his weakness to disjoints ain't as bad as it was in previous games) is in a similar boat of "if things keep going this way it could happen". Not buying it on Inkling or Greninja at all. Those two need to put up better results and prove it. Particularly Inkling who has been losing mains if anything, not gaining them.
Nah, Corrin was definitely underrated. Still is, honestly.
Conclusive talk about results right now will continue to remain premature, especially with only three months worth of results that is seeing more than its fair share of character shuffling. Tier lists are always construed to juxtapose results alongside theorycraft/MU spreads, there wouldn't be much point in having them if that weren't the case, we'd better off look at Eventhubs if all we did was look at characters purely based on their numbers without accounting for how much certain tournament results hold outside of a vacuum. Rosalina in Smash 4 was a good example of this; she wasn't nearly played as much as certain other characters in the game, but boy howdy did her actual placings and overall "potential" justify her obscenely high ranking. Fun fact - despite it taking a year for Smash 4 to put out its first tier list, almost everyone agreed that it was still too early to pass judgement, so yeah, three months in doesn't sound that much more compelling.
Anyway, Inkling only lost two notable mains - Dyr and Wishes, and only one of them was actually putting up some fairly notable results. To be frank, there was a lot of fear for a while with Inkling that people were reticent to picking her up out of fear that she'd be hit with the nerf bat, and Cosmos was beginning to consider Mega Man instead, but now it's becoming somewhat evident she's probably not going anywhere. Regardless, the phenomenon of her being dropped isn't exclusive to her. As posted above, Nairo is in the process of dropping Palutena, Dabuz is moving pretty much exclusively to Olimar now. Tweek still doesn't seem entirely committed to maining Wario. The only characters that are trending upwards right now continue to be the simple well-rounded characters like Wolf, but speaking strictly in terms of results, the would-be Top 10 candidates have basically settled into a pretty solid consistency.
With that being said, I feel like Frostbite and Genesis 6 have done a great job highlighting the characters that lean solo-viable. Wolf, Peach, Olimar, Inkling, Fox, Pichu, Lucina and possibly Ike (can't tell if it's just the MKLeo effect) are all characters that right now get into Top 8 or right outside of it consistently without the requirement of any secondary to smooth out the bracket. Palutena might get that point but with where her two best players are at right now it's hard to say. Wario is also tricky but if Tweek sticks to him and some other main shufflers hop onto him, he'll probably be up there as well. Greninja though? I think Lea's proven the character is definitely up there, but knowing how the character's received, the onus is most likely gonna fall on Japan to prove that assertion.
Nairo on stream last night was talking about how he’s cooling off on Palutena and is just playing her because he hasn’t figured out who he wants to play yet (he’s been screwing around with Wario lately).
Similarly, Ally tweeted “**** character loyalty” and was talking about a secondary. Wadi is looking for a comain and was considering Wario
Yeah well people were saying Wolf was a fluke FOTM, that he would drop like a stone etcetra, etcetra . Infact, previous expired flavors. Yeah thats right I mean have had their best showing at a major yet during Frostbite
Honestly I think Wario may just be as good as Wolf. Not as easy to use and pick up spley on fundamentals. But I am having a hard time arguing that he wont reach top-tier status
Yeah well people were saying Wolf was a fluke FOTM, that he would drop like a stone etcetra, etcetra . Infact, previous expired flavors. Yeah thats right I mean have had their best showing at a major yet during Frostbite
Honestly I think Wario may just be as good as Wolf. Not as easy to use and pick up spley on fundamentals. But I am having a hard time arguing that he wont reach top-tier status
Nah, Corrin was definitely underrated. Still is, honestly.
Conclusive talk about results right now will continue to remain premature, especially with only three months worth of results that is seeing more than its fair share of character shuffling. Tier lists are always construed to juxtapose results alongside theorycraft/MU spreads, there wouldn't be much point in having them if that weren't the case, we'd better off look at Eventhubs if all we did was look at characters purely based on their numbers without accounting for how much certain tournament results hold outside of a vacuum. Rosalina in Smash 4 was a good example of this; she wasn't nearly played as much as certain other characters in the game, but boy howdy did her actual placings and overall "potential" justify her obscenely high ranking. Fun fact - despite it taking a year for Smash 4 to put out its first tier list, almost everyone agreed that it was still too early to pass judgement, so yeah, three months in doesn't sound that much more compelling.
Anyway, Inkling only lost two notable mains - Dyr and Wishes, and only one of them was actually putting up some fairly notable results. To be frank, there was a lot of fear for a while with Inkling that people were reticent to picking her up out of fear that she'd be hit with the nerf bat, and Cosmos was beginning to consider Mega Man instead, but now it's becoming somewhat evident she's probably not going anywhere. Regardless, the phenomenon of her being dropped isn't exclusive to her. As posted above, Nairo is in the process of dropping Palutena, Dabuz is moving pretty much exclusively to Olimar now. Tweek still doesn't seem entirely committed to maining Wario. The only characters that are trending upwards right now continue to be the simple well-rounded characters like Wolf, but speaking strictly in terms of results, the would-be Top 10 candidates have basically settled into a pretty solid consistency.
With that being said, I feel like Frostbite and Genesis 6 have done a great job highlighting the characters that lean solo-viable. Wolf, Peach, Olimar, Inkling, Fox, Pichu, Lucina and possibly Ike (can't tell if it's just the MKLeo effect) are all characters that right now get into Top 8 or right outside of it consistently without the requirement of any secondary to smooth out the bracket. Palutena might get that point but with where her two best players are at right now it's hard to say. Wario is also tricky but if Tweek sticks to him and some other main shufflers hop onto him, he'll probably be up there as well. Greninja though? I think Lea's proven the character is definitely up there, but knowing how the character's received, the onus is most likely gonna fall on Japan to prove that assertion.
I disagree with what you're saying about tier list. It shouldn't take that long to make a tier list for a game. Games develop a lot faster than they used to and tech is discovered a lot quicker. So we can whip up a tier list pretty quickly just based off our understanding of the game. Then we can reevaluate the tier list as time goes on. By this time we know how to evaluate a character their tools and what makes them strong or weak.
Personally I am very skeptical of what top players say, they say something and the next week or two another, like how Mkleo and Zer0 main was cloud, but only used him one tournament then never again, the 5 mains of leffen, Mr.R using the term "main" despite not even competing in a big tournaments, anti rotating characters each month, Salem super duper secret main.
I think that i see the same think each week, top players complaining about their "mains" or been down on them, then praising another character and considering to main them.
It will be interesting to see whether Wario can remain at the current perceived level of viability, specifically if his amazing short hop can compensate for his grounded deficiencies.
His short hop has to be top 5 for quality and quantity of options (rising fair, rising nair, falling nair, falling uair, empty land). It's difficult to say if it or Wolf's is better. Wolf's absurd short hop (strong nair, weak nair, rising fair, falling fair, uair air-to-air, laser, empty land) and aerial mobility fits into a character with large hitboxes and an oppressive ground game, so it's less centralizing of an aspect to his kit.
In absolute terms, Wolf's is probably safer and more consistent, especially considering that Wolf's grab game, quick and pressure-enhancing dtilt, and far-ranging and strong ftilt enable him to benefit more from empty land than Wario, who in a similar situation can only really count on positional advantage or a down-b hard read. The looming threat of Wario down-b confirms probably makes his mixups stronger, though.
Personally I am very skeptical of what top players say, they say something and the next week or two another, like how Mkleo and Zer0 main was cloud, but only used him one tournament then never again, the 5 mains of leffen, Mr.R using the term "main" despite not even competing in a big tournaments, anti rotating characters each month, Salem super duper secret main.
I think that i see the same think each week, top players complaining about their "mains" or been down on them, then praising another character and considering to main them.
You kinda gotta look at why they are saying the things they are. Zero's said a bunch of whack stuff, but that's cuz he's trying to generate views. Hence, and rather predictively so, he favors views that are polemic, contrarian and most of all controversial.
I disagree with what you're saying about tier list. It shouldn't take that long to make a tier list for a game. Games develop a lot faster than they used to and tech is discovered a lot quicker. So we can whip up a tier list pretty quickly just based off our understanding of the game. Then we can reevaluate the tier list as time goes on. By this time we know how to evaluate a character their tools and what makes them strong or weak.
"Games develop faster than they do" is a sentiment everyone expresses with every single title that comes out these days, and every single time people fail to stay in their lane. Smash 4 was no exception, it took no less than two months for people to sour on "top tier candidates" like Bowser, Yoshi, and Little Mac and think they've figured it out, the same way some people think they've figured "this character is not good actually" right now. People thought they finally had it figured out a year and two months into the game when Ryu and Pikachu were ranked in Top 5, while Diddy Kong was 9th, Cloud was 12th, and Ness was 13th. In the end? Ryu and Pikachu dropped hard, Ness dropped precipitously, while Diddy and Cloud ended up Top 3. This isn't even accounting for all the exponential rises like Link and Duck Hunt, or other "statistical noise" jumps between tier lists like Villager.
So no, it does take a long time to form a tier list, and whatever assumption one may have about players being "more adept" now or whatever at figuring out the metagame is counterbalanced by the fact that we're now dealing with even more characters and matchups - especially when we've got even more characters coming down the pipeline and balance patches to account for.
Raw data from Orion Stats is all well and good but it isn’t contextualised and doesn't account for popularity and trends. I'm not talking about "potential" here; popularity is a very real thing which prevents clearly amazing characters from dominating results in raw numbers whilst simultaneously inflating the results of characters who dominate lower levels. Any tier list which doesn't put Olimar and Inkling in the highest echelon of characters is flawed in my book, their solo success at major and supermajor level is too good to ignore even if they're used by few players.
Plus, let's be real, look at the tools. These characters are top tier.
"But popularity is correlated with how good a character is!" and would like a word with you. There are characters and playstyles that people gravitate away from despite being top tier. Olimar is really campy and pretty technical, Inkling has a unique mechanic and requires creativity to get kills (and is probably held back by the "Inkling is overrated" meme). Popularity is correlated with strength but it’s not definitive.
On the flipside Palutena's results are beefed up by her sheer popularity putting her in top 5 territory, yet she’s trending down as her best players are moving away from her and she’s constantly propped up by secondaries at top level. She strikes me as a top of high tier character, maybe bottom of top tier but there are more deserving characters of that top tier classification despite her raw stats being better.
Considering these factors I'd suggest we’re looking at an (unordered) top tier of and probably . may belong in that group as well but considering his very lacking results even with popularity considered it’s not right to put him there at this stage.
You then have the crew in high tier (there are others I’m forgetting including Palutena, don’t get mad if I haven’t listed your main Ness players) who have all shown strong solo performances or, in Wario’s case, success at the absolute top level vs the best characters.
I expect and maybe to join the highest echelon of characters in due course.
"Games develop faster than they do" is a sentiment everyone expresses with every single title that comes out these days, and every single time people fail to stay in their lane. Smash 4 was no exception, it took no less than two months for people to sour on "top tier candidates" like Bowser, Yoshi, and Little Mac and think they've figured it out, the same way some people think they've figured "this character is not good actually" right now. People thought they finally had it figured out a year and two months into the game when Ryu and Pikachu were ranked in Top 5, while Diddy Kong was 9th, Cloud was 12th, and Ness was 13th. In the end? Ryu and Pikachu dropped hard, Ness dropped precipitously, while Diddy and Cloud ended up Top 3. This isn't even accounting for all the exponential rises like Link and Duck Hunt, or other "statistical noise" jumps between tier lists like Villager.
So no, it does take a long time to form a tier list, and whatever assumption one may have about players being "more adept" now or whatever at figuring out the metagame is counterbalanced by the fact that we're now dealing with even more characters and matchups - especially when we've got even more characters coming down the pipeline and balance patches to account for.
As I said you can revisit a tier list but that doesnt change the fact that an early tier list can be made. The biggest problem that crops up with tier list are people's bias. Which is pretty blatant when people aren't objectively looking at the tools of a character. Nothing is going to be set in stone when it comes to a tier list these days because of patches so characters will change over time.
A Tier List right now wouldn't make sense, and since the game is still getting patched, and a major one is coming up soon, as well as Joker still entering Smash Bros. along with 4 other newcomers, we literally can't make up anything right now. Yes sure we could do a lesser official 2.00 Patch Ultimate Tier List purely for perspective sake, but it literally would only serve for that purpose.
It's important to differentiate Wario from Tweek's Wario. Wario is a high tier for sure but you don't see hoards of Warios placing like you do with Wolf, Mushroom Princesses or even Snake. The only Wario mains I can think of to place high are Tweek and Gluttony and Tweek always has secondaries. I don't see Wario being top tier.
Wario has strong mobility in the air, good weight and recovery for survival and the clutch factor of Waft. His weaknesses include very poor range and limited projectiles (he can throw his bike) so anyone who can zone can out-zone him if they outplay him. Wario rewards good players heavily but lacks the oppressive tools top tiers have that shutdown opponents' game plans. Waft seems incredible when it hits but Wario's put in a bad position if he wiffs it.
I think Wario has great stats and is an upper high tier.
As I said you can revisit a tier list but that doesnt change the fact that an early tier list can be made. The biggest problem that crops up with tier list are people's bias. Which is pretty blatant when people aren't objectively looking at the tools of a character. Nothing is going to be set in stone when it comes to a tier list these days because of patches so characters will change over time.
There's no value of an early tier list outside of doing it just for the sake of having one. If anything one of the big consequences of having an early tier list is that it starts to drastically color perceptions on who to pick up. Look at how many people have picked up Wolf just because of Zackray. Now imagine if the UBR puts out the "official tier list" tomorrow that puts Wolf at number 1 based strictly on this uptrend while a character like Greninja is stuck somewhere in mid-tier simply because Lea's one of the only few that's been putting in the work in the big spotlight - or a better example yet, putting Pikachu in mid-tier just because ESAM is the only one who didn't go for the more hip and younger brethren. Now you've just enabled a non-insignificant amount of players to drop meta development so you can pick to win, and let's be real here; Smash fans are extremely impressionable. That's why players like ZeRo, ESAM, etc. are constantly making "tier list" videos, because that's all anyone wants to talk about and find out. It rakes in the views, but it doesn't actually do anything productive at this stage. It's just ammo people have for justifying their picks.
Ultimate isn't going anywhere anytime soon, there's no rush. Push your character's development, then we can talk. Character Discords continue to figure things out about their characters every day, and turning that into an arms race is the least conducive thing for a developing scene to do right now.
There's no value of an early tier list outside of doing it just for the sake of having one. If anything one of the big consequences of having an early tier list is that it starts to drastically color perceptions on who to pick up. Look at how many people have picked up Wolf just because of Zackray. Now imagine if the UBR puts out the "official tier list" tomorrow that puts Wolf at number 1 based strictly on this uptrend while a character like Greninja is stuck somewhere in mid-tier simply because Lea's one of the only few that's been putting in the work in the big spotlight - or a better example yet, putting Pikachu in mid-tier just because ESAM is the only one who didn't go for the more hip and younger brethren. Now you've just enabled a non-insignificant amount of players to drop meta development so you can pick to win, and let's be real here; Smash fans are extremely impressionable. That's why players like ZeRo, ESAM, etc. are constantly making "tier list" videos, because that's all anyone wants to talk about and find out. It rakes in the views.
Ultimate isn't going anywhere anytime soon, there's no rush. Push your character's development, then we can talk. Character Discords continue to figure things out about their characters every day, and turning that into an arms race is the least conducive thing to do right now.
If people begin to flock to a character because a tier list is released then so be it. People do like discussing and talking about tiers it happens in every game. Hell it's the reason why we're discussing things right now. Is a tier list going to be 100% accurate ? No. Will it be perfect ? No. So why wait to release one ? No characters are going to develop at the same time and people will drop characters to increase their chances at winning. Unless of course you're a character loyalist but I'm not really sure what any of this has to do with a tier list. Some charactrers dont get fleshed out and dont get explored thoroughly but that happens. This roster has a lot of characters in it.
It's important to differentiate Wario from Tweek's Wario. Wario is a high tier for sure but you don't see hoards of Warios placing like you do with Wolf, Mushroom Princesses or even Snake. The only Wario mains I can think of to place high are Tweek and Gluttony and Tweek always has secondaries. I don't see Wario being top tier.
Wario has strong mobility in the air, good weight and recovery for survival and the clutch factor of Waft. His weaknesses include very poor range and limited projectiles (he can throw his bike) so anyone who can zone can out-zone him if they outplay him. Wario rewards good players heavily but lacks the oppressive tools top tiers have that shutdown opponents' game plans. Waft seems incredible when it hits but Wario's put in a bad position if he wiffs it.
I think Wario has great stats and is an upper high tier.
eh cut the **** bro. Wario is a legit character and it's not just tweek there's also gluttony and zachray has started to pick him up too. He's a legit threat and a character that needs to be watched out for.
If people begin to flock to a character because a tier list is released then so be it. People do like discussing and talking about tiers it happens in every game. Hell it's the reason why we're discussing things right now.
Yeah, we're talking about how characters are doing and where they might eventually land. None of us right now are talking about putting out a conclusive tier list though.
eh cut the **** bro. Wario is a legit character and it's not just tweek there's also gluttony and zachray has started to pick him up too. He's a legit threat and a character that needs to be watched out for.
I actually do think Wario is legit, and possibly Top Tier. He just suffers in a few matchups due to bad disadvantage probably, but having a few weak Top Tier matchups didn't keep previous Smash games' Top Tiers out of Top Tier. I think that overall, Wario is better than the likes of Inkling. Because Wario has actual good results, despite being backed with a secondary. I would still say Ike is better than him, but only slightly. And from there, I think anything worse than them might actually be High Tier, or if Top Tier is S-Tier, all lower than them being A-Tier.
I don't think Ultimate has anything less than D-Tier honestly.
Also, Wolf is probably the best character as of now.
Yeah, we're talking about how characters are doing and where they might eventually land. None of us right now are talking about putting out a conclusive tier list though.
So I guess all these pro players that put out tier list are stupid then? Or they just selling out for views? C'mon man. A tier list isn't that sacred nor is it that special.
So I guess all these pro players that put out tier list are stupid then? Or they just selling out for views? C'mon man. A tier list isn't that sacred nor is it that special.
A lot of people have been saying that Fox has the better recovery but I think that Falco's is just as good as Fox's as his side-b is faster and his jump height and fall speed are quite a bit lower than Fox which makes his vertical recovery better than it would be, if his attributes weren't the way they are.
What do you guys thing about ? A lot of people say he is high tier apparently, but I just feet like he gets destroyed in too many MU's. He might be the best he has ever been, but it doesn't feel like it is enough.
I think that he'll play a similar role to Smash 4 where he serves as a good counterpick to a lot of the swordfighters (like ) and characters who can't contest his speed and range (like ). I also think that he does pretty well against as he kills pikmin on him with ease and can kill him at stupidly early percents. I think that if someone is able to play extremely successfully at tournaments, he could be on the high end of high tier. If not, then he's probably going to be low high tier/high mid tier.
I honestly feel bowser is one of my easier matchups with roy. I feel like all I need to do is have solid spacing and I win because it is so easy to do my strings on him. He is prime time combo food.
I feel like Roy is one of the swordfighters does poorly against becasue excels at close range and is one of the few characters who is faster than himself. This combined with his early kill confirms/powerful attacks leads me to believe that (and by extention, ) have an edge in the matchup compared to the other swordfighters.
Edit 1: Added the pictures of Lucas's combos since they would not load earlier and the image button did not work properly. I also removed the lone [/QUOTE] from the bottom of this post.
Edit 2: The_Bookworm
Please do not ask me where I rank Lucas on a tier list or what match-ups he wins or loses. I will politely decline like I did years ago. Also I enjoy that the quality of your posts have improved from when you joined, good job.
Do you guys think Lucas has a place in the meta with his weird niche or will his inconsistency stop his placings? Also fellow Lucas mains do you also force opponents offstage asap or do you give in to neutral?
A: I work to get my opponents offstage since that is the goal of the game, I also value stage control. You don't "give in" to neutral, instead know the limits of your character and your opponent's options so you do not overextend and risk throwing your lead.
A: F-smash is Lucas's worst smash attack in my opinion. Down smash is better in more ways than one; not only does it deal more damage than F-smash, it launches at a lower angle that is great for horizontal kills, plus it has higher knockback growth than F-smash. F-Smash's only use to me is as reflector.
A: I cannot speak for his grab since I have not done research on that but I can speak for his aerials (I did but the only thing I found changed from S4 was that his Dash Grab gained 5 First Active Frames bringing it up to 45 from 40). His F-air is stronger which allows it take stocks earlier than we could in S4; Lucas Discord also says that it barely outranges Lucina's F-air using Wii Fit Trainer as the dummy. F-air is also safe on shield when landing. His Up-air got a range buff (ness's S4 Up-air); it can also combo into itself 4 times from 30% (if done from a falling up air near the ground) which deals 44.8% and takes the opponent to 74.8%. If not done from a falling Up-air, you can get 3 reps of the move. I can't comment on B-air since Lucas Discord does not currently have the Base Knockback and Knockback Growth for the move yet in the resource channel.
His D-air however, is my favorite out of the buffed aerials. The move now properly connects into the following hits and Lucas is able to drag opponents offstage, no matter the percent. It's VERY easy to take stocks with this move, even as low as 15% or less as long as Lucas keeps using D-air and follows his opponent to the blastzone (he is Lucas he can recover from there).
We've also gained the ability to perform D-air loops starting from 60% into a Down Smash or F-smash of choice (F-smash is easier to connect with as Down Smash has a 2 frame buffer window) that kills. This works on 66 characters from the current roster.
As for Z-air, it got a range nerf, but we gained the ability to perform double jump-cancel Z-air (DJC Z-air) loops that combos into the rest of our kit minus Up Smash. It can even carry opponents from one end of the stage to the other and confirm into a F-air for the kill.
Below is a video example of DJC Z-air and screenshots of Lucas's combos from the Lucas Discord are in the spoiler tab. Actually no, all of this is going in a spoiler tab.
There's not much to cover on PK Freeze, since you guys talked about it long ago. The move can force approaches, bait and catch airdodges (including DAD), and punish multiple ledge options since the move no longer stops charging when it comes into contact with the ground and as of Ultimate, it can travel through platforms. Did I mention that it lasts for 4 frames? Knowing this, it can cover all ledge options, including 2 frames (unless Lucas gets countered while standing right next to the enemy then that is a dead Lucas main).
Lucas's F-tilt is now a kill move similar to Pichu's F-tilt, both kill around 120% according to the answers I got in both servers. PK Thunder now has considerably less endlag from S4 but it's still punishable and lasts longer than Ness's PKT. Magnet on the other hand, now has a windbox near it to suck opponents into Magnet's hitbox on release. The windbox can be used to gimp opponents or to miss a heal vs stationary grenades and Toon/Young Link's Bombs. Magnet is also +12 on shield; Lucas can even interrupt Magnet's endlag earlier than the animation implies to setup blockstrings that we have not fully explored yet.
PK Fire has more damage and knockback compared to S4 which allows it to kill earlier too.
A: Lucas's Up Smash can beat's Ivysaur's D-air due to it's frame 1-4 invincibility. Speaking of Up Smash, due to Attack Cancel, Lucas can now abuse his Up Smash's invincibility to use an aerial of his choice (1 frame input).
None of this info is relevant because as you guys have said in the S4 CCI threads and in this thread, results matter. For those that needed a top player to touch Lucas to get interested, Dabuz has been in Lucascord. He came there about a month ago and chatted it up with us. He then proceeded to play Lucas on stream for a few days in online matches. At one point I assumed Dabuz struggled with Fox because he came back to the server complaining about that match-up which is understandable because Fox is fast and Lucas has a bad disadvantage when it comes to landing. I thought he dipped after that but a few weeks later, he showed back up. That's all I got for that.
In addition to this, it would be nice to add in CPU replay to training mode, as well as a visualization of hit/hurtboxes and the abilty to swap characters without having to quit training mode.
The smash4 generation of smashers (and older generation definitely not immune to being swept up by it) have been raised to equate pressing buttons to enjoyable / strong characters.
It's really sad.
People only care about meta development if it's a combo set up.
What about using your moves intelligently? What can you achieve with a character if you aren't all about pressing buttons? What the flying **** is neutral game and why does it not care about
whether side-b into down-b into neutral b in this really niche situation combos?
A: Yep, it's really sad, but that is how people want to play. They no longer care for the deep mind games that occurs between players as they improve. Well, that's not entirely true, I get to read about that from time to time in this thread whenever a tourney rolls around.
The best thing I've figured out I can do is to try and share information to those who are willing to listen. I made an FGC doc some years ago during S4 and I've been DM'ing players who I stumble across that I assume are new or
lost after I ask them would they like help. So far, they have all enjoyed the notes and one Lucas main managed to become the top player in his region, another is currently on their way there, and they are improving fast. Meh, I don't know what else to add to this part. Sorry Shaya.
A: Smash players will find a way to make sure that the good buttons always do the "smart play" for them and focus their mind elsewhere. Which is smart on their part.
Wait people actually think a half circle and a dragon punch are hard inputs? I mean I did play a lot of MvC but if somebody can’t dragon punch I have no idea how they’re gonna do half the BnB combos in Smash with not just Ken and Ryu but a ton of characters. Dragon punch is far easier to pull off then a lot of tech and combos in this game.
A: You don't know the half of it. Back in the S4 days, so many players claimed Ryu was technical and threw fits over input commands. It's ludricous. Even players on Smashboards shared the same view and I tried to explain it to them but got brushed off and they went back to calling Ryu technical. You can probably find old S4 forums in the Ryu thread about it. I know Scrubquotes is full of them.
Lucina overshadowing Marth (where you at, Lucina mains who always debated with everyone in smash 4? this is your moment; you're not blatantly wrong any more!)
A: I was going to @ the user "Family Matters", but it seems like they deleted their account or changed their name. Rip. I remember they were so passionate in the Marthcina wars of S4.
A: They are not hard to pull off. It just takes a few hours, more or less depending on the player and you'll get them down in no time. Knowing Smash players, that is asking too much of them.
A: That's because Shaya isn't a pro smasher nor a personality on Youtube or Twitter as far as I'm aware of. Many smashers are probably unaware of this very thread unless a tier list is released sometime in the future; even they won't bother to check this out since it looks intimidating from the outside. Seeing 20 to 100+ pages of text. I would walk out too if this was my first time seeing a forum.
I also disagree that they're top tier because they're easy to play, if that's true then shouldn't they eventually fall out of top tier once people learn how to play better characters?
A: You and I both should know that Smash players and anyone in competitive games love the strong and easy stuff when it comes to winning. Don't fool yourself. FGC veterans that have played BBTAG know what Team Gorby (Gordeau and Ruby Rose) is capable of. Full screen, fast, and high priority hitboxes? Sign me up.
A: No, YOU need to go to Rosalina Discord and check out the information for yourself. There is no need why a public Discord server for a videogame that gets referenced multiple times in a discussion need to go out of their way and share information here. By staying only in this forum you are limiting yourself to information around the web. It's out there, go get it, no need to stay in the dark.
I know this sounds rude and like I'm attacking you but I'm trying to be helpful. You can't just sit here and wait for all the Discord servers for different characters to drop important information for the match-up on your lap (be grateful that some even bothered to come here). If you were not aware of the Discord servers prior to this then I understand. For some players, it takes losing a match-up to convince them to join X character server.
The day after I typed this post and was trying to figure out a spoiler tab issue, I remembered that people have lives so I can't expect everyone to check character discord servers. Welp, I've backed myself into a corner there.
A: He shielded at 4:20. 4:22, 4:36, spot-dodged at 4:42, 4:44, rolled at 4:54, 5:07, rolls at 5:14, rolls at 5:54, spotdodges at 6:52, and rolls at 7:03.
Your point still stands though. Venia likes to keep his options open rather than auto-piloting to shield or a roll when he is scared or unsure of what to do. The only time he does use these options is when there is no better choice but to shield, roll, or spotdodge. His rolls were to cross up the Bowser, since all Bowser did was approach and to dodge a dash grab, dash attack, or a down/forward tilt that the Bowser may have thrown out since Venia acknowledged that he was in range of them. This Bowser player was also very predictable in his approaches. He barely mixed them up. His spot-dodges were to punish grabs or jabs when Venia found himself at point blank range next to Bowser; Venia had the knowledge and used it (spot-dodges can be canceled early with attacks) as an attempt to punish whatever the Bowser chose.into attacks.
Venia played optimally. It's the same way I play Lucas. I would hope more (read: all) players learn to pick this up, but I'd be lying to myself. Oh, another thing Venia's playstyle allowed him to get that others would miss due to shielding every time they get scared (probably a bad habit from online battles, I know I picked it up before), were shield grabs on this Bowser player.
@Chainz. This is a bit of a general question, but in terms of the hardly ever shielding thing, do u believe that's more of a playstyle or a luxury afforded to really fast characters like Greninja?
A: I believe it's a player thing so it would fall under playstyle for you. Every player can do this with every character to a different extent. Being patient instead of button-mashing your way to victory like S4 taught a majority of the fanbase, is a valid strategy. But why do that when the easier option is to listen to the top players and pick the characters that allow you to button-mash to victory and have fun until you hit a roadblock and start complaining. Say hello, to Ness, Lucas, and other projectile users that get stereotyped as spamming and not playing the same game as everyone else. As Justin Wong would say: "You gonna' learn today!" Speaking of JWong, he recently uploaded a guide called the "Art of Playing Lame". A lot of what he talks about can be applied to Smash. If you are interested, give it an extra view.
Once again, why do this instead of playing a top tier with good buttons? Because you can. Just don't get salty or easily frustrated if you run into a "JWong" in bracket.
None, but most had a ton of exploration regardless. I don't know what's going to happen with the Kens, Ryus, or Shulks of this game with the current mentality. Kids are jumping into Smash with a goal of getting PRed now, not so much to be the best with their chosen character.The only seemingly high-tech "low tier" character getting lots of exploration are ICs, but I haven't seen much beyond twitter combos.
A: Not true, Ken and Shulk are getting a ton of metagame development, it's just not being shared here and is kept on their Discord servers. You are free to check them out though. Here is a video of a recent Shulk Combo and here is one for Ken.
There was a problem fetching the tweet
Shulk Discord calls this the Monado Cyclone.
Since this killed Pichu, it's probably going to get you guys talking. At max rage this kills Pichu at 30%. Shulk Discord also has a doc that details kill %'s for the cast and two more videos in their resource channel covering this combo.
Link:
Ryu/Ken Discord has a ton of other fun stuff that Ken is able to pull off (I'm watching the videos as I type this). He even has a true shield break combo that players will never see coming unless it is done to them alot, or they visit this Discord before a match. Ken also has true combos into his F-smash that kill. Ken is very fun.
Here are three for Ice Climbers since I have been putting a lot of time into them. I'm a sucker for any combos that remind me of fighting games. Do Ice Climber combos remind anyone of Carl Clover from the Blazblu series? I loved the previous FGC talk I have read up on in this thread; so glad to see: UNIEL, DBFZ, MVC2, UMVC3, MVCI, TEKKEN 7, AND SFV.
A: No, YOU need to go to Rosalina Discord and check out the information for yourself. There is no need why a public Discord server for a videogame that gets referenced multiple times in a discussion need to go out of their way and share information here. By staying only in this forum you are limiting yourself to information around the web. It's out there, go get it, no need to stay in the dark.
I know this sounds rude and like I'm attacking you but I'm trying to be helpful. You can't just sit here and wait for all the Discord servers for different characters to drop important information for the match-up on your lap (be grateful that some even bothered to come here). If you were not aware of the Discord servers prior to this then I understand. For some players, it takes losing a match-up to convince them to join X character server.
The day after I typed this post and was trying to figure out a spoiler tab issue, I remembered that people have lives so I can't expect everyone to check character discord servers. Welp, I've backed myself into a corner there.
I could argue the point (which you admit yourself) or even agree to some of your sentiment (while pointing out I'm already in multiple character Discords) but I think that's kinda setting aside that the joke in that post didn't have to do with the overall implication so I dunno
after frostbite and 
