Official Competitive Character Impressions 2.0

[DJ3DS]

Not that it matters much anymore but I'm surprised nobody has proposed Inkling as the character with the highest win rate. Despite not having major tourney results offline she is everywhere online, and had an abusable roller (especially with online messing with reactions) to seal early stocks with thanks to bury

Inkling has too much mass appeal, to the extent that a large majority of the online Inklings aren't particularly scary to face.

Someone mentioned earlier that Wii Fit had an abnormally high win rate in 4, and this wouldn't be because there was anything special about her - just that anyone who would regularly play such an unpopular character (equipped with weird hitboxes to boot) was likely very good.

Still, it's hard to fathom exactly how the audience at large works. My last local had 6 Lucas mains in a 25 man bracket, so my perceptions are already warped to an extreme.

 

[MG_3989]

Inkling has too much mass appeal, to the extent that a large majority of the online Inklings aren't particularly scary to face.

Someone mentioned earlier that Wii Fit had an abnormally high win rate in 4, and this wouldn't be because there was anything special about her - just that anyone who would regularly play such an unpopular character (equipped with weird hitboxes to boot) was likely very good.

Still, it's hard to fathom exactly how the audience at large works. My last local had 6 Lucas mains in a 25 man bracket, so my perceptions are already warped to an extreme.

I mean everyone’s perceptions are skewed, but 6 Lucas mains in a 25 man tourney? That’s ridiculous. Not that Lucas is a bad character, I think he’s good but that’s a fair bit of over representation. If it was say 6 Lucina’s or Snake’s or Cloud’s or hell even Ness’s that would make more sense to me based on their early tourney results but I guess Lucas is just popular in your region

 

[Thinkaman]

It's just as possible for an upopular character to be bad as good. It's just that a more specific, more niche playerbase has the opportunity for more disproportionate representation of any arbitrary metric. (Including "good players who win more often")

 

[MG_3989]

It's just as possible for an upopular character to be bad as good. It's just that a more specific, more niche playerbase has the opportunity for more disproportionate representation of any arbitrary metric. (Including "good players who win more often")

Yeah I definitely agree with this but that’s why I was thinking it’s someone like Marth who is good who Lucina is completely overshadowing right now. I mean I don’t know usage stats but Marth has got to be in the bottom half right now especially in Elite if people are following the “Lucina is better” trend. That was just one of my guesses though, I could be off base. It could be a character like Duckhunt too

 

[Minordeth]

All this talk about what character has the best winrate online, and no one brings up Zelda: Empress of Lag Opportunism? Smh.

 

[KamikazePotato]

All this talk about what character has the best winrate online, and no one brings up Zelda: Empress of Lag Opportunism? Smh.

Zelda is hardly the worst offender of being boosted by laggy online environments. Take any character with a projectile camping under the platform of a Battlefield-style stage and you've got a recipe for misery. DeDeDe Gordos immediately come to mind.

 

[ZephyrZ]

As for the high win rate character, my money is on Dr.Mario.

He's a niche character with dedicated players. He faces competition with the much more mobile and popular vanilla Mario. He's not the biggest lag abuser but he still does have a projectile and reflector of his own. He's recieved significant buffs from Smash 4, making him much more viable. Most importantly though, all three or four Docs I've faced in quickplay had fantastic control of their movements and spacing and played smart. It's a small sample size but I haven't fought a single awful Doc player yet while I've fought plenty of scrubby Wolfs, Ganons and Clouds.

 

[Rizen]

I've been going to weekly tournaments and using . Nothing big; the number of contestants has always been in the 40s. The YL forums are dead so I'm going to drop some MU bombs here where someone will actually see them.

First off, YL out-camps almost everyone. He stalemates a few characters like Olimar but only loses camping to Toon Link. As such he likes big stages and should strike smaller ones like Lylat and BF. Boomerang's always good for long term space control, bombs are versatile and fire arrows are stupidly good. Spamming arrows will probably out-spam most characters.
YL has (combo) conversions off his projectiles into things like Nair. He's got air to ground conversions in N/F/Bair and can Dtilt combo into aerials. He deals a ton of damage and can do things like Fair1>land Dtilt>SH Nair for 30ish % (true combo).
YL has some trouble killing but Dsmash is frame 9, combos from Fair 1 and is fairly good to throw out. Dsmash launches at low angles and is a big reason YL doesn't lose hard to characters like Chrom.
IMO YL's easily a high tier but on the lower end. He gets outclassed slightly by characters like Ness and Wario.

Spoiler: YL's MUs that I've played

YL out-camps characters by varying degrees. DK has a very hard time getting in. This MU will probably end up on stages like Yoshi's Island (ugh) because DK wants to ban TnC and FD and YL BF and Lylat. There's not a lot to say about this MU besides DK plays patiently then does DK things when he gets in. YL should camp hard and chain off conversions. DK has a terrible disadvantage but his advantage is scary, backed by good mobility and sword-like reach. +1 YL.

Fox has reflector to stop long range camping and an incredible burst game. YL can try to throw projectiles out at mid-range but it's always risky. His main advantage is having longer reach than Fox. This is one of the MUs I feel YL simply gets outclassed. Fox is the better character with amazing burst moves and kill options. Fox destroys YL in CQC and YL must maintain a precarious spacing game to have any advantage. -1.5.

although Ganon gets outcamped hard he has burst options like wizkick you have to respect. YL can easily get 50%ish chains on Ganon but Ganon has huuuuuge attacks, especially smashes that kill at 70%. It's one of the more stressful MUs because errors get punished hard. Dsmash is great because Ganon's recovery is complete ****. This is one of several MUs where YL wants to focus on getting the opponent offstage for gimps. +1.

's Nairplane covers a surprising amount of space. YL's f4 Nair outbuttons in the air if YL's close but Ike's jab and non-tether grab win CQC on the ground. Ike is great at controlling space given the chance. This is a very momentum based fight. In the end, Ike has an easier time killing and lives longer. -.5.

I covered her in the past. The jist is she has a well rounded kit but is ultimately undertuned. Pocket is annoying but doesn't stop YL from out-camping her and YL seems to have better reward off conversions. Isabelle doesn't have enough power in her corner.
+1.5.

This MU looks like hell for DDD. His mobility sucks, gordos get bounced back by everything YL throws out to the point you shouldn't bother with them. He can suck up a projectile but YL can shield it or even hylian shield it by standing still. Oh look you got an anti-projectile inhale; let's pin it up on the refregerator with this happy sun magnet. The fat penguin lives forever, I got him to 200%, but he soaks up damage like a sponge. YL walls him and abuses his disadvantage so hard.
+2 at least.

YL slightly outcamps Link; why this is important is YL can force him to approach. This is a weird spacing MU: YL wins up close, Link walls hard with his longer sword a bit farther out, then YL out-camps at midrange. The #1 PRed player from Brawl (IDK what rank he is now) plays Link and it's much harder to gimp a good Link. ...JK I gimped him at 33%. Like Ganon you should prioritize getting Link offstage and gimping him. Link can control space very well with Fair/Utilt/Usmash walls and has great kill power. He also has probably the best intercepting game of the cast.
It's even. YL can put Link in predicaments but Link hits hard and walls well.

(Did I fight a Lucas or just watch one? I can't remember, lol)

sorry to everyone saying Mewtwo's good but he seems underwhelming. YL has great walling with projectiles and chains on his big body. Mewtwo has good offensive pressure when he gets going but I feel YL solidly wins neutral. Mewtwo takes even less of a beating than YL before going down.
+1 or better.

gets harassed by YL's things, he can't absorb arrows or boomerang and soft tossed bombs bounce off magnet. He also harasses YL hard with his BS. At the end of the day, Ness hits harder. Bthrow is an amazing kill option and he has several other handy moves that finish YL off faster than YL finishes Ness.
-1.

one of the few characters who can build damage as fast as YL. This MU can be fierce or extremely campy as both characters are great offensively. It boils down to who does their thing better.
Even.

the rat's hard to pin down. If YL is at a stock disadvantage he can be in real trouble. It seems fairly even but Pika's gameplan is more simple while being as effective.
Even or -.5.

can't control space like the FE gang. YL out camps him and although Pit/DP has well rounded options, he doesn't have a great way too keep up with the 8 year old.
+1.

gets outcamped hard. He really doesn't have a good answer to it. Although he's quick up close and deadly in advantage, he can't force anything. YL's projectile help him offstage and lessen his own disadvantage. Ridley can be scary with momentum but gets abused too hard and doesn't control neutral. Unlike true superheavies, he can't take a large beating either.
+1 at least.

Roy/Chrom are ferocious at CQC. Getting chip damage is easy enough but going in for a kill is super risky. Chrom's recovery is more dangerous to challenge, less so since the patch.
Roy's even or +.5 and Chrom's -.5. Chrom's still better.

is the better camper. This MU can be a real pain in the butt because TL is floaty, faster running and in the air and has wider swings. YL has tons of trouble getting to the point where he can begin to combo. Both characters do the same thing but TL does it better, kills off stray hits and is heavier. I hate this MU.
-1.5.

YL gets chip damage easily but Wario's slippery and very hard to hit with a smash. If he's not smashed he lives to 160% easily and waft kills at 60-70%. YL can't afford many mistakes and has to keep chipping away while Wario brews a bomb in his lower intestines.
-1.

contrary to what I said some time back, this MU's even. YL can spam arrows as an answer to Wolf's blaster. Wolf hits harder but YL has safer pokes with projectiles and chains off them. YL slightly controls the match but Wolf can make a few more mistakes.

can take a hit and has good mobility. Aside from that YL generally controls the match. Both characters can have trouble killing.
At least +1.

is much better than in SSB4. YL out camps but must be smart about it as the big Z has several tools to get around it, including Nayru's which reflects and functions as a GTFO move. Zelda can kill early but is a glass cannon herself. I feel like YL's tools are a bit stronger than Zelda's.
+.5 or +1.

 

[Minordeth]

Does anyone find the new short hop macro useful? I can't help but feel like they should've just made a dedicated short hop button instead. Hopefully a toggle for the short hop aerial macro follows suit. Maybe a toggle for button hold buffering too since a lot of people don't like it.

I do.

It's been something of a godsend. My hands are large, and I have found that as I've gotten older that the GC controller is far less comfortable than it had been when I first picked it up almost 20 years ago (go figure). Most of this has to do with the triggers and analog stick.

Despite the additional input lag, the Pro controller is much easier to play on for long periods of time. The main issue had been that how I short hop is a sliding-off motion on the X-button on the GC controller. Yeah, the buttons on the Pro controller are all digital, but the lack of a distinct edge, combined with the smaller size of the face buttons makes my SH inconsistent. I've preferred the GC controller for tournament play because of that.

Now that the SH-macro exists, I bind two face buttons to jump, and now I have an extremely consistent way to empty SH/RAR, and so on.

It makes it way more feasible to actually practice, say, Falco online, because mis-inputting full hop rather than short hop is bad news for everything. And it lets me use the Pro controller, which spares my hands cramping up.

Yeah I definitely agree with this but that’s why I was thinking it’s someone like Marth who is good who Lucina is completely overshadowing right now. I mean I don’t know usage stats but Marth has got to be in the bottom half right now especially in Elite if people are following the “Lucina is better” trend. That was just one of my guesses though, I could be off base. It could be a character like Duckhunt too

The irony that Marth is now overshadowed by Lucina is so thick it's actually choking me.

Zelda is hardly the worst offender of being boosted by laggy online environments. Take any character with a projectile camping under the platform of a Battlefield-style stage and you've got a recipe for misery. DeDeDe Gordos immediately come to mind.

I mean, yeah, which again, is why Arena's are God's Plan.

 

[DJ3DS]

I mean everyone’s perceptions are skewed, but 6 Lucas mains in a 25 man tourney? That’s ridiculous. Not that Lucas is a bad character, I think he’s good but that’s a fair bit of over representation. If it was say 6 Lucina’s or Snake’s or Cloud’s or hell even Ness’s that would make more sense to me based on their early tourney results but I guess Lucas is just popular in your region

The UK as a whole sees more people playing Wolf and Palutena (though our best player is a Dedede, I believe). My specific local is an odd one: we have 6 Lucases, no Snakes, and every Ultimate bracket to date has been won by a ROB (and not all the same player). I might go through and tabulate everyone's characters to get a clearer picture of our scene.

Until then, I'm going to open up a more relevant debate - namely Lucas. I am actually of the opinion that he isn't a great character - I don't understand how he kills outside of edgeguards or very high percent throws, and the former is quite difficult against characters with nonlinear recoveries. His neutral also feels somewhat undertuned compared to a lot of characters. I'd put him in the bottom half of the cast at least.

 

[bc1910]

The UK as a whole sees more people playing Wolf and Palutena (though our best player is a Dedede, I believe). My specific local is an odd one: we have 6 Lucases, no Snakes, and every Ultimate bracket to date has been won by a ROB (and not all the same player). I might go through and tabulate everyone's characters to get a clearer picture of our scene.

Until then, I'm going to open up a more relevant debate - namely Lucas. I am actually of the opinion that he isn't a great character - I don't understand how he kills outside of edgeguards or very high percent throws, and the former is quite difficult against characters with nonlinear recoveries. His neutral also feels somewhat undertuned compared to a lot of characters. I'd put him in the bottom half of the cast at least.

I thought our best player was Lucretio (ROB), I could be wrong of course. Who’s the D3? Is it the winner of the DBZ in January? I didn’t recognise the name.

Regarding Lucas he’s a weird one for me as well. He has good buttons and ledge trapping, plus Dsmash can nail certain recoveries like Wolf’s before they even snap to the ledge. Once you get over the PK Freeze fear factor though, the cracks in his edgeguarding and neutral begin to show (PK Freeze is wacky and kills dumb early but it isn’t something you need to be getting hit by). He does struggle to kill and his range is lacklustre on his best buttons.

 

[DJ3DS]

I thought our best player was Lucretio (ROB), I could be wrong of course. Who’s the D3? Is it the winner of the DBZ in January? I didn’t recognise the name.

Regarding Lucas he’s a weird one for me as well. He has good buttons and ledge trapping, plus Dsmash can nail certain recoveries like Wolf’s before they even snap to the ledge. Once you get over the PK Freeze fear factor though, the cracks in his edgeguarding and neutral begin to show (PK Freeze is wacky and kills dumb early but it isn’t something you need to be getting hit by). He does struggle to kill and his range is lacklustre on his best buttons.

Yeah, I know Lucretio - we actually played just yesterday as he attends all of our locals (and is the reason ROB has won all the singles brackets; I usually place top 3 in singles and have won the squad strike and doubles brackets). The player I was referring to was Peli, who is winning larger tournaments like DBZ and is the one the UK discord is trying to crowdfund to get to Frostbite.

 

[MG_3989]

The UK as a whole sees more people playing Wolf and Palutena (though our best player is a Dedede, I believe). My specific local is an odd one: we have 6 Lucases, no Snakes, and every Ultimate bracket to date has been won by a ROB (and not all the same player). I might go through and tabulate everyone's characters to get a clearer picture of our scene.

Until then, I'm going to open up a more relevant debate - namely Lucas. I am actually of the opinion that he isn't a great character - I don't understand how he kills outside of edgeguards or very high percent throws, and the former is quite difficult against characters with nonlinear recoveries. His neutral also feels somewhat undertuned compared to a lot of characters. I'd put him in the bottom half of the cast at least.

I think Luca’s has decent smashes and disjointed aerials and his PK Frost edgeguard gives him a pretty consistent tool to kill early. I get what you say about him feeling undertuned though and his kit isn’t really cohesive. His grab game especially feels lackluster for a character that is suppsosed to be a pseudo grappler. His neutral is difficult to play but PK Fire is a strong tool. He can’t use PSI Magnet for mixups and spacing like a shine the way Ness can, his grabs and aerials are obviously worse, his PKT is worse, and his neutral and buttons aren’t nearly as good. I think he’s probably dead mid-tier

I also think he’s outclassed by Ness in every way (They’re completely different characters that don’t play the same way so I don’t know how apt the comparison even is)

 

[DJ3DS]

I think Luca’s has decent smashes and disjointed aerials and his PK Frost edgeguard gives him a pretty consistent tool to kill early. I get what you say about him feeling undertuned though and his kit isn’t really cohesive. His grab game especially feels undertuned. I think he’s probably dead mid-tier

I also think he’s outclassed by Ness in every way (They’re completely different characters that don’t play the same way so I don’t know how apt the comparison even is)

I think Lucas has one good smash - his side smash - and the others are comparatively poor. Both are very strong but also incredibly reactable. PK Freeze is strong versus certain recoveries but against many it's sorely lacking.

I do agree with your Ness comparison for most things - Ness has more useful tools in neutral, stronger edgeguarding, much better grab and aerial game, and better kill options thanks to his better smashes, throws and aerials - except for recovery. If I'm a stock up against Ness and waste his double jump it's game over, because even if I mess up the edgeguard and get hit it is halving his distance anyway. I find Lucas survives a fair bit longer in general, and can afford to be more creative offstage thanks to his substantially better PK Thunder 2.

 

[MG_3989]

I think Lucas has one good smash - his side smash - and the others are comparatively poor. Both are very strong but also incredibly reactable. PK Freeze is strong versus certain recoveries but against many it's sorely lacking.

I do agree with your Ness comparison for most things - Ness has more useful tools in neutral, stronger edgeguarding, much better grab and aerial game, and better kill options thanks to his better smashes, throws and aerials - except for recovery. If I'm a stock up against Ness and waste his double jump it's game over, because even if I mess up the edgeguard and get hit it is halving his distance anyway. I find Lucas survives a fair bit longer in general, and can afford to be more creative offstage thanks to his substantially better PK Thunder 2.

His recovery is the one thing he has going over Ness which is why it’s extremely important not to waste your double jump and airdodge and use your PSI Magnet wisely for spacing and mixups on recovery. I can stay alive with Ness for a while and I think his positives outweigh his negatives and he has a cohesive kit and he’s a high tier this game but that’s a different discussion. You just have to be really careful with Ness and control the tempo of the game for as long as you can which he’s good at doing. If you watch top Ness players they’re not dropping stocks early or getting gimped nearly as much as you would think. They’re actually going further off stage than ever. That said it is still a weakness and probably his biggest weakness. I do wish Ness had PK Freeze over PK Flash though

With Lucas his side Smash is quick and his downsmash can be nice at the edge. His up smash works for hard hard reads but like I said he doesnt feel like a very cohesive character to me. His PKT2 (I don’t think I’d say it’s a better move in general though) is better than Ness’s as a recovery and he has his grapple, but in every other way I think Ness is the better choice

Another thing I’ve been thinking about is that I’m still confused they gave Samus a buff that they didn’t give Dark Samus with no compensation. Are they planning on individually buffing Dark Samus next patch?

 

[The_Bookworm]

I thought our best player was Lucretio (ROB), I could be wrong of course. Who’s the D3? Is it the winner of the DBZ in January? I didn’t recognise the name.

Regarding Lucas he’s a weird one for me as well. He has good buttons and ledge trapping, plus Dsmash can nail certain recoveries like Wolf’s before they even snap to the ledge. Once you get over the PK Freeze fear factor though, the cracks in his edgeguarding and neutral begin to show (PK Freeze is wacky and kills dumb early but it isn’t something you need to be getting hit by). He does struggle to kill and his range is lacklustre on his best buttons.

I think Lucas has one good smash - his side smash - and the others are comparatively poor. Both are very strong but also incredibly reactable. PK Freeze is strong versus certain recoveries but against many it's sorely lacking.

I do agree with your Ness comparison for most things - Ness has more useful tools in neutral, stronger edgeguarding, much better grab and aerial game, and better kill options thanks to his better smashes, throws and aerials - except for recovery. If I'm a stock up against Ness and waste his double jump it's game over, because even if I mess up the edgeguard and get hit it is halving his distance anyway. I find Lucas survives a fair bit longer in general, and can afford to be more creative offstage thanks to his substantially better PK Thunder 2.

Feel the same. I love how he feels in comparison to SSB4, but I noticed the things you noticed. He does feel lacking, especially in comparison to other characters with his character archetype. I feel like he is kind of forced into a different playstyle in comparison to other brawler-esque fighters. If you want an aggressive character with his type of moveset, choose instead, who has better approaching moves in general, better KO power, still great edgeguarding and damage output, and a faster, more flexible projectile. The only areas the doctor doesn't have over Lucas is slightly worse mobility and worse recovery, but that is it. is also just straight up a better version of Lucas, outside of recovery.


That being said, players like Dabuz suggests that Lucas is kind of a boxing-chip away character, who utilizes his really good buttons to chip away the opponents heath, then use a finisher. Or at least that is what I think they said. However, this type of playstyle doesn't really work well in Ultimate's engine, especially considering that most of Lucas' good buttons suffer from mediocre reach, hard to land (PK Freeze), being very position and timing heavy to reap the benefits (down air and tether attack), or all the above. I feel like the presence of a good Chrom player singlehandely neuters that playstyle.

Another thing I’ve been thinking about is that I’m still confused they gave Samus a buff that they didn’t give Dark Samus with no compensation. Are they planning on individually buffing Dark Samus next patch?

DSamus actually got the same Missile buff. The devs simply forgot to list that change to DSamus as well.

 

[PK Bash]

gets harassed by YL's things, he can't absorb arrows or boomerang and soft tossed bombs bounce off magnet. He also harasses YL hard with his BS. At the end of the day, Ness hits harder. Bthrow is an amazing kill option and he has several other handy moves that finish YL off faster than YL finishes Ness.
-1.

My apologies for yet another Ness post in this thread. Can Ness do what he can do in the Toon Link matchup and catch bombs, z-drop them and immediately Magnet to detonate them and heal?
Tink's detonate when they hit the floor like this which is why this worked in 4, but I wondered if the Magnet hitbox (f7 like the absorb) would detonate Young Link's bomb in this manner (might not even have to z-drop?). I can't test this myself unfortunately.

The UK as a whole sees more people playing Wolf and Palutena (though our best player is a Dedede, I believe). My specific local is an odd one: we have 6 Lucases, no Snakes, and every Ultimate bracket to date has been won by a ROB (and not all the same player). I might go through and tabulate everyone's characters to get a clearer picture of our scene.

Until then, I'm going to open up a more relevant debate - namely Lucas. I am actually of the opinion that he isn't a great character - I don't understand how he kills outside of edgeguards or very high percent throws, and the former is quite difficult against characters with nonlinear recoveries. His neutral also feels somewhat undertuned compared to a lot of characters. I'd put him in the bottom half of the cast at least.

Jesus, do you mind me asking what region this was? I didn't know we had six Lucas players across the entire UK. (I've got all the Snakes btw, feel free to take some)
I agree about Lucas. Entire gameplan is horizontal spacing, which in this game of swords and Belmonts and others is pretty underwhelming. His reward for winning neutral was completely gutted. He's definitely more akin in playstyle to Brawl Lucas, which is OK but it doesn't work great in this game.
The changes to up air were nice, as it does allow Lucas to somewhat fight on a plane that isn't directly horizontal. It's just a shame it's quite weak. Otherwise, you're stuck playing a horizontal game in Ultimate, where everyone has a three frame jumpsquat and can just move off that plane with zero effort. Or, in the case of a lot of the better characters, just beat you at your own game.
Attacking from high angles is good in this game. Fox, Wolf and Inkling are some obvious examples. Lucas can struggle to defend against that kind of approach due to how horizontally focused his kit is. (give me a Palutena up smash, or some kind of workable up smash at all, please)
PK Freeze is very overhyped.
Lots of flaws with him I think.

The game's not good to him. His zone control is just too narrow and with little else to use, I don't see much going for him. Far too much effort for what you get.

Here's hoping for six breakout Lucas players or something.

edit: can we stop comparing Lucas to Ness like this please, I swear it ages me by 20 years every time I see it

 

[MG_3989]

edit: can we stop comparing Lucas to Ness like this please, I swear it ages me by 20 years every time I see it

I’m down with this, the comparison doesn’t even make sense because they don’t play like each other at all. They’re completely different characters with different play styles who share a few moves and are just from the same game series

It’s just an old habit but I understand it’s a useless comparison because they’re not even the same character archetype

 

[DJ3DS]

Jesus, do you mind me asking what region this was?

Midlands. We've had three consistent Lucas players for a while now, but had a sudden influx this year for reasons unknown.

 

[Rizen]

My apologies for yet another Ness post in this thread. Can Ness do what he can do in the Toon Link matchup and catch bombs, z-drop them and immediately Magnet to detonate them and heal?
Tink's detonate when they hit the floor like this which is why this worked in 4, but I wondered if the Magnet hitbox (f7 like the absorb) would detonate Young Link's bomb in this manner (might not even have to z-drop?). I can't test this myself unfortunately.

TL's bombs always explode when they hit the ground. YL's have some sort of momentum formula that requires them to be moving fast enough so Z dropping close to the ground won't detonate one. If Ness catches one he can just hold it and magnet so it's not a problem for him.

 

[MG_3989]

Is it just me or is there zero Bayonetta and Shiek representation online (the three or four I have played have been awful)? I wonder why that is? It’s not like either of them are terrible characters. Yeah they have flaws but they can definitely win online and do alright if people mained them. I guess their nerfs just completely put everyone off of them. I wonder if it’ll change in time. Like I see more Little Mac and even Kirby sometimes in Elite Smash

 

[Ziodyne 21]

Snce there is no Genesis 6 Discussion topic (yet) I just need to post

is looking more and more ridiculous every tournament .

vs looks like a nightmare MU for the Kong

MKLeo still making. look more busted becauae he is MKLeo

has trouble killing is a meme that needs to die. Zackray set vs Mage's he mamaged to take a stock with b-air like at 80% and ledgetrap kills with f-tilt and d-smash from for days from Wolf players

 

[Mister M]

pk freeze was over hyped. I was on that train and hopped off very silently when I discovered that lucas' pk thunder is a faaaaaar better edge guarding tool

 

[MG_3989]

pk freeze was over hyped. I was on that train and hopped off very silently when I discovered that lucas' pk thunder is a faaaaaar better edge guarding tool

I love when a Lucas player spams PK Freeze against me at the edge and I just eat it with PSI Magnet over and over again. It’s like their muscle memory doesn’t let them stop doing the move even though they’re getting punished for it. Honestly I’d probably still take it over PK Pulse but PK Pulse does have its niche uses

I know how good Ness’s PK Thunder is as an edgeguarding and juggle tool(straight ridiculous with those tail gimps and juggles). Idk if Luca’s is as good

Ness’s PK Thunder has won me wayyyyy too many games

 

[Luigifan18]

I love when a Lucas player spams PK Freeze against me at the edge and I just eat it with PSI Magnet over and over again. It’s like their muscle memory doesn’t let them stop doing the move even though they’re getting punished for it. Honestly I’d probably still take it over PK Pulse but PK Pulse does have its niche uses

I know how good Ness’s PK Thunder is as an edgeguarding and juggle tool(straight ridiculous with those tail gimps and juggles). Idk if Luca’s is as good

Ness’s PK Thunder has won me wayyyyy too many games

Part of why I prefer Ness's PK Thunder is that it stops when it hits a character, returning control to Ness. Admittedly, this quick stop is more valuable in FFA's, where there are more people around to punish openings, but even in 1v1, it can be more useful to get back to controlling your character quickly.

 

[MG_3989]

Part of why I prefer Ness's PK Thunder is that it stops when it hits a character, returning control to Ness. Admittedly, this quick stop is more valuable in FFA's, where there are more people around to punish openings, but even in 1v1, it can be more useful to get back to controlling your character quickly.

Nah the quick stop is valuable in 1v1’s too but it’s a double edged sword. You can get gimped that way too

But you can hang on the ledge and pkt into the ground and then grab ledge and the fact that it stops when you’re juggling makes it easier to juggle to higher percentages sending a bunch of PKT’s out at various angles and such. Ness’s PKT is great it’s just not the best recovery option. For edgeguarding, gimping, and even out zoning in certain matchups on certain stages it’s great tho. Plus you can always hit them with a quick surprise PKT2. It’s the move that ties Ness’s kit together

PKT usage it what separates good Ness players from bad Ness players (along with recovery mixups and stuff) but it’s the first thing to master as a Ness main

 

[Nobie]

Thought: If the balance team actually beloved K. Rool was a problem, they would've nerfed his armor, as that's what gives new players the most grief. Instead, they didn't touch the armor one bit, and just gave him a couple of vulnerabilities during his other moves.

 

[MG_3989]

Thought: If the balance team actually beloved K. Rool was a problem, they would've nerfed his armor, as that's what gives new players the most grief. Instead, they didn't touch the armor one bit, and just gave him a couple of vulnerabilities during his other moves.

That’s what I was thinking. An armor nerf would’ve straight up killed the character. The nerfs they gave him were relatively minor and probably just fan service

 

[Rizen]

Nerfing belly armor would have defeated the purpose of KRool's character.

Qs for the thread: what are your character's best and worst stages and why?

 

[MG_3989]

Nerfing belly armor would have defeated the purpose of KRool's character.

Qs for the thread: what are your character's best and worst stages and why?

FD, Smashville, TnC, Yoshi’s Story, and Yoshi’s Island

Ness likes flat stages and stages he can dangle his yo-yo off of

Castle Siege is a big no because of the blind spot recovering

 

[Rizen]

Castle Siege is a big no because of the blind spot recovering

What do you mean?

 

[MG_3989]

What do you mean?

On the lower right corner of castle siege there’s a spot where the background overshadows your character and you can’t see them recovering which is a big no no for Ness

Sometimes Warioware is good for Ness and sometimes it isn’t. I usually don’t like it because against heavies Ness gets suffocated on it but he can also kill really early on it

 

[Shaya]

https://smashboards.com/threads/genesis-6-mega-thread.474931/

 

[Fastblade5035]

Nerfing belly armor would have defeated the purpose of KRool's character.

Qs for the thread: what are your character's best and worst stages and why?

I know its like, a meme for Links to just camp on FD because of For Glory but I really think Link loves Battlefield the most or maybe its just me thats 100% possible and honestly even more likely than my assessment being right
Link still has room to use his tools and the shorter space means he can balance his zoning and his sword better, as opposed to relying on iffy projectile camping on FDs or having no room to breathe at all like on Warioware or maybe Yoshi story brawl.
The reason I think the balance of space is important is because Link has many great moves on both ends of the long and short range spectrum and BF let's him take advantage of both. Platforms are amazing for any swordie IMO and it's even better for Link who has his giant up smash to catch landings, up tilt, up air, and platforms open up more bomb placements and boomerang angles. He can control BF very well whereas I think on FD he just kind of keeps his bubble and if you get in, you either demolish him or get Fsmashed and the whole thing repeats.

Worst stage, again maybe Warioware against people who outframe him and outspeed him, or FD because his moves become far more predictable and straightforward there. Again, I'm probably way off but that's just how I've felt.

EDIT: Forgot to mention I think landing is way better on BF for Link as well, big advantage for him. He can weave through platforms with dair and bombs to cover himself whereas stages with different layouts/no platforms severely hamper where he can go.

 

[Luigifan18]

FD, Smashville, TnC, Yoshi’s Story, and Yoshi’s Island

Ness likes flat stages and stages he can dangle his yo-yo off of

Castle Siege is a big no because of the blind spot recovering

I just think of platforms and how they interact with PK Thunder. He can't manually cancel it like Snake can with his Remote Missile, so if the opponent gets past his projectile, Ness needs to steer it into a platform pronto to avoid punishment. However, more platforms being around makes it more difficult to chase foes with the projectile or hit Ness himself with it to utilize PKT2.

As you may have noticed, I'm most likely at a lower level of play than you, which is why my perspective on Ness's strengths is so different from yours...

 

[MG_3989]

I just think of platforms and how they interact with PK Thunder. He can't manually cancel it like Snake can with his Remote Missile, so if the opponent gets past his projectile, Ness needs to steer it into a platform pronto to avoid punishment. However, more platforms being around makes it more difficult to chase foes with the projectile or hit Ness himself with it to utilize PKT2.

As you may have noticed, I'm most likely at a lower level of play than you, which is why my perspective on Ness's strengths is so different from yours...

I just think battlefield and platform stages give other characters advantages especially sword characters. It’s also a little bit harder to navigate PK Thunder. Your uair is good too though so Battlefield isn’t awful but I prefer flatter stages

 

[Terotrous]

Samus's worst stage is clearly Castle Siege, due to the slope. From the left side, Charge Shot and Power Missile will both hit the slope, and from the right side they will whiff short characters. It's also a generally small stage which gives less space to zone. This can also happen on Lylat, but only from the very edge, so it's not as big of a deal (well, on Hazards on Lylat it can happen from more locations, but no one plays hazards on).

 

[Megamang]

Are people running castle siege in your region? I personally dislike the stage, both due to a bad experience at my first 4 tournament (diddy >=[ ) but I don't really see it much. Warioware is a good change of pace for layout but the blastzones can be a bit ridiculous, much like 4 balance hinged on vertical height, the BKB/KBG split gives you some wonky kills at warioware.

Greninja used to despise battlefield, now it is a great stage for him IMO. Usmash actually hitting with more than the weakest hit is great, people under platforms can be fair pressured, uair chains are great, if the enemy doesn't have good options greninja himself is pretty scary under a platform, especially with the aforementioned functioning usmash. It can be hard to nair the opponent near the rear of the under platform area but dashgrab and dash attack make a strong mixup core, though that is everywhere.


I don't really dislike any stages with him. Its more preference based on what the enemy likes, I still don't love fighting swordies at battlefield but it honestly isn't that bad.


---

Does anyone have a link for the shield stun calculator?

 

[Today's Tom Sawyer]

Is it just me or is there zero Bayonetta and Shiek representation online (the three or four I have played have been awful)? I wonder why that is? It’s not like either of them are terrible characters. Yeah they have flaws but they can definitely win online and do alright if people mained them. I guess their nerfs just completely put everyone off of them. I wonder if it’ll change in time. Like I see more Little Mac and even Kirby sometimes in Elite Smash

I would main these characters in a heartbeat if they were even slightly more consistent.
Miss your ladder at 85 as Bayonetta? Good luck fishing for that back air or smash until 150.
Don't hit that Bouncing Fish at 95? Have fun watching the enemy percent gauge go to maroon. Sheik is easily the best answer for why ledge trumping erodes synapses.
As it stands now, there is little objective reason to play them over Pichu/ZSS/Peach/Inkling/Fox/Greninja. The execution burden is simply too high for too little reward compared to some of the other rushdown characters.
Keeping them in the pocket in the hopes that their metas develop and/or they receive some buffs, because IMO they are the most hype characters in the game and I play SSB to be challenged.

 

[MG_3989]

I would main these characters in a heartbeat if they were even slightly more consistent.
Miss your ladder at 85 as Bayonetta? Good luck fishing for that back air or smash until 150.
Don't hit that Bouncing Fish at 95? Have fun watching the enemy percent gauge go to maroon. Sheik is easily the best answer for why ledge trumping erodes synapses.
As it stands now, there is little objective reason to play them over Pichu/ZSS/Peach/Inkling/Fox/Greninja. The execution burden is simply too high for too little reward compared to some of the other rushdown characters.
Keeping them in the pocket in the hopes that their metas develop and/or they receive some buffs, because IMO they are the most hype characters in the game and I play SSB to be challenged.

That makes sense, it sucks that these characters have such high skill output for such little reward. That’s why I was hoping they’d be buffed this patch because I think they’re cool characters. Obviously I don’t want a broken character like Smash 4 Bayonetta but at least make her a functional character. She’s cool and has a cool moveset