Official Competitive Character Impressions 2.0

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

What makes bayo a non functional character? I hear this get tossed around a lot but I don't really understand what is meant by it? Anyone want to explain it to me?

 

[Diddy Kong]

Bayonetta still works, her Smashes just got way more predictable and her ladders way less stressful to deal with. Also, most of us probably have tons of Bayo matchup experience, and that works against competitive Bayonetta's favor. I can't really tell much else. She's still rather good, but there's other characters who are simply better.

 

[Iridium]

So, Tea just won Sumabato SP 2, and therefore is the winner of the first PGR event. Results are here.

It's only a C-tier based on the algorithm, but this is a significant win for Pac-Man as of right now.

 

[Frihetsanka]

So, Tea just won Sumabato SP 2, and therefore is the winner of the first PGR event. Results are here.

It's only a C-tier based on the algorithm, but this is a significant win for Pac-Man as of right now.

Still a good win, but probably helped that many of the best Japanese players are in the US right now. Zaki with Dedede getting 2nd place is also pretty notable. Was this on 2.0.0 or 1.2.1?

 

[Iridium]

Still a good win, but probably helped that many of the best Japanese players are in the US right now. Zaki with Dedede getting 2nd place is also pretty notable. Was this on 2.0.0 or 1.2.1?

Yeah, some top players did drop out too. It was 2.0.0.

 

[Rizen]

So T's going full now? This could be a big results boost for Link and drop for YL. T's possibly the best player of both.

Here's a video explaining all the patch changes:

I was wrong about Link's arrows. They go farther, not slower.

 

[Tri Knight]

So T's going full now? This could be a big results boost for Link and drop for YL. T's possibly the best player of both.

Here's a video explaining all the patch changes:

I was wrong about Link's arrows. They go farther, not slower.

I wasn't aware of T's switch to Adult Link either. Link's getting a lot of backup from great players. I really wasnt expecting that turnout.

 

[The_Bookworm]

Bayonetta still works, her Smashes just got way more predictable and her ladders way less stressful to deal with. Also, most of us probably have tons of Bayo matchup experience, and that works against competitive Bayonetta's favor. I can't really tell much else. She's still rather good, but there's other characters who are simply better.

She is not good anymore. Her latter combos (or combos in general) straight up don't work with proper DI. Her approach and ability to apply pressure pretty much got shot in the transition, whether it is from the drastic nerf to her special moves, the general speed/frame data buff from everyone else, or the big decrease in her hitboxes exposing her rather lackluster frame data. Her recovery is also more exploitable because up B doesn't snap the ledge. Now we are left with a character that could potentially rack up damage, but even when you do get that threshold, she now struggles to kill, and relies on hard reads to net KOs.

The main strengths she still has is that she still has good edgeguarding and her damage output is still pretty good, but both of these strengths are either able to be worked-around when you learn how to fight the new Bayonetta, or everyone else simply has those strengths while not possessing her inconsistencies/weaknesses.

I think the Bayo players honestly has one over everyone else and not the other way around. I feel like she is a character that abuses the opponent's lack of knowledge on how to deal with the new Bayonetta, or simply the opponent's lack of skill. That is why I think she will continue to do somewhat well in locals, and also the main reason why she has at least some success so far this early in the meta, but that is it. The Bayo players also understand their character more than everyone else with their's (which is also the reason why there is only a few top Bayo players left lol).

I do think she might still be good in doubles. It is similar to Cloud in which some of her weaknesses are somewhat covered by having a teammate cover her.

 

[Rizen]

I found some high level plant footage:

Piranha Plant looks like a mediocre character boosted with good stats. Its big downside is poor mobility but it has good damage, weight and frame data to work with. Plant's specials all seem too slow for neutral and better in advantage. They hit hard when they do connect. Basically Plant's a meh character with good reward, kind of a pseudo-heavyweight. Maybe mid tier.

 

[ReVerbIsSuperb]

While we're on the topic, speaking of Bayonetta, really unfortunate to see just how badly the whole game transition controversy surrounding both the character and top players in general is starting to affect people like Tamim. He lost a lot earlier than expected/he would've hoped at Genesis 6; he seems really frustrated with his current gameplay and with Ultimate Bayo herself:

Lima on the other hand who is just as similarly frustrated with his character actually did manage to sneak into Top 64 albeit through the losers side. We'll see how much farther he can push past his limit though.

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[Nate1080]

I found some high level plant footage:

Piranha Plant looks like a mediocre character boosted with good stats. Its big downside is poor mobility but it has good damage, weight and frame data to work with. Plant's specials all seem too slow for neutral and better in advantage. They hit hard when they do connect. Basically Plant's a meh character with good reward, kind of a pseudo-heavyweight. Maybe mid tier.

Bottom of mid-tier tops, but most likely somewhere in low-tier tbh imo.

When plant droped a few pros were saying he’s low tier. I didn’t believe it at first, thinking he’s probably a mid tier character at best with his poor neutral, but after playing a couple more games, definitely low tier.


His Neutral is garbage. He has no good approach tools, and as I said a few days ago, he has to fish for openings into a damage, combos, etc. A bad neutral is terrible to have in a game where the neutral is pretty important.

His aerials don’t seem very good to just throw out in neutral due to the high amount of lag they have, situational at best (such as dair to usmash/neutral B). Terrible grab range, probably bottom 3, but definitely bottom 5 for grab range imo. Best poke is Ftilt, despite a frame 2 jab, but he’s barely fast enough to overcome the fact that both options ranges are pretty shallow; short jab and ftilt doesn’t make for a very good neutral by themselves.

He seems to only be really a monster in advantage, and even then I don’t think he’s the best character in advantage (despite his ridiculously good neutral B and kill options).

He’s fun to play though, and still technically functional, just not that good atm.

Edit: Plant reminds me of K Rool: a fun to use heavyweight, with powerful moves but is combo food with a poor neutral. Lol.

 

[Megamang]

No one is forcing you to play bayo. And I don't have to mention it, because in this thread we have talked tons about the unbalanced characteristics of the witch. Yea, playing a not-top character at top level is hard. How do you think Sinji felt? You aren't entitled to victory any more or less than anyone, and its funny how we see who cared about bayo and who wants to win. Which are both legitimate options, but the smash community has a bit of 'oh yea I happen to love that game' before they admit 'I like the way this character plays and haven't touched their source games'.


Killing people because they SDI'd well and got autolinked, and dying in neutral because you jabbed was worth complaining about. I'm glad we don't have to deal with that today, though I agree they were a bit heavy handed with bayo. Its hard to balance a character with that design, and you shouldn't expect anyone to have death ladders that start from moves that beat out swords head on.

 

[Frihetsanka]

No one is forcing you to play bayo. And I don't have to mention it, because in this thread we have talked tons about the unbalanced characteristics of the witch. Yea, playing a not-top character at top level is hard. How do you think Sinji felt? You aren't entitled to victory any more or less than anyone, and its funny how we see who cared about bayo and who wants to win.

Assuming you're directing this towards Tamim, I don't think that's fair, his tweets were more about how some people interact with Bayonetta players, even in Ultimate, and it's pretty obvious that there's been quite a bit of unwarranted harassment, especially since she's not even that good of a character in Ultimate. It's extremely scrubby behavior to harass players just for playing a character they don't like, even if that character happens to be Smash 4 Bayonetta.

 

[missingnomaster]

If Tamim is so upset about Bayonetta not being amazing, he could try his hand at Kirby or Bowser Jr to get a sense of perspective.

Plant definitely doesn't like approaching. It wants to make the opponent come to it, but with its specials being slow to come out, that can be easier said than done. Still, I don't want to rule it out, as I think there is a lot of potential for it in proper use of its specials. Down B working as a defensive option since you can tank a hit with the super armor and punish, Side B potentially racking up as much as Revenge Incineroar with the right setups, and the spike ball killing really early for a projectile that can cover a lot of different angles.

 

[Nate1080]

That’s why his neutral is so wonky/bad, his tools suggest that he should be approaching/pressuring, but his overall playstyle suggests that he wants people to come to him despite him being combo food and mediocre when pressured.

Down B doesn’t seem too good as a defensive option. Its too slow, reactable and punishable; its been like 2 days, people have already figured out how to play around it. Online. Let that sink in. Its purely good as an edgeguard and ledgetrap tool, sometimes okay for the random kill, but not good enough to throw out in neutral or as a defensive option too often.

 

[Frihetsanka]

If Tamim is so upset about Bayonetta not being amazing, he could try his hand at Kirby or Bowser Jr to get a sense of perspective.

I get the impression that he's not nearly as upset about Bayonetta as he is about people harassing him whatever he does. If he does well, it's because he plays Bayonetta, if he does poorly, well, they still harass him for that.

Piranha Plant seems pretty bad to me right now. Unless something sick is discovered I doubt that character will climb out of low tier.

 

[Megamang]

Assuming you're directing this towards Tamim, I don't think that's fair, his tweets were more about how some people interact with Bayonetta players, even in Ultimate, and it's pretty obvious that there's been quite a bit of unwarranted harassment, especially since she's not even that good of a character in Ultimate. It's extremely scrubby behavior to harass players just for playing a character they don't like, even if that character happens to be Smash 4 Bayonetta.

I admit im not totally up to date on the interactions, I just took that tweet at face value. It starts off with 'anyone who thinks bayonetta is fine as she is', which... all im saying is, she can be low tier and fine.


I agree harassing players for their choice is not ok, and something we shouldn't allow in the community.

 

[Kellojolly]

@Tamin I understand he's angry since Bayo was gutted. She needed nerfs but not to this degree. If anything, its not the fault of the player base but Nintendo for not being able to balance properly. I do wish him best of luck in the future since his Bayo is always great to watch.

Also what are everyone's thoughts on wolf's kill potential? I think I remember seeing some say he struggles to kill. I disagree. With his Bair and some of his smash attacks that come out very fast, he doesn't seem to struggle to kill at all. Wolf is amazing.

 

[Gearkeeper-8a]

@Tamin I understand he's angry since Bayo was gutted. She needed nerfs but not to this degree. If anything, its not the fault of the player base but Nintendo for not being able to balance properly. I do wish him best of luck in the future since his Bayo is always great to watch.

Also what are everyone's thoughts on wolf's kill potential? I think I remember seeing some say he struggles to kill. I disagree. With his Bair and some of his smash attacks that come out very fast, he doesn't seem to struggle to kill at all. Wolf is amazing.

Nah the playerbase wanted bayo to be gutted or atleast the moveset overhauled, if bayo was a top tier character in this game she would be the first character to be complained, and you would see endless memes and click-bait twitter videos about her.

 

[Rizen]

With his Bair and some of his smash attacks that come out very fast, he doesn't seem to struggle to kill at all. Wolf is amazing.

Bair's f13, Fsmash20, Usmash 13 and Dsmash 14. Those aren't fast. For comparison Lucina's Bair is f7 and Dsmash 6.

 

[Gleam]

I'd like to point out that when it comes to grab range, it's actually not that bad. It's honestly no worse than say Mario's grab. It's actually very average, some have even said slightly above average but an overall average grab that can look kind of sneaky due to the visual range. It's basically a move that reaches far more than you expect. Probably because while those are some stubby leaves, Plant does lean forward a bit when he grabs. On top of that, Plant has apparently some of the fastest grab animation in the game with less lag than most.

It's definitely a looks can be deceiving because I too thought Plant must have some poor grab range but when you test it out and you add in the quick frame data to it, it's fairly solid IMO.

 

[Mister M]

Most people agree that wolf's damage output and ability to control the pace of the match, compensate for the lack of kill set ups. He has several quick kill moves once the opponent is at 120ish% and decent ledge trapping. That's wolf. Everybody knows it.

Also I don't think this thread is the best setting to react to top player tweets. Especially when they are just venting about personal issues.

 

[Ziodyne 21]

Most people agree that wolf's damage output and ability to control the pace of the match, compensate for the lack of kill set ups. He has several quick kill moves once the opponent is at 120ish% and decent ledge trapping. That's wolf. Everybody knows it.

Also I don't think this thread is the best setting to react to top player tweets. Especially when they are just venting about personal issues.

Ok yeah Wolf might actually be top-tier despite my current misgivings. I mean even besides The possible new Smash Bros wunderkind Zackray , Wolf got numerous placings in the top64 as a main and even pocket character

 

[G. Stache]

Besides a rather limited recovery and alleged problems killing (which I still do not buy tbh), what are Wolf’s real weaknesses? I hear his strengths getting highlighted a whole lot and see his tournament success, but is there a reliable way to keep Wolf from comfortably initiating his game plan? And for those who know the character well, are there any characters that give Wolf a tough time in particular? The character seems very good right now so I’m interested if there’s any solid counterplay for him yet.

 

[bc1910]

Plant is honestly pretty cool.

Like yeah his approach sucks and he feels optionless in some situations particularly in the air and especially if he doesn't have the lead. That said he has a decent kit randomly peppered with really good moves (all specials, Ftilt, Uthrow, Dair would be if the sweetspot was bigger) and his edgeguarding is top tier whilst being tricky to edgeguard himself.

I agree with the general sentiment that he's probably not a top tier threat but I could definitely see him having value as a counterpick.

Nerfing belly armor would have defeated the purpose of KRool's character.

Qs for the thread: what are your character's best and worst stages and why?

For Greninja his mobility means he's not necessarily bad on any stage. Platforms don't screw him over like they used to now that Usmash actually hits through them (most of the time...) and his sharking is solid. His best stages are probably FD, Kalos and maybe TC since they allow him access to his most devastating dragdown Uair combos pretty consistently. Battlefield is pretty good for him with the triplat layout. His Uair chains are fantastic as well.

Greninja's worst stage IMO is Castle Seige. The slope just gets in the way and ****s up combos, the platforms are high enough to mess with Usmash and the small size doesn't allow Greninja to utilise his mobility. The slope messes with shurikens as well. Similarly, after the Hydro Pump cancel nerfs, Brawl Yoshi's is one of Greninja's worst stages because the inward slopes stop him from using shurikens from centre stage and seriously hamper his stage control. Neither of these stages are detrimental for Greninja (as mentioned above, characters with good mobility are pretty adaptable when it comes to stages) but they do make him work harder. Generally just stay away from slopes I guess.

Worth noting that Lylat was hands down Greninja's worst legal stage in S4 due to the tilting messing up shurikens and the platforms messing up Usmash. Now that the stage doesn't tilt in hazards off and Usmash usually works through the platforms, Lylat is a pretty good stage for Gren. The slopes don't hamper shuriken usage much since they're small and slope outward, allowing Greninja to control centre stage.

I would main these characters in a heartbeat if they were even slightly more consistent.
Miss your ladder at 85 as Bayonetta? Good luck fishing for that back air or smash until 150.
Don't hit that Bouncing Fish at 95? Have fun watching the enemy percent gauge go to maroon. Sheik is easily the best answer for why ledge trumping erodes synapses.
As it stands now, there is little objective reason to play them over Pichu/ZSS/Peach/Inkling/Fox/Greninja. The execution burden is simply too high for too little reward compared to some of the other rushdown characters.
Keeping them in the pocket in the hopes that their metas develop and/or they receive some buffs, because IMO they are the most hype characters in the game and I play SSB to be challenged.

ZSS isn't a rushdown character (although rising Fair does give her a good tool to use in that regard). Rushing with her is a good way to get smacked on your startup frames, and she's not that safe overall.

I would have said the same thing about Greninja and on paper he's not safe enough for rushdown either, but in practice rushing down with him has gone pretty well for me. You can see its effectiveness when Venia plays as well.

Besides a rather limited recovery and alleged problems killing (which I still do not buy tbh), what are Wolf’s real weaknesses? I hear his strengths getting highlighted a whole lot and see his tournament success, but is there a reliable way to keep Wolf from comfortably initiating his game plan? And for those who know the character well, are there any characters that give Wolf a tough time in particular? The character seems very good right now so I’m interested if there’s any solid counterplay for him yet.

Wolf's recovery is below average and he doesn't have many kill confirms. Not to say he's bad at killing since his killing buttons are really good and he will eventually nab you with Bthrow, but he can struggle to catch up a bit if the opponent has the lead.

I recently visited the Wolf discord and asked the same question. Pichu was highlighted as a tough MU, as were Marcina.

 

[Minordeth]

Bair's f13, Fsmash20, Usmash 13 and Dsmash 14. Those aren't fast. For comparison Lucina's Bair is f7 and Dsmash 6.

Yup. They are deceptively safe, though. Bair having an autocancel on Frame 18 is hilarious, when the active hitbox ends on frame 15.

Besides a rather limited recovery and alleged problems killing (which I still do not buy tbh), what are Wolf’s real weaknesses? I hear his strengths getting highlighted a whole lot and see his tournament success, but is there a reliable way to keep Wolf from comfortably initiating his game plan? And for those who know the character well, are there any characters that give Wolf a tough time in particular? The character seems very good right now so I’m interested if there’s any solid counterplay for him yet.

Wolf isn't a fan of characters that can counter his neutral-setting ability, or don't have to play his game. Not many characters can do that reliably.

The most commonly cited characters are the Rats and Marcina. I've seen Palutena, Ike, and Ridley cited as well. From the Wolf Discord and personal experience, I'd theorycraft something like:

- Pikachu will always suck the most. He can use Quick Attack to punish predictable Blaster attempts, has a better OOS game than Wolf, can zone-break fairly well, and can generally reliably wreck Wolf offstage.

- Pichu sucks for similar reasons, but sucks less because he has to avoid stray hits like the plague, Agility has no hitbox, and his neutral is slightly less effective than Pikachu's.

- Marcina will probably end up being even, if only because their gameplan is more susceptible to parrying, and their ability to land will always be an Achille's heel against Wolf (and everyone else). Blaster can also play a more effective role than versus the Rats.

- Palu will likely become even, but right now it sucks because Nair beats Wolf's Nair, she can keep Wolf out rather well, and she doesn't have to care about Blaster as much as Marcina. She doesn't have the CQC to reliably deal with Wolf once he gets in, though, and she still is susceptible to Blaster camping, even with Reflect.

- Ike is probably even. Blaster is money, and as good as Ike's Nair and what-not are, the more Wolf plays anti-air, Shoto-style neutral, and goes for stuffing jump-ins, he brings it closer to even.

- Ridley may be a losing MU, especially given his buttons are made out of disjoints, he doesn't care too much about Blaster, and his jab is frame 4. He doesn't have to commit to edge-guarding, and Plasma Breath isn't reflected, but rather just eaten. Wolf can still get in and wreck face, of course, but Ridley's Fair is hard to deal with, as parrying it is nothing like parrying Marcina Fair or Ike Nair.

Hot Take Zone:

Wolf goes even or beats Fox, but goes even or loses to Falco.

 

[Nobie]

Fun thing: Zackray was a guest in a video discussing how to beat Wolf, with much of the video focusing on getting around Blaster.

I can't remember everything he said, but a few key points:

• Blaster's projectile's damage goes from weak to strong to medium as it travels, so you want to avoid being in that sweet spot.
• Jumping is probably the best way to avoid the shots, but you can also shield (NOT parry) them to stale them out.
• Wolf feels most uncomfortable at a certain distance from his opponent, about two or three characters apart (?), because his ground speed is fairly slow and his high air speed doesn't quite make up for it. Think of it as being almost but not quite at mid-range but still counting as close range perhaps.
• Wolf really wants to connect with landing aerials, so make sure to shield his aerials.
• He himself has trouble against shield pressure, as his OoS options are not great. Up smash is fast, but its horizontal range is short.
• Do not jump carelessly against Wolf.
• Bair is Wolf's go-to kill move, but it also has significant landing lag compared to his other aerials.
• Wolf's biggest weakness (of course) is his recovery. You need to apply pressure during edge guarding.
• You have to know the ideal distance for Side B so you can force him away from it when recovering.
• Up B kills so watch the heck out.

 

[NuzTheMonkey]

Can someone give me a proper explanation on what the Palu nerfs do? I only hear a lot of doomsaying and no credible info.

 

[JustCallMeJon]

Top 8 on Genesis 6 if people want to see it:
Winners:
* VoiD v Zackray
* Samsora v MKLeo

Losers:
* ESAM v Light
* Dabuz v Cosmos

 

[Envoy of Chaos]

I don't buy Wolf's killing issues either. He doesn't have direct setups into many things especially after percentages ranges are passed but when everything kills and blaster makes you do what he wants it's just not an issue against a majority of characters. That bair might be slow but it's incredibly strong it's not something you want to challenge especially with Wolf's airspeed letting him quickly get to where we wants to place his bair. (His air accel ain't bad either). Even when Wolf is on ledge if you don't cover his ledge jump right you risk getting hit by that Bair and dying at 70 at the ledge.

His smashes may start slow but they also aren't moves you want to challenge, especially Fsmash another high power move with little cool down. You have to respect it. He also has up tilt, Ftilt at ledge,up air when his opponent is above him and eventually back throw once he's got his opponent scared in shield enough.

If your character struggles to deal with Blaster and can't make Wolf act first then I can see how the character can be straight dominating.

 

[The_Bookworm]

Can someone give me a proper explanation on what the Palu nerfs do? I only hear a lot of doomsaying and no credible info.

The only real thing that happened is that the hitlag on the Palu n-air has been shortened, so the move, when it hits someone, doesn't take forever to complete. It doesn't harm it's combo game at all, it just simply speeds the combos.

Similarly, the Lucario AS charge hitlag change, in reality, didn't really harm it's combo game. The change does require a little bit of adjusting to get used to, but followups are still possible. However, after ANTi's kinda eh performance in Genesis 6 with pre-patch Lucario, it does seem like this will shaken his confidence in his Lucario.

 

[NotLiquid]

Think it goes without saying that Genesis 6 was going to be the shape of the meta to come, especially with 2.1k entrants, and I'm pretty amazed at the character spread this far up. Feels it goes without saying that every character that made it to top 8 is a winner this weekend (well, we already knew how powerful Peach was so I don't think that needed validation).

: I'm half tempted to already eat crow on thinking Pikachu might be better than Pichu, though honestly ESAM has been a beast in bracket overall so jury's still out. Whether VoiD just outplayed him or Pichu just has an easier time is left to see.

: Cosmos impressed me a lot this tournament, especially given his lukewarm Doubles performance. While this is obviously before we see the full effects of the roller changes take place (which he's gotten a lot of mileage out of this tournament) I think he's sent a strong message that this character has every intention on holding onto her top tier contender spot, especially after her results started to waver a little bit after the initial hype. She very much feels like the new Diddy Kong with her ability to dictate the pace of the game and get monstrous rewards off of winning neutral, and Cosmos actually managed to make the swordie matchup look like swiss cheese at times. Problem matchups he had to deal with were Peach and Olimar, characters who are also top tier contenders, and he held up against them admirably.

: Fox being underrated post-Melee continues to be a trend, especially once Wolf got all the eyes on him once it was clear he was much better than people thought, but both Larry and Light were no slouches. He is the most glass cannon he's ever been, insane damage and killing potential for puny survivability. Overall a good time to be a space animal (unless your name is Falco). Probably best friends with Pichu in the meta right now for as to why you would pick him over his counterpart.

: Late in bracket it was becoming pretty obvious that both Nairo and Dabuz were unable to keep her around for every matchup. I think she's still a really good character, but the prospect of her being a viable solo main seems to be waning ever so slightly. Seeing her develop has been pretty interesting, but I can see her being the only top 8 character here who might not make it on her own (well, maybe Ike as well depending on if the NAir stuff gets patched out or gets more developed counterplay).

: Without a doubt the biggest winner of the entire tournament. The hype for his return in Ultimate delivered. Zackray has also proven himself to be more than just a Japanese wonder. Rumors of Wolf's killing struggles have been greatly exaggerated, despite his lack of setups it doesn't matter when just about everything he can throw out kills you. I expect a lot of people are going to pick up Wolf after this tournament. I'm honestly surprised Anti hadn't committed to maining him earlier over Lucario, he feels like a character that would be right up his alley.

Some thoughts on other characters that didn't make top 8.
: I'm really not sure what to make of her now. I think Zack has continued to show that she's still a semi-notable threat, but with Tamim going out early, Lima hanging on a wing and a prayer from loser's side in Top 64, and Zack being forced to pick up the princesses as a secondary to even stand a chance in Top 16, I have to imagine this character's reached a pretty visible ceiling pretty quickly. Tamim's Twitter rant... wasn't pretty. This is a flawed character stuck in an extremely sensitive spot, and there's never going to be a way around it.
: Going into this tournament Wario felt completely unassailable. With Tweek being the favorite for best of the west, as well as Glutonny's warpath in Europe, I was a pretty firm believer that this character was in the best spot he's ever been. I still believe that to some extent, but if Inkling is the character that had some lost faith restored I think Wario had the opposite effect this tournament. Playing this character is more tough work than it looks, waft is still a volatile x-factor that feels like he desperately needs, and a few of his Smash 4 issues feel like little more than bandaid solutions going into Ultimate, though there's not much wrong with that seeing how I reckon he'll likely end up about the same spot in Ultimate as he was in Brawl.
: Don't really have anything to say other than it being extremely poignant that a Mega Man player got this far in bracket and even got the upset over one of this tournament's star players right before he'll inevitably get bodied with one incredibly sinister nerf. I hope there's still a place for him in 2.0.0.
: Grouping these two characters together as "still have a lot of gas left in the tank", though mostly Mario due to Zenyou and Prodigy's performance, as well as Ally keeping him around as a secondary in bracket (and I guess Anti, but his character crisis isn't doing him any favors). Sonic is admittedly purely on account of Sonix, but I do think he's proven himself still capable of contending. He's still fast and he still does a ton of damage.
: Outside of Mr E, not a single solo-main in top 48... but a couple of players who had the latter as a pocket. Feels like we're looking at the new Cloud here. I reckon that's why Lucina has gotten such a shelf life this time around; without Marth having the requisite performance now that you'd want from a solo main, Lucina is a much more preferable secondary to dig out given that you don't need to worry about the inconsistencies being more pronounced.
: I want to say this character can only go up from here but given that Leffen is in the plans of dropping the character I wonder who is going to pick up the mantle. Pandarian did pretty good this tournament, much like Zackray he's still extremely young (15 years old!) so hopefully he can maintain his tournament career.
: Hey she's still good. Shaya was right.

 

[The_Bookworm]

: I'm really not sure what to make of her now. I think Zack has continued to show that she's still a semi-notable threat, but with Tamim going out early, Lima hanging on a wing and a prayer from loser's side in Top 64, and Zack being forced to pick up the princesses as a secondary to even stand a chance in Top 16, I have to imagine this character's reached a pretty visible ceiling pretty quickly. Tamim's Twitter rant... wasn't pretty. This is a flawed character stuck in an extremely sensitive spot, and there's never going to be a way around it.

CaptainZack actually went mostly throughout the entire tournament, only really using Bayo for matches against lower leveled players.

With victories over Nairo, Ally, and Salem using them, he does seem like one of the best Daisy/Peach players atm.

 

[NotLiquid]

CaptainZack actually went mostly throughout the entire tournament, only really using Bayo for matches against lower leveled players.

Go figure, I saw him a few times with Bayonetta on stream and figured he did Bayo at least up until Top 32. I don't know whether Lima is a mad man for making it that far into bracket with just Bayonetta, playing her at that level seems like walking over hot coals right now.

 

[The_Bookworm]

Go figure, I saw him a few times with Bayonetta on stream and figured he did Bayo at least up until Top 32. I don't know whether Lima is a mad man for making it that far into bracket with just Bayonetta, playing her at that level seems like walking over hot coals right now.

Combination of him being a mad-man and having a bit of a lucky bracket. After losing to Trevonte in winner's, he didn't have too much in the way before losing 3-1 to WaDi. Except for one: Nicko could've ended Lima's run before entering top 64, but Lima managed to beat him 2-0 so congrats on him for that.

 

[KakuCP9]

The only real thing that happened is that the hitlag on the Palu n-air has been shortened, so the move, when it hits someone, doesn't take forever to complete. It doesn't harm it's combo game at all, it just simply speeds the combos.

Similarly, the Lucario AS charge hitlag change, in reality, didn't really harm it's combo game. The change does require a little bit of adjusting to get used to, but followups are still possible. However, after ANTi's kinda eh performance in Genesis 6 with pre-patch Lucario, it does seem like this will shaken his confidence in his Lucario.

I still take umbrage with the hitlag change as it makes stuff that was already percent dependent (for both characters) and tight timing even moreso without rhyme or reason. The closest reason I think of is to 'speed up' the game like with Palu's nair change, but didn't think through the implications for Lucario.

 

[Ziodyne 21]

One thing I noticed about Wolf's up B is that while it may not have great distance for a recovery, it can be surprisingly hard to contest.
Its active hitboxes are huge (many times actullay clipping opponets on the ledge from below.) It has hige knockback power and surprisingly little endlag if Wolf finshes it on the ground.. I saw Zackray and other Wolf users sometimes just throw it out in advantage like a divekick and hit opponents' or even use it to get out of disadvantage situations safely.

 

[Minordeth]

Some metagame contextualizing for everyone before we start basing everything, ever off of Genesis 6:

- Sonix was responsible for the only game Zackray lost in the first two days. It should put KEN’s closer losses to Zackray into perspective.

- Top rep of various mains being MIA obviously impacted some representation. Sonic wasn’t hurting this tournament, but I imagine he could have struck deeper with KEN in attendance.

- No Choco or Shky obviously impacts the eventual return of ZSS to the metagame’s consciousness

- Toon Link’s top rep is completely relegated to Japan, with Sigma et al.

- No Trela (or Kvothe) essentially puts the burden of Ridley’s metagame rep onto Locus.

- While FOW was in attendance, the other dominant Ness was absent (Awestin).

- Greninja is scary for the Japanese meta for a reason, and a lot of that reason has to do with Lea. Venia does tear stuff up over in NY, but Lea is likely another world class player.

There are obviously other characters and reps I am missing, but the bottom line is that as stacked as Genesis is, we are still only getting a piece of the overall picture. I was excited to finally see Zackray come on over to the States, and even if he goes 0-2 in top 8, he will have made his mark on the world stage.

In an appropriate twist, much like the meaning of the name of the tournament we are all watching, all of this really is just the beginning.

 

[fozzy fosbourne]

Were there any super heavies in top 64? The only big bois I saw on the streams were Leffen’s Charizard (which was dicey usually) and M2K’s Bowser but that last one might have been pools

 

[NotLiquid]

Were there any super heavies in top 64? The only big bois I saw on the streams were Leffen’s Charizard (which was dicey usually) and M2K’s Bowser but that last one might have been pools

Magister's Incineroar put on a really solid performance all the way to 25th and went out against Salem. Dedede was also surprisingly prevalent, Big D went out at 33rd (but he played Captain Falcon a few times), and Atomsk missed Top 64 just by a mite.