Official Competitive Character Impressions 2.0

[MG_3989]

Crucify me if you want, but if y'all really believe Fox can be as high as Top 3 or even best in the game, I don't see much reason for you to not have Greninja at least top 12.

I don’t think you’re wrong. I think Greninja has all the potential in the world just not the player base whereas Fox has a huge player base that shows results. All it takes is for one or two players in the west to pick up Greninja and start racking up results and I think people will quickly wake up on him

 

[bc1910]

Crucify me if you want, but if y'all really believe Fox can be as high as Top 3 or even best in the game, I don't see much reason for you to not have Greninja at least top 12.

What's interesting about Ultimate is that no-one can agree on who the best character is, nor can people even agree on a rough order for the best characters. So top 5/10/15/whatever has even less meaning now than it did before.

That said, if we take the rough group of widely considered best characters (Peach, Fox, Wolf, Olimar, Pichu, Inkling, Snake etc) I don't see why Greninja can't be in the mix. I sometimes think his out of shield is just too bad to put him at the top of the list and his slow grabs are an issue as well, but that's getting into nitty gritty character weaknesses which all of the top tiers have (Fox's lacklustre throws, Pichu's weight, Inkling's KO issues etc).

Komo thinks Greninja is top 3 so there's that. Greninja's results in the US don't really support a top tier claim but they certainly do in Japan.

 

[PsySmasher]

Well, I haven't posted here yet, so might as well give my overall thoughts on the range of characters seen in Ultimate's meta.

With this game especially, it's good to see the larger pool of characters seen in competitive play. Since it's very early in the game's meta and virtually no one can argee on where most of the characters lie tier-wise, it provides a much more diverse competitive scene for both spectators and players.

Of course more characters see more gameplay in certain regions then others ( being one of the bigger examples here), but as long as there are dedicated players willing to stick with their characters, we can definitely see the potential of each character come through in competition.

And unlike previous entries, there's no clear "best" character. This game, especially considering the size of the roster, is surprisingly well balanced. Everyone has their own advantages and weaknesses. And while some characters do suffer a bit more than others (looking at you ), the deficit isn't as bad as in previous entiries.

So yeah, that's just my overall impressions. This has probably been said a billion time before, but I figured I'd just share my initial opinion before I start posting here every once in a while.

 

[KakuCP9]

Tbh I think Pichu's weaker ledge options and hurting itself are more damning to the character than her weight since unlike Pika, she can't threaten opponents with quick attack so characters like Wolf, Chrom, other Pichu etc can threaten her at the ledge with little care which will grow more apparent when people get better at ledge-trapping. The hurting itself is self-explanatory, but it bears repeating since it compromises her ability to zone with t-jolts, escaping pressure with up-b etc.
Then again, Pichu still has an f-tilt that's super fast, super safe, kills, lasts for 7 frames(!) and probably pays its taxes among other stuff *shrug*.

Also, I stand by my Melee Marth comparison when it comes to Wolf since while their methods are definitely different, both of them have stand-out neutrals thanks to strong spacing tools and have little recourse in the face of getting comboed by their opponents coupled with mediocre recoveries. The only thing that's up in the air is how screwed Wolf is when opponents are outside confirm ranges, though he seems to better spot in that regard thanks to his b-air and d-smash.

 

[Ziodyne 21]

Tbh I think Pichu's weaker ledge options and hurting itself are more damning to the character than her weight since unlike Pika, she can't threaten opponents with quick attack so characters like Wolf, Chrom, other Pichu etc can threaten her at the ledge with little care which will grow more apparent when people get better at ledge-trapping. The hurting itself is self-explanatory, but it bears repeating since it compromises her ability to zone with t-jolts, escaping pressure with up-b etc.
Then again, Pichu still has an f-tilt that's super fast, super safe, kills, lasts for 7 frames(!) and probably pays its taxes among other stuff *shrug*.

Also, I stand by my Melee Marth comparison when it comes to Wolf since while their methods are definitely different, both of them have stand-out neutrals thanks to strong spacing tools and have little recourse in the face of getting comboed by their opponents coupled with mediocre recoveries. The only thing that's up in the air is how screwed Wolf is when opponents are outside confirm ranges, though he seems to better spot in that regard thanks to his b-air and d-smash.

I am interested he Void vs Zackray set is going to go. The general thoughts of what I have been hearing is is a bad MU for due to Pika being to combo Wolf easily and also easily edgegaurd and gimp Wolf's recovery may or may not be as bad due to less potent edgeguarding capabilites. Plus Wolf can potentially kill Pichu like around 50% if he can land a bair or d-smash on Pichu at the ledge

 

[Frihetsanka]

I think Pichu is slightly overrated, still top 10 but not quite top 5. The character has great strengths, sure, but also poor range and low weight. It's a very good character but not quite as good as some people make him out to be. F-tilt is great but not overcentralizing, and if they nerf that they risk plunging Pichu down to high tier, despite not appearing to be close to overpowered.

 

[JustCallMeJon]

Man, Melee GF is near-godlike. A Pokemon Battle between a High Tier Puff and a Mid Tier Pikachu. I screamed so many times for Axe!

Anyways lets find out on Ultimate Top 8!
If you hadnt watch the stream, there you go!

 

[TMNTSSB4]

I missed out on y'all trying to **** on the wholesome Pit...such a sinful thing to do

 

[Idon]

I missed out on y'all trying to **** on the wholesome Pit...such a sinful thing to do

... this is a competitive discussion thread.

 

[KamikazePotato]

After watching Light's run in Genesis 6, I've come to the conclusion that Fox's up smash is the best smash and/or kill move in the game. Extremely fast, extremely strong, can be comboed into by even faster moves, and really isn't that unsafe considering how good everything else about it is. 90% of Fox's kills (that weren't offstage gimping) have been from up smash.

 

[TMNTSSB4]

... this is a competitive discussion thread.

why of course it is...but doesn’t change what occurred to the perfectly balanced Pit (Mr.Illiterate himself needs respect on his name even without Earth being able to back him up)

Besides, there’s someone like people can be ****ing on instead of a simple low high/mid tier hero

 

[NotLiquid]

After watching Light's run in Genesis 6, I've come to the conclusion that Fox's up smash is the best smash and/or kill move in the game. Extremely fast, extremely strong, can be comboed into by even faster moves, and really isn't that unsafe considering how good everything else about it is. 90% of Fox's kills (that weren't offstage gimping) have been from up smash.

Funny, I was about to come in here and say that about Olimar's up smash, where all of that applies including the bonus of hitting opponents behind you.

 

[Allkings]

even if fall in the metagame (already a little) i dont think he will low tier he has too much to fall that low

on the side note who do you think is the worst character? (for me its )

 

[MG_3989]

even if fall in the metagame (already a little) i dont think he will low tier he has too much to fall that low

on the side note who do you think is the worst character? (for me its )

Little Mac because he’s fundamentally broken as a character and there’s nothing they can do to fix him or make him better. With everyone else that’s bad a few buffs and tweaks might work because they function in the game, Little Mac is almost missing an air game

 

[Diddy Kong]

I think Kirby is potentially the worst character. Literally has no range, or means to really get in outside of parrying or spot dodges into U Tilt or something. Lacks kill options, gimpable, dies early, and overall is just... bad.

Little Mac and Bowser Jr. are also bad. But not as bad as Kirby I feel. Outside of them, Ice Climbers seem underwhelming. But I really have no idea which other character should be conisdered low tier. Mr.Game & Watch also comes to mind.

What I DO know however, is that Wario is absolutely ridiculous and I would dare call HIM the best character in the game right now. Followed up with Fox. Sleeper pick being Greninja, and after that probably Lucina, Ike, Wolf, Snake and Chrom. Link is probably up there as well due to results.

 

[MG_3989]

I think Kirby is potentially the worst character. Literally has no range, or means to really get in outside of parrying or spot dodges into U Tilt or something. Lacks kill options, gimpable, dies early, and overall is just... bad.

Little Mac and Bowser Jr. are also bad. But not as bad as Kirby I feel. Outside of them, Ice Climbers seem underwhelming. But I really have no idea which other character should be conisdered low tier. Mr.Game & Watch also comes to mind.

What I DO know however, is that Wario is absolutely ridiculous and I would dare call HIM the best character in the game right now. Followed up with Fox. Sleeper pick being Greninja, and after that probably Lucina, Ike, Wolf, Snake and Chrom. Link is probably up there as well due to results.

The reason I put Mac as the worst is because even though he can perform well in very ideal conditions he’s not fixable. Bowser Jr and Kirby are fixable characters

I’d put Palu, Inkling, Olimar, Pichu, Pikachu, PT, Roy, YL, Ness, Megaman, maybe Cloud and a couple more I’m probably forgetting right now because I just woke up there or right under that tier based on results and kits, but that’s just rounding out the top 15 or 20 or so I guess. I think all of those characters are capable of winning

So question: A lot of people think that eventually Ultimate will turn into a match-up game. I haven’t seen that happening at all so far with pro’s sticking to their mains for the most part but some people are saying it’s inevitable because of the roster size. While we’re on the topic of top characters do you guys think about this? Will a traditional tier list not cut it for Ultimate once the meta develops further?

 

[The_Bookworm]

Little Mac because he’s fundamentally broken as a character and there’s nothing they can do to fix him or make him better. With everyone else that’s bad a few buffs and tweaks might work because they function in the game, Little Mac is almost missing an air game

Mac is fixable. If they buff his first jump to properly reach platforms, then he already doesn't get bodied by stage counterpick. Already a good start. Another good thing they could provide Mac with is gaining some of the grounded tools he lost from SSB4, such as jab and d-tilt's combo ability and KO setups.

Right here, he is maybe a decent character, but his recovery is stupid bad to add on to his air game problems. I think the fact that he can essentially lose his side B, similar to losing your jump, is silly and only makes his recovery less consistent than it already was in SSB4. Hopefully a fix to that. His recovery would still be exploitable, but not free.

 

[MG_3989]

Mac is fixable. If they buff his first jump to properly reach platforms, then he already doesn't get bodied by stage counterpick. Already a good start. Another good thing they could provide Mac with is gaining some of the grounded tools he lost from SSB4, such as jab and d-tilt's combo ability and KO setups.

Right here, he is maybe a decent character, but his recovery is stupid bad to add on to his air game problems. I think the fact that he can essentially lose his side B, similar to losing your jump, is silly and only makes his recovery less consistent than it already was in SSB4. Hopefully a fix to that. His recovery would still be exploitable, but not free.

Ok I can get behind that. His recovery just can’t be a free gimp. Characters like Ness, Chrom, Cloud, Wolf, the Belmonts, etc.. all overcome lackluster recoveries to be viable characters it’s just Mac’s isn’t even functional. I’d like to see some of those buffs because he’s a pretty cool unique character

 

[Tri Knight]

After watching Light's run in Genesis 6, I've come to the conclusion that Fox's up smash is the best smash and/or kill move in the game. Extremely fast, extremely strong, can be comboed into by even faster moves, and really isn't that unsafe considering how good everything else about it is. 90% of Fox's kills (that weren't offstage gimping) have been from up smash.

I think what makes the move even better is Fox himself. The guy is extremely fast. The move is absurdley strong, especially for Fox but what makes it scarier is that Fox can just dash up to you sooo quickly and pop it off in an instant. I dont think I would be as afraid of the move if it was on a slower character.

 

[The_Bookworm]

So question: A lot of people think that eventually Ultimate will turn into a match-up game. I haven’t seen that happening at all so far with pro’s sticking to their mains for the most part but some people are saying it’s inevitable because of the roster size. While we’re on the topic of top characters do you guys think about this? Will a traditional tier list not cut it for Ultimate once the meta develops further?

Good question. The top placing players thus so far doesn't really use just one character to place high in events. For example, both the winner and runner-up of Genesis 6, MkLeo and VoiD, used secondaries to place that high. Leo mainly used Ike, but used Lucina to defeat Light and double-elimate VoiD at grand finals. VoiD mainly used Pichu, but used Wolf in order to deal with Shuton. The highest placing player who simply used only one character throughout the entire event is Samsora, who placed 3rd with Peach.

Despite this, we cannot judge the metagame from this tourney alone, especially considering that it is still very early in the metagame. Time will tell.

 

[SapphSabre777]

I think Kirby is potentially the worst character. Literally has no range, or means to really get in outside of parrying or spot dodges into U Tilt or something. Lacks kill options, gimpable, dies early, and overall is just... bad.

Little Mac and Bowser Jr. are also bad. But not as bad as Kirby I feel. Outside of them, Ice Climbers seem underwhelming. But I really have no idea which other character should be conisdered low tier. Mr.Game & Watch also comes to mind.

Kirby would be considered the worst imo, if it were still 1.2.1. In 2.0.0, that's changed, and while he is still a low/bottom tier, the buffs are putting him in the right direction and I cannot in good faith call him the worst anymore.

In 1.2.1, what Kirby was missing overall was a sense of cohesiveness to his kit. There was no sense of reward to him in the prior patch because it was virtually impossible for him to reliably and safely get stage control. His only options were F-Air and B-Air at mid %s, and that's risky with all the lethal OoS U-Smashes and aerials the game has to offer. Getting in, while it is a problem, wasn't his main issue: it was the lack of options he could do when he got in, which led to his advantage state being more of a "catch-and-release" rather than a traditional "never let you get away" advantage state. He has plenty of options to KO opponents, such as B-Air, F-Air 1 conversions, Dash Attack, and using Smashes to beat out aggressive options (plus the new F-Tilt), but when your reward was so dismal that you can't even rack up damage properly like the rest of the cast, that phenomenon was arguably worse than lacking a KO option.

This changed significantly with 2.0.0, thanks to the F-Tilt buff he received. The base knockback of the move was dramatically increased to where he now causes a tumble at late-early %s (18% - 30%) on the cast, rather than all the way at mid to high-percents, finally giving him a stage control option that is much safer than what he has had before. He also has a better chance extending his advantage state because of the buff, and the FAF decrease from 28 -> 24 helps create techchase or aggressive follow-up situations Kirby couldn't do before. The move itself also functions as a modest version of Pichu's F-Tilt at the ledge, being able to KO faster on the ledge than his own throws (can KO Mario at around the 140s, or just gimp him because of the knockback, compared to U-Throw which KOs a bit later, I think the 150s).

Again, I'm not calling Kirby anything ridiculously high tier, because he still has some issues needing to be ironed out. Stuff like air speed/acceleration and frame data likely won't happen because of the archetype that the dev team is looking for (think how Kirby plays in his games and you can tell they are trying to mimic it), but the changes made to Kirby show that they are trying to make him more cohesive in design (buffing his reward more proper to compensate for having difficulties getting in). It's still a long way to go, and while there are some issues the big Kirby players are wanting to see (we hate how BF eliminates our F-Throw combos, and we especially hate how fragile our Copy Abilities are and how Inhale is still undertuned, despite the 1.2x buff), I cannot in good faith, for right now, see Kirby as the worst. Let's just hope this ideology of buffing characters cohesively trends in these patches.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

I'm going to have to deal with another round of people complaining about Ike's Nair aren't I?

Like, just to be clear... ignoring the fact that through several tournaments top level players have shown that yes shielding/parrying and then punishing works pretty well against predictable Nairs and stuffing his Nair with a fast aerial wrecks it hard, you would have to buff all of the following on Ike to not dumpster him:

Fair - Its barely a KOing move (it failed to kill a ROB at 120% during a walkoff Fair on Castle Siege a few tournaments ago for MKLeo), it barely has more range than Nair, and it has more landing lag than Nair. Its okay right now because of its angle and the fact that it synergies with Nair fairly well. If you make Nair not as safe on shield despite it already being difficult to keep safe on shield, you have to give Fair more range and a lot less landing lag so Ike can actually hit a shield without getting punished. And probably more knockback.

Dtilt - Right now it works well as a mixup when an opponent is expecting Nair or a followup after a Fair. Its not really usable as a grounded approach option even with the ability to cancel runs into it because its range is too short. In fact nothing Ike has really works well for grounded approaches outside of the occasional Dash Attack if you think your opponent is going to do something laggy and you're at midrange. Like, watch MKLeo's games again, count how many grounded approaches you see outside of Dash Attack and the occasional grab. I don't think you'd get past 5. If Nair becomes something that's no longer a great approaching tool for Ike, then he needs to be given a grounded option. Which means giving Dtilt more range. And spoilers, Dtilt pretty much does the same thing Nair does now when it hits.

Utilt - Its supposed to be an anti-aerial option. And it works in some cases. But the problem is they shifted the hitbox forwards from SSB4 which means there's no hitbox where his hand/arm are. But there's still a hurtbox. Which means a good number of aerials manage to either clearly hit the hand or cause a trade instead of being a good anti-air. Rear hitbox would have to expand (not shift) back to where it was in previous games: slightly behind Ike. Lets him have a weak but existent get off me option as well outside of Nair. The fact that its closer to a comboing more than a KOing move unlike previous Smash games is questionable but if it did its job correctly it would probably be alright.

Grab - Its range is garbo. Lets just put that out there right now, it gets used because every character needs to use grab a bit even if its bad. But its pretty bad range wise on all accounts right now, and if Nair ain't pressuring shield at all because they weakened it then Ike needs his anti-shield option to like... actually work well as that.

And then beyond those four things, depending on what they did they might also have to buff Jab. Its damage is kinda pathetic, they keep lowering it with every smash game. Either keep the damage and buff Jab 1 to a F3 start up like back in Brawl, or keep the F4 start up and up the total damage off of Jab. Because right now while technically its a get off me move its not one you really want to use because you get nothing for it and its not quite fast enough to be consistent.

As a side note, even if they don't touch Ike's Nair (which they shouldn't), they should fix his Counter. Right now its slower than the other FE counters but has the same multiplier as Marth/Lucina. That's kinda silly! Either give him his slightly higher multiplier back or equalize his frame data with the other FE counters.

---

Besides the impending whining, I'm pretty happy with how MKLeo did. I thought he had dropped the ball on the first set against Samsora, his Nair spacing was pretty off a lot of the times. But he brought it back the second time and wasn't afraid to switch off of Ike when needed. And this time he learned to not switch to Cloud because Cloud as similar weaknesses to Ike so its not much of a change. Last time he won a tournament we failed to see the giant wave of Ikes spamming Nairs in tournament that some people were expecting, and I don't think its going to happen this time either. Ike's not complicated to understand but to pull him off successfully at top level is a challenge because Ike lacks options and everyone knows what options you do have. On top of his recovery kit as a whole barely being better than the reset of the FE cast's recovery.

 

[KamikazePotato]

Nah man Ike is braindead and Leo gets carried by him. Just look at all the other Ikes in the top 64.

Wait...

 

[Phosphophyllite]

is definitely one of those characters where the more you play him the most depressing it is to see just how bad he is. Lost his combos, lost range on a lot of his moves, lost kill moves, and worst of all the shiny new bomb Fair is complete garbage. Doesn't detonate when it hits people, takes ages to actually detonate, literally any move comes in contact with it and it gets deleted, it's so bad I wish his old Fair would come back. Straight up his character design makes no sense, what's the point in having a quick speedy low damage character who doesn't have combos and isn't able to approach?

 

[ARISTOS]

I'm surprised nobody is mentioning the fact that Elegant was eleminated by a of all things, considering how hard Luigi bodies him off stage.

Luigi is not good

I'm going to have to deal with another round of people complaining about Ike's Nair aren't I?

Like, just to be clear... ignoring the fact that through several tournaments top level players have shown that yes shielding/parrying and then punishing works pretty well against predictable Nairs and stuffing his Nair with a fast aerial wrecks it hard, you would have to buff all of the following on Ike to not dumpster him:

Fair - Its barely a KOing move (it failed to kill a ROB at 120% during a walkoff Fair on Castle Siege a few tournaments ago for MKLeo), it barely has more range than Nair, and it has more landing lag than Nair. Its okay right now because of its angle and the fact that it synergies with Nair fairly well. If you make Nair not as safe on shield despite it already being difficult to keep safe on shield, you have to give Fair more range and a lot less landing lag so Ike can actually hit a shield without getting punished. And probably more knockback.

Dtilt - Right now it works well as a mixup when an opponent is expecting Nair or a followup after a Fair. Its not really usable as a grounded approach option even with the ability to cancel runs into it because its range is too short. In fact nothing Ike has really works well for grounded approaches outside of the occasional Dash Attack if you think your opponent is going to do something laggy and you're at midrange. Like, watch MKLeo's games again, count how many grounded approaches you see outside of Dash Attack and the occasional grab. I don't think you'd get past 5. If Nair becomes something that's no longer a great approaching tool for Ike, then he needs to be given a grounded option. Which means giving Dtilt more range. And spoilers, Dtilt pretty much does the same thing Nair does now when it hits.

Utilt - Its supposed to be an anti-aerial option. And it works in some cases. But the problem is they shifted the hitbox forwards from SSB4 which means there's no hitbox where his hand/arm are. But there's still a hurtbox. Which means a good number of aerials manage to either clearly hit the hand or cause a trade instead of being a good anti-air. Rear hitbox would have to expand (not shift) back to where it was in previous games: slightly behind Ike. Lets him have a weak but existent get off me option as well outside of Nair. The fact that its closer to a comboing more than a KOing move unlike previous Smash games is questionable but if it did its job correctly it would probably be alright.

Grab - Its range is garbo. Lets just put that out there right now, it gets used because every character needs to use grab a bit even if its bad. But its pretty bad range wise on all accounts right now, and if Nair ain't pressuring shield at all because they weakened it then Ike needs his anti-shield option to like... actually work well as that.

And then beyond those four things, depending on what they did they might also have to buff Jab. Its damage is kinda pathetic, they keep lowering it with every smash game. Either keep the damage and buff Jab 1 to a F3 start up like back in Brawl, or keep the F4 start up and up the total damage off of Jab. Because right now while technically its a get off me move its not one you really want to use because you get nothing for it and its not quite fast enough to be consistent.

As a side note, even if they don't touch Ike's Nair (which they shouldn't), they should fix his Counter. Right now its slower than the other FE counters but has the same multiplier as Marth/Lucina. That's kinda silly! Either give him his slightly higher multiplier back or equalize his frame data with the other FE counters.

---

Besides the impending whining, I'm pretty happy with how MKLeo did. I thought he had dropped the ball on the first set against Samsora, his Nair spacing was pretty off a lot of the times. But he brought it back the second time and wasn't afraid to switch off of Ike when needed. And this time he learned to not switch to Cloud because Cloud as similar weaknesses to Ike so its not much of a change. Last time he won a tournament we failed to see the giant wave of Ikes spamming Nairs in tournament that some people were expecting, and I don't think its going to happen this time either. Ike's not complicated to understand but to pull him off successfully at top level is a challenge because Ike lacks options and everyone knows what options you do have. On top of his recovery kit as a whole barely being better than the reset of the FE cast's recovery.

Who was complaining about Ike in the thread?

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Who was complaining about Ike in the thread?

Look back to the last time MKLeo won a tournament. Had a couple of pages of people complaining about Ike's Nair and how it should be nerfed because its overcentralizing for his kit.

 

[Bloop]

Luigi is not good



Who was complaining about Ike in the thread?

It happened when Leo won Smash Conference.
It died out soon after though from what I remember.
I think what they were alluding to was the potential talk of nerf Ike cause Leo makes him look busted cropping up again (though as they mentioned we've seen chinks in the armor recently.)

 

[Omnos]

If Ike's weaknesses weren't clearly on display when used by the best player in the world, then people will just complain for the sake of it.

If Ike was op like some people like to claim, Leo wouldn't have swapped to Lucina when needed.

 

[The_Bookworm]

is definitely one of those characters where the more you play him the most depressing it is to see just how bad he is. Lost his combos, lost range on a lot of his moves, lost kill moves, and worst of all the shiny new bomb Fair is complete garbage. Doesn't detonate when it hits people, takes ages to actually detonate, literally any move comes in contact with it and it gets deleted, it's so bad I wish his old Fair would come back. Straight up his character design makes no sense, what's the point in having a quick speedy low damage character who doesn't have combos and isn't able to approach?

Seems like someone hasn't been watching footage on Maister's G&W.

 

[Heracr055]

Is there any particular reason Zack didn't reflect Dabuz's Pikmin back at him? Dabuz was throwing out quite a few Smash attacks one after the other and I think reflect could've got him an early stock, or at the very least make Dabuz think twice about throwing his Smash attacks out willy nilly.

 

[boysilver400]

I still stand by the fact that is the worst, but is becoming more frustrating to play as, probably even more than Mac imo, so she’s definitely a close second.

Jigglypuff is a beast at edge guarding...but that’s practically all she’s good for. Her arials outside of Dair and Bair a slow, her specials are garbage, she still doesn’t have any good rest combos outside of up air strings but that’s really predictable and easy to avoid. The reward for rest still isn’t that high for such a high risk.

Ideas for other buffs

- this will probably never happen, but give her melee rest back. She desperately needs a high reward for such a terrible ground game. And she needs safer and more efficient combos into it.

-rollout needs to gtfo. Arguably the worst move in smash history. Replace it with Hypervoice and make it a projectile. This may not happen in ultimate but it’s definitely something to consider if there’s another game.

-Give her a kill tilt. Rest shouldn’t be her only kill option other than her smashes.

 

[MG_3989]

I still stand by the fact that is the worst, but is becoming more frustrating to play as, probably even more than Mac imo, so she’s definitely a close second.

Jigglypuff is a beast at edge guarding...but that’s practically all she’s good for. Her arials outside of Dair and Bair a slow, her specials are garbage, she still doesn’t have any good rest combos outside of up air strings but that’s really predictable and easy to avoid. The reward for rest still isn’t that high for such a high risk.

Ideas for other buffs

- this will probably never happen, but give her melee rest back. She desperately needs a high reward for such a terrible ground game. And she needs safer and more efficient combos into it.

-rollout needs to gtfo. Arguably the worst move in smash history. Replace it with Hypervoice and make it a projectile. This may not happen in ultimate but it’s definitely something to consider if there’s another game.

-Give her a kill tilt. Rest shouldn’t be her only kill option other than her smashes.

I think Jiggs has a lot of problems but I don’t think she’s anywhere close to as bad as Mac or Kirby. She still has rest and she can still completely oppress a ton of characters in the air. She can definitely use some buffs but I don’t think she’s a horrible character

If rest killed earlier and there were maybe one or two super reliable rest set ups we might be talking about a high tier character

She’s still can be a menace in the right hands and if they continue buffing her over Ultimate I do believe she’ll see high level play

 

[Rocketjay8]

I think Jiggs has a lot of problems but I don’t think she’s anywhere close to as bad as Mac or Kirby. She still has rest and she can still completely oppress a ton of characters in the air. She can definitely use some buffs but I don’t think she’s a horrible character

If rest killed earlier and there were maybe one or two super reliable rest set ups we might be talking about a high tier character

She’s still a menace in the right hands

I would make rest kill at 50 percent and make roll out be cancelable when you hit an opponent and shields.

 

[MG_3989]

I would make rest kill at 50 percent and make roll out be cancelable when you hit an opponent.

That would help a lot. A couple decent set ups at around 40-60% for rest would also do wonders for her. I don’t think she’s a bad character though

 

[Lore]

Do we have any numbers on Bowser representation? I've seen it commonly said that he is being slept on, and I tend to agree.

However, I'm not sure if Genesis results either support that through a lack of representation or if it mostly disproves it. I haven't seen a count of how many Bowser mains were at the event.

What do you guys think?

 

[IsmaR]

Is there any particular reason Zack didn't reflect Dabuz's Pikmin back at him? Dabuz was throwing out quite a few Smash attacks one after the other and I think reflect could've got him an early stock, or at the very least make Dabuz think twice about throwing his Smash attacks out willy nilly.

Wolf's Reflector doesn't reflect until frame 10, making it require precise timing. I'd imagine he saw as a big commitment in a high pace/tense match up.

Dabuz is smart about not throwing out moves haphazardly, he likely knew this or was at least aware of the risk.

 

[Phosphophyllite]

Seems like someone hasn't been watching footage on Maister's G&W.

Someone doing well with a character doesn't mean the character isn't fundamentally flawed. Big D and Zaki did well with Dedede in Smash 4, but that didn't mean Dedede wasn't trash tier.

 

[Game7a1]

Seems like someone hasn't been watching footage on Maister's G&W.

While I would agree, his performance at Genesis 6 leaves a lot to be desired as he underperformed his seeding. That said, three other G&W players outplaced him and their seeding (Regi at 33rd, Radda Radda and twerkmastr at 65th).

Someone doing well with a character doesn't mean the character isn't fundamentally flawed. Big D and Zaki did well with Dedede in Smash 4, but that didn't mean Dedede wasn't trash tier.

I think part of what he means is that you should be watching what he does with the character rather than just looking at his placements. At least G&W has been gathering results and has a decent playerbase despite being a niche character.

Also, you're spreading misinformation. Outside of the nerfed range on moves (which everyone agrees on), he is a combo character, still has kill moves (F-Tilt, D-Tilt, Smahses, B-air, D-air), and F-air Bomb has applications but requires a different appraoch rather than his old Box. If you think I'm wrong, I do suggest you watch some footage of Maister and co. to see what I mean. Bookworm linked one a few pages ago between Maister and Ned, which would be a good start.

 

[J0eyboi]

Her arials outside of Dair and Bair a slow

wat

Post-buff, her slowest aerial is Bair, at frame 10. Her aerials aren't that slow.

-Give her a kill tilt. Rest shouldn’t be her only kill option other than her smashes.

What the actual **** are you talking about? Puff has 2 tilts that kill, Utilt and Dtilt. Even outside of that, 2 of her aerials, Nair and Bair, also kill. She's not restricted to Rest and smash attacks for killing; you're thinking of Wario.

 

[Frihetsanka]

I’ve seen people have some misconceptions what it means to be a low tier/high tier and such. First off, just because a character in low tier doesn’t mean they automatically lose to every high tier, that’s wrong: Low tiers are low tiers because their overall matchup spread is bad, but that doesn’t mean any specific matchup is necessarily bad. Jigglypuff in Smash 4 (one of the worst in the game, worse than Ultimate Little Mac probably) arguably went even or beat Captain Falcon, a high tier or high-mid tier character. A top tier character can go even or potentially even lose to a high-mid character, that doesn’t mean the high-mid tier character is suddenly top tier as well.

So, with that out of the way, we should try to understand what makes a tier list. Ultimately, tier lists are decided by matchup spreads, and special emphasis is put on meta-relevant matchups. Losing to a common top tier character is significantly worse than losing to a niche low tier character, for instance. Olimar (a top tier character) potentially losing to Corrin (a low-mid tier character, probably) is not nearly as bad as losing to, say, Lucina or Cloud (top or high tier characters). How hard one loses matters too, and that will be my next point of discussions.

MU charts are generally divided into different groups. The traditional fighting game MU charts generally go with 50-50, 60-40, 70-30, 80-20, which some Smash players use, but many instead opt for 50-50- 55-45, 60-40, 65-35. Alternatively, people may use +1, +2, +3, +4, with +1 meaning 55-45 or 60-40, +2 60-40 or 70-30, +3 65-35 or 80-20, +4 70-30 or 90-10. I +1/2/3/4 causes fewer discussions than trying to go with “60-40” since to some 60-40 is +2 (many Smash players) while to others it’s +1 (many traditional fighting game players, some Smash players as well).

What do they mean, then? +1 roughly means “slight advantage”, +2 “advantage”, +3 “large or huge advantage”, +4 “near unwinnable”. Top tiers and high tiers generally only have -1 MUs at worst, although in Ultimate they might have one or two -2 as well, potentially (larger roster and more balanced than previous Smash iterations).

A -1 MU is annoying for sure and can even be seen as hard, but it’s very doable and you don’t strictly need to use a counter-pick to win (although going from a -1 MU to a +1 MU can be pretty beneficial if you can pull this off). Some Smash 4 examples (Ultimate MUs are less agreed upon, so I’m using Smash 4 examples) are Corrin versus Sheik or Zero Suit Samus versus Diddy Kong.

-2 MUs are quite a bit worse, at this point it’s going to be an uphill battle, although it is certainly still winnable. Some characters with significant flaws might have several -2 MUs (such as Richter and Simon Belmont), while more balanced top and high tiers are likely to only have one or two or perhaps none at all (I don’t think Lucina or Marth have any, for instance). Some Smash 4 examples are Ryu versus Rosalina, Mario versus Sonic, Ness versus Rosalina, and Ness versus Corrin. Doable, but very hard.

Next, we have -3 MUs, and for these MUs you generally want to switch off to a different character if you can. Having even a single -3 MU makes your character not solo viable and probably better as a counter-pick character. Some Smash 4 examples of potential -3 MUs: Rosalina vs Bowser and Donkey Kong (she wins), Zero Suit Samus vs Bowser and Donkey Kong (she wins), Ganondorf vs Bayonetta (she wins), King Dedede vs Mega Man (Mega Man wins). I’m not convinced there are any -3 MUs in Ultimate yet, but there might be. As for -4 MUs, Smash 4 didn’t have any but Brawl and Smash 64 did, I highly doubt Ultimate has any though.

What does this all mean for the metagame? Well… I’ve seen some people speculate that we’ll see a counter-pick meta, and while that’s a bit more likely than in Smash 4 (since even top tiers in this game are likely to have a few -1 MUs) I don’t think it’s going to happen too much. Ultimately, -1 MUs are very doable, and most of the top players are going to be playing top tiers and high tiers, meaning that they don’t really need a secondary. Mid tier and low tier mains benefit more from secondaries, but many of them play mid and low tiers because they enjoy those characters and/or want to prove themselves with them, so that lessens the likelihood of them counter-picking. Having a secondary that’s easy to keep fresh can be beneficial (since swinging a -1 MU to +1 does help a lot), but I don’t think it’s going to be necessary if you main a top or high tier.