Official Competitive Character Impressions 2.0

[The_Bookworm]

Falcon, appears to be on the more technical side of the roster in this game. His character underwent a complete overhaul between smash 4 and Ultimate. His kill options used to include back air and raptor boost but those have been traded for a killing up special and falcon kick at higher percents. He trades his combo starter falling up air for fast fall nair hit 1 which leads into many things at almost every percent. His neutral options were very clear cut in smash 4 but seem to be more nebulous now. He loses his amazing dash grab but gains options out of sprint. Slide tilted Ftilt is a good poking tool and jab out of sprint is great for punishing landings.

Characters with big disjointed hitboxes like swordies and projectile users due to the shield mechanics changes seem to have it better off in neutral, and falcon has neither of those things. His combo potential in this game is excellent with things like first hit nair and his up air is still great. He has great potential in tech chases as well. But these things are lost if you can't exploit openings. Falcon's success in neutral will require a lot of matchup knowledge to space around the opponent's neutral options and use falcon's speed to exploit openings. A falcon player will have to make the most of every opening they get in this game because he is still combo food.

Its going to be a hard life for falcon mains out there, I won't say anything about where I'd place him on the tier list because I think Falcon will be very dynamic in the meta as it progresses. I'll just say he should not be written off. His custom combos and edgeguarding presence make him worth playing.

Couldn't have said it better myself. Fatality's first major is going to be Frostbite, so we will have to wait to see what he has labbed up there so far. From what I heard, he has access to Captain L's enhanced training mode mod.

 

[Rizen]

From what I heard, he has access to Captain L's enhanced training mode mod.

What's that do?

 

[The_Bookworm]

What's that do?

Don't entirely know, but Fatality has a video on YouTube that has him explore the mod.

 

[DavemanCozy]

I heard he can switch to shield art in hitstun to interrupt combos; is that true?

Not in hitstun. He can only open the wheel when he's not hitstun. And to interrupt fast strings with small frame windows (less than 11 frames), he needs to have already stored the charge for the monado arts dail wheel. So he can open the wheel during non-true combo strings like in this match:
https://youtu.be/rSz-63Ouy6M?t=121

Watch how Dark Wolf escapes Bayo's witch twist at the time I shared this match. There's other examples along the match.

Also here's what I mean by storing the dail wheel charge:
https://youtu.be/bpNCvHinmlA
By storing the charge Shulk can later open the monado wheel as soon as frame 1.

 

[J0eyboi]

Not in hitstun. He can only open the wheel when he's not hitstun.

No, he can open it in hitstun. I just tested it. He can also open it in hitlag, but it closes automatically once hitlag ends. Interestingly, having the dial close automatically like this also gives you full charge (Update: this only happens if you open the dial while in hitlag, not if it's open before you get hit).

Also, while I'm here:

Don't entirely know, but Fatality has a video on YouTube that has him explore the mod.

From my understanding, it's not really a mod in the traditional sense. It's a program run on an Arduino that's plugged into the Switch and treated as a second controller. As such, it affords you some degree of control over what the CPU does (DI etc) without having to switch between the two controllers while using frame-by-frame the way I usually do whenever I try to test something that requires P2 input.

 

[Minordeth]

So, previous CCI poster A2ZOMG , posted in the Ridleycord about how Ridley can buffer turn-around dtilt out of a foxtrot. I have yet to verify how many characters can actually do this, but he has found seven.

Why is this important? Ridley's dtilt is bonkers, and being able to abuse his quick foxtrot, and buffer a frame perfect dtilt makes his already solid ground game a bit deeper and more robust. It is quite a bit harder to execute than buffered turn-around ftilt, since the C-stick input is actually harder than rolling the control stick in a sort of reverse hadoken to get it.

A saving grace for Ridley, in a game of small combo-based characters, is that his jab is frame 4. His side-B, on stage, after release, leaves both players at an even or neutral frame advantage. It's surprisingly fast, and acts as a means to beat out jabs that would otherwise be in the same range.

Chroy, Simon, and the Pits all have frame 5 jabs, and thus have more limited options out of Side-B, making Side-B a more favorable option for Ridley, especially at lower percents. Shielding or parrying is generally the go to option, but if the Ridley expects it, it becomes a free ticket to grab city.

 

[fozzy fosbourne]

From my understanding, it's not really a mod in the traditional sense. It's a program run on an Arduino that's plugged into the Switch and treated as a second controller. As such, it affords you some degree of control over what the CPU does (DI etc) without having to switch between the two controllers while using frame-by-frame the way I usually do whenever I try to test something that requires P2 input.

It also has the ability to record a sequence of inputs and then play them back over and over. Which is probably pretty handy for labbing against different options. I'm going to try and build one this week. It's still pretty silly to me though that they don't provide this simple luxury in the training mode for the game, since people who hack of controller electronics or their switch eventually will have a competitive edge.

 

[Shaya]

So, previous CCI poster A2ZOMG , posted in the Ridleycord about how Ridley can buffer turn-around dtilt out of a foxtrot. I have yet to verify how many characters can actually do this, but he has found seven.

Why is this important? Ridley's dtilt is bonkers, and being able to abuse his quick foxtrot, and buffer a frame perfect dtilt makes his already solid ground game a bit deeper and more robust. It is quite a bit harder to execute than buffered turn-around ftilt, since the C-stick input is actually harder than rolling the control stick in a sort of reverse hadoken to get it.

A saving grace for Ridley, in a game of small combo-based characters, is that his jab is frame 4. His side-B, on stage, after release, leaves both players at an even or neutral frame advantage. It's surprisingly fast, and acts as a means to beat out jabs that would otherwise be in the same range.

Chroy, Simon, and the Pits all have frame 5 jabs, and thus have more limited options out of Side-B, making Side-B a more favorable option for Ridley, especially at lower percents. Shielding or parrying is generally the go to option, but if the Ridley expects it, it becomes a free ticket to grab city.

I haven't seen any videos of it to make sure I understand what's being implied.
But when you dash, wait momentarily and input backwards and c-stick down at the same time you'll do a frame perfect turn around dtilt.

Some characters slide with it (just like with other tilts/i believe some smash attacks and maybe even some specials?). This has been the way buffering has worked with it all this time I think?
It's still a run canceled action I believe. Fox trots are just initial dashes before entering run.

 

[Rizen]

I haven't seen any videos of it to make sure I understand what's being implied.
But when you dash, wait momentarily and input backwards and c-stick down at the same time you'll do a frame perfect turn around dtilt.

Some characters slide with it (just like with other tilts/i believe some smash attacks and maybe even some specials?). This has been the way buffering has worked with it all this time I think?
It's still a run canceled action I believe. Fox trots are just initial dashes before entering run.

I assume that's tilt stick?

Pivot grabs seem less influential since we can't dash through opponents. They seem better for tether grabs but maybe I'm neglecting them.

On that note, it bugs me sliding was removed from most attacks. It took a long time to retrain myself to get directly under the opponent before using an upward attack.

 

[KakuCP9]

I haven't seen any videos of it to make sure I understand what's being implied.
But when you dash, wait momentarily and input backwards and c-stick down at the same time you'll do a frame perfect turn around dtilt.

Some characters slide with it (just like with other tilts/i believe some smash attacks and maybe even some specials?). This has been the way buffering has worked with it all this time I think?
It's still a run canceled action I believe. Fox trots are just initial dashes before entering run.

https://smashboards.com/threads/buffered-turnaround-d-tilt-out-of-foxtrot.466791/
He made a video and a post explaining it here.

 

[trickroom]

I've been playing Falco some more and I'm starting to get a little pessimistic about him. I'm sure he's still more viable than Sm4sh, but that's mostly because that is a low bar. He still hurts a lot from how sluggish he is on the ground, and also from how laggy his fair is. The real kicker for him if you ask me, though, is his inability to kill. It's a BIG problem. His smash attacks are all decent (Usmash is pretty amazing actually) but his slowness makes them really hard to land. Against anyone who can keep him out it becomes a serious issue in my opinion.

 

[The_Bookworm]

Recent ignition tournament occurred. Some food for thought on G&W, since some people here thinks he sucks.

The 9 moment on game 3 was hilarious.
I personally don't have that achievement unlocked myself :/

 

[Shaya]

Oh, I did see it, and it was what I think it is.

It's still a 15 frame commitment before a dtilt can start to come out.
Dashing away into turn around stuff is something we could like, do in smash four!
Of course now it's 15 frames for everyone. (it's possible there's a dead frame gained from doing this manually??)

It's simple to do - just after inputting dash press back and the c-stick at the same time. If you don't do it right, you'll end up fox trotting in the opposite direction and do nothing (or dash attack, or just dtilt facing forward at the earliest point of your run).

I mentioned this week 1 I believe multiple times. Pivot cancel actions (with a c-stick) goes very well with the push buffer system.

It's a shame zero suits down tilt has zero range because otherwise I would be doing it more.

 

[**Gilgamesh**]

In theory, yes. The issue is that you, the player, have to split your time and energy between multiple characters. If you have 100 hours to practice per month, it might be better to spend 100 hours on your main instead of 70 on your main and 30 on a secondary, so picking up a secondary isn't always beneficial. Top players, on the other hand, seem to spend 150-200+ hours every month or something like that (though a good amount of that is messing around while streaming), so it's easier to be good with multiple characters for them.

Salem mostly played Bayonetta in Smash 4? He also had a Greninja but he didn't really use it much, he was basically a Bayonetta solo main and still did incredibly well.

I guess Wario being a potential top tier is more likely because of Glitch 6, and Bayonetta is likely mid tier (good enough to top 8 a major, bad enough to have significant flaws).

Meh, Tamim bracket wasn't that hard (he losses came from Light and MKleo; two top top level players) and bayonetta flaws was showcased incredibly hard when he played Mkleo. Bayonetta really doesn't have any place at top level when you're facing players like Mkleo or Light. The character desperately need some reliable kill confirms when characters like Peach/Fox/ Ike/Pichu/Pikachu/Inklings/ Wario all can do insane amounts of damage from ONE opening and have great kill-power / kill confirms. This isn't smash 4 where nearly the entire cast couldn't reliably convert a string from 0-70%. Many of Ultimate top tiers already have great damage output along with kill confirms that is nicely packaged into their kit.

Samsora already stated on stream that he knows Tamim wouldn't go Bayo vs his peach and would ditto him instead.

 

[Frihetsanka]

Meh, Tamim bracket wasn't that hard and it showed bayonetta flaws incredibly hard when he played Mkleo.

I know, but I still don't see her being Low tier (I could be wrong though). Did any Smash 4 Low tier ever top 5 a US major?

 

[Locke 06]

Reminder that Leo was the player people studied the most in order to deal with Bayo in 4, played Bayo in 4, and has some of the best SDI vs Bayonetta's moves still.

 

[**Gilgamesh**]

I know, but I still don't see her being Low tier (I could be wrong though). Did any Smash 4 Low tier ever top 5 a US major?

Depends on what you value. Early Meta probably had some mid-tiers making Top 8...maybe (remember; A crap-ton of characters were very VERY bad in early smash 4 such as Ike, Marcina, Robin, Samus, Charizard, Bowser, DK, Mewtwo, Ganondorf, Zelda, Link, Shulk, and Falco etc.. all received buffs to their and kit and look how most of them turned out at the end of the meta (only Mewtwo and Marcina were the only ones that were notably a threat... DK as well if you really want to push it.. although he was by far the least consistent due to having some incredibly bad MU against some top tiers like Rosa/ZSS/Sonic.

Now late meta smash 4 had nearly entirely Top Tiers/High Tiers (Top Tiers mostly) taking home major tournies with some surprises such as Kameme Mega-Man getting 2nd at Evo. However, it's interesting to note that Mega-Man was never able to consistently keep up such good results which has was a defining trait a lot of the Top Tiers had.

Ultimate is barely even 2 months old. We will have to see on just how balanced the game is when the meta is 6+months old, but we can already tell that there are some characters ATM that JUST CLEARLY better than the rest of the cast maybe?? sorry .

There are many more characters in Ultimate that have strong and consistent options than Smash4 ever had and this is without patches...

 

[Rizen]

I've been playing Falco some more and I'm starting to get a little pessimistic about him. I'm sure he's still more viable than Sm4sh, but that's mostly because that is a low bar. He still hurts a lot from how sluggish he is on the ground, and also from how laggy his fair is. The real kicker for him if you ask me, though, is his inability to kill. It's a BIG problem. His smash attacks are all decent (Usmash is pretty amazing actually) but his slowness makes them really hard to land. Against anyone who can keep him out it becomes a serious issue in my opinion.

How good is his Uair in this game?

Reminder that Leo was the player people studied the most in order to deal with Bayo in 4, played Bayo in 4, and has some of the best SDI vs Bayonetta's moves still.

Leo's a machine.

's looking like a solid mid-tier atm.

@ stuff: I think it was Paper's G&W that did fairly well. G&W is functional but seems underwhelming. IMO he's low tier because "somebody has to be". He doesn't stack up to my mid tiers like DK and Ridley. But to be fair, IDK much about him.

 

[Game7a1]

Recent ignition tournament occurred. Some food for thought on G&W, since some people here thinks he sucks.

The 9 moment on game 3 was hilarious.
I personally don't have that achievement unlocked myself :/

I guess I should make some comments on Maister's play against Ned in the set. Apologies for any grammatical mistakes.

• Maister makes good use of Fire as an OOS option and out of dash. In previous games, G&W didn't really have a powerful OOS option. Yes, Up-Smash and Fire were decent, but the former took too long and was still vulnerable to grabs and the latter just pushed people aside due to the windbox. In Ultimate, Fire's new frame 3 hitbox sends his opponents upwards to combo into N-air and Up-Air and potentially B-air and Oil Panic depending on the position. Maister used this fact heavily and put Ned in a juggle situation.
• Continuing from that, Ned struggled to get down thanks to Maister's Up-Airs. This allowed Maister to rack up a ton of percent.
• Maister plays a very aerial G&W. While I do think the new dash-to-anything mechanic is helpful to G&W (something I saw Dingus Joe utilize a lot more in his set against Xerom), Maister didn't use it much (only a few times, one being dash to D-Tilt to secure a stock). However, this allows him to start combos with falling N-air. In Smash 4, one could combo with falling N-air, and that's improved upon in Ultimate thanks to the lower landing lag. Maister only (I think only) did falling N-air to Jab, but G&W does have falling N-air to Tilt Attack. Nonetheless, I do think using N-air as an appraoch option is risky because it doesn't have much range, so Maister getting mileage out of that is impressive from how I see things.
• He edgeguards very little, but that might be because Greninja (game 1) and Pokemon Trainer (games 2 and 4) have good recoveries. He opted to go for D-Smash 2-framing, but that doesn't work as well in Ultimate as it did in Smash 4. Could be a placebo on my end, though. The times he did edgeguard, he mostly made them worthwhile, securing stocks and putting Ned in a poor position.
• Across all characters he played against, Maister struggled against Charizard because he chose to Chef Flare Blitz instead of shielding or doing a Smash attack. Chef can work from a far distance to interrupt Flare Blitz but not up close or a bit away. As well, Maister try to D-air Charizard's Fly at the end of game 2, but the better option would have been B-air Charizard to avoid getting hit himself. Sure, he would have to recover to the ledge and deal with Flamethrower again, but it is better than the tech chase Up-Smash that Ned did.
• Something I only now noticed in the set, but G&W's D-air carries more aerial momentum in Ultimate than in Smash 4. This helps gives him more mobility heading downwards faster. Maister used this to his advantage to create space and avoid retaliation from Ned. That said, it's still not safe on shield, and he got punished for D-airing on Ned's shield.
• He uses F-air quite a bit, but it looks like he does it to limit options on Ned's part. There were times he used F-air in an offensive manner (like hitting Ned's Ike hanging on the ledge), but when he uses F-air in the air, it was like he is covering himself with the move and limiting Ned's options to hit him in the air. That said, he did use F-air to smokescreen Ned, which is something some G&W players have thought of before, and trick him into thinking G&W was vulnerable, but he was not. This allowed him to freely use a move, and that just happened to be a 9-Hammer.
• He uses RAR B-air as a F-air of sorts, and I mean... Turtle Snapping as a forward attacking option will usually be better than Bomb Dropping or Cement Blocking someone. B-air's increased knockback help Maister gain stage control, and with that stage control, he uses Chef to rack up damage quick (he also uses Chef to catch recoveries and deal loads of damage, something I mentioned a few pages ago). Chef does well against characters who can't jump over it quickly or high enough, so him using Chef against Ike and Squirte was good on him.
• A lot of Jabs. A good amount of D-Throw throw combos. Not much to say there.
• His counterpick to FD on game 3 was a good idea. FD is a good G&W stage because he can juggle his opponents much more easily than on stages with platforms, which is something Maister mostly did in the set.
• Against Ivysuar, Maister reflects Razor Leaves with Bucket to defend himself. It's a nice tool in the matchup, and it's certainly better than shielding.

Maister really showcases some of G&W's strength in the set, but at the same time, Ned didn't catch onto some of his habits. He should have stayed more grounded so that Maister wouldn't be using so many N-airs and Fires to start a juggle situation or combo. Had he played more grounded, I believe he could have reverse some situations (he also didn't attack Maister off-stage, especially when he let go of Fire above the ledge). One thing to notice is that Ned was usually at a very high percent when KO'd (barring 3 instances). This is a problem for G&W because he can lose his stock earlier due to his opponent having max rage (something easily noticeable in the last stock of game 2).

 

[BunbUn129]

Just got around to watching Glitch 6. Glad to see my observations of Fox coming through, ZD's and Light's top 8 matches are accurate demonstrations of Fox as a character. Fox can get a nair or up tilt and convert it into combos and knockdowns that do 60%+ and/or KO, but as Nairo demonstrated you can get a couple of solid hits on him, send him offstage, and make him look like a low-tier. It's jarring how a game can swing from Fox up airing you into oblivion to him being demolished in disadvantage.

The fact that there were no other Foxes in top 32, yet 5 Wolfs warrants a comparison between the two. At the end of the day, most people will settle with Fox being the better character (and I still think he is the best overall, ZD and Light just got beaten by better players), but it raises an important question: do you value a character with more explosive results (with high highs and low lows) or a more consistent one?

Fox's inability to kill off grab and physics make him more explosive; Wolf can alter his playstyle from rush-down to camping more effectively, while having a much better throw game that can combo and kill, so while he can adapt better to different playstyles, Fox's strengths are more specialized towards rushing you down.

You can see it in how differently the Wolf mains play, from Seagull's campy play to Dexter's more aggressive Wolf throwing out nairs and bairs to Zackray's "WTF is this, I didn't know Wolf could do that!" all of which are very effective. Meanwhile, the Fox players are a lot harder to distinguish.

 

[Baby_Sneak]

I genuinely don't understand why y'all are scared of nerfs. If anything, Smash 4 patches were hella conservative on that front (such that the game determent was that Bayo and Cloud weren't toned down enough) with most of top tiers still maintaining their foundational strengths, but with some of their abusive stuff parred back (Rosa nair, Diddy's grab combos, etc). The main short coming of S4 patch was not fixing all the dysfunctional characters, but I have yet to see any characters like that right now other than the Ice climbers ( and they can stay bad in all honesty).

Fox is likely top tier, and while Ness could be high tier he also could be high-mid. In Smash 4, Ness struggled quite a bit vs swords, and while those matchups seem to have gotten easier for him they seem to be far from easy. It's possible that he's going to end up in high tier, although I'd be reluctant to say that he definitely is.

Yeah, but this is also a new game and the meta hasn't settled yet. Remember how long it took for Bayonetta to really dominate Smash 4? Took quite some time (with many people saying things like "She's not even getting top 8 at majors, she's not the best!"). It's pretty obvious that we don't have an obvious #1 character right now at least, though time will tell how balanced the game actually is.

As of the 21st of January, 2019;

There is literally no evidence whatsoever, that anyone can point to, which indicates Wario is not top tier. There is countless evidence that Wario is in fact, top tier.

Tweeks words are literally worthless in the face of his actual decisions when grand finals are on the line. If he regularly comes to the conclusion that Wario is his best chance of winning major tournaments, and he actually does it, then wario by definition is a top tier character. If he is so adamant that Wario isn't top tier and its him carrying the character, there is one and ONLY one way to prove it; win majors with any other character. If he can't do it, or refuses to even try, then Wario is top tier.

It's not unusual for top players to declare that their character sucks as a pathetic attempt at ego boosting to believe they would do even better had they used a top tier character.

just some stuff I don't agree with.

for one, for anyone that remembers smash 4's late meta (which is funny, because I'm coming to the opinion that smash 4 was actually a year old effectively. The last patch was June 2017), we know that cloud wasn't doing anything serious as a solo character. Tweek and komorikiri (maybe someone else I'm forgetting) were the only solo mains, whereas cloud was counterpick and secondary: the character. He had no type of dominance in a solo sense.

Bayo is probably the weirdest controversy in smash history.

Statiscally speaking, based on Das Koopa Stats, she did not dominate the game. She didn't have the stats of a dominant charcter. Das Koopa (for those who don't know him/her, they used to provide tournament results and statistics on a consistent basis. They did a thorough breakdown on her stats, and came to the conclusion that bayo was not dominating anything).

However, her gameplan and design was incredibly bonkers that it pretty much didn't matter, since actually playing against her felt massively uneven. Witch time made you walk on egg-shells, while Witch twist was a frame 4 bonkers move that led to kills, amazing Dtilt and aerials, etc she was super dank. You could almost say, yeah bayo drained interest, but it wasn't due to her being broken; it was her design. And it's funny because I watched KJS Maister vs tyroy in combo breaker 2018, and wondered how the game could've ended if smash ultimate was pushed back to 2022. Bayo was still getting beaten regularly by mkleo and was challenged by other top players, so something was there to be discovered.

Smash 4 died in a unfortunate way, not seeing its real end game. It died due to a draining of interest, but also because of ultimate being the new game in town that takes everything smash 4 had in game mechanics and does something different that appeals to most players. Not to mention the new cast.


and onto Browny , I just have issue with the bold, bruh.

"If he regularly comes to the conclusion that Wario is his best chance of winning major tournaments, and he actually does it, then wario by definition is a top tier character."

I think that linear path is probably more geared to games of worse balance like brawl or something, but if a player can get results with their preferred character, that doesn't automatically takes them to top tier.

"If he is so adamant that Wario isn't top tier and its him carrying the character, there is one and ONLY one way to prove it; win majors with any other character. If he can't do it, or refuses to even try, then Wario is top tier."

expecting someone to have the same performance with a different character from their main is hopeful at best, and ignores factors like cohesion, muscle memory, and "fit." Hard to find examples because a lot of people have secondaries or double main or pocket, but if we told ZeRo to hop off diddy and play someone else to prove diddy was one of the lowest on the top tier list, or high tier, he would absolutely struggle in finding someone not diddy to play like diddy.

did I mis-read anything? I hate mistakes.

EDIT: grammar errors >__>

 

[Browny]

"If he regularly comes to the conclusion that Wario is his best chance of winning major tournaments, and he actually does it, then wario by definition is a top tier character."

I think that linear path is probably more geared to games of worse balance like brawl or something, but if a player can get results with their preferred character, that doesn't automatically takes them to top tier.

"If he is so adamant that Wario isn't top tier and its him carrying the character, there is one and ONLY one way to prove it; win majors with any other character. If he can't do it, or refuses to even try, then Wario is top tier."

expecting someone to have the same performance with a different character from their main is hopeful at best, and ignores factors like cohesion, muscle memory, and "fit." Hard to find examples because a lot of people have secondaries or double main or pocket, but if we told ZeRo to hop off diddy and play someone else to prove diddy was one of the lowest on the top tier list, or high tier, he would absolutely struggle in finding someone not diddy to play like diddy.

did I mis-read anything? I hate mistakes.

For that to make sense, you need to first define what a top tier is.

Define it, and then show me how as of right now, Wario doesn't fit it. The character who has won the single largest NA, and European tournament to date.

Because if you somehow manage that, I'm fairly confident I will very easily be able to use whatever logic you come up with, to instantly prove that Inkling, Peach, Chrom are all not top tier either. In which case, all we have done is move the bar of top tier down... to where Wario is... so he's top tier.

 

[BunbUn129]

For what it's worth, Das Koopa's data showed that Bayonetta's dominance was alarming strictly at the national level. His last few charts showed a clear upward trend in that regard, and at the level she was coming close to Brawl MK levels of dominance (after you adjust for the larger cast in 4 vs Brawl). Her usage at lower levels was high but nothing worse than your run-of-the-mill top tier.

Das predicted that it would take until September 2018 for her national dominance to reach ban-worthy levels, but I tuned out of the scene before summer and only came back at Ultimate's release, so I'm not sure if that panned out (though I am aware of the EVO Grand Finals debacle). It's probably a case like Brawl IC's, where the game died off before Bayonetta could truly demonstrate her power.

Not that I think it really was decisive in S4's decline, just another factor. I think S4 would've lost steam anyway, Bayonetta or not. The engine in 4 was far too limiting to sustain interest in the game.

 

[Nobie]

I've been thinking about character perception, and the subject of Smash 4 Bayonetta is perfect for this.

There are certain characters in Ultimate that are either consistently or fairly often viewed as bad, but I have to wonder if what players are really feeling is a character who's "unsatisfying to play."

Examples of this are Kirby, Sheik, Bowser Jr., and to some extent Mewtwo. Each of these characters has at least one or two top players who still feel like they're somewhere between okay to great, but a lot of their Smash 4 player base has dropped the character. MikeKirby seems to not be a Kirby. Sheik is hardly used by anyone. Etc.

The thing they all have in common is that playing with them can feel like an uphill battle, even if perhaps the matchup is actually advantageous. You put in all this work and effort, get this elaborate combo or string, but it feels like it can all get snatched away in an instant. Some of them might actually be top tiers, but they don't FEEL like top tiers. This is the perception a lot of characters have to fight to get where they're supposed to be.

That feeling...is what every character felt like against Bayonetta in Smash 4. She made playing even the strongest characters in the game seem like a low-tier struggle because of how she could make characters feel absolutely vulnerable in the areas that mattered most to them.

 

[The_Bookworm]

For what it's worth, Das Koopa's data showed that Bayonetta's dominance was alarming strictly at the national level. His last few charts showed a clear upward trend in that regard, and at the level she was coming close to Brawl MK levels of dominance (after you adjust for the larger cast in 4 vs Brawl). Her usage at lower levels was high but nothing worse than your run-of-the-mill top tier.

Das predicted that it would take until September 2018 for her national dominance to reach ban-worthy levels, but I tuned out of the scene before summer and only came back at Ultimate's release, so I'm not sure if that panned out (though I am aware of the EVO Grand Finals debacle). It's probably a case like Brawl IC's, where the game died off before Bayonetta could truly demonstrate her power.

It never really ended up being anywhere near MK levels of dominance. This is especially noted considering that Bayo's results where mostly carried by a handful of dedicated players (Salem, Zack, Mistake, Lima), while Brawl MK pretty much became the standard usage among a lot of the top players. Her results ratio in comparison to other SSB4 top tiers was also much smaller previous installments top tiers (not sure about 64 though).

Edit: Bayo's playstyle, while effective and frustrating to deal with, is pretty one-dimensional. I heavily doubt that she has more to show post-SSB4 metagame that hasn't already been shown.

 

[BunbUn129]

It never really ended up being anywhere near MK levels of dominance. This is especially noted considering that Bayo's results where mostly carried by a handful of dedicated players (Salem, Zack, Mistake, Lima), while Brawl MK pretty much became the standard usage among a lot of the top players. Her results ratio in comparison to other SSB4 top tiers was also much smaller previous installments top tiers (not sure about 64 though).

Edit: Bayo's playstyle, while effective and frustrating to deal with, is pretty one-dimensional. I heavily doubt that she has more to show post-SSB4 metagame that hasn't already been shown.

And yet those 4 players you listed didn't achieve notable results of any consistency before switching over to her. Keep in mind that Bayonetta would've very likely been much more popular had she been playable at release; if you've already invested 1.5 years into your character, you will be hesitant to switch over to a DLC character, even when they are clearly better.

Taken from Das Koopa's last character analysis write-up, you can see that the gap between Bayonetta's usage and the next best character is quite significant, and much greater than the delta between 2nd and 3rd. To be as dominant as Brawl MK, she would have to achieve 15% on the national level; since she made a huge 4.1% jump from phase 4 to 7, and was sitting at 14%, she was well on the way to doing that. Based on the numbers, yes, her usage was alarming, and even more so when you consider most of the other top characters had a 1.5 year head-start.

Here's the link to the full report:
https://intheloop837.wordpress.com/...stats-attendance-viewership-and-sponsorships/

Again, I mentioned before, usage numbers/results and viability do not strictly correlate. Rosalina's usage was quite a bit lower than her viability, same with Marth, while ZeRo was inflating Diddy's results to a certain degree, evident in the character dropping slightly after his retirement. Regardless of whether one thinks Bayonetta was over-centralizing or whatever, the fact that she didn't "dominate" or reach an arbitrary usage level associated with a different character from a different game is not enough to prove that she was or wasn't broken.

The whole thing regarding Bayonetta was less of a problem inherent in the character and more so to do with how limiting S4's engine was. I never really cared about whether or how degenerate the character was; to me she was not a problem, but rather a symptom of the actual problem. S4 was a game that encouraged OoS punishes and flow-chart combos, the vast majority of which were vertical, had counters that were stronger than they had any reason to be, and low recoveries were very difficult to contest due to safe dodges and ledge magnets. Bayonetta exhibited all of these things tuned to the maximum, even going so far as to have special knockback behavior on her combo specials.

No surprise that the devs very clearly had the intention of remedying all that in Ultimate.

 

[DavemanCozy]

No, he can open it in hitstun. I just tested it. He can also open it in hitlag, but it closes automatically once hitlag ends. Interestingly, having the dial close automatically like this also gives you full charge (Update: this only happens if you open the dial while in hitlag, not if it's open before you get hit).

Also, while I'm here:



From my understanding, it's not really a mod in the traditional sense. It's a program run on an Arduino that's plugged into the Switch and treated as a second controller. As such, it affords you some degree of control over what the CPU does (DI etc) without having to switch between the two controllers while using frame-by-frame the way I usually do whenever I try to test something that requires P2 input.

this is what I mean when Shulk is just so unknown lol. I got that info about switching monados mid-hitstun in the discord, I think they must've meant before getting hit it won't work...

Thanks for clearing that up.

 

[The_Bookworm]

And yet those 4 players you listed didn't achieve notable results of any consistency before switching over to her. Keep in mind that Bayonetta would've very likely been much more popular had she been playable at release; if you've already invested 1.5 years into your character, you will be hesitant to switch over to a DLC character, even when they are clearly better.


View attachment 188039
View attachment 188040
View attachment 188041
Taken from Das Koopa's last character analysis write-up, you can see that the gap between Bayonetta's usage and the next best character is quite significant, and much greater than the delta between 2nd and 3rd. To be as dominant as Brawl MK, she would have to achieve 15% on the national level; since she made a huge 4.1% jump from phase 4 to 7, and was sitting at 14%, she was well on the way to doing that. Based on the numbers, yes, her usage was alarming, and even more so when you consider most of the other top characters had a 1.5 year head-start.

Here's the link to the full report:
https://intheloop837.wordpress.com/...stats-attendance-viewership-and-sponsorships/

Again, I mentioned before, usage numbers/results and viability do not strictly correlate. Rosalina's usage was quite a bit lower than her viability, same with Marth. Regardless of whether one thinks Bayonetta was over-centralizing or whatever, the fact that she didn't "dominate" or reach an arbitrary usage level associated with a different character from a different game is not enough to prove that she was or wasn't broken.

The whole thing regarding Bayonetta was less of a problem inherent in the character and more so to do with how limiting S4's engine was. I never really cared about whether or how degenerate the character was; to me she was not a problem, but rather a symptom of the actual problem. S4 was a game that encouraged OoS punishes and flow-chart combos, the vast majority of which were vertical, had counters that were stronger than they had any reason to be, and low recoveries were very difficult to contest due to safe dodges and ledge magnets. Bayonetta exhibited all of these things tuned to the maximum, even going so far as to have special knockback behavior on her combo specials.

It should also be noted that at phase 7, SSB4 events where more scarce and events where many top players were hosted at once became much more scarce. There was an overall lost of interest in SSB4 during that year, whether it is from the lack of global 2GG events (there was the whole Smash Masters League which showed up once, then disappeared for some reason), the increasing explosive mindset of players making previously frustrating matchup even more frustrating (Bayo, Sonic, Rosa, etc), or the eventual reveal of Ultimate. As a result, results and placements throughout 2018 were... weird to say the least. Such as ending up getting weirdest looking top 8 for EVO 2018.

To change the subject here, I am curious on what people think subjects as "top tier" here in Ultimate. From what I've seen, it is powerful characters that you can obtain success by solo maining. Since Cloud wasn't a very popular solo character in SSB4, but is still #2, is it truly a way to determine who is top tier?

 

[BunbUn129]

Even though Ultimate has the best balance yet in Smash history, I actually think solo-maining will be more relevant than in 4. Along the line of basic maths, since each smash game has had a larger roster than the previous, the usage percentages per character have naturally shrunk, especially among the top characters.

Using Brawl as an example, the questions "is my character solo-viable?" and "does my character not get destroyed vs MK?" were one and the same. Some otherwise good characters really took a hit because he countered them, eg. D3, Peach.

When you increase the roster size, and introduce better balance, solo-maining actually becomes more viable, not less (outside of the top-tier characters, who are still really good, only they don't auto-win vs half the cast). If you want to play Jigglypuff in Melee, you will have to accept that you will be fighting Fox most of the time. Either you dual-main or tough it out like Hbox. And that's before even considering the 20 characters below Puff.

With having 70+ characters, getting a good bracket and avoiding that one pesky match-up is a much safer bet. That is, unless your character doesn't like swords, because I have great news for you: there are 5 different versions of Marth who would like to see you.

 

[ARISTOS]

To change the subject here, I am curious on what people think subjects as "top tier" here in Ultimate. From what I've seen, it is powerful characters that you can obtain success by solo maining. Since Cloud wasn't a very popular solo character in SSB4, but is still #2, is it truly a way to determine who is top tier?

and probably as well, are characters that are top tier in a vacuum but become stressful to play with as brackets proceed-the nature of Limit and his recovery makes him somewhat inconsistent as a character even though he took a dookie on the majority of the cast. That inconsistency creates nerves, and nerves beget more inconsistency. It's no surprise then that Cloud mains usually had some sort of secondary as a way to "reset" the situation, even though in a truly neutral mentality Cloud would likely be fine in the MU.

And I think that's actually the strongest part of having secondaries in your back pocket-barring unwinnable MUs ( reee), secondaries give you a chance to reset your mentality and start from 0, which is important when your main just got washed in a Bo3. I don't see it as hugely important in terms of trying to turn a 50-50 into a 70-30, because unless you're well versed in the MU and character your opponent is probably even more versed in it than you. The only time I remember matchup CPs working to good effect in Smash 4 was cheese on heavies and cheese on floaties.

I think. lack of kill confrims or "inability to kill" may not be quite as bad ad it seems. Yes he can struggle to kill past like 140-150 at times, but once he gets you to arond thar he has like a insane number of ways of really effective ways to kill . Plus he can really rack up damage pretty quickly between his blaster and very strong neutral buttons

B-air, up-tilt,n-air and f-tilt near the edge. he also has a decent kill-throw which is a something he has over the other spacies.

Wolf's lack of kill confirms are not a real issue because he is almost always controlling the pace of the game and that allows him to coax you into his myriad of killing buttons that are very threatening.

 

[Ziodyne 21]

I think. lack of kill confrims or "inability to kill" may not be quite as bad ad it seems. Yes he can struggle to kill past like 140-150 at times, but once he gets you to around that area he has several really effective ways to kill you need to fear . He can really rack up damage pretty quickly by controlling the match between his blaster and very strong neutral buttons

B-air, up-tilt, n-air and f-tilt near the edge. he also has a decent kill-throw which is a something he has over the other spacies. Oh and dash attack around 170 too

Wolf does kinda lack reallt big wins outside of Zackray, but many pro-plays like Dabuz and Komo high in tier lists. ZeRo also said he thinks Wolf might be top-tier and said he may think of maining him. Larry also might start using Wolf as well he used him in HAT 49 to beat Nicko in GF

https://youtu.be/ZKF2QQZGeTcolf

Wolf still has his flaws, and I still think is still the better spacie overall. But Wolf still very strong pick now.

 

[BunbUn129]

There were 5 Wolfs in top 32 at Glitch 6, more than Palutena, Inkling, Fox and Pichu. This character does not lack results.

 

[Foie]

I guess I should make some comments on Maister's play against Ned in the set. Apologies for any grammatical mistakes.

• Maister makes good use of Fire as an OOS option and out of dash. In previous games, G&W didn't really have a powerful OOS option. Yes, Up-Smash and Fire were decent, but the former took too long and was still vulnerable to grabs and the latter just pushed people aside due to the windbox. In Ultimate, Fire's new frame 3 hitbox sends his opponents upwards to combo into N-air and Up-Air and potentially B-air and Oil Panic depending on the position. Maister used this fact heavily and put Ned in a juggle situation.
• Continuing from that, Ned struggled to get down thanks to Maister's Up-Airs. This allowed Maister to rack up a ton of percent.
• Maister plays a very aerial G&W. While I do think the new dash-to-anything mechanic is helpful to G&W (something I saw Dingus Joe utilize a lot more in his set against Xerom), Maister didn't use it much (only a few times, one being dash to D-Tilt to secure a stock). However, this allows him to start combos with falling N-air. In Smash 4, one could combo with falling N-air, and that's improved upon in Ultimate thanks to the lower landing lag. Maister only (I think only) did falling N-air to Jab, but G&W does have falling N-air to Tilt Attack. Nonetheless, I do think using N-air as an appraoch option is risky because it doesn't have much range, so Maister getting mileage out of that is impressive from how I see things.
• He edgeguards very little, but that might be because Greninja (game 1) and Pokemon Trainer (games 2 and 4) have good recoveries. He opted to go for D-Smash 2-framing, but that doesn't work as well in Ultimate as it did in Smash 4. Could be a placebo on my end, though. The times he did edgeguard, he mostly made them worthwhile, securing stocks and putting Ned in a poor position.
• Across all characters he played against, Maister struggled against Charizard because he chose to Chef Flare Blitz instead of shielding or doing a Smash attack. Chef can work from a far distance to interrupt Flare Blitz but not up close or a bit away. As well, Maister try to D-air Charizard's Fly at the end of game 2, but the better option would have been B-air Charizard to avoid getting hit himself. Sure, he would have to recover to the ledge and deal with Flamethrower again, but it is better than the tech chase Up-Smash that Ned did.
• Something I only now noticed in the set, but G&W's D-air carries more aerial momentum in Ultimate than in Smash 4. This helps gives him more mobility heading downwards faster. Maister used this to his advantage to create space and avoid retaliation from Ned. That said, it's still not safe on shield, and he got punished for D-airing on Ned's shield.
• He uses F-air quite a bit, but it looks like he does it to limit options on Ned's part. There were times he used F-air in an offensive manner (like hitting Ned's Ike hanging on the ledge), but when he uses F-air in the air, it was like he is covering himself with the move and limiting Ned's options to hit him in the air. That said, he did use F-air to smokescreen Ned, which is something some G&W players have thought of before, and trick him into thinking G&W was vulnerable, but he was not. This allowed him to freely use a move, and that just happened to be a 9-Hammer.
• He uses RAR B-air as a F-air of sorts, and I mean... Turtle Snapping as a forward attacking option will usually be better than Bomb Dropping or Cement Blocking someone. B-air's increased knockback help Maister gain stage control, and with that stage control, he uses Chef to rack up damage quick (he also uses Chef to catch recoveries and deal loads of damage, something I mentioned a few pages ago). Chef does well against characters who can't jump over it quickly or high enough, so him using Chef against Ike and Squirte was good on him.
• A lot of Jabs. A good amount of D-Throw throw combos. Not much to say there.
• His counterpick to FD on game 3 was a good idea. FD is a good G&W stage because he can juggle his opponents much more easily than on stages with platforms, which is something Maister mostly did in the set.
• Against Ivysuar, Maister reflects Razor Leaves with Bucket to defend himself. It's a nice tool in the matchup, and it's certainly better than shielding.

Maister really showcases some of G&W's strength in the set, but at the same time, Ned didn't catch onto some of his habits. He should have stayed more grounded so that Maister wouldn't be using so many N-airs and Fires to start a juggle situation or combo. Had he played more grounded, I believe he could have reverse some situations (he also didn't attack Maister off-stage, especially when he let go of Fire above the ledge). One thing to notice is that Ned was usually at a very high percent when KO'd (barring 3 instances). This is a problem for G&W because he can lose his stock earlier due to his opponent having max rage (something easily noticeable in the last stock of game 2).

That was a very interesting showcase of , he definitely has some great options. Losing his dtilt hurts him, but he gains ftilt as a buffed kill move. Chef is more usable now, turtle seems to be closer to brawl than smash 4 in effectiveness. Uair is very nice, as remains Nair. I feel like the main thing holding game & watch back is his fair. If they gave the bomb a box-like disjointed hitbox with good knock back (albeit less range), I could see him going places. I feel like that's the only way to fix the move, making the bombs more effective wouldn't move the needle much imo. He lacks aerial kill options, which is kind of a big deal considering much of his game plan involves knocking people into the air and keeping them there.

 

[Rizen]

To change the subject here, I am curious on what people think subjects as "top tier" here in Ultimate. From what I've seen, it is powerful characters that you can obtain success by solo maining. Since Cloud wasn't a very popular solo character in SSB4, but is still #2, is it truly a way to determine who is top tier?

That's not bad criteria. When I made my list of top tiers they all had overtuned options and maybe a slight flaw but not much wrong with them. Looking at results, maybe Wolf should be top tier; he's not dropping off like I predicted.
Something to note about these weekly results...

Spoiler: Here's all of the weekly full results

https://smashboards.com/threads/ssbu-tournament-results.464865/

(Parana Plant=the Belmonts together)

AllWeeklyResults

is clones are essentially the same character but their results are split between them. Characters like Peach and Daisy should be added together for an accurate picture.

 

[Ziodyne 21]

That's not bad criteria. When I made my list of top tiers they all had overtuned options and maybe a slight flaw but not much wrong with them. Looking at results, maybe Wolf should be top tier; he's not dropping off like I predicted.
Something to note about these weekly results...

Spoiler: Here's all of the weekly full results

https://smashboards.com/threads/ssbu-tournament-results.464865/

(Parana Plant=the Belmonts together)

is clones are essentially the same character but their results are split between them. Characters like Peach and Daisy should be added together for an accurate picture.

That's not bad criteria. When I made my list of top tiers they all had overtuned options and maybe a slight flaw but not much wrong with them. Looking at results, maybe Wolf should be top tier; he's not dropping off like I predicted.
Something to note about these weekly results...

Spoiler: Here's all of the weekly full results

https://smashboards.com/threads/ssbu-tournament-results.464865/

(Parana Plant=the Belmonts together)

is clones are essentially the same character but their results are split between them. Characters like Peach and Daisy should be added together for an accurate picture.

I not sure who mentioned it, But kinda feels like a kinda a shuffled-up Smash 4 (post-patched) when taking in a lot of his pros and cons, and how he seems to play now. Lets see,
Extremely strong projectile that is considered among the best if not the-best projectile in the game.. check,
very strong buttons, check...( including the same swiping f-air that can be chained into itself multiple times at low percents lol). check
Can rack up damage very fast but at times struggle to kill until getting opponent past certian high percent thresholds (like 140-150+) check
Able to control the pace of most matchups very well, easily alternate between playing strong zoning-spacing and strong rushdown offensive pressure,check

The differences are Wolf does not have the god-tier recovery of Sheik, and he forgoes the kill-setups Sheik had for more raw kill power and better kill buttons overall.
Yes I am aware Wolf cant really play and chase offstage like Sheik can.., but the reality Smash 4 Sheik was actually not really that good at typical offstage gimping anyone with decent recoveries due to the low knockback of most of her air-moves, her strength in foiling recovery attempts came more from ledgetapping and staying close to the edge to to things like confirm needles into bouncing fish. Wolf also cannot really to much offstage, but has pretty good ledgetrapping tools instead

 

[Game7a1]

That was a very interesting showcase of , he definitely has some great options. Losing his dtilt hurts him, but he gains ftilt as a buffed kill move. Chef is more usable now, turtle seems to be closer to brawl than smash 4 in effectiveness. Uair is very nice, as remains Nair. I feel like the main thing holding game & watch back is his fair. If they gave the bomb a box-like disjointed hitbox with good knock back (albeit less range), I could see him going places. I feel like that's the only way to fix the move, making the bombs more effective wouldn't move the needle much imo. He lacks aerial kill options, which is kind of a big deal considering much of his game plan involves knocking people into the air and keeping them there.

Well, G&W does have aerial KO options. His B-air got buffed knockback (but over time, it will get stale), and his D-air also got buffed knockback, allowing both to be KO options. F-air can KO, but the timer holds it back (the bomb does activate sooner on the ground than in the air, but one cannot just F-air just above the ground expecting the bomb to explode because it won't). I'd give his new F-air more time before passing judgement since applications and counterplay have not fully developed yet.

D-Tilt didn't really disappear. The reduced range is compensated by greater knockback and damage. D-Tilt is one of the few moves that really benefits from dash-to-action to make up the reduced range. It also sends opponents at a lower angle compared to F-Tilt, allowing to set up for edgeguarding, so it still has some uses.

The only move that I think is underwhelming in G&W's kit is his new Up-Tilt. While it is another move that benefits from the dash-to-action mechanic, its reduced range and disjoint (even factoring in the new invulnerability on his hands) severely hampers its use as an anti-air and as a way to counter ledge getup and ledge jump. It cannot combo from D-Throw anymore, which is another negative. It's still a decent combo starter (much like Up-Smash still is), and the two hits connect better, but I think it's a move that goes both unnoticed and underused.

 

[Rizen]

I not sure who mentioned it, But kinda feels like a kinda shuffled-up Smash 4 (post-patched) when taking in a lot of his pros and cons, and how he seems to play now. Lets see,
Extremely strong projectile that is considered among the best if not the-best projectile.. check,
very strong buttons, check...( including the f-air swipes that can be linked into itself multiple times lol).
Can rack up damage very fast put could struggle to kill past certian high percent thresholds...check
Able to control the pace of most matchups very well, easily alternate between zoning-spacing and rushdown offensive pressure,check

The differences are Wolf does not have the god-tier recovery of Sheik, and he trades in the kill-setups Sheik had for more raw kill power and better kill buttons overall.
Yes I am aware Wolf cant really play and chase offstage lile Sheik can.., but the reality Smash 4 Sheik was actually not really that good at gimping offstage, due to the low knockback of most of her moves, her strength in foiling recovery attempts acame more from ledgetapping and staying close to the edge to to things like confirm needles into bouncing fish. Wolf also cannot really to much offstage, but has pretty good ledgetrapping tools

I don't think Wolf's nearly as oppressive as Sheik was but appreciate the comparison.

I'd say 's fire arrows are at least as good as Wolf's blaster. Blaster has more range (than uncharged arrows), more damage, bayonet and a bigger hitbox. But arrows go a good distance uncharged, can be charged to wait out shields for mind games, fall a bit with gravity, chain into aerial attacks like Nair, can't be absorbed by magnet/bucket, and uncharged are more spammable. Uncharged arrow's frame data is shoots f14 last a mere 37 frames vs blaster's shoots 15 and lasts 49 frames. Arrows outspam most projectiles (sans pikmin), including blaster.

 

[Thinkaman]

First, shoutouts to The_Bookworm for linking one of the more interesting weekly matches we've seen and Game7a1 for writing the first half of my post for me. Maister is able to form a workable neutral out of bair (no surprise), but is able to get enough reward from nairs and ftilt (kills) to suddenly have a coherent gameplan.

I do agree though that I've seen Ned play better, and that he wasn't really adapting to Maister as much/as quickly as I'd expect at this level. There were some ledge decisions that let Maister get away with murder. Either way I could totally buy that G&W is not the worst character now, and "get" Ultimate G&W a lot more now.

It occurred to me that G&W is the only aerially agile character with a reflector, and is more disjointed that other such characters as well.


Second, Wolf is definitely doing fine results-wise. I expect him to drop over time and still be fine.


Third, I'm a broken record here but "correcting" win-rates for roster size is nonsense. There is nothing relative about this relationship in the vast majority of contexts that we apply it to.

• Removing Pichu from Melee does not make the tournament scene better, more varied, or more balanced. (It does nothing.)
• Adding (Melee) Pichu to Brawl does not make the tournament scene worse, less varied, or less balanced. (It does nothing.)

By the logic of this flawed lens, a game with 1000 characters where everyone in top 64 has a different main is still a disappointing 6.4% representation rate.

It's important to always keep in mind when discussing balance that it is a subtractive design element. It only exists as the absence of something, namely, the negative side-effects of content variety. The entire point of "balance" is to permit variety to exist.

Judging balance for balance's sake, aka strictly criticizing in comparison not to other experiences but to the hypothetical and imaginary idea of what variety you could have, only has utility in a few cases:

1. Considering how many options are "traps" for new players.
2. Evaluating randomized formats, like draft modes.
3. Hiring staff whose responsibilities include balance work.

These are important matters worth consideration, but generally outside the scope of our discussion here. (Of non-random competitive play results and theory.)


Fourth, win-rates are super overrated as a balance metric. Simple player count is almost always more useful. (Note that any "win-counting" weighted performance measure like Das Koopa's numbers are far more similar to the latter than the former.)

If you enter a 32-man bracket against 30 Chroms and a Yoshi, Yoshi is not the balance problem even if he wins the event. Again, the "point" of balance is variety, and that means variety of the actual player experience.

Of course, the limits of this metric are immediately obvious. Playstyle and accessibility is a huge confounder. Last I checked, Engineer is likely the worst character in TF2 but the easily the most played at most levels of play. He's fun, easy, less stressful, and appeals to a specific-but-populous personality type. You also have characters played below their performance level because of how esoteric they are. This is why Smash 4 had way more Falcon players than Rosa players. And in Ultimate, all exciting new characters are probably being over-represented initially--no surprise.

Trends in player count tends to be one of the most singularly useful stats. Player elasticity is not zero: people switch to better characters.


Fifth, can we also get rid of the notion that DLC characters are at some crippling meta disadvantage. I mean sure, Day 1 characters aren't going to be raking in the Dubyas (at least we hope not), but being singularly at the center of the community's spotlight after a massive hype-buildup and marketing blitz does wonders for accelerating a character's adoption and development.

Everyone and their dog is going to be playing PP and Joker, and within two weeks 99% of the community will know more about them than the Miis or Rosalina.

 

[Lavani]

Of course, the limits of this metric are immediately obvious. Playstyle and accessibility is a huge confounder. Last I checked, Engineer is likely the worst character in TF2 but the easily the most played at most levels of play. He's fun, easy, less stressful, and appeals to a specific-but-populous personality type. You also have characters played below their performance level because of how esoteric they are. This is why Smash 4 had way more Falcon players than Rosa players. And in Ultimate, all exciting new characters are probably being over-represented initially--no surprise.

This probably isn't the best use of thread space and doesn't contest the Engie-Falcon comparison (which I actually rather like), but

Spoiler: tf2 stuff with loose smash tie-in

How recent is this view? I haven't looked into TF2 in a few years (and haven't played it seriously in far longer), but Engineer was powerful at a casual level for a variety of reasons (Sentry is powerful and difficult to cope with without either a competent demo, soldier, or medic+pocket, especially at low level play; Dispensers are arguably better at maintaining an unorganized 12~16 man team than a single Medic; Teleporters tend to "guide the sheep" who may be prone to otherwise ignoring their objective), and even in top level competitive play a level 3 sentry had enough value in defending a final point for Engineer to see frequent use in a last stand situation. Future weapons added to the character such as the Wrangler and Pomson 6000 were ridiculously powerful and banned competitively immediately on introduction (though apparently the latter's been unbanned in some leagues in recent years?).

Pyro's always the character I've heard claimed as the worst, and I'd mainly liken him to Kirby; he is both outranged and outmaneuvered by everyone else, and has the lowest damage output of a flanking class despite this (even a stock Revolver Spy would beat Pyro 1v1 if they begin shooting at the same time years ago, and if I'm reading patch notes correctly Pyro's damage has been further nerfed since then). However, the simplicity of aiming the Flamethrower also effectively makes him the Sm4sh Dedede of TF2; I'd imagine most anyone who has heard of TF2 has heard of the W+M1 meme, but at a low level of gameplay it's still an effective enough playstyle that the Pyro has been the target of multiple nerfs over the years, despite the extent of the character's high level usage being "switch to this for 8 seconds when you absolutely have to airblast an ubercharge off your team's final point and then switch back to Scout/Soldier/whatever immediately after". It's a character design that's mostly useless in competitive play but ranges from powerful to oppressive at casual levels (i.e. >99% of the playerbase), therefore it gets the short end of the stick for the greater good.

for those uninterested, tl;dr sm4sh dedede died for little Timmy's sins

I don't think Wolf's nearly as oppressive as Sheik was but appreciate the comparison.

I'd say 's fire arrows are at least as good as Wolf's blaster. Blaster has more range (than uncharged arrows), more damage, bayonet and a bigger hitbox. But arrows go a good distance uncharged, can be charged to wait out shields for mind games, fall a bit with gravity, chain into aerial attacks like Nair, can't be absorbed by magnet/bucket, and uncharged are more spammable. Uncharged arrow's frame data is shoots f14 last a mere 37 frames vs blaster's shoots 15 and lasts 49 frames. Arrows outspam most projectiles (sans pikmin), including blaster.

Though I'm not necessarily contesting this claim either, it's important to note Wolf's blaster has a significant advantage in being transcendent on top of being a massive, painful, abusable projectile. Fire arrows may be more spammable, but they lose out to aerials and clank on other attacks. Wolf's Blaster ignores all of that and can't be bruteforced through.

 

[Diddy Kong]

Diddy's Banana is still the best projectile I feel. Sorry not sorry.

Shadow Ball and Charge Shot are also really good now.