Official Competitive Character Impressions 2.0

[Rocketjay8]

People are super underrating this time around, in my opinion.
While it's true some things got hit (Mechakoopa dying when hitting a shield blows), to say he is otherwise unchanged feels wrong to me.

For starters, using clown kart no longer rids him of his second jump. This is huge, as it lets him stall below stage rather well, or allows him to recover rather high. Mixing up my recovery to get back to stage is really fun.

Speaking of clown kart, the super armor on it is actually noticeable this time around. Sometimes I find myself getting janked out of it though, but overall it feels better to use. It still combos like crazy, giving a great burst of damage if he manages to hit you with it. RamHam (sibe b into up b hammer) is still a great kill confirm that helps him close out stocks. The spinout also kills now! Also, of course, the clown kart hurtbox takes priorty over 's hitbox, which is huge.

Mechakoopa is still a really good pressure tool that helps Jr. approach when placed behind him. The added bonus of MK sticking to people before exploding can let pull off some funny stuff, like stick > fair > explode. I do wish deploying it were a little faster though.

Cannonball actually got really good changes, and what was absolutely my least used move for suddenly changed to a really good ranged pressure tool for . It is leagues faster than 's Cannonball, in both startup and endlag, as well as charging it. It has 2 hitboxes, 1 as it's flying through the air, and another upon landing. This move does great shield damage. Trying to shield both hits will absolutely deal massive damage to your shield, if not breaking it outright. You can now have 2 cannonballs out at once, a huge change as it allows to set up a pretty formidable wall, with MK on the ground and one or two cannonballs hurtling toward you. At the end of it's travel time, it begin to dip and if it falls offstage it can be used for some pretty great gimps. My favorite is using it like 's Plasma Breath to clip right past the ledge and hit anyone who's trying to recover. I'm not trying to say it's the best projectile or anything, no way. There's still plenty better. But Cannonball is absolutely usable.

His aerials are probably the most unchanged outside of the universal landing lag buffs, which I'm perfectly fine with. Dair still does great damage, fair and bair still autocancel, sh drawback fair still being a great spacing tool, bair still coming out relatively fast and still boasting great kill power, and uair still sets up for great juggles. Nair, however, now autocancels. Being able to cross up shields with it is pretty great, and is a pretty good OoS option.

His grabs was absolutely changed for the better. Losing range means nothing now that it's an actual grab now, with uthrow comboing into several uairs and finally a bair/fair. Dthrow does 15% and the angle sends them at the perfect spot for edgeguarding, bthrow can kill at the ledge at around 130%. Fthrow is still... there.

Finally, his normals. Jab, oh lord, this move. I love it so much. It does great damage. you can actually land the finishing punch, unlike 's garbage jab. It can kill at the ledge. A move that is as non-committal as a jab can kill. It is especially scary when you're hanging onto ledge and he's waiting for you to make a move.

I know I'm listing a lot of good for , and it may seem like I'm trying to say he's a "secret top tier" or something but know that isn't the case. He does have a good bit holding him back (up b still gimpable as all hell, stronger zoners/projectile characters make it difficult for him to do things, etc.), but even then I just can't say he's 2nd worst, bottom 3, or bottom 5 even. That's just my 2 cents though.

Mecha Koopa can still be picked up by you when it hits their shield though.

 

[ARISTOS]

This fella on Twitter has assembled a couple of handy charts on overall character performance/placings at regionals and nationals in the first month. I figure it's worth sharing here since it gives a good picture of how characters are trending right now.

So - here we are! Notable Feats, Event Wins Only, and National & Regional Scores for the characters from December 7th-December 31st. Most of the cast appears somewhat viable, but a few top contenders have emerged. pic.twitter.com/70pqqZAIMD

— Barnard's Loop (@LoopBarnard) January 4, 2019

Das Koopa posts here from time to time

 

[Repli.Cant]

Mecha Koopa can still be picked up by you when it hits their shield though.

Yes it can. I never said you couldn't? Picking it up can be good but depends on if you're close enough to even do that the opponent picks it up for free.

 

[FishkeeperTimmay!]

Dark Pit's arrows are non-trivially faster. I don't know the speed params for Pit's, but Dark Pit's in ult compared to 4 are about 8% faster uncharged and 33% faster fully charged, and they were already faster than Pit's in 4.

Damage ranges:
3.2% - 8.6% (1v1: 3.84% - 10.32%)
5.5% - ~14% (1v1: 6.6% - ~16.8%)

I'm also of the opinion Pittoo's newly buffed arrows have more value now when it's on a character with an already stellar edgeguard game. I feel Pit loses more from not having a good arrow for onstage.

That pretty much nails it on the head. I almost never rely on arrows to edge guard when I have such good aerials, multiple jumps and an Up-B that goes for miles. The extra damage and speed of the arrows give D.Pit that edge. Electroarm sends horizontally just sweetens the deal.

 

[Omastar]

I personally think Ness is gonna stay high tier especially because there are a lot of reallly strong Ness players out there right now and his kit is just so good. There’s a ton of Ness discussion a couple pages back if you’re interested

Also I was watching a video (I think it was Zero’s can’t remember) and Mii Swordfighter apparently has a ridiculous kill confirm. It’s the tornado into up b and it can kill at like 60 percent (he was doing it in training mode so no DI but still). I wonder how that’ll effect his placement in the meta

I think there's about 2-3 pages of Ness talk on pages 26-29 if you're interested. Just use Ctrl+F.



I spent a good chunk of time with the Icies last night. They're just not worth it. Though not everything is terrible.

As someone else mentioned about their frame data, they just feel sluggish and frankly, unfinished. It feels like the Dev. team had explicit instructions to bring the hammer down hard on partner characters to the point of ridiculousness.

A lot of it stems from your AI's incompetence. Things like prioritizing move reflection (copying you) over saving their own life when they're close. Example: I was standing near the edge, partner was off stage. I let out a Neutral B to hinder my opponents approach, my partner was just shy of grabbing the stages edge, but close enough to copy me, and did... As a result they missed the ledge, their own icicle bounced off the stage, and by the time the move was finished they were well under the edge, incapable of saving themselves anymore and plunged to a useless death. I was at 60% and had to finish out the stock at half power.

I get that similar-partner character Rosalina was an issue in Sm4sh, but it seems the Dev. team forgot that unlike Luma, I don't just get a new Nana when she dies. Her AI has to be good.

I frequently found myself having to jump off stage to rescue her because she decided not to use Side+B to recover and would rather make due with airdodges and a meager Up+B, which would not have made it.

That said, the Icies have some good moves on the ground when they're together. Like the priority of their hammers, their jab, their Side+B, uptilt. It also wasn't too difficult for me to use their Down+B on 100%+ folks and freeze them, leaving them ripe for a killing... Except that 9/10 times once they're frozen they're JUST out of range of your smash attacks, meaning I had to shuffle forward a step or two, very quickly, THEN smash them; hoping that they didn't release.

There's several things like that, that just feel like they intentionally made it difficult for the player to succeed with the duo. It'd be like DK burying someone with his head-bonk but not being able to reach them with his mega punch unless he shuffles forward a bit. It should be a combo.

There's other things, like the DDD Gordo-esque properties of their Icicles (absurd)....

It's like the guy in charge of putting together the Icies DESPISED them. "Y'know that f-air that gives them a nice high priority, good ranged, powerful attack to approach with? Lets add tons of lag time to the front of it!"

Bottom line, I feel like they have all the right parts needed to succeed. They're just assembled in a way that really punishes the player. They need to severely buff them to make babysitting Nana worthwhile.

As it stands now... nah, just... no.

Thanks both of y'all, missed it a few pages back. Guess thats what happens when you miss a day or two in this thread haha

 

[Ghidorah14]

Looking for current thoughts on lucario and meta knight, as I’m seriously considering maining them and dropping my old smash 4 mains.

IMO MK seems strong, especially now that edge guarding is actually a thing in ultimate. Lucario feels so rewarding to play now that they changed how aura works. He’s super fast and again, the increase in range of some of his normals is great.

 

[Nobie]

The more I look into the Mewtwo community, the more I worry that it's spiraling towards a date that befell the Smash 4 Ryu community as Emblem Lord mentioned: overemphasis on combos at the expense of exploring Mewtwo's neutral game.

Mewtwo lost some tools, it's true. Side B isn't a movement option, down tilt combos are riskier, and the loss of air dodge attacks changes how the character works. But I'm seeing mains of Mewtwo say that its neutral is BAD, and the only way I could see that being the case is if players thought "neutral" meant "throwing out random attacks and hoping they combo into big damage."

Maybe I'm not seeing something, but I find it hard to believe that Mewtwo's neutral is anything short of great because it has the tools to go toe to toe in almost any scenario—the only exception is how mad Mewtwo is at fighting super up-close, which was a weakness in Smash 4 too.

All of Mewtwo's attacks have incredible utility, and it feels like Mewtwo traded a few overwhelming options for a more even spread that rewards smart usage of its entire kit. Even the fact that differently charged Shadow balls (as opposed to just fully charged or uncharged) have uses makes the character feel like the sky's the limit in neutral. I understand that losing neutral is extra scary because of how big and vulnerable Mewtwo is after getting hit, but it still doesn't seem enough to me to downgrade it's toolkit.

 

[Foie]

Is it me or does seem destined to be low tier to low-mid at best? She received a few QoL improvements, but none of them seem to overcome her significant flaws that placed her at the bottom of smash 4.

Her frame data hasn't really improved with regards to startup, still has basically the same range and priority. Air speed and landing lag got a nice bump, but so did everyone else's. Ground speed is slow as molasses still. Airdodge changes help her edgegaurding yes, but also hurt her movement options in neutral. Ground game is still the definition of mediocre, air game lacks seriously in advantage state. Grab game is mediocre gives just some damage and better stage position.

Her specials aren't drastically better. Rollout went from hot garbage to just garbage. Sing requires a HARD read but it's at least somewhat usable. Pound got improved a bit but is still mostly a slow defensive option. Rest had it's ko power nerfed with the higher ceilings, and the quicker recovery still doesn't prevent her from losing a stock sometimes after a successful rest kill. So far her best setup into rest is falling uair at certain percents, which can be seen coming from a mile away.

She just seems like a character that struggles only succeeds in a game of defensive keep away, and then struggles to find much advantage on neutral wins. If she fails to gimp offstage, she struggles to kill with only bair, hard reads, or predictable rest setups.

I love the puff, but in a game where every swordie excells in speed and disjoint, as do many other characters, I just don't see her doing so well. I think she'd need melee level rest (not gonna happen), melee air speed (also not likely), or some drastic rework of her tools for her to be viable. She just doesn't have the huge reward in advantage state she needs...

Am I off base here?

 

[Ghidorah14]

The more I look into the Mewtwo community, the more I worry that it's spiraling towards a date that befell the Smash 4 Ryu community as Emblem Lord mentioned: overemphasis on combos at the expense of exploring Mewtwo's neutral game.

Mewtwo lost some tools, it's true. Side B isn't a movement option, down tilt combos are riskier, and the loss of air dodge attacks changes how the character works. But I'm seeing mains of Mewtwo say that its neutral is BAD, and the only way I could see that being the case is if players thought "neutral" meant "throwing out random attacks and hoping they combo into big damage."

Maybe I'm not seeing something, but I find it hard to believe that Mewtwo's neutral is anything short of great because it has the tools to go toe to toe in almost any scenario—the only exception is how mad Mewtwo is at fighting super up-close, which was a weakness in Smash 4 too.

All of Mewtwo's attacks have incredible utility, and it feels like Mewtwo traded a few overwhelming options for a more even spread that rewards smart usage of its entire kit. Even the fact that differently charged Shadow balls (as opposed to just fully charged or uncharged) have uses makes the character feel like the sky's the limit in neutral. I understand that losing neutral is extra scary because of how big and vulnerable Mewtwo is after getting hit, but it still doesn't seem enough to me to downgrade it's toolkit.

I think the reason they’re upset is because the reward of winning neutral doesnt outweigh the risks of losing neutral like it did in 4. He also lacks a good way to get people off him, so it hurts extra bad when he can’t swing the momentum quite as hard in return.

 

[Rizen]

Even the fact that differently charged Shadow balls (as opposed to just fully charged or uncharged) have uses

Can you expand on this?

One thing I forgot to mention about is his recovery got nerfed. Bomb recoveries are a thing for long distances but very situational. If Link gets Nair-ed offstage there's a good chance he won't make it to the ledge. As a posative, his upB has great defensive hitboxes and power but you can drop down on it.

 

[MartinAW4]

Looking for current thoughts on lucario and meta knight, as I’m seriously considering maining them and dropping my old smash 4 mains.

IMO MK seems strong, especially now that edge guarding is actually a thing in ultimate. Lucario feels so rewarding to play now that they changed how aura works. He’s super fast and again, the increase in range of some of his normals is great.

Lucario looks very strong in this game after all the buffs he got. He got the biggest speed increase among all characters, frame data and range buffs, Up B and counter end lag got significantly reduced, Force Palm kills super early and cannot be blocked and he can now edgeguard with Aura Sphere charge.

Just yesterday Tsu, the world's best Lucario played against Lea, the world's best Greninja in Grand Finals and managed to win. Here's the game, showing a lot of top level play for both characters, both of which got significant buffs from Smash 4 and have their best players in Japan, so the west is not well exposed to their meta yet:

 

[FishkeeperTimmay!]

IMO MK seems strong, especially now that edge guarding is actually a thing in ultimate. Lucario feels so rewarding to play now that they changed how aura works. He’s super fast and again, the increase in range of some of his normals is great.

Oh Lucario... let me tell you, he seriously tilts people.

The combined Aura + Rage make it so that you are really rewarded for not dying. It doesn't even matter which stock you are on, either. Zero and M2K both ***** about it. Many players perceive it as a way of getting rewarded for poor play. I personally think its a neat mechanic that rewards players who can handle the pressure of balancing on a knife. The mechanic allows you really press a lead, or make ridiculous comebacks. But it does mean that when you are getting gimped at low %'s, you never really get to play your game.

At his core, he has solid frame data and good combo options, so its not like his kit is totally reliant on %. His tilts cover lots of space and really enjoy the new dash mechanics. Having a command grab and a good projectile at this % means he generally always has options.

Lucario @ higher %'s all of a sudden has to be treated like a fast Ganon with a projectile that is more intimating than a Samus Charged Shot. Lucario can be a stock behind, but you only need to land a few solid hits, so your opponent can't just fish for stray hits with unsafe buttons or they can end up dead. He just goes from a solid character to a deadly one. This is where he can really shine; if you can really push your advantage when you are at higher %'s you can really feel oppressive.

Overall, a super solid character worthy of being a dedicated main. Just be ready for the "Aura is jank" johns from your opponents offline.

 

[Thinkaman]

--but he's the only one in the game that has a 6 frame window of vulnerability when he snaps on the ledge with a directional air-dodge. Making the directional air-dodge completely useless for him for recovering.

Um, what? Does not replicate. I get the exact same behavior on Mac air dodge ledgesnap as every other recovery--2 frames vulnerability below ledge, 0 frames above ledge.

I'm also skeptical on claims that Mac's tilts are now less safe on shield. The only timing change was +4 frames on d-tilt, which merely cancels out the +4 frames to all shieldgrabs.

Mac's core game is in a much better spot. This is a world where shields and grabs are out, while hitboxes and dodges are in. He still has a peerless ground moveset, and now gets to apply it out of his medal-winning runspeed. His odds of getting out of disadvantage with his stock intact have gone from very low to "a little bit higher than very low." And like Lucario, more stocks is favorable to consistent performance of his high-volatility playstyle.

It's not all roses though--don't get me wrong, Mac is almost surely in the bottom 30% of the roster currently. He's just too volatile, and cannot full hop onto the platforms of more than half of the common tournament stages in Smash Ultimate. But volatility goes both ways, and there's no way Mac is #74 as long as the other stages exist.

 

[Ghidorah14]

I just wish he retained his combo game.

 

[J0eyboi]

Um, what? Does not replicate. I get the exact same behavior on Mac air dodge ledgesnap as every other recovery--2 frames vulnerability below ledge, 0 frames above ledge.

He means before the airdodge snaps to ledge. Every character has at least 1 frame of vulnerability before their airdodge can snap to ledge, most have 3, and Mac has 6.

 

[Thinkaman]

He means before the airdodge snaps to ledge. Every character has at least 1 frame of vulnerability before their airdodge can snap to ledge, most have 3, and Mac has 6.

Ah. The way he phrased it, I thought we were talking about the ledge-snap itself--the part that would actually be plausible to hit independent of spacing or mixup.

This pre-snap window is not especially relevant to anything. The entire value of a directional air-dodge to recovery is as a mixup--an alternative to your normal recovery that can be done low or high. Always using it as a brute-force range extension is never going to have any value--you're open to getting 2 framed as any character, Mac or not.

There are plenty of opponent actions that DAD is going to get past. It's an attractive alternative to Counter when you believe the opponent intends to challenge your frame 8 side-b. (It is invincible faster, and doesn't lose to counters or block) Done low, it provides a last-chance alternative to up-b, which forces a vaguely 50:50 situation where most commitments to 2-frame one closes the door on punishing the other.

DAD is a pretty mediocre recovery option--it's a weak card to play. But when your existing hand is a 2 of clubs, 3 of diamonds, and a coupon for RC Cola, one man's junk is another man's treasure.

 

[BunbUn129]

Question asked about MK and I will say i have been warming up to the character recently. Once I downgraded dash attack and grab to "just some neutral options," I've realized he's far less constricted this time around. Hear me out: he's more competitively viable than Smash 4 but there are a few unfortunate issues that might cause him to fall short of top-tier.

I haven't gone through all the numbers, but MK may very likely have the lowest landing lag total across the cast has one of the lowest landing lag totals; bair has only 11 and is a kill move. It's especially important for fair. In S4 fair was a pretty bad move even after they cut 4 frames of landing lag; it hit on frame 9, had 16 frames of landing lag, and 30 frames of ending lag, compared to Brawl where it hit on frame 6, and while it had only 1 fewer frame of landing lag, it could AC very early.

When talking about Brawl to S4 nerfs, gliding and tornado spam being removed get thrown around a lot, but don't forget fair also got gutted and I believe that nerf hamstrung his neutral. In a game like Smash, being able to throw out a frontal hitbox safely while moving forward or retreating is invaluable. If that hitbox can combo (Sheik) or kill (Marth) or both (Mewtwo) then that's scary. Top MK's in S4 (esp. Leo) empty-hopped a lot in neutral because swinging fair wasn't worth it.

Meta Knight's neutral isn't good. It's great. Mobility. He's the only multi-jumper to not have bad air speed (barring Jiggs but idk where she stands, plus we don't need to bring up her grounded mobility). Fair has 10 frames of lag on landing, and unlike other sword characters, the hitboxes are static. An opponent can parry but unless MK spaced it very poorly, he should be able to throw out a d tilt. I'm still waiting on hitbox data but d tilt seems to have more range. Idk. Same with fair. I'm fine with losing some dash attack punishes if it means I can actually use SH aerials. You know, like everyone else. They really went overboard with the lag on S4 MK's aerials.

You might think I'm exaggerating. But I'm overjoyed that MK has a forward air. I can space with it, land with it, edge-guard with it, combo off of the first 2 hits. It's good.

Edit: issues (and minor fixes):

Active frames. Those are at a premium for MK. The precision this character requires is rather off-putting. They gutted his active frames after Brawl and the issue persists. I have more observations but I'd rather wait for hitbox and other data before saying anything else about the character.

 

[Game7a1]

He's the only multi-jumper to not have bad air speed (barring Jiggs but idk where she stands, plus we don't need to bring up her grounded mobility). .

Just a minor correction, but Ridley has a (marginally) better airspeed than Meta Knight but slightly worse air acceleration. I know he doesn't have as many jumps as Meta Knight or Puff, but he still has multiple jumps.

 

[Ghidorah14]

I love the new tornado as well. Edge guards higher recoveries, nice damage, and it’s fast too!

If someone is content to SH swing in your face, a quick tornado shuts it down.

 

[Thinkaman]

I'm growing increasingly pessimistic about . What is there long-term plan, once the game speeds up and every matchup knows how to get around their bag of tricks? I don't think fair/bair and d-tilt can sustain them, not with the slowness, the awful grab, the terrible recovery, poor OoS, ect. I see them as the Smash 4 Bowser Jr. of this game, essentially.

I haven't gone through all the numbers, but MK may very likely have the lowest landing lag total across the cast;

 

[Nobie]

Can you expand on this?

One thing I forgot to mention about is his recovery got nerfed. Bomb recoveries are a thing for long distances but very situational. If Link gets Nair-ed offstage there's a good chance he won't make it to the ledge. As a posative, his upB has great defensive hitboxes and power but you can drop down on it.

Full Shadow Ball only combos at low percents, and one you get to mid/high percents, it's better to throw like a half-charged one if your goal is combos. Full Shadow Ball still has the heavy shield damage and kill power and all that, so it's up to you to decide what to use.

 

[Nate1080]

I'm growing increasingly pessimistic about . What is there long-term plan, once the game speeds up and every matchup knows how to get around their bag of tricks? I don't think fair/bair and d-tilt can sustain them, not with the slowness, the awful grab, the terrible recovery, poor OoS, ect. I see them as the Smash 4 Bowser Jr. of this game, essentially.

Tell that to the Belmont Character section. They kind of over hype them. I’ve played them since release, they definitely have flaws with their poor frame data and speed and, like K Rool atm, almost everyone already knows how to play around their gimmick and get in...or rather cheese them like Smash 4 Little Mac.

Tbh, I’m shocked people still consider them high tier.

 

[trickroom]

I'm growing increasingly pessimistic about . What is there long-term plan, once the game speeds up and every matchup knows how to get around their bag of tricks? I don't think fair/bair and d-tilt can sustain them, not with the slowness, the awful grab, the terrible recovery, poor OoS, ect. I see them as the Smash 4 Bowser Jr. of this game, essentially.

Yeah, I feel the same way. Outside of ledgetrapping these characters dont actually have much good stuff going for them, and what is good is outweighed by the insane bad aspects. Any one of the fast-but-low-damage combo characters in this game, including the ones that aren't top tier (Sheik says hi!) can get in easily and edgeguard them easily-er. The only thing I can say that you haven't is that a more apt comparison might be to Sm4sh Pac-Man: a zoner with (essentially) no options against shield who has to work very very hard for what any good character gets without the big brain projectile plays.

 

[Thinkaman]

The only thing I can say that you haven't is that a more apt comparison might be to Sm4sh Pac-Man: a zoner with (essentially) no options against shield who has to work very very hard for what any good character gets without the big brain projectile plays.

I dunno, as a Belmont Boy I'm more than happy to have my opponent slow the game down. Between active projectiles, fair/bair, and d-tilt, shields aren't much of a barrier--far from the exasperation PAC-MAN experienced.

What I'm afraid of as Simon is Sheik getting all up in my grill, exactly as you said. It feels like most the cast can run them down, and the few that can't have reflectors or Revenge. (Is there anyone in the game who genuinely hates reflectors as much as the Belmonts?)

 

[J0eyboi]

I'm growing increasingly pessimistic about . What is there long-term plan, once the game speeds up and every matchup knows how to get around their bag of tricks? I don't think fair/bair and d-tilt can sustain them, not with the slowness, the awful grab, the terrible recovery, poor OoS, ect. I see them as the Smash 4 Bowser Jr. of this game, essentially.

I don't think their great ledgetrapping is going to get worse as the game goes on, so they'll always have that. Problem is, they don't have great ways of getting their opponent there. Their projectiles mostly launch upwards, rather than towards the ledge, if they launch at all. Fair, Bair, and Ftilt do move your opponent towards the ledge, but none of them really combo at all, and can only be comboed into out of the aforementioned projectiles, which means the Belmonts' overall ledge carry off neutral wins is pretty weak. You can try to take stage control in neutral, but I don't think that's a great idea; they don't have the frame data to contest other characters at close range, and moving forward makes them more likely to be put in a close-quarters situation. Combined with their low run and air speed, I don't think trying to take stage control in neutral is worth the risk in a lot of situations. So the Belmonts are put in this situation where they can't risk moving towards the ledge, but need to push their opponent onto it. They can try to get a back throw or other crossup, but their bad grab makes that pretty unfeasible too. Their neutral just doesn't seem like it flows well into their advantage to me.

Of course, I barely play Belmonts, so most of this analysis could be wrong. I just don't see how Belmonts are supposed to go from neutral to advantage unless they've already won enough neutral for their opponent to be at fairly high %s.

 

[meleebrawler]

I'm growing increasingly pessimistic about . What is there long-term plan, once the game speeds up and every matchup knows how to get around their bag of tricks? I don't think fair/bair and d-tilt can sustain them, not with the slowness, the awful grab, the terrible recovery, poor OoS, ect. I see them as the Smash 4 Bowser Jr. of this game, essentially.

Well, their uppercut is basically a Shoryuken except they're much better at getting people in the air to nail them with it. And it's super quick and difficult to react to in juggle scenarios, opening up mixups.

Their whip brandishing (holding A after jab/ftilt) is pretty unexplored from what I can see, but it can potentially stop many ground approaches cold... of course nobody does that with all the projectiles and Belmont players generally being worse at fending off aerial approaches.

Also it's funny that you compare them to Bowser Jr., because I feel that their cross can give better pressure if it's tossed backwards, as opposed to forwards where it's easily neutralized by a shield before the Belmont can do anything. Having a boomerang that doesn't track the thrower makes it easier to multitask.

 

[Shaya]

Dark Pit arrows are doing a lot more in neutral a lot of the time. Basically force approaches. Snuffs things.
Essentially a good Falco Laser, a really good Falco laser.
Regular Arrow's are likely still king of edgeguarding - using them to inhibit either a high or low transition into easily covering the other option. But of course both Pits are pretty good at edeguarding.
Regular Pit's side-b seems to do more work than it did in S4 at least.

I'd say that Dark Pit is more appreciative of his arrow specs online. Online in this game really does "suck"/change a lot of everything, so I'm wary to rate projectilers (or even heavies, which when playing against them online is just like UGHHH half the time) as good as they seem to feel [i.e. being able to spam the crap out of a lot of everything and get away with it]. While heavies hit huge - at the least their animations tend to leave their limbs exposed for a while, something a lot easier to time and space against offline.

-

The Belmonts...
Genuinely not-so-secretly feel they're meant to be aggressive pressure masters, but at the least have one of the highest skill caps of any characters (angling chains + small lined hitboxes with small sweetspots) in the game bar none.

They seem to have the machinations of both Zero Suit Samus and Marth, which for people who know me, is quite a big red herring. Yeah the movement speeds a bit of a sadness (but they can crawl!!!) but dtilts speed and distance covered isn't a joke at all, kinda rings like falco laser/side-b in Brawl... (oh lord, another red herring), and I really do suck at angling chains consistently.
But Boomerang, Dtilt, (Ftilt, lesser so/mu dependent), Grab, Fair/Bair seem to be all this character needs to actually win.

They're gonna be low-mid in the medium term, probably, or not because they really do require MU experience to deal with, but if anyone ever bothers to try to master them AND happens to be good at Smash, I'm expecting a genuine monster.
I believe their players need to actually aggress people off stage. They live between a very fine line of life and death if they jump off stage, but so does most of the cast dying from a sweetspot chain hit, either gimping at the low-medium % or outright KOing at medium to high %. You're probably gonna say "how", but that's why dtilt is probably one of their best moves, half stage length "both of us are offstage now but you need to get through this chain that I always fail to angle properly and then you recover but just so you know if I did angle this fair/bair downwards (or upwards if I read/see you jumping) YOU WERE DEAD DEAD DEAD".

They're a character which deals with a lot of shield, and shield staling is a real thing (I was shocked to see a grounded ZSS side-b fully staled barely sends Roy anywhere at 140%). Belmont players are likely not playing with this degree of forethought in mind and put themselves into scenarios where the only thing that have that'll KO is their horrendous fsmash.
Next time, think, is my axe or ftilt hitting their shield for the 100th time in a row actually helping me? Probably not.

Their disadvantage is pretty horrendous however, and despite the upper-skill cap prospect of aerial chain spacing, might not be enough to mitigate their sudden depreciating livelihoods if they're in a juggle situation or hit awkwardly off stage.

 

[meleebrawler]

Dark Pit arrows are doing a lot more in neutral a lot of the time. Basically force approaches. Snuffs things.
Basically a good Falco Laser, a really good Falco laser.
Regular Arrows stil probably king of edgeguarding - using them to inhibit either a high or low transition into easily covering the other option. But of course both Pits are pretty good at edeguarding.
Regular Pit's side-b seems to do more work than it did in S4 at least.

I'd say that Dark Pit is more appreciative of his arrow specs online. Online in this game really does "suck"/change a lot of everything, so I'm wary to rate projectilers (or even heavies, which when playing against them online is just like UGHHH half the time) as good as they seem to feel [i.e. being able to spam the crap out of a lot of everything and get away with it]. While heavies hit huge - at the least their animations tend to leave their limbs exposed for a while, something a lot easier to time and space against offline.

-

The Belmonts...
Genuinely not-so-secretly feel they're meant to be aggressive pressure masters, but at the least have one of the highest skill caps of any characters (angling chains + small lined hitboxes with small sweetspots) in the game bar none.

They seem to have the machinations of both Zero Suit Samus and Marth, which for people who know me, is quite a big red herring. Yeah the movement speeds a bit of a sadness (but they can crawl!!!) but dtilts speed and distance covered isn't a joke at all, kinda rings like falco laser/side-b in Brawl... (oh lord, another red herring), and I really do suck at angling chains consistently.
But Boomerang, Dtilt, (Ftilt, lesser so/mu dependent), Grab, Fair/Bair seem to be all this character needs to actually win.

They're gonna be low-mid in the medium term, probably, or not because they really do require MU experience to deal with, but if anyone ever bothers to try to master them AND happens to be good at Smash, I'm expecting a genuine monster.
I believe their players need to actually aggress people off stage. They live between a very fine line of life and death if they jump off stage, but so does most of the cast dying from a sweetspot chain hit, either gimping at the low-medium % or outright KOing at medium to high %. You're probably gonna say "how", but that's why dtilt is probably one of their best moves, half stage length "both of us are offstage now but you need to get through this chain that I always fail to angle properly and then you recover but just so you know if I did angle this fair/bair downwards (or upwards if I read/see you jumping) YOU WERE DEAD DEAD DEAD".

They're a character which deals with a lot of shield, and shield staling is a real thing (I was shocked to see a grounded ZSS side-b fully staled barely sends Roy anywhere at 140%). Belmont players are likely not playing with this degree of forethought in mind and put themselves into scenarios where the only thing that have that'll KO is their horrendous fsmash.

For me it's not the execution of angling their aerials that's hard (it's pretty much just diagonal, don't be scared of doing a dive kick by accident), but just aiming, and timing when it comes to doing short-hop down-angled fairs.

 

[Shaya]

For me it's not the execution of angling their aerials that's hard (it's pretty much just diagonal, don't be scared of doing a dive kick by accident), but just aiming, and timing when it comes to doing short-hop down-angled fairs.

Yeah, it's that extra thinking/gap in time where I go "oh gotta make sure I angle this" while also considering the general tightness of spacing requirements. Trying to angle these aerials and failing to hit anything because of it is a big "hit me and probably kill me" which inhibits confidence significantly and I'm sure would be the reason we see Belmonts lose in bracket at high/top level in the foreseeable future (if they get there). Maybe my c-stick is on the way out? I was fine at c-stick nairing in S4 but get deadzoned into straights or uair/dair, I also definitely take more than a few frames of thinking about whether my hands in the right spot (despite the notches) in the analog to do it that way either.

 

[Nate1080]

Dark Pit arrows are doing a lot more in neutral a lot of the time. Basically force approaches. Snuffs things.
Basically a good Falco Laser, a really good Falco laser.
Regular Arrows stil probably king of edgeguarding - using them to inhibit either a high or low transition into easily covering the other option. But of course both Pits are pretty good at edeguarding.
Regular Pit's side-b seems to do more work than it did in S4 at least.

I'd say that Dark Pit is more appreciative of his arrow specs online. Online in this game really does "suck"/change a lot of everything, so I'm wary to rate projectilers (or even heavies, which when playing against them online is just like UGHHH half the time) as good as they seem to feel [i.e. being able to spam the crap out of a lot of everything and get away with it]. While heavies hit huge - at the least their animations tend to leave their limbs exposed for a while, something a lot easier to time and space against offline.

-

The Belmonts...
Genuinely not-so-secretly feel they're meant to be aggressive pressure masters, but at the least have one of the highest skill caps of any characters (angling chains + small lined hitboxes with small sweetspots) in the game bar none.

They seem to have the machinations of both Zero Suit Samus and Marth, which for people who know me, is quite a big red herring. Yeah the movement speeds a bit of a sadness (but they can crawl!!!) but dtilts speed and distance covered isn't a joke at all, kinda rings like falco laser/side-b in Brawl... (oh lord, another red herring), and I really do suck at angling chains consistently.
But Boomerang, Dtilt, (Ftilt, lesser so/mu dependent), Grab, Fair/Bair seem to be all this character needs to actually win.

They're gonna be low-mid in the medium term, probably, or not because they really do require MU experience to deal with, but if anyone ever bothers to try to master them AND happens to be good at Smash, I'm expecting a genuine monster.
I believe their players need to actually aggress people off stage. They live between a very fine line of life and death if they jump off stage, but so does most of the cast dying from a sweetspot chain hit, either gimping at the low-medium % or outright KOing at medium to high %. You're probably gonna say "how", but that's why dtilt is probably one of their best moves, half stage length "both of us are offstage now but you need to get through this chain that I always fail to angle properly and then you recover but just so you know if I did angle this fair/bair downwards (or upwards if I read/see you jumping) YOU WERE DEAD DEAD DEAD".

They're a character which deals with a lot of shield, and shield staling is a real thing (I was shocked to see a grounded ZSS side-b fully staled barely sends Roy anywhere at 140%). Belmont players are likely not playing with this degree of forethought in mind and put themselves into scenarios where the only thing that have that'll KO is their horrendous fsmash.
Next time, think, is my axe or ftilt hitting their shield for the 100th time in a row actually helping me? Probably not.

Their disadvantage is pretty horrendous however, and despite the upper-skill cap prospect of aerial chain spacing, might not be enough to mitigate their sudden depreciating livelihoods if they're in a juggle situation or hit awkwardly off stage.

Axe does a ton of shield damage and can lead to easy shield breaks, so that hitting shield isn’t too bad.

Also, their off stage game is atrocious. Unlike regular swordies, their ftilt chain hit box is thin and doesn’t cover them in a sweeping motion. It isn’t hard to avoid. Trying to gimp with a falling nair, for example, is a lot easier and a far more consistent edge guard, but the range is ass imo and puts you in a situation where you might not be able to come back to ledge because up-b just misses or they footstooled you (far easier to do in this game than previous Smashes), etc. Point is, Belmonts are far too risky to try to do an off stage edge guard.

Axe and Cross are your best edge guard tools imo. Just don’t go off stage too much as Belmonts.

 

[Shaya]

Axe does a ton of shield damage and can lead to easy shield breaks, so that hitting shield isn’t too bad.

Also, their off stage game is atrocious. Unlike regular swordies, their ftilt chain hit box is thin and doesn’t cover them in a sweeping motion. It isn’t hard to avoid. Trying to gimp with a falling nair, for example, is a lot easier and a far more consistent edge guard, but the range is *** imo and puts you in a situation where you might not be able to come back to ledge because up-b just misses or they footstooled you (far easier to do in this game than previous Smashes), etc. Point is, Belmonts are far too risky to try to do an off stage edge guard.

Axe and Cross are your best edge guard tools imo. Just don’t go off stage too much as Belmonts.

Axe isn't overtly difficult to parry and I believe still applies staling to the move. Catching someone with it mid air and koing vs it... not.

Why would I be ftilting off stage?

A lot of their off-stage strength comes from the ability to tether the ledge in either facing, hang on the ledge or instantly snap, and time drop aerials.
(The S4 Zero Suit Samus Factor). Boomerang augments these capabilities further (ledge drop or run off boomerang, tether snap, etc).
And just because their chains don't cover them in sweeping motions doesn't mean it's atrocious, it means it's DIFFICULT - as I vehemently pointed out. Furthermore they have better range than those arcing sweeping regular swordies.

 

[Nate1080]

Axe isn’t hard to parry, true, but most people atm don’t parry it. Probably because missing the parry against the axe can mean losing a stock. When people do get better and more confident at parrying however, Belmonts are going to be struggling.

I’m calling their off stage game in general atrocious. Tbh, reguardless of tether or not, its far too risky to do off stage play with a character that debatably has bottom 5/3 recovery in the game. Its ridiculously easy to get footstooled, in addition to the fact they don’t have many options off stage to begin with that doesn’t potentially doom them.

The belmonts have more range than those swordies, sure, but off stage that’s largely moot. Those sweeps cover up top, in front, and down below (some cases their back too), far safer to go off stage and edge guard with these characters than with Belmonts. That’s the point I’m trying to make when I say Belmonts off stage game is basically garbage.

 

[NotLiquid]

I don't know if you want to get into the habit of parrying Belmont's Axe at all. His range is so ridiculous that he can safely apply pressure from a distance and parrying is just opening yourself up and letting him get whipping. You don't want to make contact with the Axe, period, especially once his brand of setplay gets optimized.

 

[PK Gaming]

I'm growing increasingly pessimistic about . What is there long-term plan, once the game speeds up and every matchup knows how to get around their bag of tricks? I don't think fair/bair and d-tilt can sustain them, not with the slowness, the awful grab, the terrible recovery, poor OoS, ect. I see them as the Smash 4 Bowser Jr. of this game, essentially.

These characters are simply too fragile to last in the current metagame. Outside of specialists, I don't see any top players seriously picking them up. Even Dabuz scoffed at the idea of using Richter to cover some of his weaker matchups.

 

[Shaya]

Axe isn’t hard to parry, true, but most people atm don’t parry it. Probably because missing the parry against the axe can mean losing a stock. When people do get better and more confident at parrying however, Belmonts are going to be struggling.

I’m calling their off stage game in general atrocious. Tbh, reguardless of tether or not, its far too risky to do off stage play with a character that debatably has bottom 5/3 recovery in the game. Its ridiculously easy to get footstooled, in addition to the fact they don’t have many options off stage to begin with that doesn’t potentially doom them.

It's definitely risky to over extend (the exact extent of the depths of which they can pursue is significantly less than S4 ZSS), but they can stay near the ledge, force or pressure alternative recovery routes, and still maintain stage control afterwards. You might be confusing my explanation as some sort of deep extension off stage which with any minor failure means no chance of coming back, no that's not what you're doing with the belmonts unless you want to die or you've got balls of steel. Tether augmented ledge guarding is inherently LOW RISK as you can stall and near instantly tether on reaction whenever you want to (and thus can decide where and when you want invincibility).

In other words, Belmont players should be pressing their advantage off-stage when they can, knowing that doing so will barely inhibit them from being able to maintain their strong edgeguarding afterwards as well (loss of time to axe throw withstanding). This is due to them being able to see "okay I won't be able to capitalize off this, best just go on stage and win". Again, this scenario almost only comes up from the use of down tilt as very few other moves set up to such a strong positional advantage like this for him.

I don't know if you want to get into the habit of parrying Belmont's Axe at all. His range is so ridiculous that he can safely apply pressure from a distance and parrying is just opening yourself up and letting him get whipping. You don't want to make contact with the Axe, period, especially once his brand of setplay gets optimized.

Parrying when you have to, but yeah, letting this thing hit you parry or not is generally slowing you down compared to just evading it.
It, combined with the engine, makes for a lovely design IMO. You neither want it to stale if you can avoid it, but it still presents advantages hitting shield or blocking jump paths - requiring a longer term mindset for what move choices you're using.

 

[bc1910]

I've been playing a few of the perceived "lower tiered" characters in my quest to Elite with every character.

Kirby is lacking, but nowhere near as bad as I was expecting. His fast normals and strong frame data make him dangerous up close, but his decent foxtrot allows him to circumvent the Smash 4 problem of being overly reliant on his buttons and struggling against similarly quick frame data or good spacing. His foxtrot allows him to weave a little up close, certainly not much but enough to stay out of range of CQC and find openings with a tilt or aerial. Don't tell anyone, but I've found that Stone is actually pretty good in disadvantage since everyone is so keen on pressing onstage advantage. Not to say you shouldn't use it very sporadically, but you'll net some cheesy kills if you give it a shot.

Mii Brawler is really fun with good damage output, but holy smokes can he not kill. I got a red lightning Fthrow at 200 on Incineroar and my jaw almost hit the floor when he Cross Chopped straight back. It seems they poured all his KO power into Fsmash and called it job done. At least the Side B 1 and Up B 3 can sometimes get stuff done? Both are massively punishable of course. His bark is much worse than his bite.

Bowser Jr is certainly improved. His poor frame data is still an issue, but being able to actually do something against shield helps him no end. His already-strong punish game is even stronger than in S4 where he was able to hit you for 50+ pretty consistently. Really impressed with his edgeguarding; Kart into jump into double jump allows him a lot of opportunities to smack the opponent with Fair and Up B covers huge distance on its own when it comes to getting back on the stage.

Yeah, it's that extra thinking/gap in time where I go "oh gotta make sure I angle this" while also considering the general tightness of spacing requirements. Trying to angle these aerials and failing to hit anything because of it is a big "hit me and probably kill me" which inhibits confidence significantly and I'm sure would be the reason we see Belmonts lose in bracket at high/top level in the foreseeable future (if they get there). Maybe my c-stick is on the way out? I was fine at c-stick nairing in S4 but get deadzoned into straights or uair/dair, I also definitely take more than a few frames of thinking about whether my hands in the right spot (despite the notches) in the analog to do it that way either.

C-stick Nair is a lot harder in this game just in case you weren't aware. The input is so strict that it's all but taken out. You can actually do them through the new buffer by holding the C-stick in any direction and holding jump during some action like long landing lag or throwing, but it's useless compared to having C-stick Nair on lock during neutral.

 

[Rizen]

A few days ago someone said K.Rool players will improve when they stop relying on his armor, etc. Really utilize the character's full kit instead of treating it as a crutch. The same applies to the Belmonts; they're not gimmicky characters. Belmonts have solid zoning projectiles that are hard to tell apart when they're thrown and chains that don't need to be sweet spotted. Kill throws, burst options with Dtilt... I agree they'll drop a bit but they're solid characters.

The only real gimmicky thing I can think of is Link picking up an arrow he shot then shooting two at once. It's so impractical and will rarely be a factor.

 

[LordShade67]

The more I look into the Mewtwo community, the more I worry that it's spiraling towards a date that befell the Smash 4 Ryu community as Emblem Lord mentioned: overemphasis on combos at the expense of exploring Mewtwo's neutral game.

Mewtwo lost some tools, it's true. Side B isn't a movement option, down tilt combos are riskier, and the loss of air dodge attacks changes how the character works. But I'm seeing mains of Mewtwo say that its neutral is BAD, and the only way I could see that being the case is if players thought "neutral" meant "throwing out random attacks and hoping they combo into big damage."

Maybe I'm not seeing something, but I find it hard to believe that Mewtwo's neutral is anything short of great because it has the tools to go toe to toe in almost any scenario—the only exception is how mad Mewtwo is at fighting super up-close, which was a weakness in Smash 4 too.

All of Mewtwo's attacks have incredible utility, and it feels like Mewtwo traded a few overwhelming options for a more even spread that rewards smart usage of its entire kit. Even the fact that differently charged Shadow balls (as opposed to just fully charged or uncharged) have uses makes the character feel like the sky's the limit in neutral. I understand that losing neutral is extra scary because of how big and vulnerable Mewtwo is after getting hit, but it still doesn't seem enough to me to downgrade it's toolkit.

It's not even the combo bit that's the problem with M2. Our problem is the fact that our hurtboxes got bigger for no reason other than because Sakurai*. It's kinda hard to neutral people when the non-SB neutral tools USUALLY end in an unfavorable trade because of this. And no. This happens even if you DID properly space it. For evidence:

Spoiler

Who looked at THIS and thought "Yes. This is fine"?

*Yes I know, it's because in S4 a lot of his tail was in the Z-Axis. Regardless.

 

[Rocketjay8]

It's not even the combo bit that's the problem with M2. Our problem is the fact that our hurtboxes got bigger for no reason other than because Sakurai*. It's kinda hard to neutral people when the non-SB neutral tools USUALLY end in an unfavorable trade because of this. And no. This happens even if you DID properly space it. For evidence:

Spoiler

View attachment 185604

Who looked at THIS and thought "Yes. This is fine."

*Yes I know, it's because in S4 a lot of his tail was in the Z-Axis. Regardless.

Can you show us smash 4's hitboxes to compare?

 

[LordShade67]

Can you show us smash 4's hitboxes to compare?

Sure. So as to not clutter up the thread, I'll be putting the same FTilt from S4 in spoilers.

Spoiler

The yellow parts are hurtboxes, btw.