Official Competitive Character Impressions 2.0

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Ziodyne 21

Smash Lord
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Well to continue on my view of :ultrob:, His Up-B recovery pretty bad in itself, R.O.B does have good defensive offstage options for those going to try and edgeguard/gimp him. Fully charged Beam or Gyro at the ready can stop players approaching you, and up-air is good for defending against people meteor or stage spiking you from below the stage. Side-B or N-air can also sometimes work in clutch situations offstage. It really is about trying to guess what how your opponent is going to attack you offstage and responding back with the right move .

However, I am not going to deny that making a wrong move or read offstage as R.O.B will spell big trouble and a potential early trip to the scrap heap
 
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NotLiquid

Smash Lord
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Jul 14, 2014
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How on Earth does Inkling struggle to kill?
Their two most reliable ways to confirm into kills at early 100% range are roller and booyah - the former which is both easily blockable and reactable (if your character has any good OoS option), and the latter of which only works at extremely specific percentages on certain characters (some of which don't even work). They don't have a single kill option that's safe on shield meaning they can't reliably fish for attacks the same way one would a Fox or Mario up smash. They don't have any confirms like Smash 4 Diddy's DTilt (though admittedly Ultimate in general doesn't have many kill confirms as busted as that). If you can wall out Inkling, they're not going to be able to secure stocks against you until they start fishing for FTilts on edge, sweetspot FAirs or UAirs at ~+150%.

Their edge guarding and ledge trapping game is powerful, and it's part of the reason why I still think the Fox matchup is somewhat decent in spite of him beating Inkling's boxing game, but Inklings do not have any safe moves to throw out when it comes to securing a stock, and that can turn several matchups extremely lopsided. You only need to look at the second round of Cosmos' set against Larry Lurr at Let's Make Moves to see when this is at its worst. Despite Fox being extremely lightweight and having a poor off-stage game, he survived well into 152%, only dying to a stray UAir.

People regularly conflate Inkling's ability to rack up damage extremely fast with their ability to safely take stocks, when the reality is, they can be tripped up pretty severely in this regard given that several characters are much better at taking early stocks.
 
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Rizen

Smash Legend
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As far as :ultridley:goes, he's got mobility, combos and an arguably BS edgeguarding projectile that makes him a force to be reckoned. The whole idea of Ridley being bad has kind of just died out now. Most now seem to recognize Ridley as a decent, if not good character who happens to have some notable flaws. He's got plenty of tournament rankings including a few 1st places. In fact the last time I checked Ridley had gotten 25 tournament placements, of which 18 were int he top 10 and around 3 got 1st place.

Of course one of the reasons I think Ridley can do so well, other than actually have a decent enough moveset, is that he excels at the arguably most important thing in the game, edgeguarding and offstage gameplay. This means Ridley can even out odds that other characters might not. If you're recovery isn't good enough, or you don't have what it takes to deal with Ridley's F-airs and even more broken N-airs. It's easy enough to take a stock from 40-80% with two good off stage Fairs...which mind you is a true combo for Ridley.

You can face people like Chrom, Roy and Lucina and get your rear end kicked in neutral and yet the moment you take them off stage, the roles are reversed and you can take them out with one good aerial. That or if you're feeling like an a**hole, just stand back and lob fireballs and 1/5 times, you'll take a stock by sheer gimp. Having an advantage of any kind when facing off against arguably high or even top tier characters, is a very good thing to have.

It's also surprisingly difficult to edgeguard or gimp Ridley. You'd be surprised at how good distance-wise his recovery is. This guy's got 3 jumps, a Side-B and an Up-B and can recover from the blast zone to the stage easily. Add in having a damn strong Up-B strength wise that beats most attacks and a lot of characters aren't going to take the risk of going down in the depths of Norfair with him unless they can actually back it up.

I can't reasonably put Ridley at high tier because I feel his notable flaws unfortunately counteract his positives enough to keep him from there. But I'd definitely put him in Mid Tier and if his tournament results continue, High Mid Tier.

And just imagine how frightening it would be if Ridley was the worst heavy. Here's this guy with all these tools, techs and combos that can make high tier character's think twice and he's apparently the worst. God forbid, what happens when a better heavy comes out? Does Bowser just down-thrown opponents through the opposite end of the stage and win?
Agreed, Ridley feels like a mid tier to me. He's definitely one of the scariest to recover against.

Someone mentioned ROB. ROB's good. IDK too much about him but he has high tier potential.
 

FishkeeperTimmay!

Smash Ace
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People regularly conflate Inkling's ability to rack up damage extremely fast with their ability to safely take stocks, when the reality is, they can be tripped up pretty severely in this regard given that several characters are much better at taking early stocks.
I wonder how much of the Inkling hype is based on online play, where it is noticeably harder to punish/react to the Roller. That attack is much easier to deal with when you are offline. Like you said, Inkling doesn't have any confirms outside of that attack.
 

Vincent21

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I kinda starting to wonder about :ultyounglink:‘s long term placement.

Yeah, he racks up damage very effectively. Yeah, bombs give him a decent boost to disadvantage and overall recovery that :ultlink: is really starting to miss. Yeah, he’s showing up and placing in events, and T especially gives me second thoughts about what I’m going to say in the following couple of lines. And yeah, hes got both a competent set of projectiles *and* some disjoints to go with them.

But Ylink just has a fundamental blindspot that’s been frustrating me more and more as I play, and turning me toward other characters as a result.

Why does a character this light not have a single damn button I can press that comes out before frame 6 (Including f3 jumpsquat that is) that doesn’t leave me wide open?! Whenever I’m against a character with better buttons and the speed/tools to get in on my zoning game its just a nightmare the longer the set I’m playing is, aka the more time they have to download my zoning tricks. Alternatively, when I’m against characters with comparable or superior zoning games and feel the need to approach, I just feel like my tools aren’t up to the task and I’m stuck hurling nair around until I catch a break.

Ylink’s got disjoints, sure, but they’re not nearly as robust as the ones wielded by real swordies, so they don’t actually do a ton to control space or get people off of me. Once someone’s on top off you it just feels like a game of praying to the bomb gods for a free escape, a la :ultsnake:, or hoping that putting out an UpB/usmash doesn’t result in losing a stock because you didn’t connect.

Granted, I’m not someone like T. At the end of the day, these concerns could just have to do with me being bad. But I just have to wonder if repeated exposure to the mu at a high level is going to result in Ylink’s zoning game growing kess effective, to the point that characters get in often enough will better exploit his frame data flaws and knock him down a peg.

To summarize, I’m basically just complaining that Ylink isn’t actually just Young Snake and posing that as (hopefully) fruitful discussion. I wish I had solid grounded frame data and basically instant bombs. Hmph.

Unrelated: your passive shield on all Links actually matters in the :ultsamus::ultdarksamus: mu and its kind of hilarious. The number of times I’ve outplayed a Charge Shot frame trap or ledge option by standing completely still is absurd, and while obviously this has limited to no application during neutral, standing still at a set distance to cover get up options is totally valid, so taking away peeking Charge Shot as a ledge option for free is 100% something to put in your notes.
 

Rizen

Smash Legend
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I kinda starting to wonder about :ultyounglink:‘s long term placement.

Yeah, he racks up damage very effectively. Yeah, bombs give him a decent boost to disadvantage and overall recovery that :ultlink: is really starting to miss. Yeah, he’s showing up and placing in events, and T especially gives me second thoughts about what I’m going to say in the following couple of lines. And yeah, hes got both a competent set of projectiles *and* some disjoints to go with them.

But Ylink just has a fundamental blindspot that’s been frustrating me more and more as I play, and turning me toward other characters as a result.

Why does a character this light not have a single damn button I can press that comes out before frame 6 (Including f3 jumpsquat that is) that doesn’t leave me wide open?! Whenever I’m against a character with better buttons and the speed/tools to get in on my zoning game its just a nightmare the longer the set I’m playing is, aka the more time they have to download my zoning tricks. Alternatively, when I’m against characters with comparable or superior zoning games and feel the need to approach, I just feel like my tools aren’t up to the task and I’m stuck hurling nair around until I catch a break.

Ylink’s got disjoints, sure, but they’re not nearly as robust as the ones wielded by real swordies, so they don’t actually do a ton to control space or get people off of me. Once someone’s on top off you it just feels like a game of praying to the bomb gods for a free escape, a la :ultsnake:, or hoping that putting out an UpB/usmash doesn’t result in losing a stock because you didn’t connect.

Granted, I’m not someone like T. At the end of the day, these concerns could just have to do with me being bad. But I just have to wonder if repeated exposure to the mu at a high level is going to result in Ylink’s zoning game growing kess effective, to the point that characters get in often enough will better exploit his frame data flaws and knock him down a peg.

To summarize, I’m basically just complaining that Ylink isn’t actually just Young Snake and posing that as (hopefully) fruitful discussion. I wish I had solid grounded frame data and basically instant bombs. Hmph.

Unrelated: your passive shield on all Links actually matters in the :ultsamus::ultdarksamus: mu and its kind of hilarious. The number of times I’ve outplayed a Charge Shot frame trap or ledge option by standing completely still is absurd, and while obviously this has limited to no application during neutral, standing still at a set distance to cover get up options is totally valid, so taking away peeking Charge Shot as a ledge option for free is 100% something to put in your notes.
I agree with you a f6 jab is a handicap. YL's good but he's not Snake good. But at the same time I feel like he has a lot of room to grow. I've been working on combos and he has so many options. Especially things like Fair1/late Nair>land>Dtilt>sweet Nair/Fair get a ton of damage consistently. Dtilt is a really good combo starter and extender. And then he can chain things that aren't true combos like Nair and Bair to another aerial. YL also can Frame 1 Dair any time Fair would connect for top kills. He can kill with Nair/Fair 1>land running Dsmash or Bair 1 land Usmash.
Then he has zoning mix ups from grounded boomerang/arrows to SH/jumping projectiles. Z dropping bombs, throwing bombs up, planting them. Pivot Fsmash/grab. He can play grounded or aerially.

The tl;dr is YL has a lot going for him and a lot of mix up potential. He's not outragious but I can't see him falling out of high tier. Mix up your zoning.
 

Nah

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But Ylink just has a fundamental blindspot that’s been frustrating me more and more as I play, and turning me toward other characters as a result.

Why does a character this light not have a single damn button I can press that comes out before frame 6 (Including f3 jumpsquat that is) that doesn’t leave me wide open?! Whenever I’m against a character with better buttons and the speed/tools to get in on my zoning game its just a nightmare the longer the set I’m playing is, aka the more time they have to download my zoning tricks. Alternatively, when I’m against characters with comparable or superior zoning games and feel the need to approach, I just feel like my tools aren’t up to the task and I’m stuck hurling nair around until I catch a break.
That's kind of just how zoning is fundamentally, at least in this series away. Once somebody penetrates your zoning, they're supposed to be rewarded for it, and having poor CQC options helps ensure that they actually get their reward.

Unfortunately(?), it's not exactly a recipe for high-level, long-term success in this series either given how.....relatively easy it is I guess for many characters to zone break. It's also why Snake is arguably one of the best zoners in the game--once you make it past the wall of explosives and stuff, you're still not home free, as you now have to deal with the man's good CQC capabilities, unlike most other zoners.
 

Scarlet Spyder

Smash Cadet
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Jul 11, 2015
Messages
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Someone mentioned Greninja :ultgreninja: a few pages back so I decided to spend some time with the popular Pokémon. Much like Palutena, his buffs make him feel like a “complete” fighter compared to Smash 4.

First, he benefits from the universal changes in ultimate. With Nair, Dtilt, and dash attack he can start combos pretty easily. With opponents in the air you’re looking at a 50/50 at worst but he does have solid true combos and confirms (ex. Dtilt to Fair at ~100% nets KOs). I would say that his ledgeguard game is a bit lacking but Greninja makes up for it with a superb edgeguarding game. Between Bair, shuriken, shadow sneak, hydropump, and substitute you can find a bunch of different ways to apply pressure off the stage. Substitute is actually VERY good in this game, netting easy KOs both on or off stage if your opponent become predictable.

All in all, :ultgreninja: feels like the fast ninja that he ought to be.
 

Vincent21

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That's kind of just how zoning is fundamentally, at least in this series away. Once somebody penetrates your zoning, they're supposed to be rewarded for it, and having poor CQC options helps ensure that they actually get their reward.

Unfortunately(?), it's not exactly a recipe for high-level, long-term success in this series either given how.....relatively easy it is I guess for many characters to zone break. It's also why Snake is arguably one of the best zoners in the game--once you make it past the wall of explosives and stuff, you're still not home free, as you now have to deal with the man's good CQC capabilities, unlike most other zoners.
You’re right. But at the same time...

It’s not just Snake who gets buttons to press as a zoner. :ultrobin: Gets a solid f4 jab and reasonable f6 utilt, :ultsamus::ultdarksamus: get their (forever unlinked) f3 jab and f6 dtilt, :ulttoonlink: gets like a -1 frame buff across the board in direct comparison, :ultvillager::ultisabelle: have faster nairs and jabs and tilts, and even the :ultsimon::ultrichter: bois can hold their jab anove his head.

Young Link would be a total exception if not for :ultlink:, but at least that guy has a proper longsword.

:ultyounglink: Is just in a weird spot with a f6 jab and all his tilts kissing the f10 mark.
 

Omastar

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What do you guys think about :ultness:?

FOW and Awestin have been winning events with over 100 entrants including players like MVD. They are still locals, but I really do feel like Ness' tools this time around allow him to contend better. He still has all the disjoints with nair and fair. His Pk fire is slightly better especially in the air, pk thunder is great tool to harass people offstage and getting some cheesy kills off the top, magnet has a hitbox, Ness' upsmash can kill now, and his downsmash can now lean over the edge allowing for some easy edge guards, dair and pk flash can actually be useful in matches now as well. Directional air dodge as well as magnet gives us a few more options to get back onto stage with mixups.

Do you guys think will he drop off like he did in Smash 4 especially with edgeguarding being strong in this game and or do you think dedicated Ness mains will continue to do work? Would love to hear your guy's thoughts on this!
 
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boysilver400

Smash Apprentice
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Jul 7, 2018
Messages
138
Any other thoughts on :ulticeclimbers:? They seem to have 0 tournament results so far(in fact, they're the only characters to not appear in the tournament results thread) and I haven't heard much talk about them in general.
 

AlMoStLeGeNdArY

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What do you guys think about :ultness:?

FOW and Awestin have been winning events with over 100 entrants including players like MVD. They are still locals, but I really do feel like Ness' tools this time around allow him to contend better. He still has all the disjoints with nair and fair. His Pk fire is slightly better especially in the air, pk thunder is great tool to harass people offstage and getting some cheesy kills off the top, magnet has a hitbox, Ness' upsmash can kill now, and his downsmash can now lean over the edge allowing for some easy edge guards, dair and pk flash can actually be useful in matches now as well. Directional air dodge as well as magnet gives us a few more options to get back onto stage with mixups.

Do you guys think will he drop off like he did in Smash 4 especially with edgeguarding being strong in this game and or do you think dedicated Ness mains will continue to do work? Would love to hear your guy's thoughts on this?
I don't believe that Ness will drop off in sm4sh he had to contend with rosa sheik marth and diddy all pretty rough MUs. I don't believe his lack of range is going to be as much of a hindrance this time around. The psi magnet and pk thunder buffs seem to help a lot and the ness players have really been showing a lot of great stuff. His biggest problem will be the rise of sword characters if disjoints aren't flying around everywhere I believe he can compete.
 

NotLiquid

Smash Lord
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Jul 14, 2014
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1,169
I dunno how we feel about talking about upcoming characters but Joker and Plant (as well as the second DLC pack character) all got a bunch of their character attributes datamined. (If you care about spoilers might not want to look into who the next DLC character is)

Joker already looks like he has a bunch of attributes a high tier contender would like. He's the 9th fastest character in the game (2.21), has a wall cling, strong fastfall, and a bunch of his aerials have low landing lag. Main downside is he's a featherweight (82). Obviously all that's subject to change but assuming you like speedy characters, things are looking up.

Plant got buffed from his initial datamine, he's now roughly as fast as ROB (1.72). He's also classified as a superheavy (112).
 
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Tri Knight

Smash Ace
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Aug 10, 2015
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745
I kinda starting to wonder about :ultyounglink:‘s long term placement.

Yeah, he racks up damage very effectively. Yeah, bombs give him a decent boost to disadvantage and overall recovery that :ultlink: is really starting to miss. Yeah, he’s showing up and placing in events, and T especially gives me second thoughts about what I’m going to say in the following couple of lines. And yeah, hes got both a competent set of projectiles *and* some disjoints to go with them.

But Ylink just has a fundamental blindspot that’s been frustrating me more and more as I play, and turning me toward other characters as a result.

Why does a character this light not have a single damn button I can press that comes out before frame 6 (Including f3 jumpsquat that is) that doesn’t leave me wide open?! Whenever I’m against a character with better buttons and the speed/tools to get in on my zoning game its just a nightmare the longer the set I’m playing is, aka the more time they have to download my zoning tricks. Alternatively, when I’m against characters with comparable or superior zoning games and feel the need to approach, I just feel like my tools aren’t up to the task and I’m stuck hurling nair around until I catch a break.

Ylink’s got disjoints, sure, but they’re not nearly as robust as the ones wielded by real swordies, so they don’t actually do a ton to control space or get people off of me. Once someone’s on top off you it just feels like a game of praying to the bomb gods for a free escape, a la :ultsnake:, or hoping that putting out an UpB/usmash doesn’t result in losing a stock because you didn’t connect.

Granted, I’m not someone like T. At the end of the day, these concerns could just have to do with me being bad. But I just have to wonder if repeated exposure to the mu at a high level is going to result in Ylink’s zoning game growing kess effective, to the point that characters get in often enough will better exploit his frame data flaws and knock him down a peg.
summarize, I’m basically just complaining that Ylink isn’t actually just Young Snake and posing that as (hopefully) fruitful discussion. I wish I had solid grounded frame data and basically instant bombs. Hmph.
So far, it seems Adult Link jumps around a lot. I've seen him as high as top tier and as low as bottom tier. More high tier placements than low. Surprisingly, most people who put him in high tier tend to put him a tad higher than Young Link. Idk though, I'm very doubtful of it. Young Link seems a lot better imo. Maybe being a former Adult Link main has got me used to calling the low/mid tier area home... but certain qualities about Adult Link that were left unchanged or even nerfed from Smash4 has me thinking he fits more in Mid tier. Sometimes I wonder if there's something I'm missing.

I still think Young Link has borderline top tier potential but no lower than high tier. His damage racking potential is top notch. His frame data is solid. Hes mobile. Has trouble killing sometimes but DOES have kill setups. Theres no way I could see him less than high tier. You're talking about Young Link having nothing faster than frame 6? Have you seen Adult Link's frame data? It's dreadful. They took away his old bombs which effectively cuts the amount of hit boxes he can put out, and THEN even nerfed his jab from Smash4 which was already slow enough! I personally feel more confident up close with Young Link than I do with Adult Link, since he can at least weave in and out much more effectively.

Adult Link is the only one of the three that I'm truly unsure of. I just dont see him in high tier for long. I'd love to be proven wrong, trust me
 
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trickroom

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Any other thoughts on :ulticeclimbers:? They seem to have 0 tournament results so far(in fact, they're the only characters to not appear in the tournament results thread) and I haven't heard much talk about them in general.

I think they are trash. I think they are bottom 10 easy, and possibly bottom 5 considering how good most characters are in this game. They have trash frame data (which bleeds hard into hurting their kill potential), a bad approach game and no long-range to speak of, little protection for Nana (especially with all of the swords), a somewhat exploitable recovery (not awful, though), no answer to projectiles, and disappointing range how laggy everything is. The only truly redeeming qualities I can see in these guys are the damage output/knockback on their aerials and smashes when both Nana and Popo's hitboxes connect, and the meme desync twitter combos. The desync combos are strong for sure, but I think whether or not they save their viability will come down to the practicality of executing them and how true the kill confirm part of them is. At least for the near future, I don’t expect much from these parka-wearers.
 
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The_Bookworm

Smash Champion
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Jan 10, 2018
Messages
2,650
Been a while since I've shared my thoughts on a character. Since I have the game myself and more data on each character in general, I want to give my thoughts on some of the characters.

Before I begin, I find found it hilarious that I was pretty much one of the only people pre-release to say that "just because Bowser got his grabbed nerfed, doesn't mean that it overshadows his drastic buffs", "Samus/DSamus is underrated", "Chrom's recovery doesn't mean it overshadows the rest of his drastic strengths", and "Bayo is heavily overrated". Such unpopular opinions ended up being true in the end lol.


Anyways, the characters:

:ultmegaman: Despite the paragraph above (which is probably unnecessary to exist : p), I couldn't have been more wrong about Mega Man's place. I thought that Mega Man was going to get screwed over by the game mechanics favoring aggression (I basically had the Leffen mindset that projectile users will struggle in Ultimate), the loss of his footstool combos, and the parrying mechanic being a thing. Mega Man got big QoL buffs that overall boost his playstyle in the Ultimate metagame. His ability to wall out opponents with pellets and projectiles, while still being on your face, is second only to Olimar (and maybe ROB). He has really strong damage racking capabilities, while possessing reliable KO power. He seems to be an overall very solid character. I don't think he is as good as the Japan tier list is saying, but a character that can deal heavy damage to anyone when fully mastered.
:ultpichu: Pichu is an interesting character to place. Everyone except for ZeRo is on board for putting Pichu at top tier, even as one of the best characters in the game and even above Pikachu a lot of the times. But at the same time, I don't really think that will last for too long. Despite Pichu's very explosive damage and KO power, it's small size also gives it arguably the worst overall range in the game. Pichu is also made out of paper, and that fact that it deals self-damage to itself, is also a big flaw. I won't deny that Pichu is a good character (that f-tilt is bonkers), but I feel that it is a super high risk-high reward character, and is therefore very inconsistent as a character (similar to SSB4 Lucario). The reason behind it's current popularity over Pikachu is (as already mentioned in this thread), the fact that it was intentionally made as a joke character in Melee and was a bad character because of that, and that people are still in the SSB4 mindset of explosive advantages and thinks little of disadvantage.
:ultcorrin: Just as FastBlade said earlier, Corrin did not deserve those drastic nerfs. He wasn't even top 10 in SSB4 (though very close). They made all of his special moves much worse: Dragon Lunge got big nerfs in utility and safety; Dragon Fang Shot's followup potential is pretty much gone; Counter Surge is much weaker (though it is still strong) and it no longer has a hitbox directly above Corrin; Draconic Ascent now halts his momentum after usage, which combined with his lower jumps, really harms his recovery. His fair's increased startup, slower grab, and his still slow grounded speed also harms him as well. He did end up getting some nice buffs as well, such as improvements to his smash attacks, his up B is much stronger (in a similar vein to Bowser's up B), the decreased landing lag changes (think of falling nair) and the universal jumpsquat changes (previously frame 6) also help him out as well. However, he seems to be inferior to all of his other Fire Emblem brethren, due to his retained weaknesses and nerfs. However, due to his retained strengths and buffs, I think he at worst mid tier (although that is most likely where he will end up in the current moment). I actually learned a little bit more about his changes when writing about this, so his position is kind of ambiguous in my eyes.
:ultlucas: Lucas is a very... interesting character in this game. While I think he is sort of underwhelming in comparison to the a lot of the cast, but I am really loving the direction the developers are taking with the character in this game. In SSB4, it upsetted me that while Ness got all the significant buffs and love, Lucas ended up getting more of a mixed bag: sacrificing a lot of his offensive potential in return of making him a bait and punish grappler-zoning esque character. While he more effective overall in SSB4 than in Brawl, the one-dimensional playstyle can only get so far, especially if the opponent knows the matchup. As a result, he ended being merely a mid tier character with average results overall, while his counterpart got much better representation and results both in peaks and consistency. In Ultimate, they ended up doing the same thing again: Ness got even more significant buffs, while Lucas once again got a mixed bag. However, the fact that the developers are resorting back to Brawl Lucas' offensive playstyle is something I love. The SSB4 playstyle of Lucas wasn't really going to translate very well in Ultimate anyways, and what we got is Lucas with much better hitboxes, approach, and frame data. The down smash and PK Freeze buffs are actually silly strong. But by doing that, they really gutted his damaging combo game in the process, and his buffed offensive ability doesn't feel as impressive as other characters in the game (which includes, once again, his counterpart). I do think he is slightly better overall than in SSB4, but not by much, while the vast majority of the characters ranked below him in SSB4 got much more significant improvements. Still, if his offensive potential gets fined tuned with balance updates, this character will be very frightening to fight against.
:ultbayonetta: I remember back at the E3 demo, when everyone saw MkLeo vs Plup and everyone thought she still top tier, or even the best character in the game. I was one of the very few people who was skeptical on Bayo's place in the metagame. Granted that she was nerfed from the E3 demo, but man I called it out hard. She got the nerf button super hard (probably one of the most nerfed characters in Smash history). Her ability to apply pressure, avoid disadvantage, punish the enemy, and reliably KO the opponent either heavily nerfed or outright removed. By giving her more reasonable hitboxes instead of the ridiculous ones in SSB4, it kind of exposes her frame data issues as well. Her own combo game also got heavily nerfed, as you can now easily DI and directional airdodge out of her combos now with absolute ease. Whenever I play Bayo in this game, I feel outright clunky to play. The game engine changes and everyone getting faster also doesn't really help her out at all. I think she will start out with somewhat decent results at the start of the game, but when more people learns that you can easily DI out of her combos, she is probably going to plummet. Probably an unpopular opinion, but I think she may be one of the worst characters in the game. I honestly feel bad for the dedicated Bayo players who put all of their time and dedication with her in SSB4. Who knows, maybe the Bayo mains will surprise us again because we all thought she was finished after SSB4 patch 1.1.6 came out (granted we still thought she was somewhat decent after the nerfs), but things look very bleak for the witch this time (no pun intended).
#giveherkilloptions
:ultrob: Stuck as a mid tier (albeit solid mid tier) in both of his appearances, this character's official render pretty much describes the how jacked up he is feeling in this game. Since we already talked about him plenty in this thread, I will keep this short and sweet: the fact that he is a projectile user that can play aggressively, plus having an even more broken nair, retained Gyro setups, and still great grab/combo game definitely helps him. Numerous factors from the game engine also provides very huge buffs to ROB. ROB players like WaDi and 8BitMan are already providing very strong results for ROB, and many top players are putting him in the high, and even top tiers. BSD even recently posted a video about a really devastating 0-death combo he can do. Overall, things are really looking up for ROB.
:ultwario: Wario is looking very nice. Ended up being a very solid high tier in Brawl (his range and grab release issues kind of sucked though lol), but then plummeted to mid tier viability in SSB4 (with some saying that he is low tier, although I heavily disagree with that). Losing footstool combos and his Bike getting nerfed kind of sucked (and that turned me down at first during the pre-release days), but oh baby... he got HUGE improvements. There isn't really anything I can say that isn't already said in this thread, so let me finish my thoughts by saying: he is going to bring in the gold.


Btw, what do you guys think of Isabelle and Mii Gunner? Both of those characters where talked about a lot during the pre-release days, but not really talked about post release, and current opinions on both of them are all over the place.
 
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Nobie

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Two unrelated things:

I wonder if it's true that Little Mac does poorly against swords. Mario, I understand: he has stubby limbs. Same goes for any small, up-close character. But Mac has fairly long arms, is super fast on the ground, a frame-1 jab, super armor smashes, and an f-tilt that can go through just aboyt anything. To me, it seems closer to fighting a Needle-less Sheik, who's never had many sword issues. Of course, what Mac doesn't have is a good disadvantage state, and I could see swords being a huge issue once he's in the air.

I keep thinking about the relationship between Mewtwo's grounded normals, and I noticed something about f-tilt while fighting the level 9 CPU Mario: the higher damage on tipper f-tilt lets it clank with Mario's f-smash, whereas tipper d-tilt would just get out-prioritized hard. The damage ratios are the same compared to Smash 4, but the addition of dash canceling moves means choosing the right attack for the job is even more crucial.
 

meleebrawler

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Two unrelated things:

I wonder if it's true that Little Mac does poorly against swords. Mario, I understand: he has stubby limbs. Same goes for any small, up-close character. But Mac has fairly long arms, is super fast on the ground, a frame-1 jab, super armor smashes, and an f-tilt that can go through just aboyt anything. To me, it seems closer to fighting a Needle-less Sheik, who's never had many sword issues. Of course, what Mac doesn't have is a good disadvantage state, and I could see swords being a huge issue once he's in the air.

I keep thinking about the relationship between Mewtwo's grounded normals, and I noticed something about f-tilt while fighting the level 9 CPU Mario: the higher damage on tipper f-tilt lets it clank with Mario's f-smash, whereas tipper d-tilt would just get out-prioritized hard. The damage ratios are the same compared to Smash 4, but the addition of dash canceling moves means choosing the right attack for the job is even more crucial.
Never really understood the sentiment of Mewtwo's ftilt being outclassed by dtilt , especially now that it's knockback is stronger and lower-angled. Sets up edgeguards or Shadow Ball tech chases nicely depending on percent and positioning.
 

Repli.Cant

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Joined
Dec 8, 2018
Messages
62
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The Hills of Radiant Wind
I see a lot of :ultridley: talk but little to no mention of his ftilt. Seriously, this thing is insanely good. Has great range. Angles allow him to cover a pretty decent cone in front of him, covering that blind spot Gérard Majax mentioned. Down angled version can 2 frame a good chunk of the cast, including stuff like Limit Cloud up b. Plasma Breath is there for whatever you can't 2 frame. The sweetspot is pretty easy to space out and hit, and it kills rather reliably as well. It can stop projectiles in their tracks (although I don't think it should be used for that). I hear people talking about how good his nair is when I think ftilt is just as great.

I'm really, really liking :ultridley:. I came into this game wanting to main :ultpalutena: as my definitive #1 but :ultridley: miiiiiiight just squeeze out ahead of her. I dunno, depends on how I... feel. ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

 

boysilver400

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Jul 7, 2018
Messages
138
A few other thoughts now that I’ve unlocked everyone

:ultpichu:At E3, I had very low expectations of him. He’s the lightest in the game, he still hurts himself, and the effects of rage were nerfed, so I thought, “He has to be the worst in the game.” But I was hella wrong. Add me into the crowd who thinks he could actually be better than Pikachu, even if it’s not by much. Pichu just feels a lot smoother than his evolved form and(I think) he has more kill options. However I agree that he might get worse when people get used to the game. But we’ll see.

:ultlittlemac:To say that I’m worried about this guy would be a gross understatement. Call me crazy, but I think he’s actually worse than he was in sm4sh. He still has his ground combos and smash attacks, but he can’t edge guard at all. He couldn’t do it in sm4sh either, but edge guarding wasn’t great in general in that game. Edge guarding is very important in this game, and with his awful airials and even worse recoveries, you just can’t even try(or at least I didn’t) without fearing likely, if not inescapable death. Also air dodging off stage is a death confirm. By far the worst in the game, and it sucks that I have to say “by far” ‘cause at E3, I thought everyone had potential.

:ultbowserjr:Surprisingly not as bad as I thought he’d be. I’m not very impressed, but he doesn’t feel hopeless like Mac. He honestly feels unchanged(although I know he got an overhaul of nerfs, and a few buffs). His recovery is still exploitable and cannonball is still unusable, and I honestly don’t have much to say about him outside of that. I’d say he’s the second worst.
 

MG_3989

Smash Lord
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What do you guys think about :ultness:?

FOW and Awestin have been winning events with over 100 entrants including players like MVD. They are still locals, but I really do feel like Ness' tools this time around allow him to contend better. He still has all the disjoints with nair and fair. His Pk fire is slightly better especially in the air, pk thunder is great tool to harass people offstage and getting some cheesy kills off the top, magnet has a hitbox, Ness' upsmash can kill now, and his downsmash can now lean over the edge allowing for some easy edge guards, dair and pk flash can actually be useful in matches now as well. Directional air dodge as well as magnet gives us a few more options to get back onto stage with mixups.

Do you guys think will he drop off like he did in Smash 4 especially with edgeguarding being strong in this game and or do you think dedicated Ness mains will continue to do work? Would love to hear your guy's thoughts on this!
I personally think Ness is gonna stay high tier especially because there are a lot of reallly strong Ness players out there right now and his kit is just so good. There’s a ton of Ness discussion a couple pages back if you’re interested

Also I was watching a video (I think it was Zero’s can’t remember) and Mii Swordfighter apparently has a ridiculous kill confirm. It’s the tornado into up b and it can kill at like 60 percent (he was doing it in training mode so no DI but still). I wonder how that’ll effect his placement in the meta
 
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SiO2

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Jul 23, 2015
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100
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Btw, what do you guys think of Isabelle and Mii Gunner? Both of those characters where talked about a lot during the pre-release days, but not really talked about post release, and current opinions on both of them are all over the place.
Mii Gunner is very under represented right now, so as a result we aren't seeing much data on her. I personally think she is a solid Mid Tier, though definitely not High Tier. She has a few issues with rush down characters and very fast characters (like :ultpichu::ultpikachu::ultsonic:), but she also has a solid zoning and keep-away game. I think she is one of the few characters that can effectively challenge :ultinkling: and come out at least even.
 

Vincent21

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Messages
166
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So far, it seems Adult Link jumps around a lot. I've seen him as high as top tier and as low as bottom tier. More high tier placements than low. Surprisingly, most people who put him in high tier tend to put him a tad higher than Young Link. Idk though, I'm very doubtful of it. Young Link seems a lot better imo. Maybe being a former Adult Link main has got me used to calling the low/mid tier area home... but certain qualities about Adult Link that were left unchanged or even nerfed from Smash4 has me thinking he fits more in Mid tier. Sometimes I wonder if there's something I'm missing.

I still think Young Link has borderline top tier potential but no lower than high tier. His damage racking potential is top notch. His frame data is solid. Hes mobile. Has trouble killing sometimes but DOES have kill setups. Theres no way I could see him less than high tier. You're talking about Young Link having nothing faster than frame 6? Have you seen Adult Link's frame data? It's dreadful. They took away his old bombs which effectively cuts the amount of hit boxes he can put out, and THEN even nerfed his jab from Smash4 which was already slow enough! I personally feel more confident up close with Young Link than I do with Adult Link, since he can at least weave in and out much more effectively.

Adult Link is the only one of the three that I'm truly unsure of. I just dont see him in high tier for long. I'd love to be proven wrong, trust me

To be fair, I wouldn't wanna get it twisted - I am not making the argument that BotW Link is faring better than Young Link, or that Young Link has problems that bring him down to BotW Link proportions. I strictly think BotW Link is worse than Ylink, and would go as far as to say that BotW Link's improved edge-guarding options with Remote Bombs don't offer him nearly enough compensation for what he loses in recovery and disadvantage, and would be hard pressed to allow him above low tier or lower mid tier.

When I talk about be worried about Young Link's position, I strictly mean I'm just not sure about him having an ironclad grip on high tier. I'm making the case that, while his frame data is definitely better than BotW Link's (hell you could make the case for Ganon having comparable frame data to BotW Link), but just that your basis for whether Ylink's frame data is up to snuff in the context of his high tier mus.

That's the space he competes in. And more importantly, due to the "puzzle-like nature" of zoning, which is to say the way zoning gets overall less effective over time because the potential mix-ups achievable with rigid, limited projectiles are not nearly wide enough to prevent top players from basically learning how to "solve" a zoner and weaken them over the game's lifespan... his frame data is going to become the one fallback that stops him from passing the high tier precipice and falling over the waterfall.

I'd like to draw attention to Game 3 of this set of T's :ultyounglink: vs Seth's :ultinkling: and how, while T dominantly wins the overall set, this particular game of the set help makes my future concerns crystal clear:


Look at what happens when Seth drags T into a claustrophobic stage and just... starts pressing his f3 jab button!

Ylink just.... gets hit. Over and over again. And of course he does. He doesn't have a button to press. Half the percentage he takes during his 2nd stock is literally just not being able to box with jabs at the ledge. And then build up another near free 40 percent on T's final stock, while also paving the way for Inkling to just start pressuring Ylink with sh bairs with a feeling of relative impunity, because of YL forces him to shield? What happens! He outboxes him with jabs, wins the exchange, and starts dunking on him all over again.

And this is just what I worry about with Ylink when everyone says hes a shoe in for high tier. I'm just not so sure. That relies on his zoning tools being rock solid enough to maintain respectable levels of space after years of being downloaded by top players. Will they? Because if they don't, it's all going to be about that f6 prison he uniquely sits in compared to all of his peers NOT named Link. That's just mediocre frame data imo, calling it solid ain't quite right.

Frame data isn't everything, but it is the deciding factor regarding a characters ability to recreate breathing room, box, and deal with tough situations in neutral, at least when you lack a long swordie sword. It's too crucial to easily overlook that Young Link has nothing f4 or earlier.
 

Rocketjay8

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Sep 14, 2018
Messages
293
:ultlittlemac:To say that I’m worried about this guy would be a gross understatement. Call me crazy, but I think he’s actually worse than he was in sm4sh. He still has his ground combos and smash attacks, but he can’t edge guard at all. He couldn’t do it in sm4sh either, but edge guarding wasn’t great in general in that game. Edge guarding is very important in this game, and with his awful airials and even worse recoveries, you just can’t even try(or at least I didn’t) without fearing likely, if not inescapable death. Also air dodging off stage is a death confirm. By far the worst in the game, and it sucks that I have to say “by far” ‘cause at E3, I thought everyone had potential.
You're not crazy. :ultlittlemac: lost so many of his d-tilt and up-tilt combos and his tilts have more endlag. It hurts his damage output and gets rid of all of his kill confirms. F-tilt can still be fallen out of. All of his tilts aren't safe on shield. Smash attacks have dead zones. His KO punch kills later, has less horizontal distance, and has a dead zone directly in front of him, why?! Grounded Side-b has more endlag and decreased range. His recovery is still the same as it was in smash 4 it's just different. He can't use his side b again when he's hit in the air. Up-b has less vertical distance.:ultlittlemac:is tied with :ultbayonetta:the shortest directional air dodge distance in the game. I know that they did this specifically to him because not only does everyone have standardized distances, but he's the only one in the game that has a 6 frame window of vulnerability when he snaps on the ledge with a directional air-dodge. Making the directional air-dodge completely useless for him for recovering.

In all honesty, I think that this character will be at the bottom of the tier list. He retained so many problems that plague him in smash 4 such as his garbage recovery, the worst aerials in the game, terrible disadvantage state due to lack of options in the air, dead zones, and a very linear gameplan that can be exploited heavily. He also gained new problems such as lack of kill confirms, the worst air dodge in the game, and even less reliability on many of his moves (KO punch,and f-tilt). Don't rely on updates to help him, :4jigglypuff: the worst character in the game and didn't receive any buffs throughout it's lifespan. While he does receive the benefits of doing anything out of the dash, his tilts got more endlag. He's going to miss out on a crap ton of tech such as attack canceling because of his craptastic air game. :ultchrom: does everything better than :ultlittlemac:does and more. While he doesn't have super armor, he more than makes up for it for having a sword and a good air and ground game.
 
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Diddy Kong

Smash Obsessed
Joined
Dec 8, 2004
Messages
24,447
Switch FC
SW-1597-979602774
So ZeRo wants to pick up Diddy again? That’s good! That’ll improve my game significantly as well as he improves. Hahah!
 

FishkeeperTimmay!

Smash Ace
Joined
Mar 12, 2006
Messages
673
Location
Pembroke, Ontario, Canada
I kinda starting to wonder about :ultyounglink:‘s long term placement.
How fast is his NAir?

I ask this because Palu has an 8 frame jab and her tilts are even slower, yet many people are placing her high. And no, the counter is not how players are keeping opponents off of her. Counters are great way to get grabbed. And it definitely not her Auto-Reticle. Its practically all about her NAir to keep fast characters off of her. I think there is meaningful parallels there.

Or maybe Palu will fall off to fast brawlers ala Fox?
 

Tri Knight

Smash Ace
Joined
Aug 10, 2015
Messages
745
To be fair, I wouldn't wanna get it twisted - I am not making the argument that BotW Link is faring better than Young Link, or that Young Link has problems that bring him down to BotW Link proportions. I strictly think BotW Link is worse than Ylink, and would go as far as to say that BotW Link's improved edge-guarding options with Remote Bombs don't offer him nearly enough compensation for what he loses in recovery and disadvantage, and would be hard pressed to allow him above low tier or lower mid tier.

When I talk about be worried about Young Link's position, I strictly mean I'm just not sure about him having an ironclad grip on high tier. I'm making the case that, while his frame data is definitely better than BotW Link's (hell you could make the case for Ganon having comparable frame data to BotW Link), but just that your basis for whether Ylink's frame data is up to snuff in the context of his high tier mus.

That's the space he competes in. And more importantly, due to the "puzzle-like nature" of zoning, which is to say the way zoning gets overall less effective over time because the potential mix-ups achievable with rigid, limited projectiles are not nearly wide enough to prevent top players from basically learning how to "solve" a zoner and weaken them over the game's lifespan... his frame data is going to become the one fallback that stops him from passing the high tier precipice and falling over the waterfall.

I'd like to draw attention to Game 3 of this set of T's :ultyounglink: vs Seth's :ultinkling: and how, while T dominantly wins the overall set, this particular game of the set help makes my future concerns crystal clear:


Look at what happens when Seth drags T into a claustrophobic stage and just... starts pressing his f3 jab button!

Ylink just.... gets hit. Over and over again. And of course he does. He doesn't have a button to press. Half the percentage he takes during his 2nd stock is literally just not being able to box with jabs at the ledge. And then build up another near free 40 percent on T's final stock, while also paving the way for Inkling to just start pressuring Ylink with sh bairs with a feeling of relative impunity, because of YL forces him to shield? What happens! He outboxes him with jabs, wins the exchange, and starts dunking on him all over again.

And this is just what I worry about with Ylink when everyone says hes a shoe in for high tier. I'm just not so sure. That relies on his zoning tools being rock solid enough to maintain respectable levels of space after years of being downloaded by top players. Will they? Because if they don't, it's all going to be about that f6 prison he uniquely sits in compared to all of his peers NOT named Link. That's just mediocre frame data imo, calling it solid ain't quite right.

Frame data isn't everything, but it is the deciding factor regarding a characters ability to recreate breathing room, box, and deal with tough situations in neutral, at least when you lack a long swordie sword. It's too crucial to easily overlook that Young Link has nothing f4 or earlier.
I agree, but situations like jab being beaten hurts his disadvantage state. What about his neutral, or his advantage state? Frame data is important. It's one of the biggest reasons why I'm so doubtful of Link's high tier placement, but his is abysmal. But you're right when you say it isn't everything. It will surely effect him when he's in a bad situation, but he's got the ability to reset to neutral fairly well, and I'd argue that he excels at neutral. No, I dont think he needs a frame 4 jab (his nair is frame 4 come to think of it) to be high tier because he's got plenty of other tools to back him up. In that video, the mistake was T trying to be so overly aggressive when on the disadvantage and Seth takes advantage of that. Yes, Inkling was able to overpower him jab locks and safe trades but at the last stock T gets his footing back, takes over neutral, and almost takes 2 stocks himself from such a bad spot.

But on the subject of frame data, start up frames are not everything either. What about end lag? Something that Young Link so severely lacks on a lot of his important attacks. That's just as important, maybe even more than start up time depending on the situation.
 

Minordeth

Smash Ace
Joined
Oct 14, 2014
Messages
898
The hitbox seems to be on his feet and does but it's not a good answer vs projectiles. Most of Ridley is exposed and the hitbox spins so most of the time projectiles will hit his vulnerable hurtbox.
It depends on the projectile, honestly. One AC Nair through a projectile puts Ridley into mid-range, which is where he excels. Also, fwiw, FH full charge Plasma breath eats a wide variety of projectiles and creates openings at the same time.

But how does he force you to approach in any non-lead situation? Sure, he has great tools to punish you for doing it, but that fireball isn't going to force me to come at him unless I have no projectiles of my own.

Or maybe I am the victim of only playing average Ridleys?
FH Full charge plasma breath will eat your shield and is rather hard to jump over or parry. It also eats other projectiles. It's why Ridley does fine against Snake, for instance.

Regardless, Ridley is a swordsman, more or less. With a grab game. And two tilts that outrange basically every other tilt in the game. If he is in mid-range, he can pressure for free.

Also, you play Palu, right? At this point in the meta, she's in the running for Ridley's worst MU, for a variety of reasons, which may be why you don't think he's particularly hard.

EDIT: Palutena is really good. Other than a mediocre OOS game, she has the tools to wreck face.
 
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FishkeeperTimmay!

Smash Ace
Joined
Mar 12, 2006
Messages
673
Location
Pembroke, Ontario, Canada
Regardless, Ridley is a swordsman, more or less. With a grab game. And two tilts that outrange basically every other tilt in the game. If he is in mid-range, he can pressure for free.

Also, you play Palu, right? At this point in the meta, she's in the running for Ridley's worst MU, for a variety of reasons, which may be why you don't think he's particularly hard.

EDIT: Palutena is really good. Other than a mediocre OOS game, she has the tools to wreck face.
On this note; I was playing Dark Pit last night in some drunken smash shenanigans. Managed to place him higher in my GSP than my Palu.... Character crisis?

Digressions aside; I faced a Ridley last night with D.Pit and now I see what you mean. I had to play much better against Ridley. My arrows didn't shut down the Plasma as well as I thought it would. Without Warp to bypass the Plasma, I found I was taking a lot more damage getting back to the stage too. His tilts really forced me to think about my approach instead of just Nairing/Dashing in there with Palu.

Pit has wicked fast attacks (seriously, go look at his Smash Attack frame data), but the active frames are tight. Neutral play was pretty intense where I was trying to punish whiffs and he was trying to outspace. I have more respect for Ridley now, haha.

On a side note; has anyone else played the Pits? I only was able to dig up a couple of tournament vids this morning. He seems pretty strong; awesome frame data, solid projectile, worthwhile throws, great ledge game, good KO options. Found his combo game a little lacking and his mobility low.
 

Envoy of Chaos

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Joined
May 9, 2016
Messages
705
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Rock Hill, SC
How fast is his NAir?

I ask this because Palu has an 8 frame jab and her tilts are even slower, yet many people are placing her high. And no, the counter is not how players are keeping opponents off of her. Counters are great way to get grabbed. And it definitely not her Auto-Reticle. Its practically all about her NAir to keep fast characters off of her. I think there is meaningful parallels there.

Or maybe Palu will fall off to fast brawlers ala Fox?
Palutena has her shield on her dash attack and back air to get her out of close quarter situations if her opponent give her enough space to get either move started. Her jab may be slow but it does have decent reach as well.

But that's supposed to be her weaker area doesn't mean she will fall off because she has visible and exploitable weakness yet is still considers to be a contender for top tier for her strengths, that just means she's balanced.
 

Augi

Smash Cadet
Joined
Dec 12, 2018
Messages
67
What do you guys think about :ultness:?

FOW and Awestin have been winning events with over 100 entrants including players like MVD. They are still locals, but I really do feel like Ness' tools this time around allow him to contend better. He still has all the disjoints with nair and fair. His Pk fire is slightly better especially in the air, pk thunder is great tool to harass people offstage and getting some cheesy kills off the top, magnet has a hitbox, Ness' upsmash can kill now, and his downsmash can now lean over the edge allowing for some easy edge guards, dair and pk flash can actually be useful in matches now as well. Directional air dodge as well as magnet gives us a few more options to get back onto stage with mixups.

Do you guys think will he drop off like he did in Smash 4 especially with edgeguarding being strong in this game and or do you think dedicated Ness mains will continue to do work? Would love to hear your guy's thoughts on this!
I think there's about 2-3 pages of Ness talk on pages 26-29 if you're interested. Just use Ctrl+F.

Any other thoughts on :ulticeclimbers:? They seem to have 0 tournament results so far(in fact, they're the only characters to not appear in the tournament results thread) and I haven't heard much talk about them in general.
I spent a good chunk of time with the Icies last night. They're just not worth it. Though not everything is terrible.

As someone else mentioned about their frame data, they just feel sluggish and frankly, unfinished. It feels like the Dev. team had explicit instructions to bring the hammer down hard on partner characters to the point of ridiculousness.

A lot of it stems from your AI's incompetence. Things like prioritizing move reflection (copying you) over saving their own life when they're close. Example: I was standing near the edge, partner was off stage. I let out a Neutral B to hinder my opponents approach, my partner was just shy of grabbing the stages edge, but close enough to copy me, and did... As a result they missed the ledge, their own icicle bounced off the stage, and by the time the move was finished they were well under the edge, incapable of saving themselves anymore and plunged to a useless death. I was at 60% and had to finish out the stock at half power.

I get that similar-partner character Rosalina was an issue in Sm4sh, but it seems the Dev. team forgot that unlike Luma, I don't just get a new Nana when she dies. Her AI has to be good.

I frequently found myself having to jump off stage to rescue her because she decided not to use Side+B to recover and would rather make due with airdodges and a meager Up+B, which would not have made it.

That said, the Icies have some good moves on the ground when they're together. Like the priority of their hammers, their jab, their Side+B, uptilt. It also wasn't too difficult for me to use their Down+B on 100%+ folks and freeze them, leaving them ripe for a killing... Except that 9/10 times once they're frozen they're JUST out of range of your smash attacks, meaning I had to shuffle forward a step or two, very quickly, THEN smash them; hoping that they didn't release.

There's several things like that, that just feel like they intentionally made it difficult for the player to succeed with the duo. It'd be like DK burying someone with his head-bonk but not being able to reach them with his mega punch unless he shuffles forward a bit. It should be a combo.

There's other things, like the DDD Gordo-esque properties of their Icicles (absurd)....

It's like the guy in charge of putting together the Icies DESPISED them. "Y'know that f-air that gives them a nice high priority, good ranged, powerful attack to approach with? Lets add tons of lag time to the front of it!"

Bottom line, I feel like they have all the right parts needed to succeed. They're just assembled in a way that really punishes the player. They need to severely buff them to make babysitting Nana worthwhile.

As it stands now... nah, just... no.
 
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LightLV

Smash Ace
Joined
Nov 17, 2014
Messages
748
To be fair, I wouldn't wanna get it twisted - I am not making the argument that BotW Link is faring better than Young Link, or that Young Link has problems that bring him down to BotW Link proportions. I strictly think BotW Link is worse than Ylink, and would go as far as to say that BotW Link's improved edge-guarding options with Remote Bombs don't offer him nearly enough compensation for what he loses in recovery and disadvantage, and would be hard pressed to allow him above low tier or lower mid tier.

When I talk about be worried about Young Link's position, I strictly mean I'm just not sure about him having an ironclad grip on high tier. I'm making the case that, while his frame data is definitely better than BotW Link's (hell you could make the case for Ganon having comparable frame data to BotW Link), but just that your basis for whether Ylink's frame data is up to snuff in the context of his high tier mus.

That's the space he competes in. And more importantly, due to the "puzzle-like nature" of zoning, which is to say the way zoning gets overall less effective over time because the potential mix-ups achievable with rigid, limited projectiles are not nearly wide enough to prevent top players from basically learning how to "solve" a zoner and weaken them over the game's lifespan... his frame data is going to become the one fallback that stops him from passing the high tier precipice and falling over the waterfall.
I consistently feel more comfortable playing Link in this game. YLink is an amazing character but he's got a real tough time securing a kill, while Link has multiple high-utility buttons that seal the deal. His zoning is less aggressive and more stage-control but even with his slower buttons his excellent range lets him contest with characters extremely well. For such a versatile character he hits like a truck.

That's just me though. As for the complaining about YLink's frame data.....

I'd like to draw attention to Game 3 of this set of T's :ultyounglink: vs Seth's :ultinkling: and how, while T dominantly wins the overall set, this particular game of the set help makes my future concerns crystal clear:



Look at what happens when Seth drags T into a claustrophobic stage and just... starts pressing his f3 jab button!

Ylink just.... gets hit. Over and over again. And of course he does. He doesn't have a button to press. Half the percentage he takes during his 2nd stock is literally just not being able to box with jabs at the ledge. And then build up another near free 40 percent on T's final stock, while also paving the way for Inkling to just start pressuring Ylink with sh bairs with a feeling of relative impunity, because of YL forces him to shield? What happens! He outboxes him with jabs, wins the exchange, and starts dunking on him all over again.

And this is just what I worry about with Ylink when everyone says hes a shoe in for high tier. I'm just not so sure. That relies on his zoning tools being rock solid enough to maintain respectable levels of space after years of being downloaded by top players. Will they? Because if they don't, it's all going to be about that f6 prison he uniquely sits in compared to all of his peers NOT named Link. That's just mediocre frame data imo, calling it solid ain't quite right.

Frame data isn't everything, but it is the deciding factor regarding a characters ability to recreate breathing room, box, and deal with tough situations in neutral, at least when you lack a long swordie sword. It's too crucial to easily overlook that Young Link has nothing f4 or earlier.
This isn't a matter of worse frame data, it's a matter of one player's significantly worse neutral game. This YLink player completely gave up his advantage at LEAST 5 times in his first 2 stocks and put himself in positions to just get hit again. It's clear that he was spooked.

@8:55 -- He gets combo'd to 55% at the start of the match (not unusual in this game), inkling goes to edgeguard him and fails. Ylink reaches the ledge way before him. It should now be his turn to put on pressure but decides to drop down and upB for no reason, and he gets hit.

@9:06 -- It happens AGAIN, inkling fails to edgeguard but this time Ylink actually lands a Dair. But instead of fastfalling to the ground to push his advantage, he literally does THE stupidest thing possible and puts himself on a platform ontop Inkling and throws a boomerang at nothing

@12:06....literally just lets him jump back on the stage, he gives him tons of space, and then just gets Baird for no reason.


Young Link isn't your typical zoning character, he is an extremely aggressive character who happens to have really good projectiles....i mean the kid basically has no landing lag at all. 3f jab IS amazing but it's not what's holding Ylink back, especially not in this match. The character has an impressive range of projectiles, if he had a 3f jab that goes into a mash combo then it would just be stupid.

IMO i don't even really think inkling is a bad matchup for Ylink....they have the same weakness. Inkling players are notorious for mixing people up with their godlike dash dance animation but Ylink literally doesn't have to look at any of that. I'd give the edge to Inkling in reliability for the same reason everyone else does (roller) but ultimately i think it comes down to whoever gets the ball rolling first.

And this is just what I worry about with Ylink when everyone says hes a shoe in for high tier. I'm just not so sure. That relies on his zoning tools being rock solid enough to maintain respectable levels of space after years of being downloaded by top players. Will they? Because if they don't, it's all going to be about that f6 prison he uniquely sits in compared to all of his peers NOT named Link. That's just mediocre frame data imo, calling it solid ain't quite right.
Young Link isn't designed to maintain respectable levels of space....he's designed to get in your ass.

Zoning tools are for removing options from your opponent, but just because you have them, or just because they're good (Falco's Melee/Brawl laser) it doesn't make you a zoning character.

IMO you're way too caught up on the frame data aspect, it's WAAAAAAAAY less important in this game than it was in Smash 4. It was the be-all-end-all of Smash 4 because options were so sparse that it was all anyone had to go on.
 
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bc1910

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On a side note; has anyone else played the Pits? I only was able to dig up a couple of tournament vids this morning. He seems pretty strong; awesome frame data, solid projectile, worthwhile throws, great ledge game, good KO options. Found his combo game a little lacking and his mobility low.
I picked them up a couple days in and was really impressed. Got round to playing them again for a while last night. Had a similar experience with my GSP funnily enough, I think they are my second and third highest now.

Pretty sure I’m going to include them in my main secondaries. Really strong for all the reasons you mentioned, no hugely abusable weaknesses, plus their edgeguarding is pretty phenomenal.

Does anyone have any thoughts on Pit vs Dark Pit? The main difference is that Dark Pit’s arrows deal more damage and knockback in exchange for less control (they might travel faster too but I’m less sure about that one; a video went up about the Pits’ differences yesterday but I’m too lazy to check). The difference isn’t negligible either; DP’s uncharged arrows deal 6.6% to Pit’s 3.8% and fully charged deal around 20%. Crucially they put characters into tumble a lot earlier which can help set up for KOs, similar to Sheik’s S4 needles. Pit’s are better for edgeguarding and chasing foes in advantage, but they don’t deal much hitstun/knockback and chasing opponents down yourself in advantage is more rewarding. Sniping a double jump with them offstage seems like the only time Pit’s arrows would really be better.

The Electroshock arm usually being better than Upperdash isn’t really a dealbreaker (plus Pit’s is a better Hail Mary option in the corner) but DP’s arrows seem significantly better in neutral and Pit’s superior edgeguarding arrows don’t seem to come into play often enough to make the trade off worthwhile. Not to mention the Pits have excellent edgeguarding without arrows anyway, Fair and multijumps are pretty much all you need.

Anyone else got any thoughts on this? I’d love to be convinced that Pit is better since I much prefer him as a character and his alts to be honest. Shaya Shaya ?
 
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Lavani

Indigo Destiny
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Dark Pit's arrows are non-trivially faster. I don't know the speed params for Pit's, but Dark Pit's in ult compared to 4 are about 8% faster uncharged and 33% faster fully charged, and they were already faster than Pit's in 4.

Damage ranges:
:ultpit:3.2% - 8.6% (1v1: 3.84% - 10.32%)
:ultdarkpit:5.5% - ~14% (1v1: 6.6% - ~16.8%)

On the topic of Pit, Koolaid seems to be dropping him, with recent tweets suggesting he's picking up Cloud.
 

ARISTOS

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I picked them up a couple days in and was really impressed. Got round to playing them again for a while last night. Had a similar experience with my GSP funnily enough, I think they are my second and third highest now.

Pretty sure I’m going to include them in my main secondaries. Really strong for all the reasons you mentioned, no hugely abusable weaknesses, plus their edgeguarding is pretty phenomenal.

Does anyone have any thoughts on Pit vs Dark Pit? The main difference is that Dark Pit’s arrows deal more damage and knockback in exchange for less control (they might travel faster too but I’m less sure about that one; a video went up about the Pits’ differences yesterday but I’m too lazy to check). The difference isn’t negligible either; DP’s uncharged arrows deal 6.6% to Pit’s 3.8% and fully charged deal around 20%. Crucially they put characters into tumble a lot earlier which can help set up for KOs, similar to Sheik’s S4 needles. Pit’s are better for edgeguarding and chasing foes in advantage, but they don’t deal much hitstun/knockback and chasing opponents down yourself in advantage is more rewarding. Sniping a double jump with them offstage seems like the only time Pit’s arrows would really be better.

The Electroshock arm usually being better than Upperdash isn’t really a dealbreaker (plus Pit’s is a better Hail Mary option in the corner) but DP’s arrows seem significantly better in neutral and Pit’s superior edgeguarding arrows don’t seem to come into play often enough to make the trade off worthwhile. Not to mention the Pits have excellent edgeguarding without arrows anyway, Fair and multijumps are pretty much all you need.

Anyone else got any thoughts on this? I’d love to be convinced that Pit is better since I much prefer him as a character and his alts to be honest. Shaya Shaya ?

:ultdarkpit: seems to be better IMO, threat of charged arrows/Electroshock's hail mary options offer higher reward over Pit's good arrow control, since you'll still likely need to go out and kill them anyways.

Do agree that Pit has better alts/win quotes but don't sleep on white/red Pittoo.

Dark Pit's arrows are non-trivially faster. I don't know the speed params for Pit's, but Dark Pit's in ult compared to 4 are about 8% faster uncharged and 33% faster fully charged, and they were already faster than Pit's in 4.

Damage ranges:
:ultpit:3.2% - 8.6% (1v1: 3.84% - 10.32%)
:ultdarkpit:5.5% - ~14% (1v1: 6.6% - ~16.8%)

On the topic of Pit, Koolaid seems to be dropping him, with recent tweets suggesting he's picking up Cloud.
:ultcloud: is amazing so no surprise
 
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Repli.Cant

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:ultbowserjr:Surprisingly not as bad as I thought he’d be. I’m not very impressed, but he doesn’t feel hopeless like Mac. He honestly feels unchanged(although I know he got an overhaul of nerfs, and a few buffs). His recovery is still exploitable and cannonball is still unusable, and I honestly don’t have much to say about him outside of that. I’d say he’s the second worst.
People are super underrating :ultbowserjr: this time around, in my opinion.
While it's true some things got hit (Mechakoopa dying when hitting a shield blows), to say he is otherwise unchanged feels wrong to me.

For starters, using clown kart no longer rids him of his second jump. This is huge, as it lets him stall below stage rather well, or allows him to recover rather high. Mixing up my recovery to get back to stage is really fun.

Speaking of clown kart, the super armor on it is actually noticeable this time around. Sometimes I find myself getting janked out of it though, but overall it feels better to use. It still combos like crazy, giving :ultbowserjr: a great burst of damage if he manages to hit you with it. RamHam (sibe b into up b hammer) is still a great kill confirm that helps him close out stocks. The spinout also kills now! Also, of course, the clown kart hurtbox takes priorty over :ultbowserjr:'s hitbox, which is huge.

Mechakoopa is still a really good pressure tool that helps Jr. approach when placed behind him. The added bonus of MK sticking to people before exploding can let :ultbowserjr: pull off some funny stuff, like stick > fair > explode. I do wish deploying it were a little faster though.

Cannonball actually got really good changes, and what was absolutely my least used move for :4bowserjr: suddenly changed to a really good ranged pressure tool for :ultbowserjr:. It is leagues faster than :4bowserjr:'s Cannonball, in both startup and endlag, as well as charging it. It has 2 hitboxes, 1 as it's flying through the air, and another upon landing. This move does great shield damage. Trying to shield both hits will absolutely deal massive damage to your shield, if not breaking it outright. You can now have 2 cannonballs out at once, a huge change as it allows :ultbowserjr: to set up a pretty formidable wall, with MK on the ground and one or two cannonballs hurtling toward you. At the end of it's travel time, it begin to dip and if it falls offstage it can be used for some pretty great gimps. My favorite is using it like :ultridley:'s Plasma Breath to clip right past the ledge and hit anyone who's trying to recover. I'm not trying to say it's the best projectile or anything, no way. There's still plenty better. But Cannonball is absolutely usable.

His aerials are probably the most unchanged outside of the universal landing lag buffs, which I'm perfectly fine with. Dair still does great damage, fair and bair still autocancel, sh drawback fair still being a great spacing tool, bair still coming out relatively fast and still boasting great kill power, and uair still sets up for great juggles. Nair, however, now autocancels. Being able to cross up shields with it is pretty great, and is a pretty good OoS option.

His grabs was absolutely changed for the better. Losing range means nothing now that it's an actual grab now, with uthrow comboing into several uairs and finally a bair/fair. Dthrow does 15% and the angle sends them at the perfect spot for edgeguarding, bthrow can kill at the ledge at around 130%. Fthrow is still... there.

Finally, his normals. Jab, oh lord, this move. I love it so much. It does great damage. you can actually land the finishing punch, unlike :4bowserjr:'s garbage jab. It can kill at the ledge. A move that is as non-committal as a jab can kill. It is especially scary when you're hanging onto ledge and he's waiting for you to make a move. Utilt hits in front of him and can shark platforms, and can lead into uair strings. Ftilt amnd dtilt are decent midrange pokes.

I know I'm listing a lot of good for :ultbowserjr:, and it may seem like I'm trying to say he's a "secret top tier" or something but know that isn't the case. He does have a good bit holding him back (up b still gimpable as all hell, stronger zoners/projectile characters make it difficult for him to do things, etc.), but even then I just can't say he's 2nd worst, bottom 3, or bottom 5 even. That's just my 2 cents though.

EDIT: Forgot to talk about tilts, my bad. Added.
 
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Spinosaurus

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I'm also of the opinion Pittoo's newly buffed arrows have more value now when it's on a character with an already stellar edgeguard game. I feel Pit loses more from not having a good arrow for onstage.
 
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NotLiquid

Smash Lord
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This fella on Twitter has assembled a couple of handy charts on overall character performance/placings at regionals and nationals in the first month. I figure it's worth sharing here since it gives a good picture of how characters are trending right now.

 
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