Official Competitive Character Impressions 2.0

[NotLiquid]

I think right now Pichu gets to coast pretty easily on the fact that the players who adopt him as a main prefer to get explosive on advantage. Or to put it in another way, I think right now Pichu is only doing so well because we're still stuck in the Smash 4 mindset where you can have the worst neutral and disadvantage in the game as long as you still have the best advantage state. Pichu feels more innately rewarding right now due to her ability to seal off an early stock and rack up a lot of damage but depending on whether the game ends up valuing neutral approach more, especially if swordies become way more popular, I can see Pichu falling down quite hard in favor of Pikachu. She just doesn't have the safety net when it comes to outspacing characters with a greater reach than her (which is a lot of characters on the roster), and to me that inconsistency is going to make Pichu's MU chart extremely lopsided where Pikachu is going to primarily attain more consistency in exchange for less potent (but still very good and extremely buffed) advantage state.

I realize a lot of this is a more complicated way of implying people don't want to learn Pikachu and would rather want "instant gratification: the character".

 

[hermes]

Each shaya post is a delight. For years ^^

Anyways, auto short hop is killing me with megaman. I keep doing accidental shory hop pellets instead of full hops. I am almost dropping him for robin. Robin has surprisingly better duration and power on his spells and his charge time feels faster. I almost never use tilts besides uptilt I think he is a solid mid tier and can surprisingly hold his own against faster threats with aerials spells and jab.

 

[Diddy Kong]

Diddy placing so low in everyone’s tier lists and having no real dedicated top player neither results make me indeed question his viability. You really have to work a lot harder this game to be effective, and Diddy’s disadvantage and lack of air speed is starting to be a major weakness. I still LOVE playing Diddy, literally all my experience with the character since Brawl is needed to play the character well. However, you can’t make mistakes AT ALL! And it doesn’t help that dash attacks now automatically catch the Banana. In some cases, it was the same in 4, but right now it’s far more common to happen, so much that I feel Bananas are only good for punishment.

He’s not as heavily nerfed as say, Bayonetta, Cloud or Sheik, but definitely less effective overall. He needs buffs in air speed, dash attack, up air and forward air to be more effective overall. The nerf on his recovery is also terrible, and definitely unnecessary because it was already bad.

I feel like they really overdid it with nerfing the Smash 4 top tiers honestly. All except for Fox, who’s as strong as ever. Marth is also better, which is weird because Smash 4 initially nerfed him worse than any character mentioned beforehand.

Diddy’s saving grace is probably his matchups against the swordies. He’s doing fine against all what’s considered a top tier at this moment, except for Inkling.

I still say lower High Tier for Diddy, but that might be a bit of a vague placement because many characters feel like they belong there. I feel he’s better than say, Smash 4’s DK, Toon Link and Lucario for example. But time will tell. Diddy was never a very popular character despite his top tier status anyway.

 

[**Gilgamesh**]

A bigger problem K.Rool is going to face that people haven't discussed is that he absolutely sucks at juggling thanks to all his aerials (mainly Uair) having a ton of endling lag. In a Meta where Fox/ Chrom/ Palutena and other characters can rack up or close stocks with just juggling alone, I don't see K. Rool fairing that well. Honestly his projectiles is the only thing saving him from being garbage as a lot of his moves have a lot of commitment such as F-tilt/U-tilt/d-tilt/ all his smashes/dash attack/ fair/ bair/ etc which makes him susceptible to being whiff punished a lot.

 

[MG_3989]

I didn’t fully read this thread so sorry if this a repeat question? What do you guys think Ness’s bad and worst matchups are in this game? Obviously Rosalina is one but outside of that I feel like if I play smart I’m never at too much of a disadvantage. Of course I haven’t played any really high level players yet and matchups are less important at my level of the game but I plan on getting better and possibly competing so I really wanna know who Ness struggles against. Also would Fox be a good secondary to Ness and be able to cover him weak matchups?

 

[FishkeeperTimmay!]

so...how have the Kid Icarus characters been doing overall? I’ve always been seeing placed as a high tier character while seems to switch between top and high tiers, but for some reason I’ve seen inconsistently placed in high, mid, and low tiers...kinda wish I could find all the early tier lists to show what I mean, but that’s a lot of searching to do

is placing well (Lets Make Moves most recently). She has a lot of good tools. The hardest part of playing her well is suppressing the desire to press the B button. Her normals are more rewarding, but players (including myself) opt to follow up with the specials since they are safer. I think her game will improve as players opt to follow up with the A button game, especially when you have your opponent off stage. Leffen had an interesting analysis video showing how players are being so safe with her. She can jump out there with relative safety and has good tools to gimp once out there, but people tend to stay on stage and use d-tilt, u-smash and side b to guard. This will probably get better with time as players get more confident with Warp and stop SDing randomly.

 

[Envoy of Chaos]

I didn’t fully read this thread so sorry if this a repeat question? What do you guys think Ness’s bad and worst matchups are in this game? Obviously Rosalina is one but outside of that I feel like if I play smart I’m never at too much of a disadvantage. Of course I haven’t played any really high level players yet and matchups are less important at my level of the game but I plan on getting better and possibly competing so I really wanna know who Ness struggles against. Also would Fox be a good secondary to Ness and be able to cover him weak matchups?

It's still kinda early to say for sure what matchups are bad for Ness (and for a lot of characters) but he has historically lost to characters who can consistently outrange him and consistently keep him away. Characters like Marthcina and Cloud for example do still beat him the question now is are they still bad matchups or just slightly losing. Ness' initial dash buff and having a PKF that can actually safely contest range at a distance are both huge helps in swordie character matchups. Don't know what to make out of characters like the Belmonts or the new Ike or Chrom yet. Belmont completely outranges Ness yes but you can neutralize cross completely with a hitbox or PKF and parrying his whip along with the initial dash buff Ness got makes getting close to the Belmonts not as impossible as you would think it would be. Plus once Belmont is off stage PKT is legitimately unfair against him and it should be his stock everytime granted you have enough time to get the tail in the way of his whip recovery. There are more to matchups that just recovery (which is why Rosalina probably isn't a bad MU anymore given Luma isn't much of a imposing wall anymore to Ness) but it's really ridiculous enough to make one neutral win that throws Belmont off stage far enough to likely be a stock.

Ike on the other hand was seen as an even MU in 4 because despite superior range wasn't the best at keeping Ness away. Now a lot of his attacks are much safer on shield while keeping the same range and being faster, it makes the matchup feel more Cloud Smash 4 like which isn't good.

Roy was also seen as even and sometimes winning in 4 for Ness because despite the range he still played in your face which is what Ness wants and Roy likely follows the same gameplan in Ultimate but Chrom despite being a Roy echo doesn't suffer from having to purely play in your face he can use his sword to zone more in addition to his speed which may make a difference i haven't played enough Chrom's yet to tell.

 

[MG_3989]

It's still kinda early to say for sure what matchups are bad for Ness (and for a lot of characters) but he has historically lost to characters who can consistently outrange him and consistently keep him away. Characters like Marthcina and Cloud for example do still beat him the question now is are they still bad matchups or just slightly losing. Ness' initial dash buff and having a PKF that can actually safely contest range at a distance are both huge helps in swordie character matchups. Don't know what to make out of characters like the Belmonts or the new Ike or Chrom yet. Belmont completely outranges Ness yes but you can neutralize cross completely with a hitbox or PKF and parrying his whip along with the initial dash buff Ness got makes getting close to the Belmonts not as impossible as you would think it would be. Plus once Belmont is off stage PKT is legitimately unfair against him and it should be his stock everytime granted you have enough time to get the tail in the way of his whip recovery. There are more to matchups that just recovery (which is why Rosalina probably isn't a bad MU anymore given Luma isn't much of a imposing wall anymore to Ness) but it's really ridiculous enough to make one neutral win that throws Belmont off stage far enough to likely be a stock.

Ike on the other hand was seen as an even MU in 4 because despite superior range wasn't the best at keeping Ness away. Now a lot of his attacks are much safer on shield while keeping the same range and being faster, it makes the matchup feel more Cloud Smash 4 like which isn't good.

Roy was also seen as even and sometimes winning in 4 for Ness because despite the range he still played in your face which is what Ness wants and Roy likely follows the same gameplan in Ultimate but Chrom despite being a Roy echo doesn't suffer from having to purely play in your face he can use his sword to zone more in addition to his speed which may make a difference i haven't played enough Chrom's yet to tell.

Thanks for the detailed reply! I actually didn’t play smash 4 so I didn’t know a lot of this. A good player with good spacing with a sword character can definitely give me a little trouble but if I feel like I out space them and take advantage they’re not too bad of a matchup, definitely not unwinnable.

I actually haven’t seen a lot of Rosalina not Belmont’s. I just assumed Ness’s matchup was bad against Rosalina because she literally has a shield in front of her and all the smash 4 data says he is. With the Belmont’s it can be tough but if I’m patient enough I usually win. The one matchup that gave me a ton of trouble was Wolf (which I think it shouldn’t cause I can absorb) but the player may have just been really good. Keep in mind I’m only playing at an intermediate level.

I really wanna pick up Fox in this game but if I’m gonna play competively which I plan on trying I want a secondary that covers Ness’s bad matchups and if Fox doesn’t do that I’ll have to pick somebody else. I know a lot of this is speculation but since they have drastically different play styles they seem like they’d compliment each other well

 

[NeonNote]

I see Peach/Daisy being placed very very highly at several player’s lists. As a dedicated Peach main, I know she was nicely buffed, but do you think it were the direct buffs she received, or the game engine changes that benefitted her most?

 

[Envoy of Chaos]

Thanks for the detailed reply! I actually didn’t play smash 4 so I didn’t know a lot of this. A good player with good spacing with a sword character can definitely give me a little trouble but if I feel like I out space them and take advantage they’re not too bad of a matchup, definitely not unwinnable.

I actually haven’t seen a lot of Rosalina not Belmont’s. I just assumed Ness’s matchup was bad against Rosalina because she literally has a shield in front of her and all the smash 4 data says he is. With the Belmont’s it can be tough but if I’m patient enough I usually win. The one matchup that gave me a ton of trouble was Wolf (which I think it shouldn’t cause I can absorb) but the player may have just been really good. Keep in mind I’m only playing at an intermediate level.

I really wanna pick up Fox in this game but if I’m gonna play competively which I plan on trying I want a secondary that covers Ness’s bad matchups and if Fox doesn’t do that I’ll have to pick somebody else. I know a lot of this is speculation but since they have drastically different play styles they seem like they’d compliment each other well

Well in smash 4 you would be right about Rosalina. Luma was the main reason that matchup was bad (aside obviously not being able to make it back to stage without a DJ.) Ness didn't have a lot of ways to safely remove Luma and Rosalina could easily outbox with its jabs and her large hitboxes which made an aerial approach difficult as well. Luma got nerfed in Ultimate as well as Rosa herself, luma doesn't separate during jabs which is a liability especially given PKF is large enough to trap her as well when Luma is hit by it. Luma is easier to launch in this game and isnt able to act while Rosa is being launched or grabbed now which makes him a sitting duck when you hit Rosa now. Gaining a good Directional air dodge is also very helpful for Ness when trying to recover so he isn't as helpless if he is withou a DJ off stage. The MU is probably closer to even now if not even but I don't think Rosalina is actually a bad character like a lot of people seem to believe, they haven't fully adjusted to her not being complete oppressive and able to just roll away from pressure for free yet.

Fox historically is a good secondary for Ness and Fox still looks top tier in this game so it would be safe to go for imo.

 

[MG_3989]

Well in smash 4 you would be right about Rosalina. Luma was the main reason that matchup was bad (aside obviously not being able to make it back to stage without a DJ.) Ness didn't have a lot of ways to safely remove Luma and Rosalina could easily outbox with its jabs and her large hitboxes which made an aerial approach difficult as well. Luma got nerfed in Ultimate as well as Rosa herself, luma doesn't separate during jabs which is a liability especially given PKF is large enough to trap her as well when Luma is hit by it. Luma is easier to launch in this game and isnt able to act while Rosa is being launched or grabbed now which makes him a sitting duck when you hit Rosa now. Gaining a good Directional air dodge is also very helpful for Ness when trying to recover so he isn't as helpless if he is withou a DJ off stage. The MU is probably closer to even now if not even but I don't think Rosalina is actually a bad character like a lot of people seem to believe, they haven't fully adjusted to her not being complete oppressive and able to just roll away from pressure for free yet.

Fox historically is a good secondary for Ness and Fox still looks top tier in this game so it would be safe to go for imo.

Thanks for all the input! I definitely learned a lot of new things. Skipping Smash 4 put me a little behind lol

 

[NotLiquid]

I see Peach/Daisy being placed very very highly at several player’s lists. As a dedicated Peach main, I know she was nicely buffed, but do you think it were the direct buffs she received, or the game engine changes that benefitted her most?

I'd say it's predominantly her own buffs that make her better as she was already a top tier gatekeeper in Smash 4, but it's a bit of both. Most notable change thanks to the engine is that the float is even more of a busted tool as it circumvents the shorthop multiplier.

 

[Diddy Kong]

I didn’t fully read this thread so sorry if this a repeat question? What do you guys think Ness’s bad and worst matchups are in this game? Obviously Rosalina is one but outside of that I feel like if I play smart I’m never at too much of a disadvantage. Of course I haven’t played any really high level players yet and matchups are less important at my level of the game but I plan on getting better and possibly competing so I really wanna know who Ness struggles against. Also would Fox be a good secondary to Ness and be able to cover him weak matchups?

Fox as a secondary? Yes, do that. Fox seems really solid, possibly even better than in Smash 4. As with Ness? He's also probably stronger than in Smash 4, because PK Fire and PK Thunder are way better, and they where already great. F Air is almost guranteed a follow up, B Throw still kills, PK Fire still traps and deals more damage, PK Thunder actually juggles, kill power and speed are intact. He's looking more attractive to play for me now. Besides, Rosalina is pretty underwhelming in this game, she shouldn't really give you that much trouble now.

Outside of that, Ness is real good against heavyweights, who are massively buffed this time. And he seems to suffer against sword users, and other rushdown types of characters. I think Ness will probably be lower Top Tier honestly.

 

[Lorisaur]

Fox as a secondary? Yes, do that. Fox seems really solid, possibly even better than in Smash 4. As with Ness? He's also probably stronger than in Smash 4, because PK Fire and PK Thunder are way better, and they where already great. F Air is almost guranteed a follow up, B Throw still kills, PK Fire still traps and deals more damage, PK Thunder actually juggles, kill power and speed are intact. He's looking more attractive to play for me now. Besides, Rosalina is pretty underwhelming in this game, she shouldn't really give you that much trouble now.

Outside of that, Ness is real good against heavyweights, who are massively buffed this time. And he seems to suffer against sword users, and other rushdown types of characters. I think Ness will probably be lower Top Tier honestly.

What changed for pk fire and thunder?

 

[Diddy Kong]

What changed for pk fire and thunder?

Not much, they deal more damage, and PK Thunder can actually juggle and kill from the top now.

 

[Fatmanonice]

I do agree with people saying K. Rool will get significantly worse with time because when I see him I see Brawl Dedede and Smash 4 Ryu: a heavy that took a decent fall once people figured them out and got past their "broken" aspects. He's also currently this game's noobslayer like Brawl Ike and Smash 4 Little Mac and we all know how those turned out. I also predict that this will be the third game in a row that Yoshi, Peach, and Lucario will be overrated and will claim their typical spots because of their technicalities and steep learning curves.

 

[TMNTSSB4]

is placing well (Lets Make Moves most recently). She has a lot of good tools. The hardest part of playing her well is suppressing the desire to press the B button. Her normals are more rewarding, but players (including myself) opt to follow up with the specials since they are safer. I think her game will improve as players opt to follow up with the A button game, especially when you have your opponent off stage. Leffen had an interesting analysis video showing how players are being so safe with her. She can jump out there with relative safety and has good tools to gimp once out there, but people tend to stay on stage and use d-tilt, u-smash and side b to guard. This will probably get better with time as players get more confident with Warp and stop SDing randomly.

I never would’ve assumed Palutena was being played safe with some of the sets and combos I’ve seen of her, so that’s interesting

 

[NeonNote]

I'd say it's predominantly her own buffs that make her better as she was already a top tier gatekeeper in Smash 4, but it's a bit of both. Most notable change thanks to the engine is that the float is even more of a busted tool as it circumvents the shorthop multiplier.

That’s what I was thinking too. The new down tilt is such a blessing, and of course the turnips. She’s also a scarier edgeguarder with the airdodge nerfs, and faster and stronger turnips.

 

[Envoy of Chaos]

What changed for pk fire and thunder?

PKF is now frame 18 on start up compared to 21 in Smash 4 which places it right at the realm of reaction (If input delay is still the same as it was in four) which is around 11-14 frames (adding the 7 from input delay). And the move is safer at max distance now on shield due to shield drop being slower meaning it has valid use as a zoning tool at max distance (it still has 59 frames before the FAF so a character with decent air speed can still jump over it and punish so be careful) its two biggest buffs was in terms of aerial PKF and the activation pillar.

Aerial PKF now has around 12 frames of landing lag, meaning if spaced right you can actually use the move to land on shielding opponents. (PKF now pushes you back abit when used similar to Lucas' PKF which aids in this) and this also makes the move an option when combined with techs like PKFJ as an approaching tool (a risky one but very rewarding if it lands). PKF's activation pillar is also larger now, and while it traps about the same as before this makes it so that disjointed attacks that activate the pillar often won't keep the opponent safe from damage (This is incredibly helpful in the Marthcina MU for example) PKF also seems to activate or negate on just about every projectile in this game. PKF will straight negate Fully charged Charge shot, it will stop moves like Belmonts cross or Mega Mans metal blade and activate on contact with an added bonus that the pillar prevents any further projectiles from passing through it (something that helps deal with MM's metal blade ALOT). The move is actually good this time around.

PKT is still roughly the same property wise but with the nerf to air dodges it's stronger now. Since you can't just mash air dodge off stage to avoid the tail it's gimping potential is far greater than before. Since you can't mash air dodge while above the stage either it makes for easier juggling and due to ballon knockback it will kill opponents hit by the ball off the top at low 100s so it's still a great move.

Idk about Ness being a low end top tier, but his strengths definitely got improved a lot in this game to actually matchup with his weaknesses for once. I can definitely see him being a lower/mid end high tier though.

 

[Lord Dio]

A bigger problem K.Rool is going to face that people haven't discussed is that he absolutely sucks at juggling thanks to all his aerials (mainly Uair) having a ton of endling lag. In a Meta where Fox/ Chrom/ Palutena and other characters can rack up or close stocks with just juggling alone, I don't see K. Rool fairing that well. Honestly his projectiles is the only thing saving him from being garbage as a lot of his moves have a lot of commitment such as F-tilt/U-tilt/d-tilt/ all his smashes/dash attack/ fair/ bair/ etc which makes him susceptible to being whiff punished a lot.

Pretty much this. Most of the cast can outzone him or find a way in and take him from 0 to 50 in 5 seconds.
Even worse is that many top tiers (palu, fox, greninja, olimar, inkling, pi(ka)chu, peach/daisy) can do BOTH.
The top tiers in this game have no reason to give a **** about any move K rool throws out, and why should they? They're can outzone him if they choose to, they don't struggle getting in, and if he tries to throw a move out, they're all fast characters with insane combo games, so any whiff punish they get can be potentially fatal.

 

[Augi]

Not seeing much talk about Zelda . She seems to be lost in the very large pile of "Unsorted. Probably Average" characters that the community is still sifting through.

I'm curious how others are seeing her.

I have my own thoughts, but reading these forums, there are times I don't feel qualified to talk about Smash at a high level anymore.

While she's got issues keeping up with CQC (a well placed Nayru/Jab/tilt can help), she seems really good at controlling space. You have to make it through a gauntlet of defensive options (Phantom, Nayrus, Din) that are pretty good at shutting down approaches and ranged fighters. And if you do get close, the range/priority/power of her, somewhat disjointed, multi-hit smashes, jab or throws are ready to send you flying back to square one, or off the stage.

Her air game isn't too shabby, though it requires some precision. Din's Fire can be scary when opponents are offstage since a forced air-dodge/hit/sweetspot is enough of a gimp to kill most, just have to be quick with it. Then dealing with the Phantom waiting for you if you do make it back.

The changes to Phantom are gargantuan; with 5 or 6 distinct attacks levels from it now, some with minor sub variations. It takes up so much of the stage, throwing one out nearly guarantees your opponent will have to react to it in a certain way (Shield/Roll/Run Away/Jump above).

Lastly, though dangerous to use too much cus its an easy read when they watch for it, Farores can still clutch kill a difficult stock in a match.

Zelda just feels exceptionally good at conditioning/controlling your opponent.

But again, these days I don't feel so qualified to speak so boldly. I'm curious how others are seeing her and what some of her other major flaws are.

 

[FishkeeperTimmay!]

I never would’ve assumed Palutena was being played safe with some of the sets and combos I’ve seen of her, so that’s interesting

Leffen comes from a hyper aggressive game/mindset, so he comes with his own biases. Regardless, it was an eye opener to see him break down each time Tweek and Nairo were in offstage situations.

Palu is definitely one of those characters that can really punish people offstage. And she needs to, since she isn't killing you onstage unless she already has you in a juggle situation.

 

[Ziodyne 21]

Leffen comes from a hyper aggressive game/mindset, so he comes with his own biases. Regardless, it was an eye opener to see him break down each time Tweek and Nairo were in offstage situations.

Palu is definitely one of those characters that can really punish people offstage. And she needs to, since she isn't killing you onstage unless she already has you in a juggle situation.

That is not entirely accurate. Palutena's Back-throw kills now, although not exactly an amazing one but its more than what she had in Smash 4. Dash attack and even f-air near the ledge can also kill at very high percents, even f-air near the ledge. But if you want to kill all but the lightest characters before like 160 or something , then yes edgeguarding or juggling is what she needs to do

 

[ad516]

Not seeing much talk about Zelda . She seems to be lost in the very large pile of "Unsorted. Probably Average" characters that the community is still sifting through.

I'm curious how others are seeing her.

I have my own thoughts, but reading these forums, there are times I don't feel qualified to talk about Smash at a high level anymore.

While she's got issues keeping up with CQC (a well placed Nayru/Jab/tilt can help), she seems really good at controlling space. You have to make it through a gauntlet of defensive options (Phantom, Nayrus, Din) that are pretty good at shutting down approaches and ranged fighters. And if you do get close, the range/priority/power of her, somewhat disjointed, multi-hit smashes, jab or throws are ready to send you flying back to square one, or off the stage.

Her air game isn't too shabby, though it requires some precision. Din's Fire can be scary when opponents are offstage since a forced air-dodge/hit/sweetspot is enough of a gimp to kill most, just have to be quick with it. Then dealing with the Phantom waiting for you if you do make it back.

The changes to Phantom are gargantuan; with 5 or 6 distinct attacks levels from it now, some with minor sub variations. It takes up so much of the stage, throwing one out nearly guarantees your opponent will have to react to it in a certain way (Shield/Roll/Run Away/Jump above).

Lastly, though dangerous to use too much cus its an easy read when they watch for it, Farores can still clutch kill a difficult stock in a match.

Zelda just feels exceptionally good at conditioning/controlling your opponent.

But again, these days I don't feel so qualified to speak so boldly. I'm curious how others are seeing her and what some of her other major flaws are.

Yeah, the general consensus is that Zelda was heavily buffed, but it's unknown how she'll fare relative to other former low tiers like Ganondorf and Jigglypuff, who were also tremendously buffed.

 

[Lavani]

Not seeing much talk about Zelda . She seems to be lost in the very large pile of "Unsorted. Probably Average" characters that the community is still sifting through.

I'm curious how others are seeing her.

I have my own thoughts, but reading these forums, there are times I don't feel qualified to talk about Smash at a high level anymore.

While she's got issues keeping up with CQC (a well placed Nayru/Jab/tilt can help), she seems really good at controlling space. You have to make it through a gauntlet of defensive options (Phantom, Nayrus, Din) that are pretty good at shutting down approaches and ranged fighters. And if you do get close, the range/priority/power of her, somewhat disjointed, multi-hit smashes, jab or throws are ready to send you flying back to square one, or off the stage.

Her air game isn't too shabby, though it requires some precision. Din's Fire can be scary when opponents are offstage since a forced air-dodge/hit/sweetspot is enough of a gimp to kill most, just have to be quick with it. Then dealing with the Phantom waiting for you if you do make it back.

The changes to Phantom are gargantuan; with 5 or 6 distinct attacks levels from it now, some with minor sub variations. It takes up so much of the stage, throwing one out nearly guarantees your opponent will have to react to it in a certain way (Shield/Roll/Run Away/Jump above).

Lastly, though dangerous to use too much cus its an easy read when they watch for it, Farores can still clutch kill a difficult stock in a match.

Zelda just feels exceptionally good at conditioning/controlling your opponent.

But again, these days I don't feel so qualified to speak so boldly. I'm curious how others are seeing her and what some of her other major flaws are.

I'm really liking new Phantom. One of my main gripes with Zelda before was her being a precision character with no real way to control space. Phantom allows her to do exactly that, gives her a projectile to advance alongside, and a way to force reactions out of opponents that she can punish with superior options such as lightning kicks.

Speaking of lightning kicks, their sweetspots are nicer in this game; they're both increased in size and are now stretched across her foot, making them much more reliable to land. Should look roughly like this:

I feel new mechanics are generally in her favor as well, particularly with regard to Farore's. Being able to option select upB OoS now means you don't need to predict or react with a risky kill move on characters that aren't outspacing it, and it being an invincible recovery is appreciated in a world with worse air dodges.

She still has dthrow combos, bthrow kills earlier in a world where most characters have worse kill throws.

I feel like by virtue of being a slow precision character in a series generally dominated by fast characters with large oppressive hitboxes that she still isn't exactly good, but I do feel like she has the potential to escape bottom tier at the least. I'm not holding my breath over the lists putting her in mid/high tier, though.

 

[Mister M]

Here's some higher level play of the Ice Climbers. I hadn't really investigated how the obligatory icies shenaneghans was coming along, but this video showcases some strengths as well as weaknesses. There's a tasty zero to death at the 20 minute mark.

https://youtu.be/8hYANqSxa8U

 

[Fastblade5035]

I wanna inquire about the current state of . Bit of a bold statement, maybe, with how Bayonetta is now, but I feel like Corrin might be the most over-nerfed of the final Smash 4 DLC trio (Corrin, Cloud, and Bayonetta). Cloud and Bayonetta were both always dominant, so I understand why they got taken down so many pegs.
But Corrin? I really don't see how Corrin deserved the nerfs he got. I mean, really, any nerfs outside pin at all. Even the pin nerfs seem a bit much.

But my biggest issue isn't just that Corrin was nerfed, it's that... what incentive is there now to play Corrin? His pin is something, but it's way less impressive and less of a draw than it was in 4. Outside that you're left with a decent Fsmash that'll make you wish you were playing Belmont instead, and all his other normals are pretty much just worse than Marth, Roy, Lucina, and Chrom, and even Ike. Hell, I'd go as far as to say Robin is better off than Corrin. Arcfire is insanely rewarding if it lands, Levin Sword is ridiculously strong, Robin loves the speed buff whereas Corrin still feels sluggish.
I guess what I'm trying to say is, looking at his kit, from a viability/competitive viewpoint, I struggle to find a reason to use Corrin over literally any other FE. I feel like the advantages you might gain from Pin or his other unique moves are way less useful now in a game where his competition has outright better comprehensive movesets and frame data and speed.

Corrin kind of reminds me of S4 Launch Marth.

Edit: If anyone's got tourney results for Corrin, I'm really interested in seeing some stats there. The only Corrin player I'm even aware of is Thunderlit right now, who lost to Disgaea's Lucina/Pichu at Xanadu just recently.

 

[Rizen]

's gotten some noteworthy results in large tournaments like The Pinnacle 2018 (246 Entrants) 5th and Midwest Mayhem Ultimate (385 entrants) 3rd. We only have a few weeks of data but YL has a good showing to be the best Link and a high tier. I feel like the best example of YL is T vs Fatality in Midwest Mayhem, where both are top players who know what they're doing. T gives an exelent display of YL's zoning and burst options. Like in SSB4, T's probably the best (Young) Link player.

 

[Guido65]

Re talk: Honestly I very much agree with the fact that he's gonna fall off hard and could be the worst heavy in time. He's honestly the type of character that really punishes a complete lack of patience on the opponents part and not being aware of his gimmicks. When compared to other heavies like dk incineroar or Ridley(whom I believe is better than k rool to be completely honest) he lacks in key qualities in neutral that these characters possess and in advantage state as well. Compared to them k rool lacks safe pokes and good moves to juggle the opponent with. Using as an example, he has much safer moves for the most part along with extremely high reward. His ftilt for instance, while a bit slow along with not having the best range is quite safe on shield due to how far it pushes back and has kill power comparable to links forward tilt. He also has much better juggling moves with his much better up tilt, and up air which is among the best of it's kind. DK has a lot of the above mentioned but he also has his bair and amazing mobility.

 

[trickroom]

So yea these are so very big nerfs, for Smash 4 Pac. In the context of Ultimate, these don't really mean that much.

I agree that this is absolutely necessary to understand Pac-Man's viability right now. He's one of those characters where playing him like you would in Sm4sh will get you nowhere, but approaching him from scratch, without that muscle memory, allows you to explore what he really can do. I was ready to write an essay in here about how Pac-Man was the worst character in the game when I first tried playing him Sm4sh-style -- watching Sinji, of course, shows you the right way to do it. In Ultimate, a more grounded style that uses his buffed normals, grab that actually works, and the tradtional "I throw a projectile and then aerial you when you try to jump over it" zoner option coverage serves him better than the old the old "I jump all over the place and zdrop things and hope you drop shield" style.

I do miss the old uptilt though. Pisses me off that every little moveset change to existing characters (Mewtwo ftilt, Pika nair, Wario DA) gave them more unique moves, but they took the cool combo starter head bob and made it into the same upward punch everyone else has.

 

[MG_3989]

Fox as a secondary? Yes, do that. Fox seems really solid, possibly even better than in Smash 4. As with Ness? He's also probably stronger than in Smash 4, because PK Fire and PK Thunder are way better, and they where already great. F Air is almost guranteed a follow up, B Throw still kills, PK Fire still traps and deals more damage, PK Thunder actually juggles, kill power and speed are intact. He's looking more attractive to play for me now. Besides, Rosalina is pretty underwhelming in this game, she shouldn't really give you that much trouble now.

Outside of that, Ness is real good against heavyweights, who are massively buffed this time. And he seems to suffer against sword users, and other rushdown types of characters. I think Ness will probably be lower Top Tier honestly.

Thanks! Yeah I love how Ness feels this game. He has so many options and almost every one of his moves have a purpose (other than uthrow and PK Flash which still might have some utility) and his air game is phenomenal. The way he can mix it up in the neutral and keep an opponet off guard when in advantage is noticeable to me. His recovery isn’t as bad as people think with his double jump, psi magnet, directional air dodge magnet hands, you just have to keep yourself out of bad situations off stage. I’ve been maining him since Melee and this is the best he’s ever felt to me. There are a ton of heavies online right now and I imagine DK and K-Rool are gonna stick around so that’s good. I’m really hoping he sticks around the top this time around since he’s always been mid-tier and it’s nice having your main fall into a good situation in the new game

 

[fozzy fosbourne]

I wonder if there are any characters that have been more highly regarded/successful in the japanese meta than the western meta. Mega man and ZSS are doing good but have some strong players?

 

[MapleBeasts]

I didn’t fully read this thread so sorry if this a repeat question? What do you guys think Ness’s bad and worst matchups are in this game? Obviously Rosalina is one but outside of that I feel like if I play smart I’m never at too much of a disadvantage. Of course I haven’t played any really high level players yet and matchups are less important at my level of the game but I plan on getting better and possibly competing so I really wanna know who Ness struggles against. Also would Fox be a good secondary to Ness and be able to cover him weak matchups?

To answer your question I think Fox is going to be another tough matchup for Ness(perhaps why you're considering him as a secondary?). Shine is bad news for Ness if he reads a pk fire as it confirms combos and allows him to not care about thunder if he's offstage. Fox in general with his recovery mix ups and shine will be difficult for Ness to edgeguard. Because a Fox still has a fantastic combo game and good kill power on usmash, uair, and bair he has no issues taking stocks from Ness.

I think Pikachu is another matchup that's gonna be tough for Ness. His edge guarding is excellent and his combos and frame data mean that the Ness will be offstage a fair amount, a place where Ness you as the Ness don't really want to be. Quick attack make Pikachu borderline impossible to edgeguard and his speed, small hit box, and other tools give him the ability to win neutral. Pika also has a disgusting advantage state.

 

[MG_3989]

To answer your question I think Fox is going to be another tough matchup for next (perhaps why you're considering him as a secondary?). Shine is bad news for Ness if he reads a pk fire as it confirms combos and allows him to not care about thunder if he's offstage. Fox in general with his recovery mix ups and shine will be difficult for Ness to edgeguard. Because a Fox still has a fantastic combo game and good kill power on usmash, uair, and bair he has no issues taking stocks from Ness.

I think Pikachu is another matchup that's gonna be tough for Ness. His edge guarding is excellent and his combos and frame data mean that the Ness will be offstage a fair amount, a place where Ness you as the Ness don't really want to be. Quick attack make Pikachu borderline impossible to edgeguard and his speed, small hit box, and other tools give him the ability to win neutral. Pika also has a disgusting advantage state.

All the foxes and pikas I’ve played don’t really know how to space correctly and I can usually get them in advantage but again I’m only play at intermediate level and I know a good player would give me a ton of trouble with those two especially if they got on top of me. Pikachu off stage scares me a lot. This is exactly why I’m thinking about picking up Fox because I know Ness is going to end up having at least one or two weak top tier matchups and I want Fox to cover that ground

 

[MapleBeasts]

All the foxes and pikas I’ve played don’t really know how to space correctly and I can usually get them in advantage but again I’m only play at intermediate level and I know a good player would give me a ton of trouble with those two especially if they got on top of me. Pikachu off stage scares me a lot. This is exactly why I’m thinking about picking up Fox because I know Ness is going to end up having at least one or two weak top tier matchups and I want Fox to cover that ground

Fox is a great pick for a secondary if you ask me. He's just as good as he was in Sm4sh (one of the only top tiers that didn't get gutted weirdly) and should have an even to favourable matchup spread against the characters that Ness might struggle against (Palutena, Rosalina, Pits). His vertical kill power is also really good as it will help neutralize the recoveries of other top tiers like Pika/Pichu and Inkling. If I could make a recommendation, I would also look at picking up a swordie. A lot of them have the ability to space out Ness and the mobility to deal with projectiles. They can space out a huge portion of the cast and look to be mainstays in the high tiers. Marth in particular is a good choice as there is no character that will better teach you spacing and reward you for it. He's also a safer investment than Chrom as he's getting tons of attention in the community and is more likely to get nerfs.

 

[MG_3989]

Fox is a great pick for a secondary if you ask me. He's just as good as he was in Sm4sh (one of the only top tiers that didn't get gutted weirdly) and should have an even to favourable matchup spread against the characters that Ness might struggle against (Palutena, Rosalina, Pits). His vertical kill power is also really good as it will help neutralize the recoveries of other top tiers like Pika/Pichu and Inkling. If I could make a recommendation, I would also look at picking up a swordie. A lot of them have the ability to space out Ness and the mobility to deal with projectiles. They can space out a huge portion of the cast and look to be mainstays in the high tiers. Marth in particular is a ice as there is no character that will better teach you spacing and reward you for it. He's also a safer investment than Chrom as he's getting tons of attention in the community and is more likely to get nerfs.

Thanks for the advice! I already know Marth enough to feel comfortable in a competitive battle with him so he is always up my sleeve

 

[TMNTSSB4]

Leffen comes from a hyper aggressive game/mindset, so he comes with his own biases. Regardless, it was an eye opener to see him break down each time Tweek and Nairo were in offstage situations.

Palu is definitely one of those characters that can really punish people offstage. And she needs to, since she isn't killing you onstage unless she already has you in a juggle situation.

Ah...I suppose being more of an aggressive player shows Leffen will go in when needed...or for style points

 

[Envoy of Chaos]

To answer your question I think Fox is going to be another tough matchup for Ness(perhaps why you're considering him as a secondary?). Shine is bad news for Ness if he reads a pk fire as it confirms combos and allows him to not care about thunder if he's offstage. Fox in general with his recovery mix ups and shine will be difficult for Ness to edgeguard. Because a Fox still has a fantastic combo game and good kill power on usmash, uair, and bair he has no issues taking stocks from Ness.

I think Pikachu is another matchup that's gonna be tough for Ness. His edge guarding is excellent and his combos and frame data mean that the Ness will be offstage a fair amount, a place where Ness you as the Ness don't really want to be. Quick attack make Pikachu borderline impossible to edgeguard and his speed, small hit box, and other tools give him the ability to win neutral. Pika also has a disgusting advantage state.

Fox and definitely are not Pikachu
tough MUs for Ness.

Fox-Ness in smash 4 was widely seen as even, even some Fox players went as far to call it winning for Ness. Fox is fast yes but Fox also doesn't have a lot of range and if your character has to play close to Ness it's not going to be easy for you. Ness' combo game is just as potent on Fox he's one of the easiest characters to combo in smash and being one of the lightest characters isn't good against a character like Ness who oozes in kill power and has legit ways to land his killing moves. You simply don't use PKF in neutral to avoid shine and shine does not block the tail of PKT so trying to use shine off stage to avoid PKT just forces Fox to aim for the ledge with a recovery that gets completely blown up by down smash off the ledge. Fox can't afford to recover low in this matchup at all. On the flip side Fox falls quite fast he can't go off stage to try to disrupt PKT freely and has to take a risk each time he does so. If ness delays his PKT2 or just DAD's to ledge he can escape potential shine gimps without an issue. Fox is much better suited to just stay on ledge and ledge trap rather than challenging the move unless the ness does something dumb like recover a few feet away from the ledge with PKT2.

Pikachu is similar, and in smash 4 that matchup was definitely winning for Ness. Pikachu cannot approach Ness safely, Ness negates Pikachu's Thunder Jolt which means Pikachu has no answer for the mid or long range game and is forced to approach without it (especially since Magnet has a hitbox now making it even safer to absorb Tjolts covering an approach.) Ness' Nair and Fair in particular completely wall out all of Pikachu's approach options without much risk to Ness and Ness will out damage Pikachu every neural interaction he wins compared to Pika. It's not like Ness has bad aerial frame data at all it's actuall quite good where it matters so he's not losing trades either. Quick attack is not hard to intercept with an attack it makes Pikachus hitbox bigger and still gets beat out by any of Ness aerials or yoyo smashes at the ledge. Pikachus small size also doesn't matter to Ness because Ness is small himself and his hitboxes aren't. Pikachu does have the benefit of being a great edge guarder when Ness is off stage for sure but he can't easily get Ness there.

 

[Rizen]

Fox and definitely are not Pikachu
tough MUs for Ness.

Fox-Ness in smash 4 was widely seen as even, even some Fox players went as far to call it winning for Ness. Fox is fast yes but Fox also doesn't have a lot of range and if your character has to play close to Ness it's not going to be easy for you. Ness' combo game is just as potent on Fox he's one of the easiest characters to combo in smash and being one of the lightest characters isn't good against a character like Ness who oozes in kill power and has legit ways to land his killing moves. You simply don't use PKF in neutral to avoid shine and shine does not block the tail of PKT so trying to use shine off stage to avoid PKT just forces Fox to aim for the ledge with a recovery that gets completely blown up by down smash off the ledge. Fox can't afford to recover low in this matchup at all. On the flip side Fox falls quite fast he can't go off stage to try to disrupt PKT freely and has to take a risk each time he does so. If ness delays his PKT2 or just DAD's to ledge he can escape potential shine gimps without an issue. Fox is much better suited to just stay on ledge and ledge trap rather than challenging the move unless the ness does something dumb like recover a few feet away from the ledge with PKT2.

Pikachu is similar, and in smash 4 that matchup was definitely winning for Ness. Pikachu cannot approach Ness safely, Ness negates Pikachu's Thunder Jolt which means Pikachu has no answer for the mid or long range game and is forced to approach without it (especially since Magnet has a hitbox now making it even safer to absorb Tjolts covering an approach.) Ness' Nair and Fair in particular completely wall out all of Pikachu's approach options without much risk to Ness and Ness will out damage Pikachu every neural interaction he wins compared to Pika. It's not like Ness has bad aerial frame data at all it's actuall quite good where it matters so he's not losing trades either. Quick attack is not hard to intercept with an attack it makes Pikachus hitbox bigger and still gets beat out by any of Ness aerials or yoyo smashes at the ledge. Pikachus small size also doesn't matter to Ness because Ness is small himself and his hitboxes aren't. Pikachu does have the benefit of being a great edge guarder when Ness is off stage for sure but he can't easily get Ness there.

Ness definitely feels like a high tier in this game. Who would you say gives Ness trouble?

 

[MG_3989]

Ness definitely feels like a high tier in this game. Who would you say gives Ness trouble?

I mean like I’ve said I’m still an intermediate player who hasnt really played top level competition but one Wolf player gave me fits (he might have just been really good). Fast characters like Fox, the swordies, and Captin Falcon can give Ness trouble if they take advantage but it’s really hard for them to take advantage and I don’t have an especially hard time with any of them and win the majority of match ups against them. A really good zoner with good spacing could be a problem but Ness takes away a lot of zoner’s tools with psi magnet. I can’t say there’s any matchups I’ve played where I feel disadvantaged. Everything feels in my favor or at least winnable if I play well. He’s got so many tools, so many ways to kill, and great edge guarding. He has an option for every situation. Yeah he sucks off stage but try getting a good Ness player off stage. It’s not easy