Official Competitive Character Impressions 2.0

[Envoy of Chaos]

Ness definitely feels like a high tier in this game. Who would you say gives Ness trouble?

At this very moment Cloud and Marthcina for reasons all too familiar to him. Safe disjoints that can control space too well. The nerf to air dodges hurts his ability to wiggle out of their fantastic juggle games and hurts a lot when Ness is off stage without a jump and out of range he can just DAD to ledge. On the positive side for Ness, the buff to PKF's pillar and his initial dash buff (he moves as fast as Pit runs during the initial dash which make foxtrots really good for him) has helped a lot in those matchups because it means they can't just throw hitboxes complete for free but it for sure doesn't make it easy to approach. I also don't know how to feel about Ike, his Nair gives me Corrin flashbacks from Smash 4. I've literally only played like one Corrin but I can't imagine that matchup is any better as well. One MU I can say for sure I think has gotten a lot harder for Ness is Zelda. Phantom is not easy to deal with and Zelda can cover any attempt to jump over it easily with her Nair or up tilt and even her very dangerous lighting kicks. Attempting to just shield it either gets you grabbed or a ton of shield pressure applied to you and running away from it just gives her center stage where she can continue to walk Ness out. You can't use PKF to contest range with her because Naryu's and even if it hits her you can still reflect the pillar with Naryu's. Faore's wind also prevent down smash from being a thing ever. It's been pretty annoying for me so far.

Personally I don't know how to feel about Belmonts quite yet. The range is of course nothing Ness can contest outright but like once Ness is next to a Belmont he falls apart hard, it might be enough to not make that MU a bad one for Ness either.

Im still exploring a lot of the other MUs in this game. I don't feel like Inkling, K. Rool or Isabelle are difficul currently for him, Ridley is probably the one newcomer that might give Ness some issues in the future. He definitely feels like a high tier character right now if I had to say he's at the lower end of it right now. I still have a lot of experience I need to get with most of the characters in this game before I'm comfortable calling anything yet.

 

[MG_3989]

At this very moment Cloud and Marthcina for reasons all too familiar to him. Safe disjoints that can control space too well. The nerf to air dodges hurts his ability to wiggle out of their fantastic juggle games and hurts a lot when Ness is off stage without a jump and out of range he can just DAD to ledge. On the positive side for Ness, the buff to PKF's pillar and his initial dash buff (he moves as fast as Pit runs during the initial dash which make foxtrots really good for him) has helped a lot in those matchups because it means they can't just throw hitboxes complete for free but it for sure doesn't make it easy to approach. I also don't know how to feel about Ike, his Nair gives me Corrin flashbacks from Smash 4. I've literally only played like one Corrin but I can't imagine that matchup is any better as well. One MU I can say for sure I think has gotten a lot harder for Ness is Zelda. Phantom is not easy to deal with and Zelda can cover any attempt to jump over it easily with her Nair or up tilt and even her very dangerous lighting kicks. Attempting to just shield it either gets you grabbed or a ton of shield pressure applied to you and running away from it just gives her center stage where she can continue to walk Ness out. You can't use PKF to contest range with her because Naryu's and even if it hits her you can still reflect the pillar with Naryu's. Faore's wind also prevent down smash from being a thing ever. It's been pretty annoying for me so far.

Personally I don't know how to feel about Belmonts quite yet. The range is of course nothing Ness can contest outright but like once Ness is next to a Belmont he falls apart hard, it might be enough to not make that MU a bad one for Ness either.

Im still exploring a lot of the other MUs in this game. I don't feel like Inkling, K. Rool or Isabelle are difficul currently for him, Ridley is probably the one newcomer that might give Ness some issues in the future. He definitely feels like a high tier character right now if I had to say he's at the lower end of it right now. I still have a lot of experience I need to get with most of the characters in this game before I'm comfortable calling anything yet.

The Belmont matchup is definitely really uncomfortable but like you said if you break through and get them off stage they’re done. You can juggle and gimp them and harass them up close with your aerials. It could be a bad matchup but definitely not unwinnable. Inkling, K Rool, and Isabelle aren’t really hard matchups to me, they’re just all annoying characters you have to stay patient against. Ness eats all of Inklings projectiles, combos K Rool easily, and once he gets close to Isabelle she’s done

 

[J0eyboi]

(he moves as fast as Pit runs during the initial dash which make foxtrots really good for him)

He absolutely does not.

 

[PK Bash]

To answer your question I think Fox is going to be another tough matchup for Ness(perhaps why you're considering him as a secondary?). Shine is bad news for Ness if he reads a pk fire as it confirms combos and allows him to not care about thunder if he's offstage. Fox in general with his recovery mix ups and shine will be difficult for Ness to edgeguard. Because a Fox still has a fantastic combo game and good kill power on usmash, uair, and bair he has no issues taking stocks from Ness.

I think Pikachu is another matchup that's gonna be tough for Ness. His edge guarding is excellent and his combos and frame data mean that the Ness will be offstage a fair amount, a place where Ness you as the Ness don't really want to be. Quick attack make Pikachu borderline impossible to edgeguard and his speed, small hit box, and other tools give him the ability to win neutral. Pika also has a disgusting advantage state.

Some Ness vs Fox sets for your entertainment
BestNess vs Larry Lurr https://ssbworld.com/watch/?v=rV4SY1FzPNE
Awestin vs JaySon https://ssbworld.com/watch/?v=nHWYdAXHC54

What are the takeaways?
Well, that Ness has very sound counterplay to the situations you present.

- Notice how Shine is not the issue for PK Fire usage - it is just as effective (and more sensible for the Fox player) for Fox to simply jump and punish on reaction.

- The Fox players do not attempt to Shine PKT when Ness is recovering. BestNess simply doesn't give Larry the option most of the time, but in general you can see that Fox would rather stay firmly on stage. There's a good reason for this, and Envoy of Chaos has kinda touched on it: it's quite often not worth the risk for Fox to attempt an edgeguard.

- At 3:47 of Awestin vs JaySon, Fox goes for a Shine attempt to prevent the PKT edgeguard but Awestin simply uses PKT to force JaySon to stay in Shine, trapping him into a low recovery that Awestin nearly spikes. For matchup theorycraft purposes, you can hopefully see how this kind of thing should be a free stock for Ness. In general, no matter how Fox recovers, you can hopefully see that Ness can handle this easily. BestNess may have dropped some edgeguards which might alarm you, but that's nothing to do with Ness: the character clearly has everything he needs to handle Fox's recoveries consistently and effectively, regardless of how Fox chooses to recover at any given time.

- Fullhop nair (and other aerial approaches) is something we see a lot from both JaySon and Larry to try to get a good angle to hit Ness from, and is certainly one of Fox's more practical ways of getting something going in the mu, but as we can see Ness is not overwhelmed and in fact has responses to balance the risk-reward. What is key here is that Fox has trouble dealing with Ness' hitboxes and strong out of shield options. Fox doesn't really pressure Ness for free like he can do a lot of characters so that's something really nice going for Ness. Makes it harder for Fox to get Ness offstage just by using his frame data and what have you - Ness' own frame data and hitboxes are good enough to keep par.

- We can also see that Fox's combo game on Ness isn't too terrifying: observe how the Ness players use Nair a lot to challenge Fox's aggressive combo/string tools. Probably the clearest example of how this works can be seen at 6 minutes into Awestin vs JaySon or 2:30 in BestNess vs Larry where they use nair to break out of low % nair strings and this basic interaction works in most situations where Fox might threaten Ness. Naturally this isn't infallbile - Larry shows us how effective it can be for Fox to just wait for Ness to put out an attack to challenge Fox and punish readily - but it is an important aspect of the matchup: Fox can't keep risking trading with nair (he's too light and vulnerable) and Ness can leverage this to his advantage to minimise the damage he takes when he loses neutral.

Hope this was of use to you and some food for thought? Hope to see you around to talk about Ness some more anyway!
I'd love to do the same thing for Pikachu, but this post is big enough tbh and I don't really have the time. Maybe you can check out some Ness-Pikachu videos and compare your points, as well as think of other important parts of that matchup you didn't bring up?

Ness definitely feels like a high tier in this game. Who would you say gives Ness trouble?

I know you didn't ask me lol but while I'm here. His tougher matchups are what you'd expect them to be. Swords mainly, or at least the good swords. Characters that can safely control a lot of air space with hitboxes Ness struggles to challenge or otherwise work around. Finding vulnerabilities on fast sword characters is pretty hard for Ness and he can struggle to pose threats in neutral, mostly resorting to whiff punishing an aerial when possible, and of course getting aerials in when he can and making the absolute most out of any hit he lands on a shield (or indeed the character) with solid reads on what they'll do next and whatnot. You can't waste any opportunity like that, because god knows when you'll get another.
That said, when it comes to advantage, PKT is very good against all the sword characters to juggle, edgeguard, gimp and set up, and give Ness the ability to carry his neutral wins against them very far in this game. If he didn't have that crazy potential there these matchups would really suck.
Aside from that, his matchups seem pretty alright to me honestly. Even Belmont and that. We'll see what happens, there's a lot of development to undergo for now before we can really be confident on anything.

 

[MG_3989]

I think Ness will see a lot more play this game because of his early success and that may develop his meta further than it has before. I don’t think he’ll be top tier but I think he’ll be high to mid and definitely not lower than that. I’m super excited my main is finally relevant

 

[Tri Knight]

I think Ness will see a lot more play this game because of his early success and that may develop his meta further than it has before. I don’t think he’ll be top tier but I think he’ll be high to mid and definitely not lower than that. I’m super excited my main is finally relevant

It's definitely nice to see your favorite characters be placed in a relevant spot. I went years without seeing that lol

 

[MG_3989]

It's definitely nice to see your favorite characters be placed in a relevant spot. I went years without seeing that lol

It really is. It’s nice to look at the tournament results thread and see Ness in a ton of top 8s even with wins and a good amount of second and third place finishes

 

[Kellojolly]

Cloud has been great so far. I got him to elite smash with him and it’s been fun and he feels powerful. Ininitially, I thought he would feel weak due to the substantial nerf he received since ssb4. And they are. I mainly feel his aerial game is what I really feel sad about. However, he still feels REALLY strong. I do wish his range on some of his attacks would be bigger though. What are your thoughts? I’d appreciate some discussion in cloud since most of you guys are probably much better than I am as a player and in analyzing characters.

 

[Envoy of Chaos]

He absolutely does not.

Initial dash. Ness' initial dash speed is 1.826 while Pit's run speed is 1.828. Meaning Ness moves nearly as fast as Pit runs during Ness' initial dash.
http://kuroganehammer.com/Ultimate/DashSpeed

 

[J0eyboi]

Initial dash. Ness' initial dash speed is 1.826 while Pit's run speed is 1.828. Meaning Ness moves nearly as fast as Pit runs during Ness' initial dash.
http://kuroganehammer.com/Ultimate/DashSpeed

I'm aware. Read the spreadsheet, his effective speed during a foxtrot is under 1.6

Fine, I'll explain it better. Your character only moves at their initial dash speed on frames 2-6 (3-7 for backdashes) of their dash. After that point, it's either incremented by their dash acceleration or decremented by their traction every frame until it matches up with their run speed. So while Ness' initial dash speed is 1.8, his average speed across his foxtrot is just below 1.6, which is decidedly not good.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

I think people are overating the mewtwo a lot. I could see if some of the sm4sh m2 players still played him but from what I can tell they've all dropped him. Yet he's high tier....Anyways I still think snake is the best character in the game and if Chrom is the best sword character, characters like wario will dominate. I feel like ice climbers will becomae a huge problem as well if their desync shenanigans are good.

 

[Ajani]

I think people are overating the mewtwo a lot. I could see if some of the sm4sh m2 players still played him but from what I can tell they've all dropped him. Yet he's high tier....Anyways I still think snake is the best character in the game and if Chrom is the best sword character, characters like wario will dominate. I feel like ice climbers will becomae a huge problem as well if their desync shenanigans are good.

What overrates him? Are there any notable players that have dropped him and the reasons they have stated?

These two being best is a safe bet. They have had S tier level tournament results unlike Inkling, what would you say is the cause of that? Would it the skill cap? The risk?

We are not sure about domination because no character is really dominating. However, Wario is seeing a lot of trend and I myself am curious how he performs this week.

Are there any videos of good desync shenanigans by chance?

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

What overrates him? Are there any notable players that have dropped him and the reasons they have stated?

These two being best is a safe bet. They have had S tier level tournament results unlike Inkling, what would you say is the cause of that? Would it the skill cap? The risk?

We are not sure about domination because no character is really dominating. However, Wario is seeing a lot of trend and I myself am curious how he performs this week.

Are there any videos of good desync shenanigans by chance?

Anyone that considers m2 high tier is over rating him. Look for a sm4sh mewtwo and see if they're playing him in ultimate. That speaks more to me than people claiming he's high tier.

I don't believe what we've seen over the weekend was an outlier for Wario. It's going to be difficult to keep him in check. I expect to see more stuff like this from Wario. I think sm4sh warped a lotbof people's perception of Wario that game didn't really do him justice. What does Wario struggle against? Who can take advantage of his weaknesses easily?

Snake is doing well early because of people getting their hands back on snake outside of maybe olimar he has some of the best representation. Chrom is strong because of how easy to use he is and his derp. Inkling people should probably start to reconsider if she's the best. I feel like she's really strong but the lack of results at anything is pretty alarming.

I saw something a couple of weeks ago but haven't paid too much attention to it. I know there's probably some icies players cooking up something.

Edit: theirs a video on the previous page showing some decent ice climber player. Looks like a pretty good look at a potentially dangerous character.

 

[BunbUn129]

What Mewtwo is going through is quite similar to what top-tiers in S4 went through after being nerfed. I remember how the consensus was Sheik, Diddy, and Bayonetta were no longer top-tiers after their respective nerfs, and how things turned out for them in the end. And in all those cases their nerfs were far more substantial than what happened to Mewtwo in this transition. Are you really being so fatalistic because d tilt, nair, and fair--all amazing moves--got slight ending lag nerfs? Are you forgetting that you can do d tilt right out of a dash now? Or does the fact that his mains dropped him make him definitively bad?

Reminder that character usage and viability do not always correlate. Eg. Jigglypuff in Melee, Rosalina in S4. It's possible for a character to be viable but their playstyle could be so unappealing at the same time. Sheik, Meta Knight, and ZSS are all in that awkward position now; their kits are more robust and well-rounded in ultimate but their winning buttons got toned down. Their playstyles are no longer "highlight reel fodder" so they get written off by viewers. Mewtwo is likely in the same boat.

Edit: in the case of the reverse, Wolf is an example, and newcomers tend to go through a phase of high usage in the early meta. Wolf's usage and results are among the best at the current time but I expect that in time, after the novelty of his return wears off, his usage will drop to be more in line with his actual viability. The same will most likely occur with the Belmonts.

 

[Mister M]

Are there any videos of good desync shenanigans by chance

20 min mark

 

[NotLiquid]

Snake is doing well early because of people getting their hands back on snake outside of maybe olimar he has some of the best representation. Chrom is strong because of how easy to use he is and his derp. Inkling people should probably start to reconsider if she's the best. I feel like she's really strong but the lack of results at anything is pretty alarming.

It took a good year before Bayonetta started to consistently take majors in Smash 4. "How can Bayonetta be the best if she hasn't won a major" was a meme the character went through until Salem finally cinched EVO 2017. Ultimate hasn't even been out for a whole month. I don't believe Inklings are the number one character right now - too many factors such as struggling with kills make that hard to gauge - but saying early results are "alarming" (despite the fact that multiple tournaments had Inkling in top 8) is laughably premature.

Chrom gets violently outjanked, I don't believe he's even the best swordie. Snake though, despite what Leffen will say, I can believe being up there. He easily has the tools to be a top 5 contender.

 

[FishkeeperTimmay!]

These two being best is a safe bet. They have had S tier level tournament results unlike Inkling, what would you say is the cause of that? Would it the skill cap? The risk?

I think a lot of tournament players are avoiding Inkling because they feel she will be nerfed. Inkling is very popular online, regardless of her tournament placements. She likely has a lot of complaints being levied against her. The issue for an aspiring pro is that Inkling is unique and thus doesn't have a character that you can easily transfer your practice into. So top players are avoiding her because of the risk.

Snake is also unique, but I don't think that the nerf stick would hit him as hard. The online presence isn't as strong. He is not as straightforward to play, so he isn't as popular. Also, his 'problem attacks"; Nikita and U-tilt, can be tuned down and still be useful. So there isn't as much risk there. I think he places well because neither Melee nor Smash 4 players are used to dealing with his special kind of shenanigans. Unless you were involved in the Brawl scene, Snake is a new playstyle that will take some time to adapt to.

Chrom is going to place well because swordies are just good in this engine. Moreover, swordies emphasize fundamentals, so experienced players can quickly use them at a high level. Chrom just happens to be the one with the most straightforward and powerful options, so players flocked to him. There isn't much risk in playing him either; you can pick up another swordie and transfer a lot of those fundamental skills. If you can play Chrom well, than you can probably play Marth, Lucina, Ike and Roy well. Especially Lucina and Ike. So even if Chrom gets hit with the nerf bat, you are not exposed to as much risk.

Cloud has been great so far. I got him to elite smash with him and it’s been fun and he feels powerful. Ininitially, I thought he would feel weak due to the substantial nerf he received since ssb4. And they are. I mainly feel his aerial game is what I really feel sad about. However, he still feels REALLY strong. I do wish his range on some of his attacks would be bigger though. What are your thoughts? I’d appreciate some discussion in cloud since most of you guys are probably much better than I am as a player and in analyzing characters.

Zero seems to be picking him up, so that is probably a good endorsement. Watch his stream if you want an idea of how to play effectively. I think the power gap between characters is smaller in this game, so even if Cloud isn't as good as say... Chrom, he is still viable.

Even with the nerfs, he still has good hitboxes, decent frame data, multiple dunks and a projectile. He still has a good juggle game and can be really effective offstage, although it is risky for him. He can't be as oppressive as the FE cast, but he has some tools when playing patiently, giving him some range in play. His Limit allows him to have bursts of power that you can play around, though the changes to Limit are restrictive; you have to play aggressively to take advantage of it. The hardest thing about Cloud will be knowing when to play patiently vs aggressively. Cloud feels like a glass cannon, so you need to be aware of when you need to be a cannon and when you need to play like you are made of glass.

 

[Rizen]

Chrom gets violently outjanked, I don't believe he's even the best swordie.

By who?

Zero seems to be picking him up, so that is probably a good endorsement. Watch his stream if you want an idea of how to play effectively. I think the power gap between characters is smaller in this game, so even if Cloud isn't as good as say... Chrom, he is still viable.

Even with the nerfs, he still has good hitboxes, decent frame data, multiple dunks and a projectile. He still has a good juggle game and can be really effective offstage, although it is risky for him. He can't be as oppressive as the FE cast, but he has some tools when playing patiently, giving him some range in play. His Limit allows him to have bursts of power that you can play around, though the changes to Limit are restrictive; you have to play aggressively to take advantage of it. The hardest thing about Cloud will be knowing when to play patiently vs aggressively. Cloud feels like a glass cannon, so you need to be aware of when you need to be a cannon and when you need to play like you are made of glass.

Does ZeRo enter tournaments (or just make youtube videos all day)? I agree Cloud is still really good, despite Limit nerfs.

Speaking of Cloud and Ness:

 

[NotLiquid]

By who?

By anyone with a decent off-stage or ledge game. Like Pichu he's a character of extremes; explosive advantage yet way too many fundamental inconsistencies that someone like "best" character wouldn't want to have. Characters like those being favored early on isn't all that surprising to be honest. Ultimately I feel like Lucina is going to remain the better FE swordie.

 

[Augi]

I'd really like to hear more about Wario. The minimal chatter above has me intrigued as this is a character I've never quite understood what his advantages in the meta would be.

Chrom yadda yadda, top pick, etc. I personally don't think he's invincible, but I'm not experienced enough in top level play to intricately break down another character that can take him to the cleaners. Just call it a gut feeling. He'll always be good, but he'll get taken down a peg eventually.

Even with the nerfs, he's still strong, as has been said. He just feels like a more balanced fight rather than an a wall of "You can't touch me". He's also just balanced in general with a good range option and of course the giant sword and good killing options. Though I feel like he crumbles once you get him offstage, though I've seen many a fight where people who jump off to gimp him get swatted by a suicidal Up B. I'll prolly explore him more in the coming days.

There was so much explosive talk about how great Olimar was going to be and how top tier he was because of the changes, but I feel like it just fizzled out? I never see anyone talk about him anymore and I don't think I've ever fought him online. What happened to the guy? Is he just outclassed by the rush of players in the FE cast?

... he's waiting ... and boy do I feel like some major shake-ups are in store when he drops.

 

[FishkeeperTimmay!]

By who?

Does ZeRo enter tournaments (or just make youtube videos all day)? I agree Cloud is still really good, despite Limit nerfs.

Apparently he is going to Smash Con (correct me if I'm wrong), so he will be a tournament player soon. He mentioned that he wants to use Diddy and Cloud yesterday, but I could see Zero's whimsy taking him another direction closer to the date. The guy is in a weird place right now; the streaming money is good, but I think he misses the competition of tournament play. I think he will try to be a hybrid steamer/tourney goer like Mango.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

It took a good year before Bayonetta started to consistently take majors in Smash 4. "How can Bayonetta be the best if she hasn't won a major" was a meme the character went through until Salem finally cinched EVO 2017. Ultimate hasn't even been out for a whole month. I don't believe Inklings are the number one character right now - too many factors such as struggling with kills make that hard to gauge - but saying early results are "alarming" (despite the fact that multiple tournaments had Inkling in top 8) is laughably premature.

Chrom gets violently outjanked, I don't believe he's even the best swordie. Snake though, despite what Leffen will say, I can believe being up there. He easily has the tools to be a top 5 contender.

I don't believe bayo is really a fair comparison. We all knew bayo was a walking ToD. It just took players a while to get there. If you ask me who'd I rather have as an over saturated top tier the answer is inkling and it's not even close. It's funny but if you would've asked me a month ago I would've said inkling is the best. I still think she's an amazing character but I need to see a lot more from her.

Augi His biggest advantages are waft and his aerial mobility. Waft makes him take stocks extremely early and you can combo into it. So he created pressure by using time to build his waft and when he has a stock lead waft can blow open the game. His aerial mobility allows him to weave in and out and be very hard to deal with. Also nair is pretty ridiculous uair is good and so are utilt. He's also pretty heavy so he's harder to kill. Also has pretty strong options for edge guarding.

Wario is back bois and there's no grab release to **** him over in this game and the FE looking mad suspect.

 

[NotLiquid]

I don't believe bayo is really a fair comparison. We all knew bayo was a walking ToD. It just took players a while to get there. If you ask me who'd I rather have as an over saturated top tier the answer is inkling and it's not even close. It's funny but if you would've asked me a month ago I would've said inkling is the best. I still think she's an amazing character but I need to see a lot more from her.

It's more of a fair comparison than to say first month tournament results are "alarming", especially when characters like Inkling take long to fully optimize. The means in which they push advantage is a whole different ball game and there's no real free confirms or combos off of most of their attacks.

I'd really like to hear more about Wario. The minimal chatter above has me intrigued as this is a character I've never quite understood what his advantages in the meta would be.

Wario experienced massive power creep in Smash 4 which compounded on his inadequate range and lack of KO options. Now most of his meddlesome matchups got nerfed, his aerial game is still aces, bike can be used to edgeguard, stuff actually confirms into stuff, and overall he's just one of the most notable characters to benefit from simple indirect changes to the engine.

 

[Gérard Majax]

More random character thoughts :

: Pretty close to a functional character (which is a huge step up from 4 lol). Frame 3 jumpsquat + improved aerials = a pretty scary character in advantage, canonball is actually useful now (it falls down after a distance which can be deadly offstage, and beats most projectiles). Grab and jab were both garbage in smash 4, but now jab connects properly (except sometimes at low%) and kills at reasonable % (120 at the ledge). Grab is still slower than average, but he now gets pretty good reward from it. Uthrow -> uair -> uair -> bair deals like 50 at low %, dthrow sends horizontaly and can set up for some pretty neat edgegards, bthrow kills at 130. His low% damage output is nut in general, with clown kart, uthrow and utilt all setting up for uair strings.

Also the whole "kart multiplier has priority over the koopaling multiplier" thing, which means he takes reduced damages (20% less) on most attacks. Seriously, this **** is probably the strongest passive in the game.

Main issues I've found out while playing him would be his exploitable vertical recovery (although the improved airdodge when out of the mech gives him some mixup potential + clown kart is a good horizontal recovery), and a difficulty against smaller characters when you can't just nair oos your troubles away. He also benefits heavily from mu inexperience (mechakoopa and clown kart can both be played around), so I'm unsure about his future in the metagame. But if he happens to be low tier in this game, that's pretty good news for this game as a whole, because he isn't that bad this time.

: How the hell is he a contender for the worst heavy in the game rofl, this guy is insane. Fireballs are great offstage and as a camping tool if you feel like it (they are hard to reflect because they collide with each others, and beat most projectiles), nair controls so much space it's ridiculous, his recovery is above average with 3 jumps, side b and the ability to angle up b in 4 directions (pro tip : use your third jump to turn around in the air then up b in the opposite direction, you will go slightly up instead of slightly down.)

Killing power is good enough thanks to usmash, side b (command grabs are so good against platform camping), ftilt, bair, uair and dthrow coupled to his ridiculous damage output. His offstage game in particular is superb : fireballs force the opponent to be meticulous about their recovery, then you can just drop down and nair the **** out of them. Or bair as they grab the ledge. Also dair can actually be used as an edgegarding tool (you have just enough recovery with your jumps and up b to compensate for the dair if you do it correctly), which can be close to impossible to deal with for an opponent recovering low (it's like the smash version of worm's concrete donkey).

Also he is ridiculously fast for a heavy. Run speed is 2.2 tied for 9th, which is faster than inkling and chrom lol.

His main weakness is that he is completely combo food (although any fraudulent combo will be met with a nair in the face). Also he kind of has a blind spot above ground right in front of him, as ftilt/dtilt only hit the ground, and nair can be played around if your opponent expects it. It's more apparent against smaller characters. Fast projectiles can also be a pain to deal with because fireballs are too slow (screw wolf lazers).

Upper mid tier or high tier imo, guy is way too scary.

 

[Scarlet Spyder]

Greninja has all the tools to be a solid fighter. I’ll post later for a more detailed analysis.

 

[bc1910]

There was so much explosive talk about how great Olimar was going to be and how top tier he was because of the changes, but I feel like it just fizzled out? I never see anyone talk about him anymore and I don't think I've ever fought him online. What happened to the guy? Is he just outclassed by the rush of players in the FE cast?

Olimar has been seeing amazing results from Dabuz and Shuton in Japan.

He’s never been a “sexy” character and that’s truer than ever in a world of fast swordies and combo monster top tiers. Unless he turns out to be this game’s Bayo or something I don’t see his popularity spiking, but he’s still undeniably top tier right now.

 

[Augi]

Olimar has been seeing amazing results from Dabuz and Shuton in Japan.

He’s never been a “sexy” character and that’s truer than ever in a world of fast swordies and combo monster top tiers. Unless he turns out to be this game’s Bayo or something I don’t see his popularity spiking, but he’s still undeniably top tier right now.

Good to hear that it wasn't false hype. May revisit him myself with more seriousness this time... hes up my alley. Unpopular/Unconventional underdog, but can actually do well. Olimar may not be sexy, but my boy Alph...! Alph ftw.

(I also think its funny that Olimar/Alph are still the only two characters chosen by outfit change rather than being an echo...)

 

[FishkeeperTimmay!]

More random character thoughts :

: How the hell is he a contender for the worst heavy in the game rofl, this guy is insane. Fireballs are great offstage and as a camping tool if you feel like it (they are hard to reflect because they collide with each others, and beat most projectiles), nair controls so much space it's ridiculous, his recovery is above average with 3 jumps, side b and the ability to angle up b in 4 directions (pro tip : use your third jump to turn around in the air then up b in the opposite direction, you will go slightly up instead of slightly down.)

Killing power is good enough thanks to usmash, side b (command grabs are so good against platform camping), ftilt, bair, uair and dthrow coupled to his ridiculous damage output. His offstage game in particular is superb : fireballs force the opponent to be meticulous about their recovery, then you can just drop down and nair the **** out of them. Or bair as they grab the ledge. Also dair can actually be used as an edgegarding tool (you have just enough recovery with your jumps and up b to compensate for the dair if you do it correctly), which can be close to impossible to deal with for an opponent recovering low (it's like the smash version of worm's concrete donkey).

Also he is ridiculously fast for a heavy. Run speed is 2.2 tied for 9th, which is faster than inkling and chrom lol.

His main weakness is that he is completely combo food (although any fraudulent combo will be met with a nair in the face). Also he kind of has a blind spot above ground right in front of him, as ftilt/dtilt only hit the ground, and nair can be played around if your opponent expects it. It's more apparent against smaller characters. Fast projectiles can also be a pain to deal with because fireballs are too slow (screw wolf lazers).

Upper mid tier or high tier imo, guy is way too scary.

Keep in mind that when I play against Ridley, I generally play Palu against him, so maybe I have a matchup bias.

I think he is poorly rated because his options are usually easy to predict. Yes, he hurts when he hits you, but he needs to hit you first. His run speed is only threatening if he can do something with it, which I think he struggles with. He can't camp well against practically any character with a projectile, since his is slow and has a very predictable path. Its only really threatening if you can charge it, which feeds into the "slow" problem.

So he is often forced to approach, which forces him into a narrow range of options. Thankfully, he has a command grab to punish shielding too much, but I find I am shielding a lot less in this game in general now that shield grabs are not as good. Many characters can stuff an approach with a good tilt or retreating aerial. Having swordies be so common really emphasizes this weakness. That "blindspot" is a good way to describe his issue; he can't challenge air play with tilts, which makes his dash less threatening.

I do agree that his offstage options are nasty. More players need to be willing to get off the ledge with most characters! Ridley is a good example of what can be done if you play a little more risky.

BTW, I put DDD as the worst heavy. The Gordos are not nearly as threatening offline. Though DDD's tilt game is nasty with the new dash mechanics.

 

[Tri Knight]

BTW, I put DDD as the worst heavy. The Gordos are not nearly as threatening offline. Though DDD's tilt game is nasty with the new dash mechanics.

Gordos aren't threatening online either imo. To easy use them against him. I think it's one of the worst projectiles in the game.

 

[Iridium]

As for my thoughts (a few) on Greninja:

Obviously, footstool combos were not all he had going for him, and he still does decently in tourneys so far.

D-tilt combos into u-air more easily (at least at later %s), and with jab being able to jab lock, it is a fair replacement for what could have been a footstool. The % range might be more tight, although I might need to test that.

Ledge-cancelled Hydro Pump maybe might be really useful as a retreating option or mixup tool for movement. Either way, I would love to see how this gets utilized later on.

Water Shuriken still appears to be very safe, owing to far range that makes for an easier time stopping approaches and keeping space.

Faster aerials are always a plus, also given Greninja's slightly faster jumpsquat. I would expect even more n-airs in neutral, which still leads into follow-ups like n-air to f-air.

Lighter weight does hinder his survivability, but also makes it harder to combo him. D-tilt having a bit more knockback, from what I've watched, could cause confirms out of it to be just a bit more strict. Aside from that, his excellent mobility may help in specific MUs, but don't take this last point seriously the most.

I might be missing important information, so I would like anything else noticed about him. Watching Lea and Venia got me thinking a few things, and I do think he is quite better.

 

[Luigifan18]

Olimar has been seeing amazing results from Dabuz and Shuton in Japan.

He’s never been a “sexy” character and that’s truer than ever in a world of fast swordies and combo monster top tiers. Unless he turns out to be this game’s Bayo or something I don’t see his popularity spiking, but he’s still undeniably top tier right now.

There's also the issue of Olimar having an intimidatingly steep learning curve. Seriously, micromanagement and fast-paced action don't mix well.

 

[Ziodyne 21]

What are peoples opinions on now. Since it got a lot of overall buffs and shows promise. His spacing abilites have been improved with his buffed n-air His buffed side-b is now pretty freaking ridiculous and can possibly comboed into a kill confirm off neutral-air or gyro near the edge. His grab game is still good, He can still combo well of his up-throw at lower precents and the new bury properties of down-throw may not be the most reliable kill set up at high damage, but it can also lead tor 50/50 situations with the right predictions But yeah his big weakness and what holds the bot back a bit is still his very bad disadvantage state, not quite as bad it was in Smash4, but still bad, and you need to be on-point offstage with rob and guess how and when the opponent is going to edgeguard you since his recovery is as slow and telegraphed as ever. Wadi R.O.B is looking pretty good, I think the bot could be a potential high-tier.

The is a vid of what Wadi can do with the robot

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nhmjpxnla9A&t=291s

 

[Rizen]

: How the hell is he a contender for the worst heavy in the game rofl, this guy is insane. Fireballs are great offstage and as a camping tool if you feel like it (they are hard to reflect because they collide with each others, and beat most projectiles), nair controls so much space it's ridiculous, his recovery is above average with 3 jumps, side b and the ability to angle up b in 4 directions (pro tip : use your third jump to turn around in the air then up b in the opposite direction, you will go slightly up instead of slightly down.)

Killing power is good enough thanks to usmash, side b (command grabs are so good against platform camping), ftilt, bair, uair and dthrow coupled to his ridiculous damage output. His offstage game in particular is superb : fireballs force the opponent to be meticulous about their recovery, then you can just drop down and nair the **** out of them. Or bair as they grab the ledge. Also dair can actually be used as an edgegarding tool (you have just enough recovery with your jumps and up b to compensate for the dair if you do it correctly), which can be close to impossible to deal with for an opponent recovering low (it's like the smash version of worm's concrete donkey).

Also he is ridiculously fast for a heavy. Run speed is 2.2 tied for 9th, which is faster than inkling and chrom lol.

His main weakness is that he is completely combo food (although any fraudulent combo will be met with a nair in the face). Also he kind of has a blind spot above ground right in front of him, as ftilt/dtilt only hit the ground, and nair can be played around if your opponent expects it. It's more apparent against smaller characters. Fast projectiles can also be a pain to deal with because fireballs are too slow (screw wolf lazers).

Upper mid tier or high tier imo, guy is way too scary.

I don't think Ridley's the worst heavy; technically he's not even a super heavy weighing only 107 which is less than Samus. He has good traits like a f4 jab, decent frame data and a scary offstage game. But like Fishkeeper said, he lacks options. Ridley has the same problem as Link: good reach but his attacks don't arc, like Marcina's, so he ends up with blindspots. He doesn't have a good answer against projectile spam either. Like you mentioned his disadvantage state is really bad.

The worst heavy, imo, is either DDD or Ganon. Ganon's fastest ground move is f7 jab, air is f8 Uair (which got nerfed). His recovery is terrible so he dies at 40% from offstage chains and his mobility, although buffed, is still really bad. DDD's airspeed is literally the worst in the game. His fastest moves are f6 Dtilt and f7 Nair. DDD can actually recover, unlike Ganon but doesn't have his explosive punishes. Neither have relevant armor. I do admit DDD is getting results so maybe he has something going for him *shrug*.

 

[MangoPeachey]

It took a good year before Bayonetta started to consistently take majors in Smash 4. "How can Bayonetta be the best if she hasn't won a major" was a meme the character went through until Salem finally cinched EVO 2017. Ultimate hasn't even been out for a whole month. I don't believe Inklings are the number one character right now - too many factors such as struggling with kills make that hard to gauge - but saying early results are "alarming" (despite the fact that multiple tournaments had Inkling in top 8) is laughably premature.

Chrom gets violently outjanked, I don't believe he's even the best swordie. Snake though, despite what Leffen will say, I can believe being up there. He easily has the tools to be a top 5 contender.

How on Earth does Inkling struggle to kill?

 

[Minordeth]

Keep in mind that when I play against Ridley, I generally play Palu against him, so maybe I have a matchup bias.

I think he is poorly rated because his options are usually easy to predict. Yes, he hurts when he hits you, but he needs to hit you first. His run speed is only threatening if he can do something with it, which I think he struggles with. He can't camp well against practically any character with a projectile, since his is slow and has a very predictable path. Its only really threatening if you can charge it, which feeds into the "slow" problem.

So he is often forced to approach, which forces him into a narrow range of options. Thankfully, he has a command grab to punish shielding too much, but I find I am shielding a lot less in this game in general now that shield grabs are not as good. Many characters can stuff an approach with a good tilt or retreating aerial. Having swordies be so common really emphasizes this weakness. That "blindspot" is a good way to describe his issue; he can't challenge air play with tilts, which makes his dash less threatening.

Ridley, uh... Ridley murders air approaches, tho. His Utilt and Usmash have generous intangibility. Dash > Reverse Utilt is a quick way to wreck a FH anything.

Usmash is fast and has a sweeping arc that starts from behind Ridley, so it murders cross up aerials and straight up beats stuff like Cloud’s Dair. Ridley’s Fair can outrange various swordies. He can threaten with an extremely hard to punish Dtilt, which combos and pokes, or a command grab. Or a single shot fireball which leads to grab.

His roll canceled dash grab is one of the longest in the game, and he has a short initial dash, which can break ankles, man.

I think once you get oppressed by one, you’ll see he’s not really limited at all. It’s a blessing his hurtbox is huge and his weight is relatively light, tbh.

Oh, and Nair eats projectiles. Like all of Young Link’s projectiles, for instance.

 

[Rizen]

Oh, and Nair eats projectiles. Like all of Young Link’s projectiles, for instance.

The hitbox seems to be on his feet and does but it's not a good answer vs projectiles. Most of Ridley is exposed and the hitbox spins so most of the time projectiles will hit his vulnerable hurtbox.

 

[FishkeeperTimmay!]

There's also the issue of Olimar having an intimidatingly steep learning curve. Seriously, micromanagement and fast-paced action don't mix well.

Steep learning curve characters always get the shaft. Icies, Shulk and Olimar are unlikely to have many champions for them for some time. I toyed with Shulk in the first week because I loved Xenoblade, but damn man, I ended up playing like a swordie 90% of the time. I wasn't capitalizing on Jump to recover, or Speed to extend combos, or Smash to get kills on your average chain. Olimar's pikmin likely have the same issue; rotating those buggers optimally while trying to do your normal game takes a lot of focus. Dabuz is the only player I know of who handles it well.

What are peoples opinions on now.

Man, my ROB games are always so back and forth. I get a really nice chain then BAM, he reverses the situation with a well placed projectile or Nair and all of sudden I'm offstage praying he doesn't interrupt my Warp with a dunk or Nair. That recovery of his does wonders when he is offstage offensively.

Ridley, uh... Ridley murders air approaches, tho.

But how does he force you to approach in any non-lead situation? Sure, he has great tools to punish you for doing it, but that fireball isn't going to force me to come at him unless I have no projectiles of my own.

Or maybe I am the victim of only playing average Ridleys?

 

[Phosphophyllite]

As it's been mentioned, isn't even considered a "Heavy" in the same sense of , not even just that he's not in their weight class, but his playstyle is nothing like theirs at all. His closest comparison is Charizard, but again the playstyles are totally different. He doesn't have the raw power to make you scared to press buttons, nor does he have the survivability to make him a constant threat. The only thing they have in common is the size, which is even worse for Ridley since as it's mentioned, worse survivability yet is still combo food like other heavies makes for a bad disadvantage state.

Generally, I think this whole discussion of "Who's the worst heavy" isn't very productive, since everyone's just going to gravitate to because slow movement and bad frame data isn't exactly the makings of a character who is popular with the larger competitive community. Especially in Ultimate where it's already been shown that the match ups aren't as binary as they were in previous smash games. There's going to be match ups where struggle due to being easily gimped or edgeguarded where can excell since he can just kinda hang around off stage and easily make it back most of the time, as well as cases where is going to suffer when a character can easily deal with his projectile game, but that character is going to have a hard time with with his long range normals and being able to apply tons of shield pressure. All this "Worst heavy" discussion is just going to foster negative sentiment far too early in the game's life, especially when we've barely seen what a newly buffed can do in a game where a lot of their worst match ups in Smash 4 are completely gone now.

 

[Lavani]

Just gonna drop the grand finals from last night's Shockwave here, hype set and a good showing of both and :

PSI Magnet goes far in this matchup, and the mindgames from both players as a result of that was rather fascinating to watch. I particularly enjoyed the nikita interactions.

 

[Gleam]

As far as goes, he's got mobility, combos and an arguably BS edgeguarding projectile that makes him a force to be reckoned. The whole idea of Ridley being bad has kind of just died out now. Most now seem to recognize Ridley as a decent, if not good character who happens to have some notable flaws. He's got plenty of tournament rankings including a few 1st places. In fact the last time I checked Ridley had gotten 25 tournament placements, of which 18 were int he top 10 and around 3 got 1st place.

Of course one of the reasons I think Ridley can do so well, other than actually have a decent enough moveset, is that he excels at the arguably most important thing in the game, edgeguarding and offstage gameplay. This means Ridley can even out odds that other characters might not. If you're recovery isn't good enough, or you don't have what it takes to deal with Ridley's F-airs and even more broken N-airs. It's easy enough to take a stock from 40-80% with two good off stage Fairs...which mind you is a true combo for Ridley.

You can face people like Chrom, Roy and Lucina and get your rear end kicked in neutral and yet the moment you take them off stage, the roles are reversed and you can take them out with one good aerial. That or if you're feeling like an a**hole, just stand back and lob fireballs and 1/5 times, you'll take a stock by sheer gimp. Having an advantage of any kind when facing off against arguably high or even top tier characters, is a very good thing to have.

It's also surprisingly difficult to edgeguard or gimp Ridley. You'd be surprised at how good distance-wise his recovery is. This guy's got 3 jumps, a Side-B and an Up-B and can recover from the blast zone to the stage easily. Add in having a damn strong Up-B strength wise that beats most attacks and a lot of characters aren't going to take the risk of going down in the depths of Norfair with him unless they can actually back it up.

I can't reasonably put Ridley at high tier because I feel his notable flaws unfortunately counteract his positives enough to keep him from there. But I'd definitely put him in Mid Tier and if his tournament results continue, High Mid Tier.

And just imagine how frightening it would be if Ridley was the worst heavy. Here's this guy with all these tools, techs and combos that can make high tier character's think twice and he's apparently the worst. God forbid, what happens when a better heavy comes out? Does Bowser just down-thrown opponents through the opposite end of the stage and win?