• Welcome to Smashboards, the world's largest Super Smash Brothers community! Over 250,000 Smash Bros. fans from around the world have come to discuss these great games in over 19 million posts!

    You are currently viewing our boards as a visitor. Click here to sign up right now and start on your path in the Smash community!

Official Competitive Character Impressions 2.0

?


  • Total voters
    584

VodkaHaze

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jun 5, 2009
Messages
400
NNID
VodkaHaze58
I probably should have mentioned that I am mostly an online player for the time being (although that should be changing soon) so input lag might still be painting my impressions. My Squirtle also needs some work so I'm probably a bit biased against Squirt favored match ups as well.

That said, while I do think PT by nature doesn't have a lot of extreme weaknesses simply by the nature of the character. That said, I don't think they utterly dominate in a lot of matches either. I don't think that many characters really lose too hard against PT since there's always some weak link they can take advantage of, and while the team covers uo each other's weaknesses they don't nulify them, and each of the three have some big weaknesses.
Pokemon Trainer :ultpokemontrainer: definitely seems like a character that's hard to master because you have to get good with three characters as well as know when to switch between them. I can imagine good PTs being forces of nature, but regardless of where PT is on the tier list, they have a higher learning curve than most other characters. I would even argue that some characters the community considers top tier right now like Lucina :ultlucina: and Wolf :ultwolf: are easier to master than PT.
 

Emblem Lord

The Legendary Lord
Joined
Aug 11, 2005
Messages
9,720
Location
Scotch Plains, NJ
NNID
ShinEmblemLord
3DS FC
3926-6895-0574
Switch FC
SW-0793-4091-6136
Haha.

As if Lucina and Wolf being easy is up for debate.

This thread is comedy.
 

Rizen

Smash Legend
Joined
May 7, 2009
Messages
14,902
Location
Colorado
I played Wolf in friendlies and he's very easy to pick up and fundamental people to death with.
 

Minordeth

Smash Ace
Joined
Oct 14, 2014
Messages
921
Coincidentally, Zero will be maining Wolf and Lucina. Almost as if he read EL’s post.
 

Ziodyne 21

Smash Lord
Joined
Apr 11, 2016
Messages
1,681
Coincidentally, Zero will be maining Wolf and Lucina. Almost as if he read EL’s post.

Well ZeRo basically said he has been maining Wolf for a while. Trying to be fair to ZeRo here, Wolf is the kind of character that fits his perferred style of play. That is a character that wins mostly by overwhelming and conditioning opponets though strong and consistent netutral play and gets great reward of that. . i.e Smash 4 Diddy


Also on that note, err has MKLeo decided to just main/co-main Wolf now as well?. He has been using him exclusively in everything he has participated in post-Genesis 6
 
Last edited:

Emblem Lord

The Legendary Lord
Joined
Aug 11, 2005
Messages
9,720
Location
Scotch Plains, NJ
NNID
ShinEmblemLord
3DS FC
3926-6895-0574
Switch FC
SW-0793-4091-6136
No lie, if the game does get what I think it needs in order to benefit more passive footsie based chars then I will probably be using Wolf too.

The inherent 4 frames of delay makes consistent whiff punishing an unattainable dream. (Street Fighter V before the patches is proof)

So the only way to stay in control is with easy oppressive options that don't take mental gymnastics. Now you can spend way more time thinking about how to limit your opponent and play for stage. Rather then frame perfect whiff punish that you have to fight the engine to get.
 
Last edited:

bc1910

Smash Lord
Joined
Dec 26, 2013
Messages
1,915
Location
London
NNID
bc1910
3DS FC
1478-6611-0182
Zero using easy characters is nothing new. As someone who makes his living off the game I don’t blame him for investing his time in characters who offer fast returns.

I don’t see Wolf making it through the entire life of the game with no nerfs though. I don’t think he’s overpowered (particularly by Smash top tier standards) but probably a little too dominant for the amount of work he requires. At the very least we can expect a nerf to Blaster’s damage.

No lie, if the game does get what I think it needs in order to benefit more passive footsie based chars then I will probably be using Wolf too.

The inherent 4 frames of delay makes consistent whiff punishing an unattainable dream. (Street Fighter V before the patches is proof)

So the only way to stay in control is with easy oppressive options that don't take mental gymnastics. Now you can spend way more time thinking about how to limit your opponent and play for stage. Rather then frame perfect whiff punish that you have to fight the engine to get.
Isn’t the inherent delay 6 frames in Ultimate?

I’m not well-versed enough in other fighters to comment on frame-perfect play, the only thing I’d point out is that frame-perfect play is pretty much impossible in any modern fighter between TV, controller and inherent lag.
 
Last edited:

Emblem Lord

The Legendary Lord
Joined
Aug 11, 2005
Messages
9,720
Location
Scotch Plains, NJ
NNID
ShinEmblemLord
3DS FC
3926-6895-0574
Switch FC
SW-0793-4091-6136
My bad. Ultimate is 8 frames total. 4 frames higher than most old school fighters. Yes, this includes melee.

I get what you are saying bc1910 bc1910

But if your game has that delay you BUILD around it. You don't create monstrous godlike sword characters with buttons that are near impossible to whiff punish AND lead to huge reward on hit AND the strongest of them are the easiest to do well with.

Jesus Chris on a bike, Cucktindo.
 

bc1910

Smash Lord
Joined
Dec 26, 2013
Messages
1,915
Location
London
NNID
bc1910
3DS FC
1478-6611-0182
My bad. Ultimate is 8 frames total. 4 frames higher than most old school fighters. Yes, this includes melee.

I get what you are saying bc1910 bc1910

But if your game has that delay you BUILD around it. You don't create monstrous godlike sword characters with buttons that are near impossible to whiff punish AND lead to huge reward on hit AND the strongest of them are the easiest to do well with.

Jesus Chris on a bike, Cucktindo.
Ah I see, you probably meant 4 extra frames. I didn’t realise Ultimate’s input lag was that bad, would you mind me asking where you got that info from? The video I watched put it at 6 frames (the same video put Melee at 4).

The delay really does hurt when trying to punish stuff like Ike’s Nair. I wonder if any of the lag is intended to mitigate online lag, similar to SFV before patches. On a good connection I find online feels similar to offline, which does feel a little laggy.
 

PURGE THEM LIKE THE

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Apr 18, 2016
Messages
99
For reference, splatoon 2 has more input delay than splatoon 1. It's probably a switch problem, not a smash one. I doubt it will ever be fixed. Also, how does adding extra delay mitigate online lag? You'd just feel extra the extra delay online.
 

bc1910

Smash Lord
Joined
Dec 26, 2013
Messages
1,915
Location
London
NNID
bc1910
3DS FC
1478-6611-0182
For reference, splatoon 2 has more input delay than splatoon 1. It's probably a switch problem, not a smash one. I doubt it will ever be fixed. Also, how does adding extra delay mitigate online lag? You'd just feel extra the extra delay online.
You can add artificial input lag and apply it to offline gameplay but not online. SFV now runs with around 4f input lag offline despite releasing with around 8f of input lag offline, with reports showing that online input lag has barely changed in the input lag “bug fix” patches. It’s widely theorised that artificial input lag was added to offline gameplay only, to make offline and online feel similar. I’m not sure if Capcom ever admitted this though.

If it’s console lag then there’s probably nothing that can be done short of hardware updates.
 

Emblem Lord

The Legendary Lord
Joined
Aug 11, 2005
Messages
9,720
Location
Scotch Plains, NJ
NNID
ShinEmblemLord
3DS FC
3926-6895-0574
Switch FC
SW-0793-4091-6136
We will not even get into online play.

Nintendo remains two console generations behind.
 

MG_3989

Smash Lord
Joined
Jan 1, 2019
Messages
1,130
Location
New Jersey
Switch FC
SW-8397-3391-6411
We will not even get into online play.

Nintendo remains two console generations behind.
Yeah I feel if we start talking about online in this thread we’ll never stop

That said let’s just wait and see how the next few majors and patches shake out. If Wolf, Ike, and Lucina win all of them then we have a problem. If not and characters like Pichu, Pikachu, Inkling, Ness, Olimar, Palutena, Fox, etc... stay in the mix and play win one or two I think we’re fine. Not to mention characters like Young Link and Greninja who I think are capable of winning majors and just haven’t had results yet
 
Last edited:

Emblem Lord

The Legendary Lord
Joined
Aug 11, 2005
Messages
9,720
Location
Scotch Plains, NJ
NNID
ShinEmblemLord
3DS FC
3926-6895-0574
Switch FC
SW-0793-4091-6136
Oh yeah my bad bc1910 bc1910 you are right it's about 6 frames.

Still not ideal when dealing with swords tho.

I think all sword chars should get a universal nerf to nairs and fairs. Extra 2 frames of recovery.

You all know I'm right.
 
Last edited:

MG_3989

Smash Lord
Joined
Jan 1, 2019
Messages
1,130
Location
New Jersey
Switch FC
SW-8397-3391-6411
Oh yeah my bad bc1910 bc1910 you are right it's about 6 frames.

Still not ideal when dealing with swords tho.

I think all sword chars should get a universal nerf to nairs and fairs, Extra 2 frames of recovery.

You all know I'm right.
Coming from someone who doesn’t play any sword characters nor has any interest in them I’m 100% cool with that
 

Rizen

Smash Legend
Joined
May 7, 2009
Messages
14,902
Location
Colorado
Let's talk about :ultwolf:. No one's going to argue with Wolf's results; he's got tons of placings. He obviously can win tournaments. But how good is he? The real question comes down to is he that good or simply very popular because he's easy to play? In my last tournament there were 3 different Wolf I faced and maybe more. The one who beat me got 4th. But the other 2 didn't place at all. What does that say? It would be helpful if we could see every offline tournament's complete entrees' character selection for winning %s.

This calls back to the human element of character popularity mixed with simple probability. More Wolfs means more chances of winning. Of course there's the element of how a character needs to be good enough to beat the other characters too. Still, having more reps puts popular characters at an unfair advantage over say Shulk or Greninja.

This brings us back to the question: how good is Wolf? The best answer is to look at his MUs supported by tournament data. The only thing I know is he goes even with YL, imo. So how does your character do in the Wolf MU; let's get some discussion about that...
 
Last edited:

MG_3989

Smash Lord
Joined
Jan 1, 2019
Messages
1,130
Location
New Jersey
Switch FC
SW-8397-3391-6411
Let's talk about :ultwolf:. No one's going to argue with Wolf's results; he's got tons of placings. He obviously can win tournaments. But how good is he? The real question comes down to is he that good or simply very popular because he's easy to play? In my last tournament there were 3 different Wolf I faced and maybe more. The one who beat me got 4th. But the other 2 didn't place at all. What does that say? It would be helpful if we could see every offline tournament's complete entrees' character selection for winning %s.

This calls back to the human element of character popularity mixed with simple probability. More Wolfs means more chances of winning. Of course there's the element of how a character needs to be good enough to beat the other characters too. Still, having more reps puts popular characters at an unfair advantage over say Shulk or Greninja.

This brings us back to the question: how good is Wolf? The best answer is to look at his MUs supported by tournament data. The only thing I know is he goes even with YL, imo. So how does your character do in the Wolf MU; let's get some discussion about that...
Ness goes even with Wolf I think although some Wolf mains will tell you Ness beats Wolf. He can’t make Ness approach and Ness can’t make him approach but PSI Magnet is much more effective at stopping blaster than reflector is at stopping PK Fire and PK Thunder. Wolf is one of the few character who’s even in Ness’s vicinity in the air and either they go even there or Ness slightly beats him out. Ness can gimp him and edgeguard him quite easily with yo-yo and PK Thunder and maybe even PK Fire and Fair sometimes but Wolf can also go out deep enough to gimp Ness and but it’s very risky and use blaster but Ness can stall that with PSI Magnet and it’s usually not an issue, so I’d say Ness wins the edgeguarding.
They both rack up damage on each other and they both have big strings and combos so I’d say that’s about even. I think what gives Ness maybe a slight edge is he has an easier time killing than Wolf. Wolf has better tilts but Ness probably has better Smashes overall

Honestly I think they go even and it’s a skill based matchup. Some people will say Ness wins the matchup but a good Wolf is still difficult for Ness. Even if Ness slightly wins it it would only be very slightly

I actually think they’re somewhat similar characters. Both have top five air games, both have exploitable recoveries. Both are capable of big combos and strings and doing a lot of damage fast. Both force their opponent to approach. Both can zone but would rather rush their opponent down in aerial strings. Ness just kills a little easier and can go far deeper off stage with better edgeguarding. When it comes down to it they’re both dangerous all arounders with a somewhat similar game plan. That’s going off topic though, I think they go even or Ness wins by .5 but in my experience it’s a skill based matchup
 
Last edited:

PK Gaming

Smash Lord
Joined
Aug 25, 2012
Messages
1,315
Location
Canada
I think all sword chars should get a universal nerf to nairs and fairs. Extra 2 frames of recovery.
Cucktindo? This post? What are you even on right now, this isn't your usual style.

And real talk, the sword character complaints are getting old. I don't think tournament data supports the assertion that they're oppressive.
 
Last edited:

Melonsismyusername

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Feb 14, 2019
Messages
153
I think all sword chars should get a universal nerf to nairs and fairs. Extra 2 frames of recovery.-salty ass kid

wolf feels fine personally, he isn't op you just have to approach correctly and adapt to his blaster, his recovery is so terrible though I just always gimp wolf players.
 
Last edited:

MG_3989

Smash Lord
Joined
Jan 1, 2019
Messages
1,130
Location
New Jersey
Switch FC
SW-8397-3391-6411
I think all sword chars should get a universal nerf to nairs and fairs. Extra 2 frames of recovery.-salty *** kid

wolf feels fine personally, he isn't op you just have to approach correctly and adapt to his blaster, his recovery is so terrible though I just always gimp wolf players.
I honestly have no problem with Wolf as Ness. I don’t have a giant problem with sword characters but it can be hard to get in on them especially Ike. I can still catch his landings with PK Fire though if he gets too nair happy
 

ZephyrZ

But.....DRAGONS
Joined
Nov 2, 2014
Messages
10,644
Location
Southern California
NNID
AbsolBlade
3DS FC
4210-4109-6434
Switch FC
SW-1754-5854-0794
Oh yeah my bad bc1910 bc1910 you are right it's about 6 frames.

Still not ideal when dealing with swords tho.

I think all sword chars should get a universal nerf to nairs and fairs. Extra 2 frames of recovery.

You all know I'm right.
Sometimes it seems like nerfs is all you talk about.

And hasn't Corrin been nerfed more then enough already?
 

Shaya

   「chase you」 
BRoomer
Joined
Jun 8, 2007
Messages
27,654
Location
/人◕‿‿◕人\ FABULOUS Max!
NNID
ShayaJP
Wolf is overtuned.
This is undeniable.
This does not make the character broken by itself, just obviously very good.

What pushes Wolf over the edge of reason is that the counter-play to a character like him is pushed aside by the stupendousness of one single move in his kit. Can you guess (or more like, do you know already) what it is before you reach the end of this post?

An apt comparison for Wolf would be to Ryu, and for good reason, he's the OG shoto(?) and people with traditional fighter backgrounds see the archetype being represented well by Wolf's kit.
Ryu has big attacks - pretty fast start ups for the most part, favourable animations for a lot of them (hurtbox shifting and all of that) that are mostly safe on block plus has a horizontal projectile that's meant to dictate neutral a bit. The other "Smash" similarities of obscene KO power, vulnerable recoveries and 'poor' mobility also are shared by the two.

So why is Wolf doing so much while Ryu has fallen into obscurity? (as in, one's seemingly top tier while the other is seemingly low tier)
Well, Wolf has a lot better aerial mobility for one - while Ryu can go nyooom in the air from a jump he can't weave, this is a big factor in neutral and disadvantage but this still can be played around and Wolf can still be taken advantage of (he still has a pretty bad disadvantage).
Blaster is also obviously doing a lot more than Hadouken, but again, neither of the two moves are game changing. Ryu probably would be very happy to have Wolf's blaster instead of Hadouken though (a 'body' covering hitbox that stops people jumping into him on hadouken reads would gooo verrrrrrrrrrrrry far for him).
Ryu's technical requirements should be noted too, but I won't go into that here.

But the main thing that Wolf has that Ryu doesn't, the thing that makes his neutral feel overbearing and allows him dominance of mid-range (should be obvious now) is his burst option of DASH ATTACK.
Why does a character who should be forcing you to approach with blaster and beats just about everyone in reach, power and safety in close range normals once you do get close also dictate and win in the area similar characters are weak in (not just Ryu, but fox/falco "lose" to being baited in mid range).

His dash attack has ridiculous distance traveled (is there a longer traveling dash attack in the game????), it is practically safe on block [it doesn't just cross over shield, it's basically rolling through them], it combos and then eventually it kills, while not the strongest KO option in his kit, for a dash attack it's monstrous.
It's the best dash attack in the game bar none, and by far ("revenge stacked incineroar though!!!" - Browny).

Have you ever noticed how Wolf can just stand there, that he never needs to really shield at all? He's the character who against practically everyone (Zero Suits an exception~ YAY) never has to go further in neutral than just waiting for a reactive button trigger.
I'm not saying that if you're just standing there in shield and he dash attacks it you can't punish, but if he reads/anticipates a commitment, then the risk vs the reward of him going for a dash attack is hilarious. You playing to avoid said dash attack sets him up to freely hit your commitment with his aerials, tilts or even his pretty safe smash attacks.
When attrition comes and you're both at 120% - he's got the half-stage wide KO option that cannot be reacted to nor barely can be punished, and he's constantly forcing you to be moving or acting amidst lasers, who should be winning between two evenly skilled players a hyper majority of the time?

While Wolf would still be obnoxious in many people's eyes if they neutered that move, he would most assuredly not be able dictate the game vs other mid-rangers like he does right now (it's what the "basic fundamentals goes so far with him" means). Destroying the move wouldn't be necessary - it either just needs to stop KOing, or reduce the distance it travels (that would effect how it can be baited / how it can be punished).

While I have issues with other things Wolf has (why is his sweetspot down smash a faster, safer and easier to sweetspot Marth tipper fsmash??), I hope they don't go the way they did with S4 Sheik and nerf all the wrong things before touching the actual moves causing pragmatic problems.

Long story short, give Ryu Wolf's Dash Attack and have a flock of players suddenly realise Ryu "clicks" for them and start amassing results matching a high tier at minimum. Ryu's burst attacks are "good" in some senses, but they really are trash in comparison.
 
Last edited:

Rehnquist

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Jan 21, 2015
Messages
91
And real talk, the sword character complaints are getting old. I don't think tournament data supports the assertion that they're oppressive.
The ire from simple to play high reward low risk playstyle isn't new to this game nor borne purely from tourney results (there are more than just swordmen who fit into this). Most early meta are usually ooga booga (like bowser, yoshi, and Lil Mac in early 4 as well. Unless can force approaches, have better frame data, or an amazing advantage, fighting a traditional swordmen will slow the game down into a very defensive play style (I actually like playing defensively, but I know most don't). How you can deal with the Swordsmen is a good barameter on whether your character is in the top 30% of competitive play. One of the reasons why they are a large source of frustration for many I imagine.
 
Last edited:

Today's Tom Sawyer

Smash Rookie
Joined
Aug 16, 2016
Messages
20
You nailed the Wolf shoto-nalysis, Shaya. I don't understand why this comparison has not gained more traction.

I hope they don't go the way they did with S4 Sheik and nerf all the wrong things before touching the actual moves causing pragmatic problems.
As a non-sm4sher, Melee Sheik main, and would-be Sheik player in smUsh, how did they screw up the nerfs specifically, what should they have done, and how should they modify her in smUsh?
 

Shaya

   「chase you」 
BRoomer
Joined
Jun 8, 2007
Messages
27,654
Location
/人◕‿‿◕人\ FABULOUS Max!
NNID
ShayaJP
As a non-sm4sher, Melee Sheik main, and would-be Sheik player in smUsh, how did they screw up the nerfs specifically, what should they have done, and how should they modify her in smUsh?
If I didn't expect such a niche to become apart of Joker's kit, I would've made it so Sheik's hand-using attacks dealt more damage while she had needle stacks. Anyway, that's fantasy and not relating to Smash4.

In smash4 they basically kept nerfing her damage output (and thus KO power).
While not nerfing what made her 'broke': the reliability of follow-ups/KOs from a grab; and to an extent, needles.

They eventually nerfed her down throw and reduced the range of needles, the last time they touched her.
Every subsequent patch they made her feel less and less rewarding to play unless you were a technical god (i.e. maximised combos as individual hit damage output was so low) and could win neutral 95% of the time or more - but until they removed the dthrow KO option she could just camp out with shield and grab (both inherently low risk options in smash4, especially in comparison to Ult) until she got the KO in attrition scenarios.

I'm not actually sure how to fix Sheik with just numbers at this time, I feel like she's genuinely annoying to fight and in some ways oppressive, but she ends up losing because a gust of wind has nothing on a bazooka.
 
Last edited:

KamikazePotato

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Aug 25, 2014
Messages
217
You can debate/discuss sword characters all day (personally I don't think they're on average any easier to play than most other characters in the cast), but when it comes down to it, the complaining about sword characters mostly comes down to two factors:

1. Some people who are salty that Fire Emblem has more characters in this game than *insert favorite series*.
2. MKLeo keeps winning majors.

Give the meta a few months to develop and for people to realize that Fox and Wolf have as many results as all the other swordsmen put together and the direction of the complaining will change from swords to spacies. Actually, don't need a few months, just until MKLeo drops Ike/Lucina for Wolf.
 
Last edited:

Ziodyne 21

Smash Lord
Joined
Apr 11, 2016
Messages
1,681
Something funny about Wolf. If Fox has the overall best Up-Smash in the game than Wolf has arguabally the best Down-Smash in the game. It is reasonablly fast and safe considering just how freaking strong it is .I mean we have all seem it kill at ledges as early as around 60% many times already.

Never mind worrying about fearing Superheavies on WW. Wolf is one of the characters I am scared of the most facing that stage mostly for that move
 
Last edited:

Sean²

Smash Capitalist
Joined
Mar 28, 2008
Messages
1,657
Switch FC
SW-7479-8539-5283
At this point, I kind of hope Wolf gets nerfed. And I've been maining him since launch.

Because I'll keep playing him and going for results while the FOTM bandwagoners all switch to whomever the next FOTM character is. Young Link, anyone?

Nintendo: Do whatever you want to Blaster, dash attack, the knockback on Up B. Just please leave the other A moves alone. More importantly, his aerials and tilts. Especially ftilt. I might actually cry if they mess with that.

Here's to 3.0.0 being a similarly conservative balance patch. But if you're nerfing Wolf, you almost gotta nerf Lucina while you're at it. IMO she's easier to play, has legitimate, can gimp just about any non-teleport recovery with no risk at all, and has fairly similar kill power. Give her a gun and she's SS tier.

I still would prefer, in the grander scheme, no nerfs for anyone. But **** me for accidentally choosing a supposed top 5 character on launch day.
 

KamikazePotato

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Aug 25, 2014
Messages
217
Give the meta a few months to develop and for people to realize that Fox and Wolf have as many results as all the other swordsmen put together
To back up this statement that may come across as hyperbole, here's the number of tournaments that a character placed highly in in the previous Smash Ultimate week of competitive play, courtesy of the "SSBU Tournament Results" thread:

Wolf - 23
Fox - 14
Falco - 2 (poor guy)
Total: 39

Cloud (7), Ike (7), Lucina (6), MetaKnight (4), Roy (4), Shulk (4), Young Link (3), Chrom (2), Link (2), Dark Pit (1), Pit (1), Marth (1), Corrin (1), Robin (1)
Total: 44

I included literally anyone that had a sword, even if they aren't lumped together into the 'swordie' category that most people think of when they throw out the term.

I'm picking on the spacies here a bit too much.
 

Lore

Infinite Gravity
BRoomer
Joined
Mar 5, 2008
Messages
14,137
Location
Formerly 'Werekill' and 'NeoTermina'
Shaya Shaya That's exactly why I couldn't main Sheik in 4. She just felt worse and worse to play unless you completely out skilled the other player.

Sean² Sean² Yup! I fully expect FOTM to be a huge factor with this game. The bandwagon effect is going to be real.

KamikazePotato KamikazePotato What are you defining as placing highly? Winning the event? Top 3? Top 8?
 

Locke 06

Sayonara, bye bye~
Joined
Oct 2, 2014
Messages
2,725
Location
Grad School
NNID
tl.206
Wolf is overtuned.
dash attack
What I expected to read was upsmash, but dash attack is also a good choice. Both of these moves, on most characters, are committal options that can get hard punished, but Wolf is allowed to challenge shield pressure with upsmash oos or try to burst forward with dash attack with less fear of heavy punishment than other characters. Upsmash>spotdodge/dtilt, dash attack>ftilt, you've definitely seen your mid-level wolf friend do this, but you've also seen top Wolves do this too. Dash attack is -11 (late hit last active frame) to -15 (first active frame) on block and crosses up, and upsmash's second hit is -18. These all translate into not getting fsmashed by Lucina, or dash grabbed by a grappler(/pichu), which allows for "good fundamentals" to shine.

However, "good fundamentals" in this case is another phrase for "pressing the good buttons."

(Note that once it becomes uptilt kill percent, uptilt is also a good button that does not get fsmashed/dash grabbed)
 

KamikazePotato

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Aug 25, 2014
Messages
217
What are you defining as placing highly? Winning the event? Top 3? Top 8?
From the topic:

In terms of how much to report, smaller tournaments should generally have their top 4 or top 8 listed, regional tournaments with around 70-80+ entrants should tend to have a top 8, super regionals with hundreds of entrants should tend to have a top 16-32, and majors/international tournaments should typically have a top 32-64 listed. Use your judgement and post what you think's appropriate.
Alternatively, here's the results for only 1st Place wins:

Wolf - 7
Fox - 3

Shulk - 2
Ike - 1
Cloud - 1
Lucina - 1
 

Shaya

   「chase you」 
BRoomer
Joined
Jun 8, 2007
Messages
27,654
Location
/人◕‿‿◕人\ FABULOUS Max!
NNID
ShayaJP
Great analysis Shaya.

Is it just me, or do dash attacks feel better in general this game?
Thank you.

On average you can see many 'traditional' neutral air sweetspots in this game are stronger launching, sour spots are weaker launching, and you see a lot of dash attacks having strong launch or KO potential now as well.
 
Last edited:

KamikazePotato

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Aug 25, 2014
Messages
217
Thanks! I wasn't sure, since I could have sworn Ridley had placed top 8 in a couple events this week, same with Samus. I probably misread or looked at the wrong week.
To clarify, the numbers I posted are from the period of Feb 4th to Feb 11th, which is the most recent data set. It's updated every Monday.
 
Last edited:

KakuCP9

What does it mean to be strong?
Joined
Apr 17, 2015
Messages
453
Location
Narnia, Canada
I don't think the swordies are overpowered (but Shulk's shield art during hitstun is super wack) , though I'm going to meme about Ike being cheater n-air; the character so none of you can stop me.

I'm not actually sure how to fix Sheik with just numbers at this time, I feel like she's genuinely annoying to fight and in some ways oppressive, but she ends up losing because a gust of wind has nothing on a bazooka.
Honestly, I think all she needs is a slight damage buff. Her neutral game is still exemplary and the charge special mechiaics give her new options to play with in neutral or edge-guarding. She also gets stuff like drag-down uair from her tilts or even her down throw at low percents. Just give a slight damage buff to her and lengthy 30% combos become 40-ish% so she doesn't have to win neutral 5+ times just get to a range where u-smash confirms or needles->bouncing fish kill. Though I feel there are other characters who could use tweeks more than Sheik (Isabelle, Charizard etc).
 
Last edited:

Y2Kay

BLACK MAMBA FOREVER
Moderator
Joined
Sep 4, 2015
Messages
3,802
Location
Brooklyn, NY
NNID
Why2Kay
Yall really need to step up the quality of your posts. If I'm keeping it real, the posts recently have been less than stellar.
You can debate/discuss sword characters all day (personally I don't think they're on average any easier to play than most other characters in the cast), but when it comes down to it, the complaining about sword characters mostly comes down to two factors:

1. Some people who are salty that Fire Emblem has more characters in this game than *insert favorite series*.
Bruh......no. There are real reasons that swordies are giving a good portion of the community problems. Swordsmen by nature have normals that are harder to challenge due to their range. Typically, the best and most applicable counter-play to swordies is through juking. Baiting a normal, then punished the whiffed strike. This has become noticeably harder with the landing lag reduction buffs. The speed creep should've compensated with this, but the increased input lag is kind screwing with the balance of the neutral. Our meta is dominated essentially by swordies and characters who can deal with swordies. If you lose to most of the FE characters, your probably not relevant to the meta. The landing lag nerf may be a bit too nuclear of solution, but it is a real issue in the game rn.

:150:
 
Last edited:
Top Bottom