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Official Competitive Character Impressions 2.0

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Planty

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People are just really conservative about Ness I guess. And a lot has to do with his preformance in Smash 4, where he also got many results early on and people called him a lower Top Tier back then.

Ness is really lucky that Rosalina has been nerfed hard, and fallen from grace. Because that character basically invalidated Ness in Smash 4 because of Gravitational Pull.
Gravitational Pull has always been extremely overrated in the Ness matchup. To gimp him like that, he needs to be hit with something like bair/dtilt/whatever at a high enough percent where an edgeguard situation is forced. From there, it becomes a 50/50 where he can up-b immediately or double jump. If he chooses to double jump, it becomes a 50/50 where he can weave away or double jump onto the stage. If he chooses to double jump onto the stage, it becomes a 50/50 where he can airdodge through your attack or he can stuff your attack with his fair. If you guess right, you'll knock him away and force an up-b for a "free" kill. If you get baited into going offstage at any point, you'll miss the edgeguard because GP has to be used very precisely or else the thunder will hit Ness and reset his up-b. (You basically have to be close enough that you can absorb, but not close enough that the thunder will hit him)

All that to say, a good Ness has a ton of ways to mix up his recovery against gravitational pull. And besides, there's so much more to a matchup than edgeguarding. It's the equivalent of saying that Little Mac or Chrom or Cloud are completely invalidated because you can easily edgeguard them.
 

PK Gaming

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Yall really need to step up the quality of your posts. If I'm keeping it real, the posts recently have been less than stellar.

Bruh......no. There are real reasons that swordies are giving a good portion of the community problems. Swordsmen by nature have normals that are harder to challenge due to their range. Typically, the best and most applicable counter-play to swordies is through juking. Baiting a normal, then punished the whiffed strike. This has become noticeably harder with the landing lag reduction buffs. The speed creep should've compensated with this, but the increased input lag is kind screwing with the balance of the neutral. Our meta is dominated essentially by swordies and characters who can deal with swordies. If you lose to most of the FE characters, your probably not relevant to the meta. The landing lag nerf may be a bit too nuclear of solution, but it is a real issue in the game rn.

:150:
Having kept up with weeklies and every major tournament so far I don't think that's the case at all. In fact I can't think of a single character or archetype who is "dominating the meta" at the moment.

I didn't think it had to be said but having a sword doesn't inherently make you dominant, so a universal landing lag nerf would be unfair to sword characters who are on the weaker end. It's Marcina, Ike, Roy and Chrom who are notable swordsmen at the moment, and even Chrom is on his way out.
 

AlMoStLeGeNdArY

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Gravitational Pull has always been extremely overrated in the Ness matchup. To gimp him like that, he needs to be hit with something like bair/dtilt/whatever at a high enough percent where an edgeguard situation is forced. From there, it becomes a 50/50 where he can up-b immediately or double jump. If he chooses to double jump, it becomes a 50/50 where he can weave away or double jump onto the stage. If he chooses to double jump onto the stage, it becomes a 50/50 where he can airdodge through your attack or he can stuff your attack with his fair. If you guess right, you'll knock him away and force an up-b for a "free" kill. If you get baited into going offstage at any point, you'll miss the edgeguard because GP has to be used very precisely or else the thunder will hit Ness and reset his up-b. (You basically have to be close enough that you can absorb, but not close enough that the thunder will hit him)

All that to say, a good Ness has a ton of ways to mix up his recovery against gravitational pull. And besides, there's so much more to a matchup than edgeguarding. It's the equivalent of saying that Little Mac or Chrom or Cloud are completely invalidated because you can easily edgeguard them.

It was pretty free tbh. Pretty sure you could run off the stage with your eyes closed and mash down B and gimp Ness in 4.

As people continue to underrate news. You simply cannot use the previous title against him as validation for his results to taper off. Ness has gotten a lot of stuff in this game and it seems as though he has kill confirms too. I don't know if down B to Baird is true but I've seen a couple of Ness players taking stocks with that. I do believe that the bluffs he received make him a way better character than he was in 4 and it's not even close.
 

ParanoidDrone

Smash Master
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We not gonna talk about how Wolf can create SF shotoish jump traps with Blaster and Wolf Flash?

No? We aren't there yet in his meta where it has become a thing?

Ok, cool.
I mean, my friend tried this on me the one time he picked up Wolf for funsies and he doesn't even go to tournaments or indeed pay much attention to the competitive scene at all. I find it hard to imagine that dedicated Wolf mains haven't realized the potential yet.
 

SwagGuy99

Smash Ace
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Dec 28, 2016
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I'm going to say the same thing as yesterday: Mario does fine despite swords so does Wario, Wolf, blah blah blah IDC anymore.
:ultmario:does fine DESPITE swords because he's a well rounded character that is very adaptable to most situations which is why he probably has a decent matchup spread in Ultimate overall. But even though he does well DESPITE swords, he doesn't do well AGAINST swords. Characters like :ultbowser::ultcloud::ultcorrin::ultdk::ultike::ultmarth::ultlucina::ultshulk: with huge disjoints outrange him by so much that if :ultdk: spaces with b-air and f-tilt or characters like :ultmarth::ultlucina::ultshulk: space with f-air, Mario can never get in.

So while I think :ultmario:is a pretty good character, I don't think he will ever be top tier unless he gets a huge sword as part of his moveset (so never) or something as he just struggles against too many top and high tiers with huge disjoints.

I do admit that he does have several good top and high tier matchups though such as :ultfox::ultpokemontrainer::ultrob::ultsnake::ultyoshi: so it's not like he's useless in the meta.
 

AlMoStLeGeNdArY

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Having kept up with weeklies and every major tournament so far I don't think that's the case at all. In fact I can't think of a single character or archetype who is "dominating the meta" at the moment.

I didn't think it had to be said but having a sword doesn't inherently make you dominant, so a universal landing lag nerf would be unfair to sword characters who are on the weaker end. It's Marcina, Ike, Roy and Chrom who are notable swordsmen at the moment, and even Chrom is on his way out.
Having a sword doesn't make you dominate. It's still on the player to use the tools properly. I will say this though none of the top characters at the moment can say they don't really care about a strong swordsmen
 

NairWizard

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To understand why sword characters as a group are considered oppressive by people who actually know what they're talking about, you have to understand something about how swordies have traditionally been played at a high level. It's not enough to simply play the game yourself or even to play the game yourself at a tournament level.

So everyone knows that a sword = range + disjoint, and most people know that the best way to deal with a swordsman's extra range and disjoint is to whiff punish, or bait the swordsman into swinging and then punish for missing. You probably know this because you've heard it said in this very thread. But do you know how a swordsman circumvents whiff punishing? What does the swordsman do for counter-counterplay?

Say that you're Brawl or Smash 4 Marth and you're in the air ready to swing your sword into a vicious tipper f-air and you see that your opponent is running at you, but you're not sure if he's going to shield, roll back, or jump, and you can't possibly react in time. What do you do?

A) Proceed with your f-air anyway
B) Use n-air instead
C) Don't swing

I sincerely hope that you didn't answer with A. If you answered B, you're right in some situations: against some characters, on some stages, at some percents.

But the correct answer is almost always C, don't swing.

In this situation, you drift away, wait for a better opportunity, and then swing later. You could drop down and tomahawk a d-tilt just to be safe. Or you could airdodge past if you have enough forward momentum and land safely on the other side. Or you could just do nothing. But more or less the point is that you don't attack, you don't commit to an option (astute readers will realize here that you've actually already committed to an action by jumping; you could peel back the layers of yomi here and realize that the swordsman also at some point needed to be certain that it was safe to commit to a jump before even being in this situation).

Sword characters attack less per minute than almost any other archetype; instead of attacking, they set up situations where they can swing a perfectly spaced f-air or n-air in reaction to the opponent doing something. As a sword player, you should be swinging your sword only when you know almost for sure that it's going to hit. This is how you limit the effectiveness of whiff punishing at a very high level.

You could play on reads, you could be aggressive and attack first, but doing so has always been the less effective strategy. For an example, just take a look at Mr. E vs. MKLeo playing Marth in smash 4: the more reactive and patient MKLeo displayed colossal advantages.

Ask any high-level swordsman main what their philosophy in a match is, and you'll get something like: "I wait until the very last possible moment to swing"
or "Every time I think I have an opportunity to attack, I don't take it, because I know my opponent will see it too."

With some exceptions such as Ike in certain matchups (who must swing first), the whole crux of playing a sword character, and the reason we group them all together, is restraint.

Except, to an extent, in Ultimate. It's way too easy for sword characters to just mash buttons in this game. That's why you have people with tons of game and theory knowledge claiming that swords are a problem--they know how swords work, and they know why the engine favors swords.

That doesn't mean that sword characters are going to fill every single spot of top tier; it's possible that other characters have tools silly enough to compete (like Wolf's b-air). I also don't think that sword characters need to be nerfed right now; I think that there's enough room for counterplay that they're going to be fine in the long run, as a purely personal opinion. But if you're going to suggest that sword characters as an archetype are on a level playing field in this iteration of smash or counter veteran sword players like EmblemLord who are making the claim that they need to be nerfed, I'm going to need something deeper from you than the shallow analysis of "but whiff punishing."
 
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Today's Tom Sawyer

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I have been playing a lot of the ZSS matchup against a solid, smart ZSS for the past few weeks. They are the type to dissect habits and condition. Makes for an intriguing style contrast against this lab cat. It's beneficial to learn matchups as an analytical type with a very interactive player.

I would peg ZSS as top tier. High flexibility and mobility is intrinsically strong in a game archetype with high defensive interactivity and a diffuse relationship between movement and defense. Sora Namco have dialed back on some of her neutral risk without either limiting her advantage payoff across the board or over-consolidating it into one or two punish routes (-cough- SFV).

:ultsheik: This seems even or slightly in ZSS' favor. ZSS can mix up Sheik's tech options on platform pretty reliably with rising forward air now in the mix, and exploit Sheik's lack of burst grounded options outside of dashback grab or perfectly-spaced f/dtilt. In return, Sheik's DI mix-ups on ZSS hurt a lot, and ZSS has considerably more trouble going offstage on Sheik than vice-versa; not sure if ZSS ledge trapping is sufficient trade-off. This is a matchup where the ZSS has to control position and the Sheik, tempo.
:ultinkling: This matchup seems even, but the ZSS has to work harder for it than the Inkling does. Inkling's circle camp against ZSS is particularly strong, since ZSS trades middle-pack start-up for long reach on her ground burst options, which Inkling can weave around pretty effectively. Also, the payoff for Inkling to circle camp is ink, which is really strong against ZSS; handy since Inkling has to go for more dthrow against ZSS (harder to follow up from). ZSS' ground game is still alright, but she has to go for more jab and ftilt and then punish Inkling with aerial mixups. Ledge-hop forward air is a good option for Inkling.
:ultyounglink: This matchup seems to favor Young Link slightly. His projectile game makes the margin, especially bomb follow-ups. Young Link can contest ZSS' fair okay with nair, but has to be wary of bair. ZSS is really reliant on her ability to force the tempo in this match with her ground mobility in conjunction with larger range outside of projectile range. Both characters edgeguard each other pretty hard; up-b and fair/uair both kill pretty early.
:ultfalcon: This matchup is extremely fun to play; the ZSS enjoys it the most, even though they are the best at the Sheik matchup out of the ones we play. It's either even or slightly in ZSS' favor; her initial dash matters more than his run speed because they both have a fairly easy time carrying one another in the air. ). C. Falcon can uair-uair-uair-hug ZSS; ZSS can uair-uair-uair-crotchkick C. Falcon, with about equal efficacy. Their side-b, dash attack, and ftilt are basically equally effective; C. Falcon has a better grab game and better tech-chases, but can't get as many grabs against a good ZSS compared to most of his other matchups. ZSS has a stronger jab and a better rising aerial game. Her fair beats C. Falcon's rising nair unless the Doug has crazy aerial drift mixups. ZSS punishes C. Falcon offstage harder, as well as having better recovery mix-ups.
 
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Rizen

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:ultmario:does fine DESPITE swords because he's a well rounded character that is very adaptable to most situations which is why he probably has a decent matchup spread in Ultimate overall. But even though he does well DESPITE swords, he doesn't do well AGAINST swords. Characters like :ultbowser::ultcloud::ultcorrin::ultdk::ultike::ultmarth::ultlucina::ultshulk: with huge disjoints outrange him by so much that if :ultdk: spaces with b-air and f-tilt or characters like :ultmarth::ultlucina::ultshulk: space with f-air, Mario can never get in.

So while I think :ultmario:is a pretty good character, I don't think he will ever be top tier unless he gets a huge sword as part of his moveset (so never) or something as he just struggles against too many top and high tiers with huge disjoints.

I do admit that he does have several good top and high tier matchups though such as :ultfox::ultpokemontrainer::ultrob::ultsnake::ultyoshi: so it's not like he's useless in the meta.
I think you're selling Mario short a bit vs disjoints. I've seen players like MastaMario do fine vs swords.
 

Diddy Kong

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Gravitational Pull has always been extremely overrated in the Ness matchup. To gimp him like that, he needs to be hit with something like bair/dtilt/whatever at a high enough percent where an edgeguard situation is forced. From there, it becomes a 50/50 where he can up-b immediately or double jump. If he chooses to double jump, it becomes a 50/50 where he can weave away or double jump onto the stage. If he chooses to double jump onto the stage, it becomes a 50/50 where he can airdodge through your attack or he can stuff your attack with his fair. If you guess right, you'll knock him away and force an up-b for a "free" kill. If you get baited into going offstage at any point, you'll miss the edgeguard because GP has to be used very precisely or else the thunder will hit Ness and reset his up-b. (You basically have to be close enough that you can absorb, but not close enough that the thunder will hit him)

All that to say, a good Ness has a ton of ways to mix up his recovery against gravitational pull. And besides, there's so much more to a matchup than edgeguarding. It's the equivalent of saying that Little Mac or Chrom or Cloud are completely invalidated because you can easily edgeguard them.
Okay well that's true, and maybe I worded it badly, but the Rosalina matchup in 4 for Ness was also opressive in other ways then I guess. The engine of extreme strong shields also didn't do his PSI projectile game well I guess, and once that knowlegde was realized, Ness was easier to exploit. Same with his recovery. And that's his main weakness, as soon as the whole engine of the 'new Smash' is figured out, Ness's PK Thunder recovery becomes increasingly easy to exploit. Maybe THAT'S the main thing keeping Ness down overall in the long run especially. He'll enjoy early easy dominance in literally all Smash games but Melee and Brawl (Brawl only because of the dumb ass chain grab thing from Marth, and I guess also Charizard because otherwise Ness was pretty solid in that game), but as soon as people truly master the engine, gimping Ness is easy as ****. At least, that's my take on the situation. No matter how you buff Ness, his long run dominance WILL most likely get ruined because of this one particular weakness. This is why I saw many many many Ness enthusiast suggest a new Up B recovery for Ness when talking about potential character revamps in potential next Smash games in the speculation times of the forum, because they KNOW how frustrating it is on them.
 
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MG_3989

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It was pretty free tbh. Pretty sure you could run off the stage with your eyes closed and mash down B and gimp Ness in 4.

As people continue to underrate news. You simply cannot use the previous title against him as validation for his results to taper off. Ness has gotten a lot of stuff in this game and it seems as though he has kill confirms too. I don't know if down B to Baird is true but I've seen a couple of Ness players taking stocks with that. I do believe that the bluffs he received make him a way better character than he was in 4 and it's not even close.
I’m not sure if magnet to bair but it hits is true but falling up air to grab is true at any percent which is a kill confirm to back throw. Trust me Ness has no problem killing and he’s not going anywhere

Let him be underrated. I’d rather be slept ok than overrated. He’s a high tier character whether people like it or not. Air dodge is such a buff for him and he doesn’t have nearly the problem with Rosalina he used to (not that she’s relevant). His recovery is absolutely fine and he can mix it up plus I’d be more worried about being edgeguarded by Ness than getting edgeguarded as Ness. It’s far more likely. He really doesn’t have any unwinnable top tier or high tier matchups (-1 at most) and he beats the rats, arguably Inkling, bodies Snake, bodies heavies, and can keep up with swords. This isn’t the past. This is now. Ness is better. Accept it people

I don’t get how people can use previous games as evidence. They mean nothing for Ultimate
 
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Diddy Kong

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Sheik has a few consistent kill confirms with tipper dtilt into buffered dash up smash until around 110%, soft Nair to BF up to 150%, FF up air drag down into down smash or forward smash (works at ANY percent) and because people tend to jump out of shield to escape her pressure, you can read this often enough. At very high percents, grounded needles force a tech that can be read with her mobility. Tipper back air kills around 130% at ledge on medium weight characters and is impossible to punish due to her landing lag. Burst grenade on a platform does good shield damage and allows you to shield poke with up smash.

Sheik has stuff.
Sheik, Diddy and Bayonetta are the most slept on character of Ultimate I honestly think. Maybe Toon Link to.
 

Y2Kay

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Having kept up with weeklies and every major tournament so far I don't think that's the case at all. In fact I can't think of a single character or archetype who is "dominating the meta" at the moment.

I didn't think it had to be said but having a sword doesn't inherently make you dominant, so a universal landing lag nerf would be unfair to sword characters who are on the weaker end. It's Marcina, Ike, Roy and Chrom who are notable swordsmen at the moment, and even Chrom is on his way out.
I don’t think swordies are meta defining or super dominant. But is with out a doubt a large archetype that you must know how to deal with if you want to succeed. Lucina, Ike, Roy, Marth, Chrom, and Cloud all are competing in the same niche and are all cream of the crop. In terms of numbers, swordsmen occupy most of the spots in top and high tier compared to other archetypes imo. I am well aware at the major tournaments that they aren't necessarily filling up the Top 8 spots, but very few people are actually at the level. At medium levels of play, I do see a lot more people struggling with them.

And also everyone keeps missing the part where I said landing lag nerfs was a bit too nuclear of an option. The point I was trying to make was that are some legitimate reasons to dislike the way several of the swordsmen function in this game in relation to other characters. To try and say that one of main reasons swordsmen are disliked by some is because people are salty about there being too many FE reps is stupid beyond belief.

:150:
 

Krysco

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After this I’m just gonna stop pointing out when people forget Ness and put characters who have less results than him. Time to just accept that he’s always gonna be underrated in Ultimate

Also I said the same thing about swordies a couple pages ago but I wouldn’t have even quoted this if Ness was represented
I did mention that there were other characters that I could have added to the list if they had more people using them and had more results. I only bothered to mention Greninja since I've at least seen gameplay of him and I didn't wanna go through the list of characters and pick out every single one that I subjectively think could have been added. Ness was on my mind but I chose to just mention one character.

I'm not actually too sure what Ness' results are. I'm aware that FOW, Awestin and...someone else, maybe BestNess? are notable mains for the character but I haven't bothered to pay too much attention to the character since he doesn't interest me and I mean that in regards to playing as him, playing against him and watching matches of him. He's just not a character that interests me in the slightest so pardon my ignorance towards whatever accomplishes he's had so far. I imagine he's at least doing better than the heavies and some others like Bowser Jr, Mac, Kirby, Puff and Zelda.
 

Today's Tom Sawyer

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Sheik, Diddy and Bayonetta are the most slept on character of Ultimate I honestly think. Maybe Toon Link to.
Toon Link is probably a high tier character, but lacks the reach of the adult variety or the explosiveness of the non-cel-shaded child variety.

Sheik, Diddy Kong, and Bayonetta all have significant strengths, but equally significant flaws. Also, Sheik's and Bayonetta's strengths are the sort that require lots of development into the character (a.k.a. time) to become fluid, while Diddy Kong's are of the sort that require lots of general meta development and matchup-specific theorycrafting (a.k.a. time) to become apparent.
 

Ziodyne 21

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To talk about ZSS, I just started taking a real glance at her and its..interesting. Ok yeah her d-throw ladder combos gone is obviously a notable nerf and would drop her down at first thought.
But man, almost ever notable move in her kit seems so much better than it was in Smash 4 though improvements to the moves themselves and indirect buffs from Ultsait engine. From her Side-B once again being a kill option, to her improved fair that mostly patches up flaws and dead-zones she had in her neutral game before.
Not only does she have a solid netural game now, but It can be a downright oppressive one at times. I believe you kind of have to think of her as almost a different character now that plays and wins differently than in Smash 4. Dont get me wrong she can still just completely explode on you and erase stocks very early Just though other means now. Like her crazy edgeguarding abilities and different combos and kill-confrims likr N-air into down-B that actullay seems better and MORE consistent than it was in Smash 4

She is a high-tier character for sure. I am not sure how much she can rise. But she is still a very big threat
 
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MG_3989

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I did mention that there were other characters that I could have added to the list if they had more people using them and had more results. I only bothered to mention Greninja since I've at least seen gameplay of him and I didn't wanna go through the list of characters and pick out every single one that I subjectively think could have been added. Ness was on my mind but I chose to just mention one character.

I'm not actually too sure what Ness' results are. I'm aware that FOW, Awestin and...someone else, maybe BestNess? are notable mains for the character but I haven't bothered to pay too much attention to the character since he doesn't interest me and I mean that in regards to playing as him, playing against him and watching matches of him. He's just not a character that interests me in the slightest so pardon my ignorance towards whatever accomplishes he's had so far. I imagine he's at least doing better than the heavies and some others like Bowser Jr, Mac, Kirby, Puff and Zelda.
That’s cool, he’s actually top 3 in results tournament wise (a lot of this has to do with Awestin and FOW winning everything but there have been way more representatives than just them), had 3 representatives in the top 64 of Genesis (Shaky, Bestness, and FOW) and has been doing incredibly well this game is and is generally considered high tier

Results wise there have been very very few characters better than him so I think he deserved a mention but if you don’t follow him at all it’s understandable
 

MG_3989

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I think I finally understand why you're so insistent than Ness is high tier. I'd like to see the source for him being top 3 in results, because I don't think he is even close to that, he's #14 here: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1AJs-mj5TTdkmkl7nhj4twJymVPTLTUdT0MBToL1cxDs/edit#gid=0.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=VtJ6KNuFiqQ
I based it on this video (where he wasn’t top 3 anymore he was top 3 in the first one so that’s my bad)

Even 14 would be high tier. I mean it is what it is what I think and what other people think don’t have to line up. It’s not like I don’t bring facts and reasons to back up my arguments and I really don’t wanna be having this argument over and over again honestly. I like seeing my main doing well and why shouldn’t I argue if I feel like people aren’t properly placing him?
 
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|RK|

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Wolf is overtuned.
This is undeniable.
This does not make the character broken by itself, just obviously very good.

What pushes Wolf over the edge of reason is that the counter-play to a character like him is pushed aside by the stupendousness of one single move in his kit. Can you guess (or more like, do you know already) what it is before you reach the end of this post?

An apt comparison for Wolf would be to Ryu, and for good reason, he's the OG shoto(?) and people with traditional fighter backgrounds see the archetype being represented well by Wolf's kit.
Ryu has big attacks - pretty fast start ups for the most part, favourable animations for a lot of them (hurtbox shifting and all of that) that are mostly safe on block plus has a horizontal projectile that's meant to dictate neutral a bit. The other "Smash" similarities of obscene KO power, vulnerable recoveries and 'poor' mobility also are shared by the two.

So why is Wolf doing so much while Ryu has fallen into obscurity? (as in, one's seemingly top tier while the other is seemingly low tier)
Well, Wolf has a lot better aerial mobility for one - while Ryu can go nyooom in the air from a jump he can't weave, this is a big factor in neutral and disadvantage but this still can be played around and Wolf can still be taken advantage of (he still has a pretty bad disadvantage).
Blaster is also obviously doing a lot more than Hadouken, but again, neither of the two moves are game changing. Ryu probably would be very happy to have Wolf's blaster instead of Hadouken though (a 'body' covering hitbox that stops people jumping into him on hadouken reads would gooo verrrrrrrrrrrrry far for him).
Ryu's technical requirements should be noted too, but I won't go into that here.

But the main thing that Wolf has that Ryu doesn't, the thing that makes his neutral feel overbearing and allows him dominance of mid-range (should be obvious now) is his burst option of DASH ATTACK.
Why does a character who should be forcing you to approach with blaster and beats just about everyone in reach, power and safety in close range normals once you do get close also dictate and win in the area similar characters are weak in (not just Ryu, but fox/falco "lose" to being baited in mid range).

His dash attack has ridiculous distance traveled (is there a longer traveling dash attack in the game????), it is practically safe on block [it doesn't just cross over shield, it's basically rolling through them], it combos and then eventually it kills, while not the strongest KO option in his kit, for a dash attack it's monstrous.
It's the best dash attack in the game bar none, and by far ("revenge stacked incineroar though!!!" - Browny).

Have you ever noticed how Wolf can just stand there, that he never needs to really shield at all? He's the character who against practically everyone (Zero Suits an exception~ YAY) never has to go further in neutral than just waiting for a reactive button trigger.
I'm not saying that if you're just standing there in shield and he dash attacks it you can't punish, but if he reads/anticipates a commitment, then the risk vs the reward of him going for a dash attack is hilarious. You playing to avoid said dash attack sets him up to freely hit your commitment with his aerials, tilts or even his pretty safe smash attacks.
When attrition comes and you're both at 120% - he's got the half-stage wide KO option that cannot be reacted to nor barely can be punished, and he's constantly forcing you to be moving or acting amidst lasers, who should be winning between two evenly skilled players a hyper majority of the time?

While Wolf would still be obnoxious in many people's eyes if they neutered that move, he would most assuredly not be able dictate the game vs other mid-rangers like he does right now (it's what the "basic fundamentals goes so far with him" means). Destroying the move wouldn't be necessary - it either just needs to stop KOing, or reduce the distance it travels (that would effect how it can be baited / how it can be punished).

While I have issues with other things Wolf has (why is his sweetspot down smash a faster, safer and easier to sweetspot Marth tipper fsmash??), I hope they don't go the way they did with S4 Sheik and nerf all the wrong things before touching the actual moves causing pragmatic problems.

Long story short, give Ryu Wolf's Dash Attack and have a flock of players suddenly realise Ryu "clicks" for them and start amassing results matching a high tier at minimum. Ryu's burst attacks are "good" in some senses, but they really are trash in comparison.
I don't know that I agree, but I could be biased from the perspective of my character.

Kirby's dash attack also kills, maintains momentum, is frame 9, crosses up, and the hitbox lasts long and extends behind him.

I think in a vacuum, Wolf's dash attack is overrated. I'd actually say his blaster ties his kit together better. His mobility and burst options, while solid, aren't really amazing.

I feel that Wolf would suffer more without blaster than without dash attack. Blaster is a tool that causes you to slow down to Wolf's pace in neutral, and helps to pin you down when Wolf wants you pinned down. Without it, I genuinely believe he wouldn't be hitting as much as he is.

Similarly, if you gave Ryu Wolf's blaster instead of Hadouken, he'd do the same thing. And he'd be more than a high tier, due to the fact that every blaster shot brings you closer to death that much quicker. Not to mention the standard shoot > opponent jumps > anti-air means death sub 100%.

...Anyways spiel over. Tl;dr - Blaster is the key that ties Wolf's gameplan together more than anything else.
 

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I don't know that I agree, but I could be biased from the perspective of my character.

Kirby's dash attack also kills, maintains momentum, is frame 9, crosses up, and the hitbox lasts long and extends behind him.

I think in a vacuum, Wolf's dash attack is overrated. I'd actually say his blaster ties his kit together better. His mobility and burst options, while solid, aren't really amazing.

I feel that Wolf would suffer more without blaster than without dash attack. Blaster is a tool that causes you to slow down to Wolf's pace in neutral, and helps to pin you down when Wolf wants you pinned down. Without it, I genuinely believe he wouldn't be hitting as much as he is.

Similarly, if you gave Ryu Wolf's blaster instead of Hadouken, he'd do the same thing. And he'd be more than a high tier, due to the fact that every blaster shot brings you closer to death that much quicker. Not to mention the standard shoot > opponent jumps > anti-air means death sub 100%.

...Anyways spiel over. Tl;dr - Blaster is the key that ties Wolf's gameplan together more than anything else.
A couple of people have brought up multi hit dash attacks, they're fundamentally different (and prone to parries).

Also you should maybe reread my post because you missed the point.
 
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|RK|

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A couple of people have brought up multi hit dash attacks, they're fundamentally different (and prone to parries).

Also you should maybe reread my post because you missed the point.
I did read it and re-read it. You acknowledged the strength of blaster, but your primary claim was that

"But the main thing that Wolf has that Ryu doesn't, the thing that makes his neutral feel overbearing and allows him dominance of mid-range (should be obvious now) is his burst option of DASH ATTACK."

I believe the main thing is a projectile that allows him to make people do what he wants. Ryu has no neutral control like that, and Wolf's dash attack wouldn't help, as the general plan vs Ryu is "stay away from him anyways."
 

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I did read it and re-read it. You acknowledged the strength of blaster, but your primary claim was that

"But the main thing that Wolf has that Ryu doesn't, the thing that makes his neutral feel overbearing and allows him dominance of mid-range (should be obvious now) is his burst option of DASH ATTACK."

I believe the main thing is a projectile that allows him to make people do what he wants. Ryu has no neutral control like that, and Wolf's dash attack wouldn't help, as the general plan vs Ryu is "stay away from him anyways."
I should've expanded more - assuming a projectile that sets pace of neutral is integral to the type of character he is (and Ryu's is obviously significantly weaker and probably shouldn't be). Dash Attack doing what it does is subtle.

They could take away his blaster and a lot of frustration would go away from playing against him at many levels of play. Characters with weaker kits may struggle implementing their game plans against that move (I'd be interested to hear who these characters are actually, it's probably a sign they're low tier). But do you feel blaster is a constant and integral factor in games when zackray or mkleo were playing him?

You don't fear blaster, you mess up and get hit by it, you continue playing neutral. Sometimes you're in a spot you have to get hit by it more than once. Getting impatient and frustrated by being hit by it is exactly what Wolf players want, and is entirely up to the opponent whether they get tilted by it or not.
And I don't think his blaser makes Wolf's neutral overbearing nor is the keystone to him dominating mid-range, the move forces approaches, it's better at further distances because it's punishable within mid range.

So, going by what you've quoted from me, I guess we disagree on the meaning of the point I made.
 
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|RK|

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I should've expanded more - assuming a projectile that sets pace of neutral is integral to the type of character he is (and Ryu's is obviously significantly weaker and probably shouldn't be). Dash Attack doing what it does is subtle.

They could take away his blaster and a lot of frustration would go away from playing against him at many levels of play. Characters with weaker kits may struggle implementing their game plans against that move (I'd be interested to hear who these characters are actually, it's probably a sign they're low tier). But do you feel blaster is a constant and integral factor in games when zackray or mkleo were playing him?

You don't fear blaster, you mess up and get hit by it, you continue playing neutral. Sometimes you're in a spot you have to get hit by it more than once. Getting impatient and frustrated by being hit by it is exactly what Wolf players want, and is entirely up to the opponent whether they get tilted by it or not.
And I don't think his blaser makes Wolf's neutral overbearing nor is the keystone to him dominating mid-range, the move forces approaches, it's better at further distances because it's punishable within mid range.

So, going by what you've quoted from me, I guess we disagree on the meaning of the point I made.
Okay, allow me to clarify my reasoning then:

Most of my Wolf experience is in region, from players like Seagull and others. Seagull is one of the Wolf players that uses blaster the most, in order to set up an RPS situation that leads into Wolf's other tools.

I can say (anecdotally only - I have no idea how others feel) that as a result of playing Seagull, I'm consistently thinking about the option of blaster - even when playing a Wolf who doesn't use it much.

It interrupts your movement, and forces you to pick an option in the way many other projectiles don't. The ideal way to deal with Wolf would be to play simple footsies - stay outside of his threat range, poke, do damage, edgeguard. Without blaster, that's simple enough. With blaster (while I'd never compare it to Sheik needles), it immediately interrupts whatever spacing or movement option you're choosing.

Wolf can then choose to keep firing laser, tomahawk your shield (and do immense damage from that grab), or just use his raw disjoints in order to hit you for trying to do something else that isn't shield. Which then also converts into huge damage.

Dash attack also feeds off of this - assume you think you can say, fake an approach over a laser, and bait Wolf into coming in too early. Then you eat the dash attack. Or if you're trying to force your way past the laser, because taking 10% per shot is frustrating - dash attack.

When you're not thinking about the option of blaster, suddenly you eat percent because your approach was too reckless or too patient. It's something where even limited use forces you to take more of Wolf's kit than you would otherwise. It's one of those subtle tools that enhances a neutral, as opposed to an obvious one.

That's why I have the perspective on it that I do. Of course, others may think of it differently.
 

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Honestly, sounds like if the two moves were toned down everyone would be happier. Except Wolf players.
Although I think if you tone down one you wouldn't need to tone down the other as much.


I can definitely expect a veteran Wolf player to be a lot more masterful of a specific move's skillsets than newer ones, even if they're "tippity-top level" players. Thus Blaster (which didn't seem that great in Brawl, but was still a solid move) would be a lot more apparent to someone's game plan than the "fundamentals 1st-day-tournament-do-well pick up" Wolfs that's all the rage right now.
 

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After this I’m just gonna stop pointing out when people forget Ness and put characters who have less results than him. Time to just accept that he’s always gonna be underrated in Ultimate

Also I said the same thing about swordies a couple pages ago but I wouldn’t have even quoted this if Ness was represented


Yeah she was around 25 or 26 and I think D tier on most tier lists
Yeah I'm thinking it's a case of the character not having a strong history competitively combined with the fact that only a select few top players have picked him up. He has so much going for him this game in that bthrow is still the best kill throw in the game imo, all of his aerials kill, he has a strong combo game with fastfall uair and magnet mixups, an absurdly good Oos option in nair, good frame data on most of his moveset, and absurd edgeguarding with PKT and yo-yo. Rosalina getting gutted, the re-introduction of directional air dodges (of which his is also really good), buffs to his air speed and the universal nerfing of recovery in this game was really helpful for him. I implore anyone here to watch Awestin play him, even against swordies and come back and tell us with a straight face that Ness isn't high tier.
 
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MG_3989

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Yeah I'm thinking it's a case of the character not having a strong history competitively combined with the fact that only a select few top players have picked him up. He has so much going for him this game in that bthrow is still the best kill throw in the game imo, all of his aerials kill, he has a strong combo game with fastfall uair and magnet mixups, an absurdly could Oos option in nair, good frame data on most of his moveset, and absurd edgeguarding with PKT and yo-yo. Rosalina getting gutted, the re-introduction of directional air dodges (of which his is also really good), buffs to his air speed and the universal nerfing of recovery in this game was really helpful for him. I implore anyone here to watch Awestin play him, even against swordies and come back and tell us with a straight face that Ness isn't high tier.
Basically this, and I mean Awestin is otherworldly, but even watch FOW or Bestness or Shaky play him and you’ll conclude the same thing. Another thing you forgot to mention is the new utility of PSI Magnet and how it has a wind box, cancels momentum for recovery and approach mixups, does damage, combos into falling uair grab and sets up bair, and can be used like a shine. That’s such a huge part of Ness’s kit right now and the usage of it is really what sets the good Ness players apart from the average ones. He has a ridiculous amount of kill options too. He’s just straight up good and even though he was mediocre in all of the past Smash games this is a new game and a new Ness

I think more players will pick him up as the meta shapes itself. He’s too good and too much fun for people not to
 
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Sean²

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Honestly, sounds like if the two moves were toned down everyone would be happier. Except Wolf players.
Although I think if you tone down one you wouldn't need to tone down the other as much.


I can definitely expect a veteran Wolf player to be a lot more masterful of a specific move's skillsets than newer ones, even if they're "tippity-top level" players. Thus Blaster (which didn't seem that great in Brawl, but was still a solid move) would be a lot more apparent to someone's game plan than the "fundamentals 1st-day-tournament-do-well pick up" Wolfs that's all the rage right now.
I think if anything gets "toned down", it should be blaster. It's the most spammable projectile in the game and does 7-10 dependent on freshness. And if you jump over it you just might get the bayonet hitbox. Dash attack is great, but IMO you don't go into a fight with well thought out plans on getting around dash attack. You do however think about how you're going to to deal with that laser.

I've never had the best Smash fundamentals, and have been at a slow crawl developing them up to Ultimate since I first tried to be really serious when Brawl came out. But I feel like I know Wolf inside and out at this point. I may not be Zackray level at consistently hitting his confirms, but I generally feel comfortable with the character. If you're familiar with the character, you can see a clear difference between the ones who studied and labbed out his stuff because they actually care about the character's meta versus the ones who very recently saw a walking hitbox who might get them in the money at a monthly. I guess compare Zackray's to MKLeo's Wolf for high level examples, but you can still tell the difference.

Regardless, I'm all for toning down. Nerf the hell out of that blaster, or dash attack, w/e IDGAF. I've never been one to intentionally employ top tiers and will welcome the new challenge. What will be depressing it is if they try to pull a Smash 4 Sheik and ruin the rest of his A moves too.

We not gonna talk about how Wolf can create SF shotoish jump traps with Blaster and Wolf Flash?

No? We aren't there yet in his meta where it has become a thing?

Ok, cool.
You can, but you have to get a hard read. Especially against smaller characters, you have to read their jump angle and whether it's a SH or FH, then angling it correctly is key to whether you get the spike hitbox, the non-spike hitbox, or whiff entirely and possibly just gift them a free punish for even trying. I've done it before, but have had mixed results. Most of the time it pays off more just to keep playing neutral unless you see the opponent constantly jumping in place to get missed by the laser or something.
 
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TumblrFamous

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Basically this, and I mean Awestin is otherworldly, but even watch FOW or Bestness or Shaky play him and you’ll conclude the same thing. Another thing you forgot to mention is the new utility of PSI Magnet and how it has a wind box, cancels momentum for recovery and approach mixups, does damage, combos into falling uair grab and sets up bair, and can be used like a shine. That’s such a huge part of Ness’s kit right now and the usage of it is really what sets the good Ness players apart from the average ones. He has a ridiculous amount of kill options too. He’s just straight up good and even though he was mediocre in all of the past Smash games this is a new game and a new Ness

I think more players will pick him up as the meta shapes itself. He’s too good and too much fun for people not to
Agree. Ness is quickly becoming my favorite character, I'm mainly using him and Palu. Magnet is such an amazing tool that has so much going for it.

Plus his overall mobility in the air has improved so much, and him having one of the best air dodges in the game makes him so much more viable.
 

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I think if anything gets "toned down", it should be blaster. It's the most spammable projectile in the game and does 7-10 dependent on freshness. And if you jump over it you just might get the bayonet hitbox. Dash attack is great, but IMO you don't go into a fight with well thought out plans on getting around dash attack. You do however think about how you're going to to deal with that laser.

I've never had the best Smash fundamentals, and have been at a slow crawl developing them up to Ultimate since I first tried to be really serious when Brawl came out. But I feel like I know Wolf inside and out at this point. I may not be Zackray level at consistently hitting his confirms, but I generally feel comfortable with the character. If you're familiar with the character, you can see a clear difference between the ones who studied and labbed out his stuff because they actually care about the character's meta versus the ones who very recently saw a walking hitbox who might get them in the money at a monthly. I guess compare Zackray's to MKLeo's Wolf for high level examples, but you can still tell the difference.

Regardless, I'm all for toning down. Nerf the hell out of that blaster, or dash attack, w/e IDGAF. I've never been one to intentionally employ top tiers and will welcome the new challenge. What will be depressing it is if they try to pull a Smash 4 Sheik and ruin the rest of his A moves too.

You can, but you have to get a hard read. Especially against smaller characters, you have to read their jump angle and whether it's a SH or FH, then angling it correctly is key to whether you get the spike hitbox, the non-spike hitbox, or whiff entirely and possibly just gift them a free punish for even trying. I've done it before, but have had mixed results. Most of the time it pays off more just to keep playing neutral unless you see the opponent constantly jumping in place to get missed by the laser or something.
I'll never understand this mindset. If i played wolf I wouldn't want him touched at all. They are no acceptable nerfs in my mind. I feel as though you have to deal with that ****. Trust and believe when Nintendo comes with the nerf bat youre not going to like it. It's not as though when people ***** out their overwhelming options they ask for nerfs. Never saw Zero ask for diddy nerfs in sm4sh.
 
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I'll never understand this mindset. If i played wolf I wouldn't want him touched at all. They are no acceptable nerfs in my mind. I feel as though you have to deal with that ****. Trust and believe when Nintendo comes with the nerf bat youre not going to like it. It's not as though when people ***** out their overwhelming options they ask for nerfs. Never saw Zero ask for diddy nerfs in sm4sh.
Well he's saying that it should be nerfed not that he wants it to be so i don't know what you're upset about.
 

MG_3989

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Agree. Ness is quickly becoming my favorite character, I'm mainly using him and Palu. Magnet is such an amazing tool that has so much going for it.

Plus his overall mobility in the air has improved so much, and him having one of the best air dodges in the game makes him so much more viable.
He really is so much fun to play. Everytime I try to learn a different character I come back to Ness real quick it’s almost a problem

Plus I haven’t found a matchup I can’t win. Yeah I’m definitely gonna pick up a secondary at some point but he doesn’t have nearly the trouble against swords that people think he does (and he beats Wolf)
 
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Heracr055

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Basically this, and I mean Awestin is otherworldly, but even watch FOW or Bestness or Shaky play him and you’ll conclude the same thing. Another thing you forgot to mention is the new utility of PSI Magnet and how it has a wind box, cancels momentum for recovery and approach mixups, does damage, combos into falling uair grab and sets up bair, and can be used like a shine. That’s such a huge part of Ness’s kit right now and the usage of it is really what sets the good Ness players apart from the average ones. He has a ridiculous amount of kill options too. He’s just straight up good and even though he was mediocre in all of the past Smash games this is a new game and a new Ness

I think more players will pick him up as the meta shapes itself. He’s too good and too much fun for people not to
Again, those with reserves on Ness (myself included) are basing our skeptism on the past history of Ness in 4, where he has a strong showing early on and then just gets lost in the shuffle for a multitude of reasons (whether the meta is unfavorable to him, or his recovery seeming too risky for consistent success, etc). And I think people won't change their minds until either:

a) Ness players perform well (say top 8 or better) at majors well into the game's lifespan, OR:

b) Takes top 2 or better at majors or supermajors, which would acceletate opinion to change

That's all there is to it, unfortunately. Ness has a long way to go until the community takes him seriously for high tier or better. It's unfair but that's how it is.

Edit for below post: The examples you mentioned below, Shulk and Greninja, were characters who had fantastic things going for them (Greninja's mobility and Shulk's range), but were held back by a few crippling qualities, where where a few tweaks would put them through the roof. I can't quite speak for Greninja myself, but for Shulk the greatest things holding him back was his frame data. Not only did he gain faster aerials thanks to the universal jumpsquat reduction, he also gained the ability to go straight to his Monado art of choice. What did Ness gain? He got a new up air and an improved down B if I recall correctly, but I don't think it's enough to catapult him up from where he was before, at least not on it's own without meta changes or universal changes that passively buff him.

Edit 2: Can we please keep the posts relevant to meta discussion and keep more "one on one but not relevant" discussions in private messages or elsewhere?
 
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MG_3989

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Again, those with reserves on Ness (myself included) are basing our skeptism on the past history of Ness in 4, where he has a strong showing early on and then just gets lost in the shuffle for a multitude of reasons (whether the meta is unfavorable to him, or his recovery seeming tol risky for consistent success, etc). And I think people won't change their minds until either:

a) Ness players perform well (say top 8 or better) at majors well into the game's lifespan, OR:

b) Takes top 2 or better at majors or supermajors, which would acceletate opinion to change

That's all there is to it, unfortunately. Ness has a long way to go until the community takes him seriously for high tier or better.
That’s straight up not fair though. It’s a different game and he’s a different character. He has a phenomenal kit and he has results. If people are rating Greninja and Shulk top tier who have barely shown anything then it’s ridiculous to not rate Ness high tier. Any character can fall off and every character has weaknesses. Something happening in the past in a different game has no bearing on now

It literally doesn’t make sense judging a character on a past game and that’s the most frequent argument I hear. His recovery problems are so overblown and his edgeguarding and kit more than make up for it (lots of top tiers have problems). I just haven’t found a reason that makes sense to why he’s not high tier
 
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Again, those with reserves on Ness (myself included) are basing our skeptism on the past history of Ness in 4, where he has a strong showing early on and then just gets lost in the shuffle for a multitude of reasons (whether the meta is unfavorable to him, or his recovery seeming too risky for consistent success, etc). And I think people won't change their minds until either:

a) Ness players perform well (say top 8 or better) at majors well into the game's lifespan, OR:

b) Takes top 2 or better at majors or supermajors, which would acceletate opinion to change

That's all there is to it, unfortunately. Ness has a long way to go until the community takes him seriously for high tier or better. It's unfair but that's how it is.
I think Ness will get at least top 5 in anything Awsten is in I think him and maybe BestNess hold the fate of Ness in their hands.
Side note I once played Awsten in a Shockwave in Pools I was still playing little mac and I got abolished.
 

MG_3989

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I think Ness will get at least top 5 in anything Awsten is in I think him and maybe BestNess hold the fate of Ness in their hands.
Side note I once played Awsten in a Shockwave in Pools I was still playing little mac and I got abolished.
I wish Awestin actually travelled. FOW’s pretty damn good too

And that must’ve been absolute murder
 
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How many times did you get PKT2’d?
Never i was to busy getting Pk magnet to Forward smashed that is how I lost most my stocks I also lost a few to Uair.

Anyway does anyone know how good R.O.B is going to be?
 
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