Official Competitive Character Impressions 2.0

[Sean²]

I'll never understand this mindset. If i played wolf I wouldn't want him touched at all. They are no acceptable nerfs in my mind. I feel as though you have to deal with that ****. Trust and believe when Nintendo comes with the nerf bat youre not going to like it. It's not as though when people ***** out their overwhelming options they ask for nerfs. Never saw Zero ask for diddy nerfs in sm4sh.

What I’m saying is everyone wants his laser or whatever nerfed. It’s been all over Twitter, and has moved here now as well. I generally hate nerfs and I think it stales the game. Patch culture is extra toxic now that people can vomit their opinion all over twitter and people will flock in to agree. I’d rather see bad characters get buffs, if you’re going to change anything at all. It’s just pointless to fight everyone’s opinion and yell “but it’s not THAT good” or “lol just learn to play around it” any more, because the laser is actually that good of a projectile. So if it’s inevitable looking at elite smash results or something, I’d rather just get it over with and move onto a new character for people to complain about. I’ll adapt, they won’t.

 

[bc1910]

Can we stop with the Ness cheerleading? I feel like this rolls round every few days now.

Ness has high tier results propped up largely by FOW bodying smaller tournaments which is hardly surprising. He hasn’t made a big splash at national level yet. The character is clearly pretty good, but not running the meta like Wolf, swordies and Pichu, it’s natural he wouldn’t be discussed as much.

Those who know me from the Smash 4 days might call me a hipocrite but having hung up my Greninja pom-poms I feel well placed to make this point because I know where this attitude gets you.

The enthusiasm is great and it’s great to enjoy discussing the character, just don’t ram him down our throats. Ness doesn’t need to be brought up every time some guy on the internet forgets to mention him when discussing high tiers.

 

[MG_3989]

Can we stop with the Ness cheerleading? I feel like this rolls round every few days now.

Ness has high tier results propped up largely by FOW bodying smaller tournaments which is hardly surprising. He hasn’t made a big splash at national level yet. The character is clearly pretty good, but not running the meta like Wolf, swordies and Pichu, it’s natural he wouldn’t be discussed as much.

Those who know me from the Smash 4 days might call me a hipocrite but having hung up my Greninja pom-poms I feel well placed to make this point because I know where this attitude gets you.

The enthusiasm is great and it’s great to enjoy discussing the character, just don’t ram him down our throats. Ness doesn’t need to be brought up every time some guy on the internet forgets to mention him when discussing high tiers.

I’m done with it. I admit I’ve probably spurred too many conversations and he doesn’t really need to be talked about this much. I get where you’re coming from and I don’t want everyone to be annoyed with me and the character because of it. I got you

 

[Frihetsanka]

That’s straight up not fair though. It’s a different game and he’s a different character.

You seem to be the most active Ness tier here. The thing is, at the end of Smash 4 Ness was a pretty average/below average character, and the buffs he got don't seem as significant as the buffs some other mid tiers got (like Ike, Wario, or Roy). Could you perhaps tell us which buffs are the most significant for him, which buffs propel him from a fairly average top 30-40 character to a strong top 20 character?

I personally think the character is better, but I don't think he's top 20 right now, although I'm not a Ness main so perhaps I'm overlooking something.

 

[Mister M]

I’m done with it

Honestly, you've got a great attitude towards learning and that will serve you well in... well, everything. The best thing about this thread is that it broadens your knowledge about the game As A Whole. Try your best to capitalise on this and you'll learn more about your own character and other characters that give you a hard time. If you don't feel knowledgeable enough to contribute, that's fine. Just lurk and read. Every detail you learn could be used to make you (And your ness) a stronger competitor.

On topic, regarding wolf's blaster vs dash attack. I feel his blaster the is the more defining move his kit because it can decide the pace of the match alone. It's interesting because while dash attack is an awesome advantage tool, the blaster is what allows it to shine.

So, the blaster doesn't exit the neutral phase of the game but the damage is good.

I also agree it doesn't really stress out better players. If you get hit, you just pick up the match where you left off. At longer ranges, it can be blocked and also evaded without too much trouble. And many characters have moves good enough to enter a projectile war or make wolf think about firing with wreckless abandon.

But on the other hand, regardless of whether you hit them or not, you get to learn a lot about the defensive habits and approach options of your opponent for near enough free (provided your smart about abusing it).

Blaster also allows you to study your opponents options at ranges where, a dash attack would allow you to maintain or enter advantage. It's your grounded fair, except it can. Its very nice on the edge if you space for the horizontal hit. On shield though, it can be quite compromising.

 

[MG_3989]

Honestly, you've got a great attitude towards learning and that will serve you well in... well, everything. The best thing about this thread is that it broadens your knowledge about the game As A Whole. Try your best to capitalise on this and you'll learn more about your own character and other characters that give you a hard time. If you don't feel knowledgeable enough to contribute, that's fine. Just lurk and read. Every detail you learn could be used to make you (And your ness) a stronger competitor.

On topic, regarding wolf's blaster vs dash attack. I feel his blaster the is the more defining move his kit because it can decide the pace of the match alone. It's interesting because while dash attack is an awesome advantage tool, the blaster is what allows it to shine.

So, the blaster doesn't exit the neutral phase of the game but the damage is good.

I also agree it doesn't really stress out better players. If you get hit, you just pick up the match where you left off. At longer ranges, it can be blocked and also evaded without too much trouble. And many characters have moves good enough to enter a projectile war or make wolf think about firing with wreckless abandon.

But on the other hand, regardless of whether you hit them or not, you get to learn a lot about the defensive habits and approach options of your opponent for near enough free (provided your smart about abusing it).

Blaster also allows you to study your opponents options at ranges where, a dash attack would allow you to maintain or enter advantage. It's your grounded fair, except it can. Its very nice on the edge if you space for the horizontal hit. On shield though, it can be quite compromising.

Well thanks for that, I appreciate the compliment and I know I have a ton to learn. I missed out on all of Smash 4 and I just started getting super serious about competitive at the start of Ultimate so this thread has helped me out so much. I only comment on the things I think I’m knowledgeable enough to comment on. I’ve been playing fighting games and playing sports competively for a long time so I know the attitude to go in with and improve. Luckily I’m picking this game up super fast and I’m competing with very good players sometimes beating them but I know I want to be the best at everything I do so I know I have a long way to go. I’m just gonna keep doing what I’m doing and I’m glad you guys are all super accepting and let me voice my opinions in here

I definitely believe blaster is the more defining move in Wolf’s kit also because of the space it creates for him to work with. Even if he’s not hitting you he’s still effectively spacing with it and it gives him control of the pace of the match. I think dash attack is something that’s used off of blaster, honestly Wolf’s whole kit is used off of blaster imo

 

[MG_3989]

You seem to be the most active Ness tier here. The thing is, at the end of Smash 4 Ness was a pretty average/below average character, and the buffs he got don't seem as significant as the buffs some other mid tiers got (like Ike, Wario, or Roy). Could you perhaps tell us which buffs are the most significant for him, which buffs propel him from a fairly average top 30-40 character to a strong top 20 character?

I personally think the character is better, but I don't think he's top 20 right now, although I'm not a Ness main so perhaps I'm overlooking something.

I didn’t play Smash 4 so I don’t have the knowledge of how he functioned and his meta in Smash 4 other than what people have told me.

From what I know I think Ness benefitted from the general changes to the engine in Ultimate however. Directional air dodging made his recovery much safer than it’s ever been before. He got buffs in ground and air speed. Since his character is based on aerials and he has some of the best in the game the general buff to aerials in this game helped him tremendously. PSI Magnet now has a hit box and wind box and combos into up air which confirms into grab and then back throw for a very solid kill confirm. Not to mention the mix ups Ness gained due to directional air dodging plus the momentum cancelling of PSI Magnet. The move acts almost like a pseudo shine with more utility. He can hit back air out of it consistently too which isn’t a kill confirm but it’s a reliable kill option. His PK Fire has lower end lag making it a more effective combo starter. He doesn’t have a super hard time recovering with one of the best air dodges and air movement in the game and he relies far less on PK Thunder to recover than ever before. His edgeguarding is top notch with PK Thunder, his yo-yo gimp, his buffed spike, PK Fire chains, and his ability to go off stage and we know how important edgeguarding is in this game

His matchup spread in this game seems much much better than what I’ve seen in Smash 4 and he beats some top tiers like Wolf, Pichu, Pikachu, Snake, and goes even with a lot of meta characters. He doesn’t really have a terrible matchup with any top or high tier, at most being -1

His results are just proof of that he’s legit right now. I don’t think that Ness was buffed a ton as much as Ultimate’s physics favoring him heavily and indirectly buffing him maybe more than any other character. He still has everything that made him scary in Smash 4 and some of it was improved while his weaknesses were reduced

I’m not a top player, probably somewhere around above average to good but I’ve studied Ness and this game a ton and I think I know enough to make this judgement. And that’s all I’m gonna say on Ness for a while because I know this thread has way too much Ness and it’s somewhat my fault

Sorry didn’t mean to double post, I thought I edited this into my last post

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

What I’m saying is everyone wants his laser or whatever nerfed. It’s been all over Twitter, and has moved here now as well. I generally hate nerfs and I think it stales the game. Patch culture is extra toxic now that people can vomit their opinion all over twitter and people will flock in to agree. I’d rather see bad characters get buffs, if you’re going to change anything at all. It’s just pointless to fight everyone’s opinion and yell “but it’s not THAT good” or “lol just learn to play around it” any more, because the laser is actually that good of a projectile. So if it’s inevitable looking at elite smash results or something, I’d rather just get it over with and move onto a new character for people to complain about. I’ll adapt, they won’t.

That makes more sense. Sometimes people will want balance at the cost of their characters. I say screw that. But we shall see I don't think wolf is going to get nerfed though. I do dislike the patch culture instead of adapting people just complain.

MG_3989 you shouldn't double post like that.

Can we stop with the Ness cheerleading? I feel like this rolls round every few days now.

Ness has high tier results propped up largely by FOW bodying smaller tournaments which is hardly surprising. He hasn’t made a big splash at national level yet. The character is clearly pretty good, but not running the meta like Wolf, swordies and Pichu, it’s natural he wouldn’t be discussed as much.

Those who know me from the Smash 4 days might call me a hipocrite but having hung up my Greninja pom-poms I feel well placed to make this point because I know where this attitude gets you.

The enthusiasm is great and it’s great to enjoy discussing the character, just don’t ram him down our throats. Ness doesn’t need to be brought up every time some guy on the internet forgets to mention him when discussing high tiers.

Ness da bess

 

[MG_3989]

That makes more sense. Sometimes people will want balance at the cost of their characters. I say screw that. But we shall see I don't think wolf is going to get nerfed though. I do dislike the patch culture instead of adapting people just complain.

MG_3989 you shouldn't double post like that.


Ness da bess

I didn’t mean to, I thought I was editing it in to my first post which I said at the bottom

 

[SwagGuy99]

I think you're selling Mario short a bit vs disjoints. I've seen players like MastaMario do fine vs swords.

I'm not saying has no hope against them. It's just that he struggles a lot against them and he doesn't have as many tools to work around them as characters like or . He can win against them, but it's a very uphill battle.

 

[The_Bookworm]

You seem to be the most active Ness tier here. The thing is, at the end of Smash 4 Ness was a pretty average/below average character, and the buffs he got don't seem as significant as the buffs some other mid tiers got (like Ike, Wario, or Roy). Could you perhaps tell us which buffs are the most significant for him, which buffs propel him from a fairly average top 30-40 character to a strong top 20 character?

I personally think the character is better, but I don't think he's top 20 right now, although I'm not a Ness main so perhaps I'm overlooking something.

Getting top 20 or close to top 20 in terms of results at the end of SSB4. Definitely sounds like an average/below-average character to me...

Anyways, the main thing is that his tools are overall buffed up once again. He now has directional airdodging at his side, he has magnet-based movement options with him as well, and up/down smashes lingering hitboxes makes it even more annoying to deal. He has received QoL buffs all around, such as his n-air's new disjointed range, and his improved PK Fire/PK Flash.

His results right now are also very good. That doesn't mean it cannot drop in the future (the same also applies to other upper tiered characters as well like Palu, Wolf, Pichu, etc), it is too great to deny right now.

 

[Ziodyne 21]

You know besidea the characters considered top-high tier due to very strong right now due to results, or that they are just considered strong by the majority now. But I see characterw that may have been brushed off , forgotten or just lacked high-level rep at the start of this game. But they do have the potential and it is starting to show.examples of characters than can easily become strong forces are ZSS Greninja and Shulk if they can just break though

I am not sure, but MM still seems very good after the 2.0.0 patch and there are still other characters that may still be slept on.

I think it attests to the pretty good balance of Ultimate so far in that is has the largest roster of any game before it. Yet it feels a great deal of it has room to grow right now. As oppoaed to Smash 4 at the end where most mid-low tier characters just were just left completely invalaidated by certian top-tiers.

 

[missingnomaster]

It's amazing how fast Piranha Plant fell out of favor. I guess it's not surprising, as while spike ball and poison cloud are excellent moves, they're pretty much the only thing Plant has going for it. Everything else feels like it was massively overbalanced to make up for those two moves. Even its other good moves have a large "but" attached to them.

The stretch attack has huge range, damage, and super armor, BUT it's slow, the aiming is impractical, and it stretches Plant's hurtbox, resulting in some physics-shattering counterplay.

Utilt is fast and juggles well, BUT it has negligible range in front or behind Plant, making it mainly an anti-air (which Plant has tons of already).

Bair KOes super early, BUT it's slow to come out, has a relatively small hitbox, and has massive endlag (not as much as an air dodge, but it's still very risky to use off stage).

 

[MG_3989]

You know besidea the characters considered top-high tier due to very strong right now due to results, or that they are just considered strong by the majority now. But I see characterw that may have been brushed off , forgotten or just lacked high-level rep at the start of this game. But they do have the potential and it is starting to show.examples of characters than can easilty become strong forces are ZSS Greninja and Shulk

I see ZSS sneaking up real soon, especially with Marrs playing her. She’s just got too much going for her to not eventually get results. I don’t know of any Greninja and Shulk players but I do believe that they’re very good characters

It's amazing how fast Piranha Plant fell out of favor. I guess it's not surprising, as while spike ball and poison cloud are excellent moves, they're pretty much the only thing Plant has going for it. Everything else feels like it was massively overbalanced to make up for those two moves. Even its other good moves have a large "but" attached to them.

The stretch attack has huge range, damage, and super armor, BUT it's slow, the aiming is impractical, and it stretches Plant's hurtbox, resulting in some physics-shattering counterplay.

Utilt is fast and juggles well, BUT it has negligible range in front or behind Plant, making it mainly an anti-air (which Plant has tons of already).

Bair KOes super early, BUT it's slow to come out, has a relatively small hitbox, and has massive endlag (not as much as an air dodge, but it's still very risky to use off stage).

Plant has that ridiculous jab and deceptive grab range too. It’s air speed is atrocious though. It has trouble killing and it’s pretty easy to avoid the poison cloud. The spiky ball is definitely a good move and ledgetrapping is about all Plant has going for it. Oh and it lives ridiculously and annoyingly long

 

[Repli.Cant]

Plant's neutral is also pretty lacking. From my point of view, it revolves around Poison Breath and how it makes opponents play around it. Therefore, if you don't have to approach, it's a nonissue. If you have a reflector, it's not as scary. If you're /, you've probably already won. Of course, if you're none of these characters, the massive range and damage Poison Breath has is something you've gotta respect. Ignoring it leads into massive damage, and trying to move around it makes you predictable. It's a pretty great move. But again, it's also a staple of his neutral, meaning it's either good or it isn't.

I like the character a lot. He definitely has to work for those kills and it's not uncommon seeing people live past 150%, but Ptooie and Poison Breath are just really good tools to have and they save him from being bottom tier. I could see some landing lag buffs to fair helping a lot, and better hitboxes on fair and uair would be a godsend. One can only hope, though.

 

[Diddy Kong]

I'm not saying has no hope against them. It's just that he struggles a lot against them and he doesn't have as many tools to work around them as characters like or . He can win against them, but it's a very uphill battle.

I guess that’s because Mario generally does well when he’s able to easily get into peoples faces. He doesn’t have very good range, or stuff to make up for it. He’s able to get in purely because of his great frame data. And that’ll force you to adapt as Mario when fighting the Top Tier sword characters as Ike, Lucina, Chrom and Cloud. I think it’s not about Mario struggling against them, more so that he’s forced to play different.

 

[Siledh]

That makes more sense. Sometimes people will want balance at the cost of their characters. I say screw that. But we shall see I don't think wolf is going to get nerfed though. I do dislike the patch culture instead of adapting people just complain.

I'd rather have patches than end up with a Melee situation where only a few characters are actually viable.

And hell, if Link were ever as good as or , I'd want him nerfed. It's boring if a character is too overpowered.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

I'd rather have patches than end up with a Melee situation where only a few characters are actually viable.

And hell, if Link were ever as good as or , I'd want him nerfed. It's boring if a character is too overpowered.

It's equally as boring when every character is weak and watered down versions of themselves. My preference is for everything to be strong and busted and let the chips fall where they may as opposed to limiting all characters and their options.

 

[Sean²]

I'd rather have patches than end up with a Melee situation where only a few characters are actually viable.

And hell, if Link were ever as good as or , I'd want him nerfed. It's boring if a character is too overpowered.

But if every character is really good, it's even more fun. If every character is just average or just above average, then you get late-era Smash 4 minus Bayonetta. Very uninteresting.

 

[Foie]

Can we stop with the Ness cheerleading? I feel like this rolls round every few days now.

Ness has high tier results propped up largely by FOW bodying smaller tournaments which is hardly surprising. He hasn’t made a big splash at national level yet. The character is clearly pretty good, but not running the meta like Wolf, swordies and Pichu, it’s natural he wouldn’t be discussed as much.

Those who know me from the Smash 4 days might call me a hipocrite but having hung up my Greninja pom-poms I feel well placed to make this point because I know where this attitude gets you.

The enthusiasm is great and it’s great to enjoy discussing the character, just don’t ram him down our throats. Ness doesn’t need to be brought up every time some guy on the internet forgets to mention him when discussing high tiers.

Yes, PLEASE. There are 75 characters, Ness shouldn't take up 50% of this chat unless he's solely shaping the meta...

I feel like we're beating a dead horse at this point with the Ness-talk. It always circles around the fact that he's a strong character with some good results and a significant exploitable weakness. His recovery has always held him back from the top of the cast, and it hasn't changed significantly in this game (such as olimar from brawl -> 4) so people have good reason to doubt his viability at the highest level of play. Yes, this is a new game but this aspect is fundamentally the same.

 

[Lore]

I, too, would prefer more buffs than bans, Sean² . I think it leads to a much more interesting game overall.

I never understood the logic of only nerfing in games. Sure, let's make the fun characters less fun instead of making other characters more fun! Nerfs are often needed, but many devs are too heavy-handed and refuse to buff.

 

[Sean²]

I'm convinced it's because it's easier to tone something down after already being proven too good versus improving something that there isn't much data on whether it's even good or not. Power creep is generally scarier to devs than its reverse.

And for the topic at hand - over discussed fighters?

Ness is pretty good, but not amazing due to some garbage matchups, mostly involving exploits in his recovery. The changes in magnet and his aerials make the character annoying af to fight, which I think turns off a lot of newer players from picking him up. Most of his mains are character purists from games past. I think his best player could theoretically be Awestin but from what I've heard he refuses to travel, so that neuters the character's success a bit. The other guys never seem to make too many heavy hitting waves.

SHULK, every time I click this thread, there's something about Shulk, and how he has so much potential. He does have potential, but is kind of hard to use effectively for lower level players. Most people just looking to win consistently aren't ever going to get the best of his potential and will drop him/not pick him up at all. So he's going to end up delegated to most of his best players being mid-high level players who might body weeklies and monthlies, but will only ever get 7-9th at regionals and 49-65th at majors. Speed is his best art but once that runs out, he feels easy to knock around.

At that I think those two characters probably don't need much more input.

Who's next?

 

[meleebrawler]

I'm convinced it's because it's easier to tone something down after already being proven too good versus improving something that there isn't much data on whether it's even good or not. Power creep is generally scarier to devs than its reverse.

Doesn't help that players will avoid using characters perceived to be weak, causing an even greater drought of useful info on them. A vicious cycle.

 

[Diddy Kong]

I'd rather have patches than end up with a Melee situation where only a few characters are actually viable.

And hell, if Link were ever as good as or , I'd want him nerfed. It's boring if a character is too overpowered.

In Smash 4, I kinda wanted Diddy nerfed early on... Only his U Air and Hoo-Hah combo. Fast forward to Ultimate, Diddy has NO killing aerial moves except for D Air, and even that got nerfed. So no, I won't advocate for nerfs anymore, especially for my main.

 

[MrGameguycolor]

I just want these characters to get buffed.

If it comes at the cost of no nerfs for a while, I'm fine with it.

 

[Foie]

I, too, would prefer more buffs than bans, Sean² . I think it leads to a much more interesting game overall.

I never understood the logic of only nerfing in games. Sure, let's make the fun characters less fun instead of making other characters more fun! Nerfs are often needed, but many devs are too heavy-handed and refuse to buff.

I don't think we have to worry to much about characters getting nerfed heavily, the balance team did a decent job toning down the top tiers last time around.

I just don't trust them to buff all the characters that need it. They gave a few characters in Smash 4 some nice improvements that brought them into the realm of viability, but they also sorely neglected quite a few as well.

I feel like they always keep casual play in mind at least equally with competitive, so certain characters are probably just doomed.

 

[fozzy fosbourne]

An approach a lot of other competitive games take is to rework a character at a time.

I'm convinced it's because it's easier to tone something down after already being proven too good versus improving something that there isn't much data on whether it's even good or not. Power creep is generally scarier to devs than its reverse.

I've seen some games approach this by reworking one non-meta character at a time, with a planned tuning release shortly after they go live. More variables are constrained than if you were try to simultaneously give many of the top tiers a hair cut and many bottom tiers a boost. It also tends to put a spotlight on the character so they get a lot of statistical data right away. An unpopular character might get some people to notice if they have had a tune-up, while broad little micro tuning to unpopular characters might still not lead to anyone giving them a chance. Some people really don't like this "FOTM" approach, others really do.

In general, I think balance tuning is more of a matter of preference than most would admit. Someone is always going to be unhappy no matter what approach is taken.

edit:

I feel like they always keep casual play in mind at least equally with competitive, so certain characters are probably just doomed.

I sometimes wonder if having all of the characters balanced at high-level competitive play is even a design goal. In other words, are there some characters that they specifically tune with the goal of being better at FFA, teams, low level play, items, etc and are perfectly content with them being less viable than other characters at the top level of competition.

Given that Nintendo's big ultimate event was with items and without most competitive rules, it wouldn't surprise me if they simply don't see it a problem if K Rool is never a meta character.

I also speculate that statistics from online play are much more influential on the changes they make than people suspect.

 

[Foie]

An approach a lot of other competitive games take is to rework a character at a time.


I've seen some games approach this by reworking one non-meta character at a time, with a planned tuning release shortly after they go live. More variables are constrained than if you were try to simultaneously give many of the top tiers a hair cut and many bottom tiers a boost. It also tends to put a spotlight on the character so they get a lot of statistical data right away. An unpopular character might get some people to notice if they have had a tune-up, while broad little micro tuning to unpopular characters might still not lead to anyone giving them a chance. Some people really don't like this "FOTM" approach, others really do.

In general, I think balance tuning is more of a matter of preference than most would admit. Someone is always going to be unhappy no matter what approach is taken.

edit:

I sometimes wonder if having all of the characters balanced at high-level competitive play is even a design goal. In other words, are there some characters that they specifically tune with the goal of being better at FFA, teams, low level play, items, etc and are perfectly content with them being less viable than other characters at the top level of competition.

Given that Nintendo's big ultimate event was with items and without most competitive rules, it wouldn't surprise me if they simply don't see it a problem if K Rool is never a meta character.

I also speculate that statistics from online play are much more influential on the changes they make than people suspect.

Actually, there's a big psychological reason why buffs are better than nerfs. Due to loss aversion, it just hurts much more to have things taken away. Here's the video, worth a watch (I wish every developer watched this video):

 

[fozzy fosbourne]

I've seen that before =). That's definitely one factor to consider.

 

[Siledh]

But if every character is really good, it's even more fun. If every character is just average or just above average, then you get late-era Smash 4 minus Bayonetta. Very uninteresting.

It's equally as boring when every character is weak and watered down versions of themselves. My preference is for everything to be strong and busted and let the chips fall where they may as opposed to limiting all characters and their options.

Perfectly fair points, but buffing is a pretty hard science. Having broken characters or overtuned/overpowered characters may be fun to watch or play, but it ultimately removes player skill from the equation. Which leads to a Hearthstone style problem where it is not the player, but the game who decides really who wins.

And what is the point in that.

Sure, buff characters, but don't be afraid to nerf them if needed.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

Perfectly fair points, but buffing is a pretty hard science. Having broken characters or overtuned/overpowered characters may be fun to watch or play, but it ultimately removes player skill from the equation. Which leads to a Hearthstone style problem where it is not the player, but the game who decides really who wins.

And what is the point in that.

Sure, buff characters, but don't be afraid to nerf them if needed.

It still on the player. Bad players won't magically get better because they're playing a stronger character. That'd be like assuming that there's no bad players of top tier characters.

 

[Diddy Kong]

You can also buff certain stuff to compensate the nerfs of something else. For example, Inkling's roller. Nerf that, but buff something else instead. Nerf Wolf's Blaster, but I dunno, give his D Smash less lag or something? It doesn't need to be all dramatic and one-sided.

 

[Sean²]

I just want these characters to get buffed.

If it comes at the cost of no nerfs for a while, I'm fine with it.

I can't express how disgustingly underwhelming Doc is. It's honestly depressing. I was messing around with him because I enjoyed him a bit in Smash 4 and I couldn't get leverage anywhere. Back air seems decent, down B and up B seem okay, pills do their job, but working successfully with anything else in his kit felt like climbing a mountain.

I don't think we have to worry to much about characters getting nerfed heavily, the balance team did a decent job toning down the top tiers last time around.

I just don't trust them to buff all the characters that need it. They gave a few characters in Smash 4 some nice improvements that brought them into the realm of viability, but they also sorely neglected quite a few as well.

I feel like they always keep casual play in mind at least equally with competitive, so certain characters are probably just doomed.

By "last time around" do you mean Smash 4, or just the last Ultimate patch?

If you mean Smash 4 then they nerfed Sheik and Diddy into boring levels but kept letting Bayo and Cloud steamroll their way through every mode. It may be unfair considering those two were DLC characters, but not a lot happened to them at all. The only characters that really got buffed to the point of being a legitimate threat were Mewtwo and Marth. I think they did a very mediocre job tbh.

And Little Mac is likely doomed to all eternity. He cleans house in FFAs on most fairly neutral stages, buff him and he'd be near unstoppable in those modes. Otherwise a terribly designed character for 1v1. Take away some of the super armor and give him a recovery that actually works, and he'd actually be a fairly okay character.

And maybe I could actually fight him online like a normally and not worry about taking an armored fsmash to the face when I think I'm gonna get a regular punish on something.

 

[PK Gaming]

Fun times: a comparison between Ultimate's early meta and Smash 4's early meta. (re my meta report)

The difference in character balance is pretty staggering. Diddy Kong comprised more than 27% of results during his pre-nerf reign of terror in 4. pic.twitter.com/YHaMHpPUEO

— Barnard's Loop (@LoopBarnard) February 18, 2019

This should speak volumes

 

[KakuCP9]

give his D Smash less lag or something? I

*****, you ought be smacked upside the head for saying this ****.

On the subject of balancing, keep in mind the scale of the game as well as tiny percentage of competitive players vs the people who just futz around with the game with friends and family. The incentive to buff up weak characters to fight clearly overtuned ones is low compared to work required to do so given the size of the cast where as parring back said overtuned characters is much simpler and quantifiable. I don't think there's anything blatantly broken at the moment either, but expecting them bring huge swaths of the cast up scratch and not nerf characters is rather unrealistic and naive. Also Peach's aerials still kinda break the rules of game so them putting the legwork for buffing characters outside of band-aid fixes (i.e. giving them an Ike nair) is even less realistic.

 

[Frihetsanka]

https://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/comments/as15eq/meta_report_1_a_look_at_character_balance_game/

Top 5 Ultimate results:
Fox – 6.4%
Wolf – 6.2%
Peach – 5.8%
Olimar – 5.2%
Snake – 5.0%

Top 5 early Smash 4 results:
Diddy Kong – 27%
Sheik – 15.3%
Ness – 6.9%
ZSS – 6%
Sonic – 5.5%

Top 5 Bayonetta era, Smash 4:
Bayonetta – 13.2%
Cloud – 8.2%
Sheik – 7.6%
Diddy Kong – 6.2%
Fox – 5.7%

Smash Ultimate doesn't seem nearly as unbalanced as Smash 4 was right now, I kind of wish people would complain a bit less (especially for characters that might not even be top 5, like Ike, Pichu, and Lucina).

 

[|RK|]

We not gonna talk about how Wolf can create SF shotoish jump traps with Blaster and Wolf Flash?

No? We aren't there yet in his meta where it has become a thing?

Ok, cool.

That's exactly what I was getting at with my "if Ryu had blaster" thing haha

And some Wolf players already do it

EDIT: My opinions on balance have changed a little. I don't think the top tiers should be nerfed - busted top tiers make people feel great, and makes the game feel more fun in a way. If your top tiers feel weak, it's kind of disappointing.

Instead, I selfishly want the characters I care about to be top tier, lower tier characters to be fully functional with a solid gameplan, and that's about it.

 

[Diddy Kong]

I have no beef with the Top Tiers yet, only that some of them are Top Tier only because of how easy it is to play them. And that's where I'm starting to miss Smash 4's Diddy, Sheik and Bayonetta, because they actually required quite some skill. They where certainly not 'pick up and play' as much as Ultimate's Wolf, Pichu or Lucina for example. That's my only gripe on the current meta game.

 

[Frihetsanka]

And that's where I'm starting to miss Smash 4's Diddy, Sheik and Bayonetta, because they actually required quite some skill. They where certainly not 'pick up and play' as much as Ultimate's Wolf, Pichu or Lucina for example. That's my only gripe on the current meta game.

There's still Peach/Daisy, Fox, Olimar, Snake, Pikachu, top tiers that are hardly "pick up and play". Potentially Shulk as well, assuming he's actually top tier. Smash 4 had Cloud as the second best character in the game, so yeah... I don't think Smash 4 top tiers were much harder, really.

I also disagree that they're top tier because they're easy to play, if that's true then shouldn't they eventually fall out of top tier once people learn how to play better characters?

 

[Diddy Kong]

There's still Peach/Daisy, Fox, Olimar, Snake, Pikachu, top tiers that are hardly "pick up and play". Potentially Shulk as well, assuming he's actually top tier. Smash 4 had Cloud as the second best character in the game, so yeah... I don't think Smash 4 top tiers were much harder, really.

I also disagree that they're top tier because they're easy to play, if that's true then shouldn't they eventually fall out of top tier once people learn how to play better characters?

Well, that's what happened with Chrom basically right? And yeah, guess those characters have more of a learning curve, but they aren't completely impossible to play either. Fox is pretty basic, Pikachu does have a lot of indebt stuff, but his bread and butter writes it self. Olimar I just.. won't play because it just doesn't work for me, same with Snake. Peach is probably the best bet, and she's also probably the best.

Also, Reddit made a Tier list in January I just discovered; https://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/comments/argg83/official_rsmashbros_ultimate_tier_list_january/

What do we think of it?

I seriously think they are underselling Greninja, Young Link, Diddy Kong, Zero Suit Samus and Wario and overestimate YOSHI, Ganondorf and King K.Rool.