Official Competitive Character Impressions 2.0

[MG_3989]

I don’t think any of the top tiers in this game are broken. We’ve seen Ike/Lucina win multiple majors because of how good Leo is more than anything else. Look how diverse the top 8 at Genesis was

 

[Scarlet Spyder]

I don't think the rats are a huge problem. They outclase Squirtle and beat him at his own game, but Ivysaur and Charizard both outrange them. Yeah Zard is combo food but that's why you don't stay as him at low percents. I think Pichu might be the scarier of the two for PT because he's so much better at killing against Charizard but then again he falls harder to Ivy's camping then Pika.

Speaking of camping though, I think characters who outcamp Ivy are Pokemon Trainer's worst match ups. If they outzone Ivy, they probably outzone Charizard as well. That means in match ups that outzone Ivy, all three pokemon struggle kill and you're forces to use clutch but riskytactics like Flare Blitz. This is why I think Mega Man and YLink are some PT's worst match ups.

Agree that are problematic for Pokémon Trainer. Squirtle can do a decent job getting in against some zoners but they’re definitely much harder matchups. I find the rats easier to deal with when you stick to center stage, too.

I probably should have mentioned that I am mostly an online player for the time being (although that should be changing soon) so input lag might still be painting my impressions. My Squirtle also needs some work so I'm probably a bit biased against Squirt favored match ups as well.

That said, while I do think PT by nature doesn't have a lot of extreme weaknesses simply by the nature of the character. That said, I don't think they utterly dominate in a lot of matches either. I don't think that many characters really lose too hard against PT since there's always some weak link they can take advantage of, and while the team covers uo each other's weaknesses they don't nulify them, and each of the three have some big weaknesses.

First, work on Squirtle! His combos can be nasty once you master them and I’m liking him more and more. You can even KO with Squirtle with some specific set-ups.

I think characters that lose hard to PT are heavies. Squirtle can combo them to >60% with one grab, Ivysaur outranges them, and Charizard’s got a speed edge over them. It’s really Ivy that wrecks them though.

Makes sense that bad/good matchups boil down to how well the best Pokémon fares. Consequently, good matchups are where Ivy dominates and bad matchups are the ones where Ivy struggles.

 

[Siledh]

Does Link count as a heavy?

 

[MrGameguycolor]

Does Link count as a heavy?

He's 104 weight units.

As a regular heavy, yes.
As a super-heavy, no.

 

[meleebrawler]

Agree that are problematic for Pokémon Trainer. Squirtle can do a decent job getting in against some zoners but they’re definitely much harder matchups. I find the rats easier to deal with when you stick to center stage, too.

First, work on Squirtle! His combos can be nasty once you master them and I’m liking him more and more. You can even KO with Squirtle with some specific set-ups.

I think characters that lose hard to PT are heavies. Squirtle can combo them to >60% with one grab, Ivysaur outranges them, and Charizard’s got a speed edge over them. It’s really Ivy that wrecks them though.

Makes sense that bad/good matchups boil down to how well the best Pokémon fares. Consequently, good matchups are where Ivy dominates and bad matchups are the ones where Ivy struggles.

In times where getting close enough for fisticuffs is too difficult, a well-timed Water Gun can earn you critical stage control. Especially if they're intent on staying out of range instead of approaching with their projectiles.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

There was a problem fetching the tweet

This should speak volumes

**** that global saturation of Diddy Kong and people ******* more about Rosalina and complained when diddy was nerf. What a joke pre patch diddy was bananas...

 

[boysilver400]

So, Leffen made a tier list on twitch earlier and he thinks Squirtle's bottom tier. Do you guys buy this? Here's the tier list.

There was a problem fetching the tweet

Also, if you think this list is poorly made or half-assed, then I definitely agree.

 

[The_Bookworm]

So, Leffen made a tier list on twitch earlier and he thinks Squirtle's bottom tier. Do you guys buy this? Here's the tier list.

There was a problem fetching the tweet

One of the worst tier lists from top players I've seen recently.
He literally just slapped half the entire cast into one whole tier and called it a day.

 

[The_Bookworm]

[Opps. Sorry for the accidental double post.]

 

[MrGameguycolor]

So, Leffen made a tier list on twitch earlier and he thinks Squirtle's bottom tier. Do you guys buy this? Here's the tier list.

There was a problem fetching the tweet

Also, if you think this list is poorly made or half-*****, then I definitely agree.

He's clearly trolling.

He placed Puff and Icies in "characters i don't ****ing care about" tier.
:D

 

[MG_3989]

That tier list is the worst I’ve seen by a pro player by far and I like Leffen too. I don’t think I even need to go into details of why I think it’s bad

 

[Spinosaurus]

I mean, I'm honestly glad he didn't attempt to rank characters that I'm guessing he doesn't know a whole lot about.

Early on it can be obvious who's really good or really bad at that moment, but when you get inbetween that it can be messy to rank at like, month 3 with that many characters.

 

[fozzy fosbourne]

Yeah, I think most tier lists are taking wild guesses at the mid-tiers anyways

 

[Frihetsanka]

He posted the tier list to YouTube: https://youtu.be/920EOF1Ct90

Note that the row below "MID TIER" is not actually a tier but just character he doesn't know and/or care enough about to rank. Leffen is mostly interested in ranking the best and the worst.

That tier list is the worst I’ve seen by a pro player by far and I like Leffen too. I don’t think I even need to go into details of why I think it’s bad

I think you do, because I'm pretty sure I've seen worse.

So, Leffen made a tier list on twitch earlier and he thinks Squirtle's bottom tier. Do you guys buy this?

Seems pretty plausible to me, Squirtle seems significantly worse as a solo character in Ultimate compared to Project M or even Brawl. As a solo character Squirtle seems lacking. However, why would you play solo Squirtle? You could just switch to Ivysaur or Charizard when you don't want to use Squirtle anymore (for instance, if you want to kill more easily). As such, I don't think people should be rating Pokémon Trainer Pokémon individually (I guess Leffen just wanted to show how bad Squirtle and Charizard are individually, and I'm inclined to agree that they're lacking, but as a whole Pokémon Trainer seems pretty good and is probably high tier, in my opinion, however it takes a loooong time to master all three characters and switching between them, so I don't think Pokémon Trainer will ever be all that popular at higher levels of play).

 

[|RK|]

Squirtle seems almost no different from Kirby to me, so it makes sense.

Super short range, high damage output at low percent, lackluster kill power. If we're actually thinking of Squirtle outside of PT, what does he do? Ivysaur def carries the whole squad IMO.

 

[fozzy fosbourne]

He explains that Squirtle alone would be really bad because he is so poor at killing. If he had good kill moves/confirms he would be high tier as a solo character.

 

[Deleted member]

Squirtle seems almost no different from Kirby to me, so it makes sense.

Super short range, high damage output at low percent, lackluster kill power. If we're actually thinking of Squirtle outside of PT, what does he do? Ivysaur def carries the whole squad IMO.

As a stand alone character he's low tier but he complements Ivy and Charsard very well by being able to wrack up the damage. His air speed is better so I'd say he's a bit better than Kirby.

 

[Jgod]

So, Leffen made a tier list on twitch earlier and he thinks Squirtle's bottom tier. Do you guys buy this? Here's the tier list.

There was a problem fetching the tweet

Also, if you think this list is poorly made or half-*****, then I definitely agree.

Solo squirtle is trash except very specific MUs. Just a worse sheik.


Also IIRC leffen just really dislikes Zard.
I wpuld rather solo Zard than squirtle and just accept up that I am going to be playing from 40-60% after losing Nuetral once.

Even still pt is a package deal and by package I mean Ivysaur.

 

[Deleted member]

Solo squirtle is trash except very specific MUs. Just a worse sheik.

It kills a bit better than sheik. But I don't see why we are theory crafting about where solo Squrtle would on the tier list?

 

[Rizen]

It's pointless to rank or any of the three as solo characters because they're not. It's like saying "Shulk without Monodo would be low tier". Squirtle serves an important purpose in the group. He's a quick little anti-zoner with good combos at low %s. Something I never see brought up is withdraw. That's a good move. He can use it from a hop strategicly to slam into characters or tank hits.

 

[|RK|]

As a stand alone character he's low tier but he complements Ivy and Charsard very well by being able to wrack up the damage. His air speed is better so I'd say he's a bit better than Kirby.

Eh, Kirby is better on the ground.

But I mean, does it really matter? In the end, I understand Leffen's reasoning.

 

[meleebrawler]

So while we're on the subject of solo mons being mediocre, Ivy for all the rep she gets for "carrying the team", would actually have an even worse disadvantage than Charizard and a recovery that could make the Belmont's look godlike, despite the lack of "lol edgehog".

Ivy's a lot like Wolf in being a fairly middle-of-the-road character statwise and having a simple to execute and understand gameplan of "fire projectile to condition opponent and punish". She lacks the transcendent benefits of Blaster though, so more competent zoners can easily beat it at it's own game; and now you know why Squirtle exists. Against those types of characters, it can pay to use Squirtle past the point where his combos lose steam just for the easier time he has putting them in disadvantage for Ivy to try and land a killing juggle or edgeguard. Conversely against swordies that aren't slow it's better to rely mainly on Ivy first then Charizard since they can contend with disjoints better and they don't tend to have the greatest options to combat Ivy's zoning.

It's pointless to rank or any of the three as solo characters because they're not. It's like saying "Shulk without Monodo would be low tier". Squirtle serves an important purpose in the group. He's a quick little anti-zoner with good combos at low %s. Something I never see brought up is withdraw. That's a good move. He can use it from a hop strategicly to slam into characters or tank hits.

Switching from Zard to use that move is like having Rock Smash with added mobility. But I think it's Water Gun that really gets overlooked. The push it gives is huge for the trivial price of being slightly less flexible to aim compared to FLUDD, and beyond the obvious gimp potential on certain recoveries it force the most stubborn of campers out of good positions.

 

[Sean²]

One of the worst tier lists from top players I've seen recently.
He literally just slapped half the entire cast into one whole tier and called it a day.

That tier list is the worst I’ve seen by a pro player by far and I like Leffen too. I don’t think I even need to go into details of why I think it’s bad

I mean have you guys seen MKLeo’s most recent one? Idk it’s not that great either. Honestly as if any pro player’s tier list is all that great. Most of them do it for sub goals or w/e and it seems like they don’t really care that much.

The easier ones to trust are ones made by people who already have the ability to play an extraordinary amount of characters at a high level. E.g. Tweek’s - it wasn’t awful but still not great. It’s so hard to be truly objective this early on, especially by yourself. No one knows every character matchup and there are a ton of underrepresented characters in competitive play, so how can you accurately represent those? I guess Leffen had the right idea to dump them off in an “idk” tier but I think there are some very easily rankable characters in his don’t care tier. It makes it almost seem like an entirely pointless endeavor.

Oh well. Anyone with matchup knowledge want to help me put together a quadrant chart? I feel like those are the future for games with an absurd number of characters like this.

 

[MG_3989]

I’m just really tired of pro tier lists in general and I don’t wanna see another one for a very long time. The pros aren’t the people who should be making the tier lists anyway

 

[PK Gaming]

So we're all under agreement that Olimar's damage values are ludicrous, right?

That should go without saying, seeing as how Purple Pikmin straight up do 20% on aerials, but it feels like his damage values are blatantly overtuned.

I haven't had the (dis)pleasure of really fighting that character, but yeah, he's hella sus

 

[Ziodyne 21]

So we're all under agreement that Olimar's damage values are ludicrous, right?

That should go without saying, seeing as how Purple Pikmin straight up do 20% on aerials, but it feels like his damage values are blatantly overtuned.

I haven't had the (dis)pleasure of really fighting that character, but yeah, it's gross.

Honestly it seems like a lot of characters are capable of racking up obscene amounts of damage in a blink of an eye in this game.

When you think of characters with fast'high damage output in Smash 4 had what. Cloud's u-air juggles. Mario's d-throw combos' Sheik's dominace in neutral and Bayo..well being Bayo. That could do such things

Now there are so many characters that can take you from 0-70 in 3 seconds with a single opening. Like I can count 15 almost

 

[G. Stache]

I don’t wanna be rude, but does posting what leffen thinks about 70+ characters in a brand new game really bring discussion anywhere? Like, no offense to leffen, but quite frankly I don’t value his opinion on most of the cast because he probably doesn’t know enough about the characters yet to make any sort of opinion that holds water. Like, most people seem to have a higher opinion of snake in this game, and leffen still slaps him into mid tier (which is obviously much better than one of his previous tier lists where he put snake in bottom tier or whatever, but that’s besides the point). I also don’t care how good solo Squirtle/Zard/Ivy are when each character is literally designed need to have very defined weaknesses that it’s two other teammates cover. I’m not even gonna get to the fact that him putting almost half the roster into the “I don’t know/care” tier shows that maybe it’s best not to be posting an entire tier list just yet. Despite being an undeniably talented player who is very knowledgeable in the characters he uses, leffen’s newest tier list is literally worse than any run-of-the-mill monthly reddit tier list. Tier lists that are notoriously pretty darn inaccurate most of the time.

I think it’s been said before, but I’m pretty sure most of these tier lists are stuff that people do because you made a promise something along the lines of “if we hit 5,000 subs on twitch I’ll release my super awesome and hype tier list!!”. I think most of us here have a good idea of who is relevant and who is not in the metagame atm and I personally don’t think we really need to post tier lists because we don’t even have enough data and results to really talk about anything besides who’s obviously relevant and who’s obviously not. Trying to make a tier list that encompasses every single character in the game right now is just a fool’s errand, while trying to make a tier list only for the characters we know are already relevant or irrelevant isn’t really giving us a tool to use so much as regurgitating information that we already know. That being said, top players instead posting MU charts revolving around the characters they literally train with for several hours a day is very helpful in discussion (unless your name is Esam and you think that Pikachu is the Thanos of the smash bros universe) and can spark discussion in this thread a whole lot better than a tier list can. I, for one, would love to see what leffen’s mu chart for Pokémon trainer actually is. What does mkleo think of Ike’s MU spread? What does tweek think about Wario and his matchups? And so on and so forth. Even if we find that the top players opinions on these MU charts are inaccurate, at least that can lead to deeper conversations as to WHY they are inaccurate and what a more reasonable opinion could be that is more representative of the game we play. MU charts can lead to discussion of common interactions and counter play that characters have to go through. For instance, I remember Rizen had a few posts about Young Link and his matchups that were honestly very helpful for me to read to understand young link a bit more. Tier lists usually only leads to whining about said tier list, kinda like what I’m doing now.

Anyways, I’m done preaching to the choir about this topic, and I still do want to talk about bowser at some point because I still think that he’s criminally underrated and under-repped for how good he is in this game.

 

[Junny]

I wish that Bayonetta could get buffed so that she cold be more viable, killing off the top with uair at 165% - 170% that's just ridiculous! I hope she can receive more buffs in the future. But I am still fine with playing her as she is now.

 

[Gearkeeper-8a]

Yes Matchup knowledge is something very important that very few players are developing, if we count the numbers of important matchups to know in this game compared to other smash games you can see that is a substantial increase, like only in the top tiers alone you have like 5-8 matchups add 10 or 12 from high tiers and consider that you still have mid tiers, the ruleset being 3 stocks helps, but as the metagame advances more people will become better with their characters and matchup knowledge would become more important not less unless future DLC is broken or gatekeepers like smash 4, and even then i doubt ultimate top tiers would be nerfed enough to become mid tier but i can see a few mid tiers and high tiers get buffed enough to be competent as we can see this in patch 2.0, so as a top player you really need to do your homework or you will fall begin.

 

[Today's Tom Sawyer]

Leffen has said before that he views the objective of a tier list as to create discussion around the list/its criteria, not necessarily to rank the characters accurately. If you listen to the video, his actual analysis is incisive. That generates more value than fixating minutely on placements; do not take it too literally. At the end of the day, it means nothing if you can evaluate character strength/potential without being able to elucidate why.

 

[MG_3989]

There really are a ridiculous amount of matchups in this game and most people are only looking at 5-10 matchups right now unless their character has a big problem matchup outside of the most succsesful characters in the game so far. I definitely can see pocket mid tiers or even low mid tiers with one or two good matchups against some top/high tiers playing a huge role in the meta as secondaries. Most players likely wouldn’t be prepared for it either because they never see it and it doesn’t seem relevant

 

[Envoy of Chaos]

So we're all under agreement that Olimar's damage values are ludicrous, right?

That should go without saying, seeing as how Purple Pikmin straight up do 20% on aerials, but it feels like his damage values are blatantly overtuned.

I haven't had the (dis)pleasure of really fighting that character, but yeah, he's hella sus

I've always agreed with this, even in Smash 4 and I'm very glad the character isn't not a popular choice.

When you factor in the passive damage Olimar racks up per stock, the damage values on his moves and for how safely he can just toss out smash attacks given the launching power on them I believe you have a top tier character. He maybe light and have a hard time getting back to stage but he doesn't have to directly engage the opponent ever so long as he can pull Pikmin and continue to dart away he doesn't have to deal with it. It's not like the act of pulling or throwing Pikmin puts him in any meaningful disadvantage unless the opponent is directly ontop of him and he didn't throw a purple. This allows him to mask those weaknesses by avoiding unnecessary damage safely. Whistle armor being a thing also helps him not only get out of bad situations but completely reverse them to his advantage. He has no shortage of kill moves and the fact he can condition shields so easily makes what's a slow kill grab not that hard to land so he not only can take you to kill percentages in seconds but also take that stock without much issue.

And this is before you get into smaller optimizations in Pikmin line ups and using Pikmin elements to deny or neuter opposing players tools that rely on those elements.

The only time I actually feel like I have an advantage on Olimar is when he's below the stage or I have a sizable lead on him. It's not hard at all for him to slowly erase deficits. I always though he was top tier in smash 4 and he likely is still now.

 

[PK Gaming]

Honestly it seems like a lot of characters are capable of racking up obscene amounts of damage in a blink of an eye in this game.

When you think of characters with fast'high damage output in Smash 4 had what. Cloud's u-air juggles. Mario's d-throw combos' Sheik's dominace in neutral and Bayo..well being Bayo. That could do such things

Now there are so many characters that can take you from 0-70 in 3 seconds with a single opening. Like I can count 15 almost

This is a blatant false equivalence though. Characters can rack up a lot of damage, but their individual hits don't do obscene damage. You often need to set those up via throws or reads, and even then, Olimar does way more in comparison.

Olimar damage output 🤩 pic.twitter.com/2rs3WJJGjf

— Liquid | Dabuz (@DabuzSenpai) February 18, 2019

It's telling that Nintendo had to nerf him (and only him) in WoL because his values are off.

 

[SwagGuy99]

So, Leffen made a tier list on twitch earlier and he thinks Squirtle's bottom tier. Do you guys buy this? Here's the tier list.

There was a problem fetching the tweet

Also, if you think this list is poorly made or half-*****, then I definitely agree.

No I don't. is easily the best of the three Pokemon as his only struggle is a lack of efficient kill moves. He has speed, combos, juggling frame data, range (on some attacks like up-smash), and he does have some good kill moves despite struggling to kill at times. He's essentually a watered down or and I would 100% argue that he should be at least 50 spots higher than that. I would argue that solo could even be top tier but since nobody is going to play solo , most people probably won't agree with that.

Also I don't like this list in general. I agree with most of the characters in the tiers that he ordered, I'd just switch the orders around the tiers but he has way too many characters in (low) mid tier. Characters like and are more than capable of being high tier, even if they don't have the results yet.

 

[What Ganon's Up To]

No I don't. is easily the best of the three Pokemon as his only struggle is a lack of efficient kill moves. He has speed, combos, juggling frame data, range (on some attacks like up-smash), and he does have some good kill moves despite struggling to kill at times. He's essentually a watered down or and I would 100% argue that he should be at least 50 spots higher than that. I would argue that solo could even be top tier but since nobody is going to play solo , most people probably won't agree with that.

Also I don't like this list in general. I agree with most of the characters in the tiers that he ordered, I'd just switch the orders around the tiers but he has way too many characters in (low) mid tier. Characters like and are more than capable of being high tier, even if they don't have the results yet.

Every character in that massive mid tier are just characters he didn't bother ranking at all, he explained that they could possibly be high or low tier, but he doesn't know/care enough about them.

 

[Deathcarter]

I don't care about Leffen tier list for the most part but is Mario really not meta relevant or is that just one of Leffen extreme takes like he initially had with Snake and Olimar?

 

[ParanoidDrone]

This is a blatant false equivalence though. Characters can rack up a lot of damage, but their individual hits don't do obscene damage. You often need to set those up via throws or reads, and even then, Olimar does way more in comparison.

Olimar damage output 🤩 pic.twitter.com/2rs3WJJGjf

— Liquid | Dabuz (@DabuzSenpai) February 18, 2019

It's telling that Nintendo had to nerf him (and only him) in WoL because his values are off.

His WOL nerf was about attack bonuses from spirits somehow getting amplified for his Pikmin attacks, not his raw (spirit-free) damage being too high. Like, Olimar + Akuma would legit do around 150 damage with a single fair. It absolutely trivialized spirit battles. Just saying.

IIRC he's also got a bug in 2.0.0 where charging his smashes doesn't actually do anything, which I suspect is somehow related to the above.

In an attempt to keep this post somewhat on-topic, I appreciate Leffen's tier list for the existence of a separate "don't care" category. With as big a cast as we have, I don't believe any one person can reasonably claim to know just how good everyone is. There's just too much knowledge to assimilate, too many gaps in experience.

 

[|RK|]

No I don't. is easily the best of the three Pokemon as his only struggle is a lack of efficient kill moves. He has speed, combos, juggling frame data, range (on some attacks like up-smash), and he does have some good kill moves despite struggling to kill at times. He's essentually a watered down or and I would 100% argue that he should be at least 50 spots higher than that. I would argue that solo could even be top tier but since nobody is going to play solo , most people probably won't agree with that.

Also I don't like this list in general. I agree with most of the characters in the tiers that he ordered, I'd just switch the orders around the tiers but he has way too many characters in (low) mid tier. Characters like and are more than capable of being high tier, even if they don't have the results yet.

Lack of efficient kill moves is huge. And range on Smash attacks hardly counts if the Smash attacks aren't good. That range doesn't translate into juggling, and in comparison to Pichu, he doesn't get in as easily, he doesn't get enough reward for getting in, and then he can't end a stock.

Plus he's tied for third-lightest in the game with all of that.

 

[VenomSnake]

Hey everyone, first post here. I've been lurking this thread since it's creation (and on/off with this website through the years), but I've also noticed how little talk there is of (even the character forum for him is dead), and I think that the pro tier lists are vastly underestimating him by putting him at dead mid-tier/lower mid tier. Sonic has, for the first time ever, a great kit where all of his moves actually are useful and have utility. Down air can reliably spike now, and homing attack is absolutely nuts. His neutral B is a free punish button on someone making a bad read regardless of distance. While Sonic's up air got a nerf to reliability, it's still a valid kill option at higher %s. I think some users/players are kind of overestimating Sonic's nerfs (which there really aren't any besides up air and shield cancelling) and still trying to play him like it's Sm4sh. He's arguably gone from one of the easiest characters to get a grip on in Sm4sh to being one of the hardest characters to master in Ultimate. He can't really be played as a bait-and-punish character effectively anymore. Once Sonic has an opening, he needs to hard rushdown and overwhelm the opponent. Sonic's recovery also got a decent upgrade in this game with directional air-dodging, which can add more vertical or horizontal recovery if needed.

That being said, Sonic definitely has weaknesses that make him much more modest than higher tier characters. While the engine benefits Sonic a lot, it arguably benefits other characters much more, especially characters with disjoints. As far as I'm aware, the only moves Sonic has with disjoints are his back air and forward smash, and only fsmash has good range. Because of this, he gets absolutely wrecked by the better swordies like Lucina and Ike along with the fact that his frame data (outside of his jabs and forward air) isn't fast enough to contest them even when he's actually in their face, and unlike Marth (in Lucina's case) there's no sourspots. Sonic is also pretty light, making him very easy to kill, while also having very poor kill moves himself. Fsmash only really works on a read, up air and forward air only work close to the blast zones, homing attack also requires a read, and his spike is very situational and still hard to land on an opponent who knows how to avoid it. Back air is arguably his only decent kill move, but even at lower kill percents it requires being semi-close to the blast zone. Sonic is incredible at dealing a lot of damage quickly, but his kill power absolutely sucks.

Tl;dr: I feel Sonic is a very good character, just not top tier. Personally, at least from what I (and most other players) know at this point, he feels most appropriate as either the very top of mid tier, or the bottom of high tier. He has okay results too, but I feel like it will grow with time, considering he is a lot harder to play in this game with his defensive game (shield-canceling) being absolutely neutered, as well as his mindgames being trickier.

 

[Siledh]

I get Leffen's list. Like online the game is dominated by so mfew characters I don't think I have even played against half the cast there. It is hard to tier a character I have never played against or as properly.

Like take Sonic. I have played one or two and neither were good. I won one and lost the other because of my own mistakes more than anything. As a fast character, he is good against zoners as he can rush us down, but yeah, besides that I can't say much.