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Official Competitive Character Impressions 2.0

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  • Total voters
    584

KamikazePotato

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Aug 25, 2014
Messages
217
Another high-level player that puts Shulk really high based seemingly on faith. I think Shulk is a strong character in this game, but his results so far have been nonexistent. Genesis 6 was a chance to make a statement as many of the strong Shulk players actually showed up to a major event for once, but none of them managed to get into Top 64. The future looks even more grim when you consider that Nicko, widely regarded as the #1 Shulk player, is a mega Persona 5 fan and will likely devote most of his time to Joker going forward.
 

zblaqk

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Jul 30, 2015
Messages
177
Another high-level player that puts Shulk really high based seemingly on faith. I think Shulk is a strong character in this game, but his results so far have been nonexistent. Genesis 6 was a chance to make a statement as many of the strong Shulk players actually showed up to a major event for once, but none of them managed to get into Top 64. The future looks even more grim when you consider that Nicko, widely regarded as the #1 Shulk player, is a mega Persona 5 fan and will likely devote most of his time to Joker going forward.
I think people see that he has loads of potential, although the amount of time someone needs to dedicate to him makes him less appealing than many of the other swordies. I see alot of players pick up a FE character as a secondary and will pull them out as a counterpick. Shulk is demanding, lending itself as a "main" character, and the only person I know that has a secondary Shulk is Larry Lurr. Hopefully more people give him a shot though...
 

Ziodyne 21

Smash Lord
Joined
Apr 11, 2016
Messages
1,681
Dabuz like MKLeo alsoplaces Palu pretty high at #6 ( Leo has her at #5) . I just dont know though Top 10 may be pushing it. She loses to speedy characters that can just rush her down and overwhelm her with strong close-range frame data :ultfox::ultpichu::ultpikachu::ultinkling::ultwario: and possibly :ultwolf:. Also her projectile kit are also really only that useful in advantage unless your upagainst st most superheavies. Where admittedly they can become pretty abusable in those MU's

Also sorry Dabuz, I respect ya tons but I cannot in no way that believe Sonic is that low.
 
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The_Bookworm

Smash Master
Joined
Jan 10, 2018
Messages
3,195
I am kind of confused why people are expecting high learning/technical characters like Shulk to get immediate results in large events within the first two months of the game. This goes alongside other characters with high learning curves: patience is required with those characters to get the results they need.
 

Megamang

Smash Lord
Joined
Apr 21, 2015
Messages
1,791
Running tilts are phenomenal for shulk. It gives him a ton more room to threaten with dtilt, running utilt is a great juggler and platform pressure... This might be obvious to most but the new monado wheel is a pretty big QoL buff.


Smash art upB oos is a really solid OoS move, and kills pretty early. Buster still hurts a ton.


His flaws have been gone over a ton, so I won't harp on it, but bad frame data is always frustrating. And having to spend less time in art and general mobility buffs means putting the pressure on him is quite effective.


Parrying is kinda scary for him, im not sure how much of a window you have but being able to parry fair and nair pretty easily is scary for him. That said, speed makes his tomahawk pretty good. What does he get out of throws? Does he still have jump u-throw -> vanilla uair kills?
 

fozzy fosbourne

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Jan 1, 2019
Messages
102
Another high-level player that puts Shulk really high based seemingly on faith. I think Shulk is a strong character in this game, but his results so far have been nonexistent. Genesis 6 was a chance to make a statement as many of the strong Shulk players actually showed up to a major event for once, but none of them managed to get into Top 64. The future looks even more grim when you consider that Nicko, widely regarded as the #1 Shulk player, is a mega Persona 5 fan and will likely devote most of his time to Joker going forward.
Dabuz has been playing Shulk this last week on stream. Still no big stage results or anything, but I guess it’s a little more legitimate than many other pros I’ve seen who vaguely understand how the character even works yet

I’m not gonna lie, I’m kind of interested in the character’s mechanics but he looks weird af. When he fox trots he looks like chucky from child’s play with a Parkinson’s wobble
 
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Rizen

Smash Legend
Joined
May 7, 2009
Messages
14,887
Location
Colorado
Don't think that :ultyounglink: can't be a **** on WarioWare because he can. The side platforms and open middle are great for projectile zoning. YL, unlike several campers, can angle his projectiles. It's banned in my region (thank god, can you imagine fighting Ike* there?!) but as YL I'd rather go there than BF, Lylat, SV and YI (brawl). I always strike BF and Lylat but instead of taking my YL to YI, where the middle platform interrupts projectiles, the middle main platform slants down so small characters can duck arrows, and the sides slant outward so you can't spam from the edge, people keep taking me to Yoshi's Story. YStory is a better CP than a pokemon stage or TnC but it's still pretty good for YL.

*Ike is really good. His attacks control a lot of space all around him. Ike's scary in advantage. His disadvantage isn't terrible either with 2 long recovery specials and a big sword. He even has a quick f4 jab for GTFO. And then there's his kill confirms. He's easily an upper high tier.
 
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SwagGuy99

Smash Ace
Joined
Dec 28, 2016
Messages
713
For the record, I don't actually think big bodies are going to be top tier in this game.
I agree. The only heavy that I see being top tier is :ultdk: which is still unlikely. He has winning/even matchups against characters like :ultness::ultmario::ultike::ultmarth::ultlucina::ultmewtwo::ultroy::ultchrom: but completely awful matchups against other top, high, and even mid tiers like :ultpikachu::ultyounglink::ultwolf::ultmegaman::ultmetaknight::ultrob:. I think that if DK got a buff to the landing lag on down-b or down-air so he could use one of them as a landing option, this could change, but for right now, I can't really decide if he's very low top tier because of his notably good matchups against some very good characters or high to mid high tier because of his losing matchups against characters who are clearly not as good tier-wise in the current early meta.
 

earthboundspacefree

Smash Cadet
Joined
May 27, 2018
Messages
51
I agree. The only heavy that I see being top tier is :ultdk: which is still unlikely. He has winning/even matchups against characters like :ultness::ultmario::ultike::ultmarth::ultlucina::ultmewtwo::ultroy::ultchrom: but completely awful matchups against other top, high, and even mid tiers like :ultpikachu::ultyounglink::ultwolf::ultmegaman::ultmetaknight::ultrob:. I think that if DK got a buff to the landing lag on down-b or down-air so he could use one of them as a landing option, this could change, but for right now, I can't really decide if he's very low top tier because of his notably good matchups against some very good characters or high to mid high tier because of his losing matchups against characters who are clearly not as good tier-wise in the current early meta.
I think the biggest issues with heavy viability is that most of the best characters have a strong projectile/keep away game. Heavies have historically struggled with that, and this game is no different.
 

SwagGuy99

Smash Ace
Joined
Dec 28, 2016
Messages
713
I mostly agree with Dabuz's list, but Ness's placement is definitely suspect.
Same here. It's good but a few characters (:ultluigi::ultdiddy::ultness::ultkrool:) just seem out of place.

Also, does anyone agree with his Mii Brawler placement? I'm not sure how much his buffs have affected him and I'm curious to see other's thoughts on this.
 

SwagGuy99

Smash Ace
Joined
Dec 28, 2016
Messages
713
I think the biggest issues with heavy viability is that most of the best characters have a strong projectile/keep away game. Heavies have historically struggled with that, and this game is no different.
That's exactly my point. :ultdk:does well against characters without strong projectile games but loses heavily against the 25% of the cast that has extremely strong projectile games which is why he's a pretty balanced character. Most people thought that :ultkrool: would be the heavy to be more viable than the others with his projectiles and unique playstyle but once people figured out that he didn't have a landing option, good frame data, or fast movement speed, people started to realize that the issue with heavies is that characters with their archetype aren't going to be top tier because most heavies like :ultganondorf::ultkingdedede::ultincineroar::ultkrool: have too many fundamental issues to be really good characters..
 
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Browny

Smash Hater
Joined
Mar 22, 2008
Messages
10,416
Location
Video Games
Another high-level player that puts Shulk really high based seemingly on faith. I think Shulk is a strong character in this game, but his results so far have been nonexistent. Genesis 6 was a chance to make a statement as many of the strong Shulk players actually showed up to a major event for once, but none of them managed to get into Top 64. The future looks even more grim when you consider that Nicko, widely regarded as the #1 Shulk player, is a mega Persona 5 fan and will likely devote most of his time to Joker going forward.
Players in Japan are doing extremely well, and Nicko in Socal I believe is winning MSMs etc there.
 

Minordeth

Smash Ace
Joined
Oct 14, 2014
Messages
921
Incineroar hella underrated right now. His recovery buff was huge.

Like, yeah, his run speed is trash. And he has to get in. But! Due to his initial dash, he has a stupid easy time microspacing and scoring whiff punishes.

His approach is slow and methodical, and it should be. You can’t have that much reward for getting in, and have an easy time getting in. But, projectile zoning is not the answer. Revenge stacks are too scary, and once he is in mid-range, his options get deeper.

Risk-reward becomes heavily skewed in his favor the closer he gets.

If you are a small, light combo oriented character, or a single-string hit character, he should be an MU you dedicate some real, serious time to - because if your combos aren’t tight, and you whiff, you will die at 50.
 

Augi

Smash Cadet
Joined
Dec 12, 2018
Messages
67
:ultzelda: Zelda is placed too low on that tier list from Dabuz... She's no where near as bad as the likes of the Icies or Rosa. Her kit is pretty solid now, albiet with maybe 1 or 2 weakspots, but who doesn't have a weakspot these days?

I feel the stigma of her Smash 4 days is still following her with most having already written her off without taking a deeper look.
 
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Ziodyne 21

Smash Lord
Joined
Apr 11, 2016
Messages
1,681
That's exactly my point. :ultdk:does well against characters without strong projectile games but loses heavily against the 25% of the cast that has extremely strong projectile games which is why he's a pretty balanced character. Most people thought that :ultkrool: would be the heavy to be more viable than the others with his projectiles and unique playstyle but once people figured out that he didn't have a landing option, good frame data, or fast movement speed, people started to realize that the issue with heavies is that characters with their archetype aren't going to be top tier because most heavies like :ultganondorf::ultkingdedede::ultincineroar::ultkrool: have too many fundamental issues to be really good characters..
Well Superheavies can have a niche or become more generally viablr depending on how future balance patches go. For example it may be worth investing in a pocket DK or Bowser if you use a character that can stuggle vs swordies, and honestly I dont think the strong and/or popular ones right now are going to be nerfed in any serious way
 
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SwagGuy99

Smash Ace
Joined
Dec 28, 2016
Messages
713
Well Superheavies can have a niche or become more generally viablr depending on how future balance patches go. For example it may be worth investing in a pocket DK or Bowser if you use a character that can stuggle vs swordies, and honestly I dont think the strong and/or popular ones right now are going to be nerfed in any serious way
I co-main :ultluigi:and :ultdk:because Luigi struggles against characters like :ultmarth:, :ultlucina:, :ultshulk:, etc.. However, Luigi does better against projectiles because he has fireballs so it works pretty well.
 

Ziodyne 21

Smash Lord
Joined
Apr 11, 2016
Messages
1,681
is Bandai-Namco handling the balance for this game right. I dont really expect things to go too crazy with balance patches. If anyone if familiar with DBFZ. They have taken a rather conservative approach to balancing im that game. Mostly they just slightly tweak or tone down the characteras considered top-tier in that game so they are still very stong,and still considered among the strongest in many cases just not as overpowering as they may have once been.

If the 2.0.0 is going to by any indication of how future patches will be. I think Bamco are going to use the same philosophy with balance patches here
 
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Frihetsanka

Smash Champion
Joined
Apr 26, 2016
Messages
2,236
Location
Sweden
If the 2.0.0 is going to by any indication of how future patches will be. I think Bamco are going to use the same philosophy with balance patches here
One could hope, although seeing how many people were like "There should be no nerfs at all in 2.0.0" I wouldn't say top tiers are safe just yet. It's possible Bandai-Namco wanted to wait a bit with nerfs before really nerfing some characters in 3.0 (though I personally, at this point in time, think the top tiers are much better balanced than in Smash 4).

I think Shulk is a strong character in this game, but his results so far have been nonexistent.
Shulk was probably one of the hardest characters in Smash 4, and I've heard several Shulk mains say he got even harder to play in Ultimate (he's better though). I could easily see him being top tier, although it might take a while until Shulk players start getting good results. Tier lists are generally not just a list of results, since then you could just look at current results and make a list based on that; instead, tier lists feature a great deal of theory. Shulk seems to be great in theory, and seems like a strong contender for high/top tier.

Darkshad, one of the best Ryu players in Smash 4, is a Shulk main now, so that's something to look forward to, I suppose.

Incineroar hella underrated right now. His recovery buff was huge.
I don't really know where to place him right now, since yeah, clearly the buffs were huge, but he was also pretty bad before the buffs. I would be interested to see a matchup chart by some prominent Incineroar player. I guess there's this:
There was a problem fetching the tweet

It's not terrible but it does make him look like a low-mid tier at best, at least as a solo main. Beating Shulk and going even with Cloud, Ike, Link, Luigi, Roy, te Belmonts, Young Link, Yoshi, Palutena, and Wolf could make him a decent counter-pick character though (or maybe even a decent main if you have some secondary to cover those bad MUs, maybe someone like Lucina or Ike could be a good secondary for Incineroar mains?).
 

bc1910

Smash Lord
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Dec 26, 2013
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bc1910
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Does anyone really know where to rank Icies though? I feel like they of all characters should be included in the “no idea” section of any player tier list right now. They’re not meta relevant but nowhere near optimised and their desynch 0-deaths have unparalleled potential. My only question would be whether the desynchs are truly too hard to pull off regularly in real matches; to be honest I expect the answer is no.

Someone will come along and roll face with ICs eventually partly due to their nutty combos and partly because no-one has a clue how to fight good ones besides carry-over tactics from Brawl.
 

Rizen

Smash Legend
Joined
May 7, 2009
Messages
14,887
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Colorado
After getting 9th the last 2 tournaments I finally broke top 8 and got 7th of 47 entrees :grin:.

Here's some more :ultyounglink: MU observations:
Previous MUs.
:ultike: I had him as -.5 but am leaning more towards -1. Like I said last post the way Ike swings his sword covers a lot of space all around him. You can think you snuck behind only to get caught by the later part on Nair or Uair. His walling in advantage is scary and he has great conversions into kill moves. Ike's big sword can stop projectiles with good timing.
YL can get strings of 50%ish from things like Soft Nair>Dtilt>Nair (combo)>falling soft Nair>DA (chain) and walls him with projectiles. YL's Nair is f4 and amazing in CQC; it's fast, kills at high % with the early hit and combos from the soft, late hit.
Ultimately Ike's reward on hit and staying power is too much for YL. He's heavy but doesn't have a huge hurtbox like super heavyweights.
-1.

:ultwolf: He's everywhere I played 3 different Wolfs last night and beat 2. I covered everything in another post:
IMO :ultyounglink:/:ultwolf: is even. An important point is YL controls neutral slightly better. YL's fire arrows are significantly faster in frame data than Wolf's blaster and both pass through each other. This is big because although Wolf has answers to YL's long range camping, Wolf has to approach. Wolf's blaster deals more damage (boomerang matches it) but YL's arrows put Wolf in the air in hitstun, disadvantage, where blaster keeps both characters in neutral. YL can also angle boomerang and toss bombs four directions. Wolf has reflector but it's one of the slower ones. So YL controls space better.

Wolf has Fair chains and can do things from Dthrows. He can be scary in advantage. YL has his own chains and Wolf doesn't have a good way to break out. YL can do things like Nair>DTilt>SH Nair combo>falling soft Nair>DA chain for 50ish %. Wolf's OoS game is slow so landing N/F/Bair (all have 6f landing lag) to start combos is relatively safe. Wolf does out-button YL up close with his f4 jab and faster Tilts so YL wants to go for midrange conversions rather than strait challenge Wolf.

The big area where Wolf pulls ahead is killing. Wolf can kill 40% earlier than YL. YL's Dsmash sends at low angles and is a great tool to get Wolf offstage. But YL has to deal a lot more damage while Wolf can make a Bair or smash read easily. It's not like Wolf has a hard time dealing his own damage either. Fair chains and blaster adds up. Wrong positioning can lead to Wolf's sideB reads too and don't forget upB.

So YL controls the match better but has to work a lot harder.
Even.

:ultyoshi: Weight is the only real advantage Yoshi has. His airspeed is great but he can't force anything on YL. Eggs get out-spammed and Yoshi lacks the disjointed reach to space YL. YL can combo off any number of attacks like bombs, boomerang, Dtilts, Nair and more. As long as YL doesn't commit to laggy reads he controls the match. Yoshi has to be careful of YL's OoS options too.
+1.5.

:ultlucas: This MU is similar to what I said about Isabelle in my last post. Lucas has options but they're weaker than YL's. He doesn't have Ness' amazing kill game to back him up. Both characters are burdened by f12 tether grabs. YL has good OoS options with f7 SH Nair and f10 Usmash but Lucas doesn't. YL's amazing landing game can pressure Lucas' shield without too much risk. YL controls the match by projectile zoning and only bombs can be absorbed by magnet if they're strong thrown. "Fire" arrows aren't energy apparently.
+1.5

:ultcloud: I only played one game vs him before the player switched to Wolf. I can't say too much about this MU except it's like fighting a faster but heavily nerfed Ike. YL's keep away is very good at outlasting limit.
Even or +.5.

:ultdk: My thoughts haven't changed. DK struggles in neutral and takes big damage in disadvantage. As long as YL doesn't commit to laggy reads he controls the match.
+1.5

:ultpokemontrainerf: Another match where YL's tools are better than the opponent's. Swapping is good for escapes but then YL can continue with his stronger neutral. None of the pokemon have a good answer to him.
:ultsquirtle: has the easiest time breaking YL's zoning but will still struggle. YL's sword disjoints and amazing Nair mean he doesn't get destroyed in CQC and would do fairly well even without projectiles. Squirt has low % combos but YL has his own. Squit doesn't have the reward for getting in to contest YL.
:ultivysaur: has roughly the same disjoints as YL. Ivy's combos off Dthrow are good and you have to watch out for U/Dair's big blasts. Razor leaf can't match YL's projectiles and YL has better mobile zoning.
:ultcharizard: like other heavyweights can be scary in advantage but gets walled hard. Flare blitz means YL can't mindlessly spam but if it's shielded YL gets a free smash.
+1.
 
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MG_3989

Smash Lord
Joined
Jan 1, 2019
Messages
1,130
Location
New Jersey
Switch FC
SW-8397-3391-6411
After getting 9th the last 2 tournaments I finally broke top 8 and got 7th of 47 entrees :grin:.

Here's some more :ultyounglink: MU observations:
Previous MUs.
:ultike: I had him as -.5 but am leaning more towards -1. Like I said last post the way Ike swings his sword covers a lot of space all around him. You can think you snuck behind only to get caught by the later part on Nair or Uair. His walling in advantage is scary and he has great conversions into kill moves. Ike's big sword can stop projectiles with good timing.
YL can get strings of 50%ish from things like Soft Nair>Dtilt>Nair (combo)>falling soft Nair>DA (chain) and walls him with projectiles. YL's Nair is f4 and amazing in CQC; it's fast, kills at high % with the early hit and combos from the soft, late hit.
Ultimately Ike's reward on hit and staying power is too much for YL. He's heavy but doesn't have a huge hurtbox like super heavyweights.
-1.

:ultwolf: He's everywhere I played 3 different Wolfs last night and beat 2. I covered everything in another post:

Even.

:ultyoshi: Weight is the only real advantage Yoshi has. His airspeed is great but he can't force anything on YL. Eggs get out-spammed and Yoshi lacks the disjointed reach to space YL. YL can combo off any number of attacks like bombs, boomerang, Dtilts, Nair and more. As long as YL doesn't commit to laggy reads he controls the match. Yoshi has to be careful of YL's OoS options too.
+1.5.

:ultlucas: This MU is similar to what I said about Isabelle in my last post. Lucas has options but they're weaker than YL's. He doesn't have Ness' amazing kill game to back him up. Both characters are burdened by f12 tether grabs. YL has good OoS options with f7 SH Nair and f10 Usmash but Lucas doesn't. YL's amazing landing game can pressure Lucas' shield without too much risk. YL controls the match by projectile zoning and only bombs can be absorbed by magnet if they're strong thrown. "Fire" arrows aren't energy apparently.
+1.5

:ultcloud: I only played one game vs him before the player switched to Wolf. I can't say too much about this MU except it's like fighting a faster but heavily nerfed Ike. YL's keep away is very good at outlasting limit.
Even or +.5.

:ultdk: My thoughts haven't changed. DK struggles in neutral and takes big damage in disadvantage. As long as YL doesn't commit to laggy reads he controls the match.
+1.5

:ultpokemontrainerf: Another match where YL's tools are better than the opponent's. Swapping is good for escapes but then YL can continue with his stronger neutral. None of the pokemon have a good answer to him.
:ultsquirtle: has the easiest time breaking YL's zoning but will still struggle. YL's sword disjoints and amazing Nair mean he doesn't get destroyed in CQC and would do fairly well even without projectiles. Squirt has low % combos but YL has his own. Squit doesn't have the reward for getting in to contest YL.
:ultivysaur: has roughly the same disjoints as YL. Ivy's combos off Dthrow are good and you have to watch out for U/Dair's big blasts. Razor leaf can't match YL's projectiles and YL has better mobile zoning.
:ultcharizard: like other heavyweights can be scary in advantage but gets walled hard. Flare blitz means YL can't mindlessly spam but if it's shielded YL gets a free smash.
+1.
Congrats dude! Must feel awesome

Love the matchup chart too. Ness may win the matchup but it sure as hell isnt an easy one. Once Ness gets in it’s definitely in his favor and short hop fast fall aerials and aerial PK Fire are life savers in this matchup, plus the yo-yo gimp works really well on YL because he’s forced to recover low a lot (I grow to love the yo-yo gimp more and more everyday lol), but YL certainly is able to harass and annoy Ness. If I’m in a tilted mood and an not playing my best I lose this one but I think you’re right that it’s generally in Ness’s favor

Does anyone really know where to rank Icies though? I feel like they of all characters should be included in the “no idea” section of any player tier list right now. They’re not meta relevant but nowhere near optimised and their desynch 0-deaths have unparalleled potential. My only question would be whether the desynchs are truly too hard to pull off regularly in real matches; to be honest I expect the answer is no.

Someone will come along and roll face with ICs eventually partly due to their nutty combos and partly because no-one has a clue how to fight good ones besides carry-over tactics from Brawl.
I’ve seen some footage of some pretty crazy ICs desync combos already and the games only been out 2 months. I’m sure people will sneak up with them. I definitely don’t think they’re gonna be a bad character and they have the potential to be extremely dangerous. Plus they hit hard and have decent signing tools. Definitely IDK tier
 
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Scarlet Spyder

Smash Cadet
Joined
Jul 11, 2015
Messages
64
After playing Pokemon Trainer :ultpokemontrainerf: some more, I'm starting to see what some of the harder match-ups are. Ideally, each Pokemon can cover each other's weaknesses and specific Pokemon will be better in certain match-ups than the other 2. The tougher match-ups are the ones where your 3rd Pokemon can't cover the other two as well as you want to.

For example, Rizen mentioned Young Link vs. Pokemon Trainer.
:ultsquirtle:Generally does well against zoners for his ability to get in and rack up damage but YL's sword and quick aerials can make this go pretty even. Ivysaur gets outzoned and Charizard can get walled out by projectiles too. Samus is another zoner that has given me trouble but Squirtle generally does well against her.

Another example of a tough match-up is :ultpikachu::ultpichu:. Although Ivy's disjoints are helpful, his defense and recovery are terrible and thus Ivysaur isn't the best here. Charizard is combo food for the electric rats as well, although the increased range on his attacks can be helpful. Again, Squirtle seems like a decent choice here but he can't keep up with the speedy combos of these two. At best, you trade aerials and hope to get in with Withdraw. Sticking to center stage helps a lot vs these two and they also die relatively early so getting a stock with Ivy's Uair or Zard's Usmash become essential.

I feel like Pokemon Trainer can go even with most of the cast and does really well in advantage, where you can spam Razor Leaf or live forever with Charizard. I'd love to hear what you all think of PT's matchups.
 

MG_3989

Smash Lord
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Jan 1, 2019
Messages
1,130
Location
New Jersey
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One could hope, although seeing how many people were like "There should be no nerfs at all in 2.0.0" I wouldn't say top tiers are safe just yet. It's possible Bandai-Namco wanted to wait a bit with nerfs before really nerfing some characters in 3.0 (though I personally, at this point in time, think the top tiers are much better balanced than in Smash 4).

Shulk was probably one of the hardest characters in Smash 4, and I've heard several Shulk mains say he got even harder to play in Ultimate (he's better though). I could easily see him being top tier, although it might take a while until Shulk players start getting good results. Tier lists are generally not just a list of results, since then you could just look at current results and make a list based on that; instead, tier lists feature a great deal of theory. Shulk seems to be great in theory, and seems like a strong contender for high/top tier.

Darkshad, one of the best Ryu players in Smash 4, is a Shulk main now, so that's something to look forward to, I suppose.

I don't really know where to place him right now, since yeah, clearly the buffs were huge, but he was also pretty bad before the buffs. I would be interested to see a matchup chart by some prominent Incineroar player. I guess there's this:
There was a problem fetching the tweet

It's not terrible but it does make him look like a low-mid tier at best, at least as a solo main. Beating Shulk and going even with Cloud, Ike, Link, Luigi, Roy, te Belmonts, Young Link, Yoshi, Palutena, and Wolf could make him a decent counter-pick character though (or maybe even a decent main if you have some secondary to cover those bad MUs, maybe someone like Lucina or Ike could be a good secondary for Incineroar mains?).
Bad matchups with Pikachu, Pichu, Fox, Peach, Snake, Inkling, Megaman, Ness, Lucina, Olimar, and Pokémon Trainer who are all top or high tier characters and very relevant right now doesn’t look good for him at all. While the only top or high tier character he beats is Shulk who hasn’t proven anything yet really

Definitely can’t solo main him. I don’t see much reason to secondary him either if he just goes even with Wolf, Ike, Link, YL, Palutena, etc...He doesn’t have one advantageous high tier matchup right now other than Shulk. Seems like there are better secondaries out there
 
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Diddy Kong

Smash Obsessed
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I'm rebuking all I said about Diddy before, he's clearly bad in this game, and needs absolute dedication, precision, cannot make ANY mistake, and win neutral all the time in order to "win". And even then, you will struggle with landing a KO. It wasn't so bad when people didn't knew the matchup yet, because Diddy was pretty much absent from the competitive scene, but I see why now. Banana > F Smash isn't even that strong considering how hard it is to land, because shields absolutely destroy it.

I haven't played in a week, and my losing streak is terrible currently. It feels like I haven't played for a whole month or so, that's how hard I need to adapt. And that's when things started to make sense... am potentially maining a Low Tier character. And it honestly sucks...
 

MG_3989

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I'm rebuking all I said about Diddy before, he's clearly bad in this game, and needs absolute dedication, precision, cannot make ANY mistake, and win neutral all the time in order to "win". And even then, you will struggle with landing a KO. It wasn't so bad when people didn't knew the matchup yet, because Diddy was pretty much absent from the competitive scene, but I see why now. Banana > F Smash isn't even that strong considering how hard it is to land, because shields absolutely destroy it.

I haven't played in a week, and my losing streak is terrible currently. It feels like I haven't played for a whole month or so, that's how hard I need to adapt. And that's when things started to make sense... am potentially maining a Low Tier character. And it honestly sucks...
Don’t be so defeatist about your gameplay and main. It’s just gonna send you into a downward spiral and you’re gonna keep losing. I don’t think Diddy is bad, definitely not low tier and at least mid tier. Losing streaks can **** with your head if you let them and make you stop enjoying the game. Everyone goes through bad periods, if you meditate definitely meditate on it a little and clear your mind. You’re beating yourself right now and we all do it from time to time. Try to step out of your head, look at it objectively, and try to not worry about winning for a little while. Again I strongly recommend meditation (to everybody, it helps my play so much. I play way worse if I don’t meditate that day)
 
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Diddy Kong

Smash Obsessed
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Don’t be so defeatist about your gameplay and main. It’s just gonna send you into a downward spiral and you’re gonna keep losing. I don’t think Diddy is bad, definitely not low tier and at least mid tier. Losing streaks can **** with your head if you let them and make you stop enjoying the game. Everyone goes through bad periods, if you meditate definitely meditate on it a little and clear your mind. You’re beating yourself right now and we all do it from time to time. Try to step out of your head, look at it objectively, and try to not worry about winning for a little while. Again I strongly recommend meditation (to everybody, it helps my play so much. I play way worse if I don’t meditate that day)
I can't really meditate, too much distraction around the house(s) I live in. Which is the reason I used to put so much time into this game honestly, just to have some alone time. Doesn't help the internet connection sucks around the house so can't even play in my own damn room. It's affecting my gameplay quite a lot, but I'll try to just put on some music, cause it allows me to focus better cause I don't have to deal with the other noices in the house.
 

MG_3989

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I can't really meditate, too much distraction around the house(s) I live in. Which is the reason I used to put so much time into this game honestly, just to have some alone time. Doesn't help the internet connection sucks around the house so can't even play in my own damn room. It's affecting my gameplay quite a lot, but I'll try to just put on some music, cause it allows me to focus better cause I don't have to deal with the other noices in the house.
Yeah I get that. You can actually use biunadial bears to meditate too. There are specific ones for gaming. I don’t know if they work but it’s easy to meditate with them on and headphones on and clear your head a little. I know this is off topic but you seem super frustrated and I want you to be able to clear your head a little bit because I know that feeling and it sucks
 

Diddy Kong

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Yeah I get that. You can actually use biunadial bears to meditate too. There are specific ones for gaming. I don’t know if they work but it’s easy to meditate with them on and headphones on and clear your head a little. I know this is off topic but you seem super frustrated and I want you to be able to clear your head a little bit because I know that feeling and it sucks
Just spend the whole week at my girl's and son's house, now am back here and am constantly losing cause of overall disturbance in the house which am not used to any more. I used to have better (hyper) focus skills, but it's also my ADD kicking in hard, the fact I haven't played all week, and other personal stuff. Anyway, thanks for the kind advice. I am indeed quite frustrated, but it doesn't have much to do with Smash.
 

Frihetsanka

Smash Champion
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I haven't played in a week, and my losing streak is terrible currently. It feels like I haven't played for a whole month or so, that's how hard I need to adapt. And that's when things started to make sense... am potentially maining a Low Tier character. And it honestly sucks...
If you don't have faith in your character and feel like your character is holding you back, it might be better to pick to some character you have more faith in, or else you risk ending up bitter whenever you lose.
 

MG_3989

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Just spend the whole week at my girl's and son's house, now am back here and am constantly losing cause of overall disturbance in the house which am not used to any more. I used to have better (hyper) focus skills, but it's also my ADD kicking in hard, the fact I haven't played all week, and other personal stuff. Anyway, thanks for the kind advice. I am indeed quite frustrated, but it doesn't have much to do with Smash.
I sent you a message. Feel free to message back with any questions. I know how much Smash helps me as an escape and it heals me and I’d hate for you to lose that

To get back on topic I know we only saw the Joker model but it looks sick. A dagger character seems awesome, we’ve never had that before. Super excited for him and to see what he brings as far as competitive potential and maybe even a unique play style
 

Today's Tom Sawyer

Smash Rookie
Joined
Aug 16, 2016
Messages
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I know we only saw the Joker model but it looks sick. A dagger character seems awesome, we’ve never had that before. Super excited for him and to see what he brings as far as competitive potential and maybe even a unique play style
Unrelated games, but the moba pessimist in me sees "dagger" and thinks "Riki" and "Quillen." Hopefully it doesn't come to that. Joker should hopefully be pretty hype though.

Also best of luck with life, Diddy.
 

Myollnir

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I am pretty sure it doesn't work with DI (Ice Shot will miss), and even then it'd only work because Yoshi's footstool animation is special.
U-Tilt has a pretty high SDI multiplier so after a few loops you'd end up too high anyways.
 

Envoy of Chaos

Smash Ace
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I don't think you have to worry about DI being a thing, the execution of that combo alone makes it something you'll never see in bracket lol.

But things like this are the reason I don't think anyone should say antheing about the Icies and their viability right now. The technical barrier is too high right now and the game is still too young.
 

MG_3989

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I am pretty sure it doesn't work with DI (Ice Shot will miss), and even then it'd only work because Yoshi's footstool animation is special.
U-Tilt has a pretty high SDI multiplier so after a few loops you'd end up too high anyways.
I’ve seen people pull off similar combos in game all the way to the edge of the stage for a spike but it probably only works against certain characters or when the opponent isn’t DIing right. Regardless I think the Ice Climbers are scary and even though we’re sleepinng on them now they’re always a character that’s meta takes the longest to develop. I’m not gonna say they’re definitely gonna be top tier but on the other hand that wouldn’t surprise in the slightest in a year or two
 

ZephyrZ

But.....DRAGONS
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After playing Pokemon Trainer :ultpokemontrainerf: some more, I'm starting to see what some of the harder match-ups are. Ideally, each Pokemon can cover each other's weaknesses and specific Pokemon will be better in certain match-ups than the other 2. The tougher match-ups are the ones where your 3rd Pokemon can't cover the other two as well as you want to.

For example, Rizen mentioned Young Link vs. Pokemon Trainer.
:ultsquirtle:Generally does well against zoners for his ability to get in and rack up damage but YL's sword and quick aerials can make this go pretty even. Ivysaur gets outzoned and Charizard can get walled out by projectiles too. Samus is another zoner that has given me trouble but Squirtle generally does well against her.

Another example of a tough match-up is :ultpikachu::ultpichu:. Although Ivy's disjoints are helpful, his defense and recovery are terrible and thus Ivysaur isn't the best here. Charizard is combo food for the electric rats as well, although the increased range on his attacks can be helpful. Again, Squirtle seems like a decent choice here but he can't keep up with the speedy combos of these two. At best, you trade aerials and hope to get in with Withdraw. Sticking to center stage helps a lot vs these two and they also die relatively early so getting a stock with Ivy's Uair or Zard's Usmash become essential.

I feel like Pokemon Trainer can go even with most of the cast and does really well in advantage, where you can spam Razor Leaf or live forever with Charizard. I'd love to hear what you all think of PT's matchups.
I don't think the rats are a huge problem. They outclase Squirtle and beat him at his own game, but Ivysaur and Charizard both outrange them. Yeah Zard is combo food but that's why you don't stay as him at low percents. I think Pichu might be the scarier of the two for PT because he's so much better at killing against Charizard but then again he falls harder to Ivy's camping then Pika.

Speaking of camping though, I think characters who outcamp Ivy are Pokemon Trainer's worst match ups. If they outzone Ivy, they probably outzone Charizard as well. That means in match ups that outzone Ivy, all three pokemon struggle kill and you're forces to use clutch but riskytactics like Flare Blitz. This is why I think Mega Man and YLink are some PT's worst match ups.
 

Siledh

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The thing is no fighting game is perfectly balanced, especially one of this scale. There's just too many little intricacies for every advantage and disadvantage to be accounted for. Metagame development can also cause a game that seems balanced at first to shift as people start favoring certain characters and strategies over others.
I mean, I get that. But all these tier lists are based on a meta which is unfairly biased against heavies by insisting on stages where they perform poorly. So ultimately, none of these tier lists are accurate. MU charts are far better and actually show what the characters can do, but even then most of that knowledge is based on playing primarily on stages which disfavour heavies.

And given the lack of harmony between some players' tier lists and their MU charts, maybe it is worthwhile considering such things.
 

Rizen

Smash Legend
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I don't think the rats are a huge problem. They outclase Squirtle and beat him at his own game, but Ivysaur and Charizard both outrange them. Yeah Zard is combo food but that's why you don't stay as him at low percents. I think Pichu might be the scarier of the two for PT because he's so much better at killing against Charizard but then again he falls harder to Ivy's camping then Pika.

Speaking of camping though, I think characters who outcamp Ivy are Pokemon Trainer's worst match ups. If they outzone Ivy, they probably outzone Charizard as well. That means in match ups that outzone Ivy, all three pokemon struggle kill and you're forces to use clutch but riskytactics like Flare Blitz. This is why I think Mega Man and YLink are some PT's worst match ups.
If YL is one of PT's worst MUs that's not so bad. It's only +1 YL by my chart.
 

ZephyrZ

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If YL is one of PT's worst MUs that's not so bad. It's only +1 YL by my chart.
I probably should have mentioned that I am mostly an online player for the time being (although that should be changing soon) so input lag might still be painting my impressions. My Squirtle also needs some work so I'm probably a bit biased against Squirt favored match ups as well.

That said, while I do think PT by nature doesn't have a lot of extreme weaknesses simply by the nature of the character. That said, I don't think they utterly dominate in a lot of matches either. I don't think that many characters really lose too hard against PT since there's always some weak link they can take advantage of, and while the team covers uo each other's weaknesses they don't nulify them, and each of the three have some big weaknesses.
 
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