Official Competitive Character Impressions 2.0

[Sinister Slush]

The few month period of smash 4 dying made me forget to use other boards outside of just Yoshi.

I'd like to hear more thoughts about Yoshi, actually. I've seen a lot of vague positive sentiment, and can personally agree that it *feels* like he's much better, but have yet to read anything that pins down just what makes him seem to tick this game.

Yoshi is actually near similar to his Smash 4 self, now that doesn't mean he's gonna drop hard like he did in smash 4 due to Diddy and DLC, unless the DLC is broken again.
The few mechanic buffs or changes Ult did is what indirectly buffed Yoshi while he stayed pretty much the same for the most part.


Retaining his throne of best airspeed in the game while the devs universally buffed all characters airspeed helped by just even giving more to him. Going off of the whole airspeed line, only allowing one airdodge now is the big indirect buff he got as well since he can chase people in the air down even better since if they AD one move they can't dodge the next hit.

Will say the team giving Yoshi an actual Bair and Ftilt now (cause both of those were dead moves in smash 4) helped a good amount, but outside of upb carrying jump momentum to help with his recovery, Bair reverting to brawl but 2 less hits and having smash 4's kill power which is basically a ******* child of brawl/4 and ftilt being our new combo starter over Utilt since the range in front of it was nerfed. Not toooo much has changed with Yoshi honestly.

Still has minor neutral problems and it'll crop up as time goes on since Pikachu is creeping up to be one of our worst MUs already, Yoshi basically getting no changes is what buffed him. At the same time due to that he's very likely not gonna be safe from big nerfs this time around instead of slap on the wrist ones he got during early for glory days.


Branching off of what zinith said earlier, only thing that was right is ftilt strings being a thing now. Grounded egg toss still not safe even with the bouncing mechanic added now, still pretty negligible. Sourspot fair and bair killed already, just bair was a bad move to use.
Uair animation is different but pretty much same hitbox, Dair actually has a worse autocancel window. Yoshi was already a rushdown, bad Yoshi's just adopted a bad camp style for some reason.
One change I like moreso for Yoshi is just being able to grab the ledge backwards and go through platforms with DownB.
Hard numbers like BKG KBG etc. hasn't been dug up yet but Fsmash and Dsmash definitely got minor buffs in that department, or it's placebo cause 1v1 damage is so high. Usmash got range nerf for sure along with eggs losing to a lot more moves now unfortunately when they used to trade before.

tl;dr Yoshi is good cause he wasn't changed much from Smash 4 while keeping insane mobility in a meta with one Airdodge now, he was already a barely above average character in 4. Just diddy and DLC wasn't fun.

edit - forgot to link this junk I've worked on.
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1U3SGk-6TwU5etHe_QmjRyoVS05hOPdE0hBbx5NfWeNw/edit?usp=sharing

Oh right, DJ heavy armor is Melee/64 subtractive armor now. Gonna take getting used to for us but it might be a nerf across the board as the duration of said armor lowered from 69 to 44 and getting little knockback can hinder us sometimes over helping us be launched higher to make it back. Or even a stray move we're not used to breaking the armor early when we're generally used to being launched so will take awhile for us all to get used to moves and airdodge when we're sucker punched.

 

[TurboLink]

Speaking of players being down on their old mains, I get the impression from Twitter that a lot old Mewtwo players are disappointed in the changes the character received.

"But wait! Didn't Mewtwo get a ton of awesome things?" Yes, but it seems like players were kinda spoiled when it comes to Mewtwo. They not only want the ability to do a running down tilt, but they want that down tilt to keep comboing as well as Smash 4. It's not enough that all characters are affected by air dodge changes; they want to be able to attack immediately out of air dodge. Somehow, Confusion having a better recovery isn't worth losing the move as a mobility tool.

I don't know, man. Is this the fate of all characters who lose some aspect of their game plan from the previous gen?

I don't know about the other characters but it's certainly not the fate of Link since his game plan changed significantly for the better and for the first time in Smash history his grab isn't so risky to use in neutral. I think that and more is worth sacrificing bombs that require less spatial awareness to combo with and a Tether Recovery and Zair.

 

[trickroom]

On top of this the sourspot does the exact same damage, just sends people to the side, so it will always kill.

It's a Falcon dair? Damn, I have to try this char. I'm glad nintendo actually made Doc uniquely useful instead of being Mario But Slow And Also Your Upsmash Is Worse For Some Reason Haha Lol.

 

[Heracr055]

So Sheik is a fairly significant casualty of how the game runs now. Since there was a universal reduction of jumpsquat frames, a general increase of speed and a nerf to grabs in general, Sheik really lost some powerful assets. Her frame data is essentially moot now, her combo game is neither as impressive or oppressive, and her short range (which wasn't as important in 4 since few could challenge her frame data and mobility) is even more of a liability.
I'm not seeing her rising above mid, and will probably end up in low mid tier.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

So Sheik is a fairly significant casualty of how the game runs now. Since there was a universal reduction of jumpsquat frames, a general increase of speed and a nerf to grabs in general, Sheik really lost some powerful assets. Her frame data is essentially moot now, her combo game is neither as impressive or oppressive, and her short range (which wasn't as important in 4 since few could challenge her frame data and mobility) is even more of a liability.
I'm not seeing her rising above mid, and will probably end up in low mid tier.

I think Sheik's future is going to be a hit and run character.

I'm not sure she has the tools to be much else. Her strings don't seem to be quite as effective anymore.

 

[Modesty]

ZSS is a character I'm pretty interested in. Seems like she has a solid combo game and benefits from the new engine, but has trouble actually killing people. Right now she feels mid tier, but I could see her becoming high tier if people can find better ways to net kills.

Overall I think the game feels pretty well balanced. Really aren't many characters that feel definitively low tier. Majority of the cast feels like they are somewhere between b and d tier, and I could see some b tier characters being used as counter picks against higher tier characters. On the top tier side of things no characters seems too oppressive yet, but inkling feels the best right now.

 

[CovertGhoul]

ROB has the best tournament placings in the results thread...
Inkling is second, Peach 3rd, Wolf 4th, then Chrom, Palutena, Ness, Richter, Fox, Sonic, Pokemon Trainer, Snake, Roy, Lucina, Yoshi, Pichu, Zero Suit Samus,
Olimar, Incineroar, Cloud, Mario, Sheik, Duck Hunt, King K. Rool, Donkey Kong, Zelda, Mega Man, Villager, Pit, Meta Knight, Ken, Link, Mr. GnW, Marth,
Bowser, Pikachu, Luigi, Robin, Mii Swordfighter, Isabelle, Pac-Man, Young Link, Captain Falcon, Bayonetta, Greninja, Ike, Simon, Ridley, Daisy, Samus, King D3, Little Mac, Ganondorf, Falco, Dr. Mario, Wii Fit, Ryu, Wario, Lucario, Bowser Jr,, Dark Samus, Corrin, Mii Brawler, Kirby, Lucas, Diddy Kong, Toon Link, Mewtwo, Jigglypuff, Rosalina, Mii Gunner, Ice Climber, Dark Pit, and Shulk.

Falco's air speed as you noted was always slow. It was slow in Melee, it was slow in Brawl, it was slow in Smash 4 even after the patch, and it's still slow in Ultimate.

It affects how he can combo, but with many of his moves launching at vertical or vertically diagonal angles, it's not that big of a deal. For example, Utilt and U-throw put his opponent above him, Dtilt puts his opponent up and in front of him and usually with a lot of hit stun because of how much damage and knockback it deals, Uair also puts his opponent above him and with his jump, he can quickly clear the distance between them for another follow-up if possible before the opponent drifts too far away from him, and Dair on grounded opponents pop them up for Falco similarly to Dtilt while on airborne opponents, they get spiked, Falco can possibly fast fall to reach them if they didn't get spiked to the lower blast zone. It's only really Nair, Fair, and D-throw that are outliers where Falco combos or strings horizontally.

Having good air speed would be nice, but given Falco's ability to combo and string things have been fine since Melee because of how his moves work together, it's not really necessary or that detrimental in my opinion. For neutral or disadvantage, however, yeah, his low air speed is an issue.


This isn't anything new because of what happened to Uair in 1.0.8 Smash 4 and in Ultimate. Uair does 1 less damage, 9%, compared to Brawl and 1.0.8 Smash 4 Uair and 2 less damage than launch Smash 4 Uair. If it has the same or similar knockback values to 1.0.8 Smash Uair, then it's going to be even weaker.

Brawl and launch Smash 4 Uair had 27 base and 100 growth and a hit angle of 68 degrees on the leg hitboxes and 30 base and 20 growth and a hit angle of 80 degrees on the body hitbox which existed since Melee because reasons. 1.0.8 changed the knockback values to 35 base and 90 growth and the hit angles to 65, 75, and 85 degrees for all hitboxes. The scaling is much worse where at early percents, it does enough knockback that it's useful for comboing and stringing moves together, but at later percents, it just misses the mark where it can kill reliably, especially with the furthest hitbox having a slightly worse hit angle than before the patch. This is in addition to its damage reduction to Brawl's damage and Ultimate took it even further by dropping it to 9%.

Ultimate Uair's knockback is unknown at the moment, however, but it's either the same or similar enough that it's the crappy 1.0.8 Uair considering how it's been working.

I hate 1.0.8 Uair. The only problem with Falco's Uair prior to the patch was that it still had the silly body hitbox from Melee. It being frame 10 wasn't that bad, but Smash 4 Falco's pre-1.0.8 Uair was both a combo tool and a kill move and that was absolutely freaking awesome. I'm guessing they wanted it to be faster, well, then that's what they should have done. Drop it to frame 7 from frame 10, drop its damage to 10% if they felt like it was too powerful, but they shouldn't have messed with its knockback values. What they did was try to give a Captain Falcon, Mario, and ZSS-like Uair on a character who has slow horizontal movement overall and on a move that's not a backflip where it hits front then behind, but a frontflip where it hits behind then front. If it was frame 4 like Pikachu's, then sure, but it's frame 7 as of 1.0.8 and by the time it hits in front of him, it's around frame 10 or 11 which is still slower than Captain Falcon's and ZSS's frame 6 Uairs or Mario's frame 4 Uair.


This is less of Falco's hop height problem and more of his hitboxes problem. According to this thread: https://smashboards.com/threads/lan...ead-training-mode-tested-all-76-chars.464174/, Falco's hop height is only 0.1 higher than Fox's where Fox's jump height is 3.7 stage units, a little higher than Mario's, to Falco's 4.8 stage units. Greninja's jump is 4.0 stage units, but Greninja's hop is 2.0 to Falco's 1.9. I think it has to do something with jump force and other stuff that determines how high a character jumps since Falco is a fast-faller, but his jump is consistently the highest in the games he appears in and without buffs like Shulk's Jump Art.

Anyway, the only aerial Falco has that reliably hits low is Dair for obvious reasons. Nair, Fair, and Bair hit linearly in front of him and Uair covers above him. Fair at least his body is parallel to the ground and it has a landing hit, but that's still not comparable to having an move that actually hits below him because the move is aimed at hitting below the character, arcs low enough like Ike's Fair, or hits and lingers in a way like Link's, Mario's, or Wolf's Nairs.


Falco's Bair is frame 9 on startup now, the same as Fox's and like Wolf's, its startup was doubled from the previous game. Falco's Bair going from frame 4 to frame 9 and Wolf's going from frame 6 to frame 13. Their Bairs are still stupid given how hard they hit; clean Bair for Falco and sweet-spotted Bair for Wolf. Fox would probably kill Falco for his Bair, Smash 4 or Ultimate.

Out of a jump or a hop, it's roughly the same speed as his old Bair due to his jump being frame 3 now instead of frame 5 in Melee or frame 6 in Brawl and Smash 4. In the air, however, it's average in speed.

Wolf and Fox have way better tournament results atm

 

[Emblem Lord]

https://twitter.com/TheSutho/status/1073539780036550657

Might be a big deal for anything character with great walks and good ground pokes.

Sooooooo...Marthlings?

 

[Yonder]

I think Sheik's future is going to be a hit and run character.

I'm not sure she has the tools to be much else. Her strings don't seem to be quite as effective anymore.

Sheik is weird. My friend,who was a Sheik man and has taken games of many PGR BC players as Sheik says that she "doesn't click' in this game and switched to Pit (an underrated as hell character atm...) Sheik isn't nearly as scary to fight anymore, whereas I hated fighting her the absolute most in 4 alongside Bayo and Rosa.

Dunno how much that statement is worth except that people shouldnt shove her in top tier right away just because she is Sheik.

I mean, Void dropped her for pichu, whp is imo, a better character with wicked frame data and serious kill power to boot (but imo can't be top due to weight/range... Pikachu sure will be though)

Edit: Just saw this compilation of results for tournaments this far and this is VERY interesting:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1x8GtQbT_5XkwzpKfGPfTcRNB5LV5vpI_BY2aDoJpopc/edit#gid=0

The character in first for overall results right now...is

Am i missing something? No one talks about this guy, all i know is that his d throw is amazing cause it's a bury that sets up for damage and kills like k rool's...other than that, seems like same old Rob. Someone enlighten me/thoughts on ROB's #1 results?

Im sure it'll change once we get a major, though.

 

[Modesty]

Edit: Just saw this compilation of results for tournaments this far and this is VERY interesting:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1x8GtQbT_5XkwzpKfGPfTcRNB5LV5vpI_BY2aDoJpopc/edit#gid=0

The character in first for overall results right now...is

Am i missing something? No one talks about this guy, all i know is that his d throw is amazing cause it's a bury that sets up for damage and kills like k rool's...other than that, seems like same old Rob. Someone enlighten me/thoughts on ROB's #1 results?

Im sure it'll change once we get a major, though.

ROB is my most played character now and I think he is really good. #1 results is probably a coincidence and I doubt it will last but I think he is high tier. I didn't play much smash 4 so idk much about him in that game, but he has a ton going for him in this game. He has amazing aerials giving him a great aerial combo game which is super valuable in ultimate and has solid edge guarding. Really good projectile game, and Downthrow above 80% combos into upair which kills pretty early. Side-b, down smash and up smash seem like decent kill options as well. His dash dance and speed are solid and his dash attack can lead into combos all while still being fairly heavy with a good recovery. I think there are quite a few characters that will be better than him, but I think he could be A tier. Overall just a well rounded character that benefits from the games engine.

 

[adom4]

Ridley
I'm finding success in the neutral comes spacing and frame trapping with fair, d-tilt and forward tilt. Mix in Nairs to stir the gravy.

With short hops, multiple jumps and the multi hit fair, you can control a decent amount of space in front of him and even slip in a cheeky down b (though its only for style. There are far safer ways to build damage and nothing seems guaranteed out of it).

If you want earlier kills, Side B comes into play once people start trying to shield your fairs. Sets up edge guards and kills at nice parents. Once their off stage, walling with fair is works and hitting with the most southern part of Nair knocks opponents at a devastating angle, pure horizontal knock back. You'll have to get out there for the nair though. If your opponents got a hit box on their up-b and within range of the ledge, you'll lose to them.

Nair'ing this way at the ledge also puts the opponent in a horrible position and is pure doom chrom like recoveries at high percents.

His recovery is super rigid, but he's heavy, can use side b straight away and has jumps to get by on. When edge guarding, up b diagonal backwards gives you a little height too. which I'm very thankful for.

His neutral B is, situational. Fun but not good. Wrecks chrom recoveries and builds damage on sleeping opponents but is not a neutral tool. Its not strong enough to justify the baked in counter play.

Nair seems better than up air in most scenarios and back air kills so that's good for the gravy too.

Overall, i'd say he's average. His kit is cohesive but not that flexible.

I got ninja'd hard, but I'm happy we mostly agree.

I think his fireballs are ridiculous and one of his best moves, they save so many MUs for him it's not even funny.
He can legit outcamp so many characters because charged fireballs beat almost every small projectile in the game, can't be reflected, can force jumps, are REALLY bad to shield because you give Ridley an approach and the endlag after the last fireball isn't that bad.
Offstage they murder almost every recovery in the game and with good spacing they go right over the ledge and can 2 frame.
I think camping with Ridley is potentially incredibly strong and will be his main thing against a lot of characters.

 

[Mister M]

I'm maining Wolf this game and I've arrived to similar conclusions. I disagree with nair only being "decent," because it's damn good and one of his most important tools. It's start-up is slower than Brawl but it's mostly compensated by his faster jumpsquat, making SH immediate nair only 1 frame slower than Brawl.

I was grinding wolf on characters like inklings, pichu and lucina. The nair is good but characters with range and mobility can get the jump on it. That said it's definitly a key move.

Do you have any links for the xandadu? I'd be keen to see.

 

[Browny]

I have a feeling a lot of people are playing Incineroar wrong because they aren't focusing on his strengths and choosing to lower his risk which comes with a disproportionately large reduction to his reward.

Counters have typically always been high risk, medium reward moves where it almost never worth throwing them out because its an unfavourable trade. Bayonetta is the only character to bring that reward up to high. But Incineroars counter is different, its high risk for insanely high reward to the point that its worth using.

The thing about Incineroar is his grabs are terrifying to the enemy so they will rarely stay in shield, instead they are going to throw out hitboxes far more often than if they were against a character like the belmonts. Incineroars very nature is going to condition the enemy to play more aggressive. This is distinctly different to the usual characters with counters in the FE characters because their grabs are usually plain awful, so the opponent can sit in shield more safely.

An Incineroar who doesnt use revenge, is basically telling the enemy that they weren't planning on using many throws this match, so spam hitboxes all you want, you can even superglue your shield buttons so they are stuck open so you'll be even safer vs him. You can't be a 'grappler' while giving the enemy free reign to throw out as many hitboxes as possible, you have to scare them into shield and you sure as hell aren't going to be doing that while never using the single best move to do it.

Some counters are obviously better than others. Marths being quite poor, then Ikes able to kill and Bayonettas being ridiculous. Incineroars is arguably better than Corrins but, and this is a big thing here, we can't measure it by how much reward you can possibly get off it (which is where people are very, very wrong), we must measure it by how differently the enemy plays around you when they know you are prepared to use it. Think of Samus vs G&W, in a matchup where the G&W never uses bucket because they are petrified of super missles vs a G&W who is always ready to bucket charge shot. They are wildly different, the Samus player is going to do far better vs the G&W that is more afraid as they can use charge shot for KOs. An Incineroar playing against someone who second guesses their KO reads or edgeguard attempts, is an Incineroar who is going to live longer and KO earlier.

To me, not using Revenge is akin to not using something like k.rools crown. Just because something is risky, doesn't mean you give the enemy free reign to do what they want without requiring them to take any risks themselves. Of course its still a high risk move but if you are playing a high risk, high reward character and you decide to lower the risk to lower the reward by a disproportionately large amount, then what the hell are you doing, go and main Mario or something and never try to go for high upb kills.

 

[trickroom]

As someone who spent a lot of time thinking about ROB's metagame position in Sm4sh, I'll weigh in with some pessimism on ROB's results right now. ROB is always good early in a smash game's life, because the spammable projectiles, easy kill moves, and shorthop nair are hard for everyone to deal with when no one is good at the new shield options and the new neutral game. Not only that, but when people are clumsy and unoptimized with their juggles and advantage state, ROB can get out of jail free when he's juggled right now, when he really shouldn't. The same goes for edgeguarding too: people still don't know how deep they can go to hit recovering characters, so ROB's easy-to-edgeguard recovery isn't getting exploited like it should.

As the playerbase gets better at aggression, edgeguards, and parrying, expect ROB's viability to go down.

 

[DJ3DS]

Edit: Just saw this compilation of results for tournaments this far and this is VERY interesting:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1x8GtQbT_5XkwzpKfGPfTcRNB5LV5vpI_BY2aDoJpopc/edit#gid=0

The character in first for overall results right now...is

Am i missing something? No one talks about this guy, all i know is that his d throw is amazing cause it's a bury that sets up for damage and kills like k rool's...other than that, seems like same old Rob. Someone enlighten me/thoughts on ROB's #1 results?

Im sure it'll change once we get a major, though.

Hi! ROB main here. Let me enlighten you.

The good:
1) ROB really benefits from the new mechanics. He rarely airdodges during recovery anyway, and when he does he can still recover from anywhere (seriously, his recovery is the best in the game by distance. He can fly the entire length of the training stage from left to right). The mechanics also make his edgeguarding substantially more potent as he can harass opponents offstage for free.
2) Side B has been buffed massively and is a really strong and potent edgeguard option.
3) lasers have been buffed - they now send the opponent away instead of up, making them really good at edgeguarding.
4) you can sometimes cheese from down throw.

The bad:
1) Down Throw - I'm serious. You can mash out of down throw up smash at absurd percentages and almost every ROB would rather his old down throw back.
2) Up Throw - nerfed knockback again, ROB doesn't have a kill throw anymore.
3) Invincibility on getup attack makes his old ledge traps much more inconsistent.
4) Up Smash hitbox has changed in some way that makes it less consistent.

ROB is doing strong because the mechanics afford him a better disadvantage and people haven't optimised his advantage yet. He is not a top tier character as outside of edgeguarding he struggles to kill already, without people being used to the down throw yet.

If he were buffed to give him his old kill options back whilst retaining all his current strengths? Then I still don't think he'd be close to the best but we could talk.

 

[Game7a1]

Think of Samus vs G&W, in a matchup where the G&W never uses bucket because they are petrified of super missles vs a G&W who is always ready to bucket charge shot. They are wildly different, the Samus player is going to do far better vs the G&W that is more afraid as they can use charge shot for KOs.

I would agree with this analogy if the matchup was talking about a different Smash game. Now that G&W's bucket can be an absorber and reflector, he doesn't have to fear Super Missles since he can just reflect him.
The main thing he has to fear is losing the ability to reflect once his bucket is full, regardless of how potent Oil Panic is. Because now Samus can zone him out to prevent him from attacking her with Oil Panic. He gains a very powerful offensive option (much like Incineroar's Revenge), but he loses the ability to counter-zone (something Incineroar doesn't really lose since he can still use Revenge again). That's, I think, a similar second guessing you were warning about for Incineroar.

 

[Browny]

I would agree with this analogy if the matchup was talking about a different Smash game. Now that G&W's bucket can be an absorber and reflector, he doesn't have to fear Super Missles since he can just reflect him.
The main thing he has to fear is losing the ability to reflect once his bucket is full, regardless of how potent Oil Panic is. Because now Samus can zone him out to prevent him from attacking her with Oil Panic. He gains a very powerful offensive option (much like Incineroar's Revenge), but he loses the ability to counter-zone (something Incineroar doesn't really lose since he can still use Revenge again). That's, I think, a similar second guessing you were warning about for Incineroar.

Lol I didn't know that about G&W, that certainly does change things.

 

[Rizen]

Here are my high tier sleeper picks:

Ness: His combos are really good, he's quick and has relatively good disjointed hitbubbles. PK thunder is harder to avoid with the new ADs and they help him dodge to the ledge instead of PKTing close to the stage. PK fire seems to work better in this engine; it's more spammable but you can escape easily. He maintains his strengths from previous games like Bthrow killing at good %s.

Pokemon Trainer: Switch has invulnerability and acts like Shulk's art change. Switching pokemon gets around individual pokemon's weaknesses and keeps them unpredictable. Each of the pokemon are good. Squirtle's quick, his squirt seems to push more, he has an armored side B (I think) and decent kill power. Ive can do things like combo leaf blade to upB and has enough disjoint to be hard to get in on. Charizard has the best recovery to make up for Ivy's, it seems more mobile than before and can switch to squirtle to help its disadvantage state.

 

[**Gilgamesh**]

Rob new down-throw is atrocious. Saw Ally Snake able to mash out at percents greater than 110% vs Holy [R.O.B] main. It's okay but nowhere near as good as Inklings or even K.Rool's. His old down-throw is way better since it was a 50/50 kill confirm along with damage racking at low percents IMO. R.O.B is probably doing really well due to people not knowing how to parry atm. However both MuteAce and Samsora (both peach mains and Samsora has consistently beaten 8Bitman to the point of him switching off R.O.B) has beaten R.O.B players mainly due to his off-stage disadvantage game being mediocre which Peach can exploit heavily with her absurd advantage state with turnips. I believe R.O.B will be in a better state then he was in Smash 4 thanks to the new mechanics but will be held back by an exploitable disadvantage state as showcased in the Peach vs R.O.B MU.

Lowkey: Peach is a Top Tier in this game and in some cases only need 1 opening in neutral at low percents to get 50%-80% on the opponent along with Turnips being incredibly good.

 

[Modesty]

Rob new down-throw is atrocious. Saw Ally Snake able to mash out at percents greater than 110% vs Holy [R.O.B] main. It's okay but nowhere near as good as Inklings or even K.Rool's. His old down-throw is way better since it was a 50/50 kill confirm along with damage racking at low percents IMO. R.O.B is probably doing really well due to people not knowing how to parry atm. However both MuteAce and Samsora (both peach mains and Samsora has consistently beaten 8Bitman to the point of him switching off R.O.B) has beaten R.O.B players mainly due to his off-stage disadvantage game being mediocre which Peach can exploit heavily with her absurd advantage state with turnips. I believe R.O.B will be in a better state then he was in Smash 4 thanks to the new mechanics but will be held back by an exploitable disadvantage state as showcased in the Peach vs R.O.B MU.

Lowkey: Peach is a Top Tier in this game and in some cases only need 1 opening in neutral at low percents to get 50%-80% on the opponent along with Turnips being incredibly good.

I agree that Peach is a rough match up for ROB but it's too early in the game to say Peach will invalidate him. Also I don't think anyone is sleeping on Peach, seems like a pretty common opinion among top players she is top tier. Though I think the biggest thing with ROB that makes him strong in this game isn't that he is buffed from last game as much as he benefits a lot of the new game mechanics which I think really rewards how he plays.

 

[Iridium]

More thoughts on , but more specific:

Spoiler: Long post incoming...

N-air is actually really, really good. The frame 3 jumpsquat really means a lot here, because with his n-air being frame 6, it obviously comes out quicker, and is more safe on shield, and holding a Remote Bomb in his hand can be used to trap the opponent.

Faster mobility: his run speed jumped from exactly 1.3944 to 1.534, which I can take. But his initial dash, dear Hylia. Jumped from an unimpressive 1.3 (3rd slowest in Smash 4, excluding Miis) to a very respectable 1.98, being closer to the middle of the cast. That is higher than literally everyone in Smash 4 except Little Mac (2.05). Air speed jumped to 0.924, which we might as well take, and the point is clear. But I'm saying that his short range game might actually be scary with that initial dash essentially making him faster than Inkling's run speed (not initial dash), but don't take this part too seriously. Also, he's faster than Ike now, LOL.

Recovery, I'll wait before I finalize my opinion on. But I will say that bomb recovery could be a viable replacement for his tether, but we'll have to see. It covers a lot of distance if done right, but that's if you do it right. We'll have to make sure we're positioned so that the bomb doesn't either blow up and not hit us, or do hit, but launch us the other way or KO us. Not gonna lie, I do feel like a bigger air speed buff could be something he would love, especially after the harsh nerf he got to it in Brawl (1 → 0.8084).

KO power never was a big problem for us then, and it still isn't now. F-air still seems to kill very early, maybe earlier, although damage for the individual hits were nerfed. I guess that doesn't matter, as because both hits connect whenever the first one reaches, we will get more on average. F-tilt looks somewhat scary, with the increased range it has, still being strong, but it's still punishable if not spaced well. Honestly, yeah, this area hasn't changed too much for him.

Spacing is where we also thrive. A longer sword means a longer disjoint, so that's always a plus, and could help him against other swordies too. Boomerang goes even farther now, and has a returning hitbox again, which can interrupt enemies approaching Link, and even start follow-ups, most notably u-tilt or u-smash. Arrows go farther when uncharged, so that's cool, and still goes very far when fully charged, still covering more than entire stages, although just a bit slower (not too much). What gets me excited for them is how they cannot be airdodged for free now, as now that is a hard commitment, and maybe we'll be able to get n-airs offstage to further capitalize on that.

Remote Bombs are pretty much the most talked about projectile of Link's and that's reasonable. The knockback got a significant increase from Smash 4, they can still combo into other moves and finish them, and the hitbox is bigger. Even approaching shield with them works when the opponent has to worry about when you will detonate it, and it makes Link feel more like a trap-based character. The main problem with this is simply that when collected by an opponent, Link can't get another one. I guess technically, most opponents won't find too much out of it, as they can only throw it away, but edgeguards. against him with it could be a thing. Villager and Isabelle may be the bane of our existence with Pocket, as they can take the Remote Bomb and keep it forever, pretty much. Not sure if we get a new one if we lose a stock, but we'll see.

Landing perhaps may be easier for Link this time, and Remote Bombs, whether in hand or not, can be used to control at least some of the space around where he might land. D-air seems to have more range, which should be good coupled with the huge landing lag reduction it got, but he might still be able to be hit from the sides, so this depends. N-air still is pretty quick and reliable, even with most trades.

OoS options still exist with Spin Attack, and that's not bad, but perhaps a quicker jab would be nice as a "get off me" tool. Maybe n-air, but grounded options could still work.

Disadvantages honestly appear to be the same as Smash 4. He most likely might suffer to characters that are significantly faster than him, like Sonic for example, especially if he cannot set up the traps he needs to start combos or keep them away in the first place. He also might be combo food, but he didn't get heavier, so yeah, that might be the same, and his endurance as a result too. Recovery, if he cannot use his bomb recovery in the given situation, might also be a terrible weakness, but is the most easiest one to factor, to me. I'd say OoS options maybe, but that doesn't hinder him as much as some others things I mentioned.

All in all, Link plays faster, has godlike aerials, kill power, and edgeguarding capabilities, but still may struggle to faster characters or anyone who can get past his spacing methods, and his recovery could most definitely be even more reliant on bombs now (more neutral than weakness/benefit). Basically, just keep the opponent away, or tear them up with the improved disjoints (but safely) and Link should have not much of a problem, but we just have to be methodical, yet conservative.

We even have some good players showing off his skill at tourneys and events. Salem, Bernie (from Mexico), and Otakuni. I expect more notable representation soon, but our results are in a pretty good spot, I'd say.

I'll just say that my thoughts may change, and I wasn't too confident about everything I said, but the gist hasn't changed, however. Seriously, don't took this all as just the reality.

...And here are my updated thoughts on .

Spoiler: Another long post incoming...

First off, d-throw combos definitely still exist for Link (mostly at low to mid %s), which makes me happy. U-tilt, from what I've seen as well, does hit in front, pretty evenly with from behind, when he is close enough to the opponent. I still think that will make it somewhat useful against rolls, and obviously combos still.

What I don't get is why his jab got nerfed. If I'm getting this correctly, his jab is now frame 8. Hoping this isn't completely true or anything, but it probably is. It's one of his best "get off me" tools for him, so I do think he wouldn't like a slower jab at all. Otherwise it is unchanged, and still has the same purpose.

I confused Link's mobility a bit back then. As in, I may have exaggerated the effect of Link's initial dash speed, which is why in that post, I said I wasn't confident with everything I would say. I still do think this will benefit him somehow; maybe through dash-dancing? All in all, I just love how much more nimble he feels, even if he is at a disadvantage compared to most of the cast.

Drag-down f-air is probably the most interesting thing I've seen, in terms of confirms. It is possible to do it out of a full or short hop near the ground, and maybe we can optimize grab punishes out of that, as long as Link has the ability to act first. I also appreciate how much earlier f-air seems to kill, and more damage on average is definitely a plus.

Remote Bomb shenanigans are actually insane. The fact that we can play around our opponent's shield and re-catch it with almost aerial to keep it going can allows for crazy combos as well (check out the Link Discord on Twitter for some highlighted clips). Even being able to move it around with pretty much any attack that hits it is pretty nice, and can make for some unique combos (I've mentioned them a lot, haven't I?) in addition to edgeguards. Increased KO power can be a curse and a blessing. On one hand, he has something else to finish off his opponents, yet he can also SD by detonation on the other. The other weaknesses I can see is opponents holding onto the bomb to keep him from pulling out another, especially when he wants to make more space or recover, so I guess we have to be careful.

Boomerangs honestly are just going to be better than in Smash 4. Sure the Gale Boomerang could be used to pull opponents in and perhaps pull off edgeguarding tricks (Gale Guarding) in addition to just damage, but sometimes, it wws just useless when returning, and could not interrupt opponents with a returning hitbox like in Melee, for example. Now, it's more like Melee's again, and goes even farther, which can have useful applications offstage, and keep opponents away on stage. More damage too hasn't hurt either.

Spin Attack gives me somewhat mixed feelings, sort of carrying over from Smash 4. As a recovery tool, it's kinda meh on its own, and I don't why the distance had to be touched, although not by too much. On the ground, it is still a decent OoS option, coming out decently quick, and having decent knockback to boot. In the air, however, it seems to work even better as a KO tool as well, with excellent knockback and an angle more like a semi-spike.

Also, one additional, but rather impractical thing that can be done with it is a rather Melee-esque bomb recovery. Because the Remote Bomb has HP (60, to be exact), if you rack enough damage on the ground (maybe around 45 perhaps?), you can z-drop the bomb after airdodging and Spin Attack the bomb to blow it up and get another Spin Attack. Again, though, this is not that easy, and can easily go wrong instead, so don't expect to see this too much in competitive play.

Link's aerials deserve to be as gopd as they are right now. N-air works as a really great landing tool, can start and finish combos, and is his quickest aerial (tied with b-air, at 6 frames; almost as many frames as a hard landing). B-air can still be used to chain into itself, and b-air 1 still can be used to start kill confirms, into smash attacks, Spin Attacks, and other things. U-air still is great at juggling, and can deal with airdodges fairly well, with how lang it lasts, which goes great with less landing and how low they can be performed (boosted by frame 3 jumpsquat). D-air got huge buffs too, going from 32 to 19 frames, and autocancels easier, retaining the ability to combo itself and its range, aiding his landing options. Overall, these do suit him well for applying pressure on his opponents and staying safe. I already talked about f-air earlier, just so we're aware on that.

However, he still has weaknesses that could bother him greatly in the long run. Speedier characters might be very problematic for him, such as and , as they have next to no issue getting in his personal space and making it difficult to set up the traps he looks for. Recovery also is an iffy area, specifically when bombs cannot save him or be utilized in the first place or if he has no jump to help him either. He could still very well be combo food, but in Ultimate, there is a lot more characters who can say they are heavier, like , although that may change nothing for him anyway.

For him, Link is doing best when he can keep the opponent stuck in his traps, and his spacing is good enough so as to not be punishable. Careful recoveries should also be advised, as it is important to mix them up to not make them ones that can be telegraphed.

Again, I could be wrong on some things, but this only how I see Link's position so far, so my thoughts can still change when his meta does.

 

[Rizen]

Is punishing ledge getups harder in this game (or is it just me)?

Agreed, Peach seems good.

However, he still has weaknesses that could bother him greatly in the long run. Speedier characters might be very problematic for him, such as and , as they have next to no issue getting in his personal space and making it difficult to set up the traps he looks for. Recovery also is an iffy area, specifically when bombs cannot save him or be utilized in the first place or if he has no jump to help him either. He could still very well be combo food, but in Ultimate, there is a lot more characters who can say they are heavier, like , although that may change nothing for him anyway.

For him, Link is doing best when he can keep the opponent stuck in his traps, and his spacing is good enough so as to not be punishable. Careful recoveries should also be advised, as it is important to mix them up to not make them ones that can be telegraphed.
[/SPOILER]

Again, I could be wrong on some things, but this only how I see Link's position so far, so my thoughts can still change when his meta does.

This is what I've been saying about Link; he gets out buttoned. Frame data nerfs, not just jab, on an already slow character really sucked. Link did get some good buffs but his primary problems are still as present as ever. IMO remote bombs are good but still a nerf compared to normal bombs. Link has too much going for him to be low tier but too much against him to be better than mid tier.

Also IMO the airdodge changes hurt him. Link has a lot of lingering or multihit frame trap moves that air dodging away gets around.

 

[KakuCP9]

IIRC that the invincibility of get up attack only lasts until the hitbox ends while the recovery is still vulnerable and neutral getup still has the 1 frame vulnerability near the end. The main thing is that now you can't just throw a weak lingering attack cause get up attack will beat it (which is how you beat neutral getup) so the two options now complement each other rather than get up attack being strictly worse than neutral getup. Still with new mobility changes, many characters can orient themselves to cover all ledge options while avoiding most ledge drop aerials so ledgetraping will probably still be important as Smash 4 since directional air-dodge to the ledge can be difficult to stop giving even someone like Chrom a decent recovery option.

 

[Nobie]

I don't know if anyone's pointed this out in any of the threads, but Mega Man's Rush Coil no longer induces lag upon landing. How big a deal this is remains to be seen.

 

[DJ3DS]

Rob new down-throw is atrocious. Saw Ally Snake able to mash out at percents greater than 110% vs Holy [R.O.B] main. It's okay but nowhere near as good as Inklings or even K.Rool's. His old down-throw is way better since it was a 50/50 kill confirm along with damage racking at low percents IMO. R.O.B is probably doing really well due to people not knowing how to parry atm. However both MuteAce and Samsora (both peach mains and Samsora has consistently beaten 8Bitman to the point of him switching off R.O.B) has beaten R.O.B players mainly due to his off-stage disadvantage game being mediocre which Peach can exploit heavily with her absurd advantage state with turnips. I believe R.O.B will be in a better state then he was in Smash 4 thanks to the new mechanics but will be held back by an exploitable disadvantage state as showcased in the Peach vs R.O.B MU.

Lowkey: Peach is a Top Tier in this game and in some cases only need 1 opening in neutral at low percents to get 50%-80% on the opponent along with Turnips being incredibly good.

My one issue with this is that ROB doesn't have mediocre offstage disadvantage. His Up B effectively affords him 7 additional midair jumps, he can double jump and even airdodge out of it. ROBs disadvantage offstage is actually objectively stronger than before (he never used to be able to airdodge or double jump out of up special, and he has extra fuel) and relatively it is much stronger this game due to the mechanics.

His main issues in disadvantage stem from being easily comboed and struggling to get off of the ledge.

Also, regarding his down throw, I just want to point out that that is nothing special about Ally doing the mashing. I've missed down throw up smash repeatedly at 130 online. If you want a kill confirm out of it you can down throw up air, which catches mashing but can be avoided by not mashing, so at higher levels down throw is still a 50/50, but at later times than before.

 

[J0eyboi]

I'm gonna echo the sentiment that Pit is massively slept on. He's had basically all his issues fixed, got some extra stuff on top of that, and benefits a lot from the engine.

For starters, Pit can kill now. He's still not great at it, but he can actually kill. His dash attack is now a kill move, Fair can kill, Uair can kill, Dair's sweetspot is larger and actually does something, and he still has all his smash attacks, which now feel like they work a lot better. On its own, this would already be great for him; his lack of kill power was a huge issue in Smash 4. But that's not all. He's now in a game where airdodges are limited, which means arrows (which had their endlag reduced too) are an actual threat offstage and might gimp someone sometime.

Another issue for Smash 4 Pit was his bad ground game. He had no safe grounded pokes, and got basically nothing off of hitting with most of his ground moves either. Both of these issues have been remedied. As far as safe pokes go, Dtilt got 6 frames of endlag shaved off, which combined with the shield changes, makes it a much safer move to throw out. It also feels like it has more range but don't quote me on that. For reward, Dtilt got its angle altered, so that it pops opponents up rather than up and away. This allows you to follow up with basically any aerial your heart desires, which is much better than its previous 0 followups. Utilt was also upgraded, going from ****ty upsmash to a move you might actually use sometime. It did lose one of its hits, now being a 2-hit move instead of 3, but the 8 frames of endlag it lost more than make up for it, allowing for actual followups off of it.

We can't forget the engine changes either. Pit loves his opponents having limited airdodges, while not really minding himself thanks to his multiple jumps. He also got some of the largest landing lag reductions of any character, taking his landing lag from depressingly bad to solidly usable. Unlike many characters, he kept his throw combos, and the ability to do anything out of a dash synergizes very well with his improved ground moves.

In all, Pit has a much better advantage state, a significantly better neutral, does more damage, kills earlier, and still has one of the stronger disadvantage states in the game. Is he top tier? I don't know. We'll have to wait and see, but he's clearly very strong and tied with Greninja for my pick of the most slept on character right now.

 

[Rizen]

Dark Pit (and the dumb Reset Bomb forest) game me some trouble when trying to unlock him. I can see how Pit's better.

One thing I forgot to mention about the Links is boomerang is great for recovering. It blocks attacks at various angles and YL can combo it into upB from offstage.

 

[Gérard Majax]

Looking at Big D vs Captain L (playing pichu), seems to have improved a lot from the past game. Nair has virtually no lag on landing and combos into stuff, uthrow uair for 30% at low/mid %, some low% combos, bair is way faster and safer, inhale is actually usable now (pretty cute against projectiles, does it make the belmont's match up playable?). Definitely not a top tier or anything (Big D lost a game and switched to peach lol), but at least he looks playable, even against a fast/combo heavy char like pichu, who would have eaten him alive in 4.

has some pretty stupid (true?) combos, like uair to dair or uair to thunder (lot of stuff seems to string into thunder actually). Still dies in 3 hit though, and his neutral game looks pretty average overall. Being fast and small is a +, but he stills relies on getting in "fairly" (doesn't have a "I win neutral" button like s4 diddy/cloud/m2, or "I have a bazilion options which are all better than yours" like s4 sheik). Thunder jolt helps a bit, but it's not exactly the greatest projectile and you take damage using it (Captain L took like 10% from his jolts in some stocks). Kinda volatile overall, and probably exhausting to solo main in a long tournament.

 

[Modesty]

Yeah I think Dedede's biggest problem in this game is there are just so many hitters lol. I feel like he is on the lowish mid tier just by virtue of so many characters being good.

 

[Krysco]

I've used both Pits a good bit (Dark Pit was the first character I unlocked Elite Smash with for whatever that's worth). Did a pretty long 1v1 BF session with a G&W player and learned quite a few things about both characters. I won't repeat what has already been said about the Pits but I will mention some things I've noticed from playing that haven't been mentioned yet.

A huge issue I personally had with the Pits in Sm4sh was that they basically had no safe landing aerials. Nair, uair and fair all required precise timing to get the final hit or else your opponent was going nowhere while you sat in 20/24 frames of landing lag, dair required getting anything but the sweetspot since spikes were techable on the ground, none of his specials helped with landing except for Orbitars if you predicted a laggy attack and then bair was the only really usable option. In Ultimate though, nair and fair if I'm remembering correctly both pop the opponent out if you land midway through the move which along with the reduced landing lag, make them safer. I was even able to get I think landing nair into tipper ftilt for a kill at one point. Speaking of which, that was with Dark Pit which means they altered his ftilt since in Sm4sh, it had lower knockback than Pit's tipper. Uair is interesting vs characters with disjointed dairs like G&W. Any time I tried to challenge it head on, I either got beat outright or the trade was awful but if I spaced it so he was always diagonally above me, I beat his dair straight up.

As for G&W, this is experience from fighting him rather than being him but fair is basically another dair. The bomb disappears without any hitbox upon getting hit at all so you can't trade with it at all. Dash attack goes through shield and seemed safe although I may just be bad at punishing it. Fsmash and especially dtilt change his hurtbox greatly. There was at least 3 times I went to grab him from behind and he dtilted away from me and my grab whiffed. Oh and dtilt kills. The ledge sweetspot for Fire seems less generous since the guy kept using it from a distance that would have snapped in Sm4sh but kept going above the ledge. He would then try to fade back to ledge while covering himself with a fair and he passed the ledge everytime so if you go past ledge with Fire, you're pretty much restricted to drifting back to ledge with or without the parachute or just trying to land on stage, with or without a hitbox covering you. Doesn't seem to have any combo throws aside from maybe dthrow to Fire. There's hardly any lag on Bucket whether you get a projectile or not. Other moves have either been mentioned already I believe or I can't comment on them since I didn't see much use or there's just not much to say.

Definitely looking forward to using Pit in this game with his changes and with how arrows work so well against the new air dodges.

---

Separate thought but is glide tossing in this game? I tried the roll cancelled version and got it but it hardly moved me anywhere and I haven't been able to pull off the jump cancelled version at all. Shouldn't matter too much since you can cancel a dash into any kind of toss but it does mean you lose that sudden burst of speed that glide tossing offered before.

 

[MapleBeasts]

I don't know if anyone's pointed this out in any of the threads, but Mega Man's Rush Coil no longer induces lag upon landing. How big a deal this is remains to be seen.

It's a nice little change but he still feels like he will struggle. His specials aside from metal blade are terrible. They nerfed leaf shield (lol) so that it auto throws. He can no longer do the leafshield footstool shenanigans from Sm4sh. His smash attacks and tilts still have really rough ending lag. Dair still takes an eternity to start up. The best change they made for him this game imo was that fair now kills at reasonable percentages and thus is a better edgeguarding tool. Lemons are also still a nice spacing tool.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

Maybe it's just me but I'm watching these snake players and he's looking like the best in the game. Maybe it's ptsd from brawl and I know how ridiculous chrom and inkling are. But snake just seems ridiculous. A lot of the stuff that used to gatekeep him doesn't exist there's no chain grabs MK isn't broken Marth isn't as good. I think snake is going to be very potent in this game and will be very hard to stop.

 

[Yonder]

Maybe it's just me but I'm watching these snake players and he's looking like the best in the game. Maybe it's ptsd from brawl and I know how ridiculous chrom and inkling are. But snake just seems ridiculous. A lot of the stuff that used to gatekeep him doesn't exist there's no chain grabs MK isn't broken Marth isn't as good. I think snake is going to be very potent in this game and will be very hard to stop.

Snake (MVD) just won a major, Don't Park on the Grass in Seattle today also solo over Esam's Pikachu. People are underrating him hard (Leffin put him in e tier,what?) He's still a...solid Snake. Up tilt is still insanely good. It's just gonna take a creative mind (like MVD showed) to maximize Snake.

Is he is the best? Too early to say. Olimar also got first (Shuton) today in a 700+ Japanese event. He's been talked about as the best. Then you got contenders like Peach, Chrom (who i bet will fall with time), Pikachu, Diddy (who atm has bottom 10 results in ultimate lmao.)

He'll be really good though.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

Snake (MVD) just won a major, Don't Park on the Grass in Seattle today also solo over Esam's Pikachu. People are underrating him hard (Leffin put him in e tier,what?) He's still a...solid Snake. Up tilt is still insanely good. It's just gonna take a creative mind (like MVD showed) to maximize Snake.

Is he is the best? Too early to say. Olimar also got first (Shuton) today in a 700+ Japanese event. He's been talked about as the best. Then you got contenders like Peach, Chrom (who i bet will fall with time), Pikachu, Diddy (who atm has bottom 10 results in ultimate lmao.)

He'll be really good though.

I could be wrong but I don't believe that leffen played brawl. So I don't believe he understands snake too well. He keeps saying this is an offensive game but I believe he's underrating some things. I've been watching a lot of the olimars and they seem to be putting in work I missed that Japanese tournament though. I think the characters from old games that are making their way back seem to be pretty strong. They didn't go through the smash 4 meta and don't have the complaints other characters did heading into ultimate.

 

[Browny]

Snake has always been a case of how long the player can keep up his gameplay before getting tired. Putting that much effort into the endless projectiles and attempted grenade/nikita combos will take a toll on someone mentally if playing for like 8 hours, only those who can actually go that long without getting tired will do well and its not something many people can do.

 

[Nobie]

Comparing Ally's Snake to MVD's Snake is really cool. Ally is a lot less projectile-heavy, and seems to use them to force the opponent into uncomfortable CQC situations. MVD focuses more on heavy zoning and keepaway and making opponent try to get through his barrage. The fact that such polar opposite strategies both seem to be working bodes well for the character.

 

[Modesty]

I could be wrong but I don't believe that leffen played brawl. So I don't believe he understands snake too well. He keeps saying this is an offensive game but I believe he's underrating some things. I've been watching a lot of the olimars and they seem to be putting in work I missed that Japanese tournament though. I think the characters from old games that are making their way back seem to be pretty strong. They didn't go through the smash 4 meta and don't have the complaints other characters did heading into ultimate.

Leffen's argument was basically that the game was too fast for snake to work the way he did in brawl and thought that Snake's very high landing lag would be too much for him to be good. While I think he's super wrong putting him low tier I think he does have a point and think Snake might fall off in the future. He also underrates Olimar too so I think you have a point with him underrating campier characters. I think Olimar is good, maybe top tier but probably not the best overall. I personally think Inkling is best right now.

 

[**Gilgamesh**]

I will just say that Snake Up-tilt is the great equalizer between rushdown characters such as pika etc. Having a consistent kill option at 100%ish is really good for him that can be out of a dash. Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't Snake Up-Tilt the strongest in the game? Snake definitely will give anyone who isn't actively thinking about his projectiles a hard time.

Edit: Completely forgot about Ganon and Mega-Man.

 

[J0eyboi]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't Snake Up-Tilt the strongest in the game?

...You do realize that both Ganon and Mega Man are characters in this game, right?

 

[Kellojolly]

Snake (MVD) just won a major, Don't Park on the Grass in Seattle today also solo over Esam's Pikachu. People are underrating him hard (Leffin put him in e tier,what?) He's still a...solid Snake. Up tilt is still insanely good. It's just gonna take a creative mind (like MVD showed) to maximize Snake.

Is he is the best? Too early to say. Olimar also got first (Shuton) today in a 700+ Japanese event. He's been talked about as the best. Then you got contenders like Peach, Chrom (who i bet will fall with time), Pikachu, Diddy (who atm has bottom 10 results in ultimate lmao.)

He'll be really good though.

Agreed. Snake is still a great character but today's showing may have been due to MVD's ability as a player. I still have no idea on what to feel about Olimar. As for Chrom, I am rather conflicted. I guess one scenario that I can see is the decline of Chrom's competitive viability largely due to people adjusting to his weakness and exploiting it. At that point, I would assume the rise of Roy, Lucina, or Marth will happen (most likely the former two as I believe Marth is the lesser of the three).

Side note: Correct me if I am wrong, but I don't believe I really saw too many FE swordsmen in today's major (Don't Park on the Grass). I find that rather odd, especially in the lack of Strong Chrom presence...which I assumed would've happened today in the major. Maybe the competitors simply dislike Chrom's rather poor off-stage capabilities already...which I hard to believe since he was being hyped up by some pros.