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I believe that type of thinking is wrong though. Snake isn't a character that should be judged on his aerial landing lag. Even though his dair seems weirdly good.
Snake is a tough character to place because he requires so much set up to succeed, personally I think once the meta is more fleshed out it will be more difficult for him to do that. Historically characters with frame data like Snake's have a pretty poor track record in smash, so I really hesitate to think he will be top tier. I'm not saying he's bad per se but I don't really see a lot of upward trend with this character. I just think the game engine works too much in the favor of dash heavy characters with fast aerials who will likely be able to stop him from setting up.
I think Chrom is really solid but him and other FE swordies are likely going to improve over time rather than be early tourney staples. They are likely to see better results when people have better match up knowledge and people are making use of new tech more. They all are just characters I feel don't have oppressive kits but rather will thrive in the new environment. A lot of the characters that placed high at DPOTG where those that have gimmicks for lack of a better word. Not that they are necessarily gimmick characters that won't be good in the future, but that they used strategies that won't get the same amount of mileage a year from now when people have a proper understanding of the game, the same way that Chrom's skill set is just pretty much universally good.
I am just not sure how Chrom will be in the future with his off stage capabilities. At the moment, I understand he's very powerful. But I'm not sure as to how long that will last. For now, I'm just going to say I can see Roy in particular taking his place with a more aggressive play style (for obvious reasons) and better off-stage plays. Of course, I could be very wrong. I have not played with Marth or Lucina too much in Ultimate so I don't quite know their viability too intimately. But I can say Roy feels immensely strong (albeit less consistent than Chrom but isn't as matchup dependent).
Yeah Chrom's recovery is definitely a big liability in a game where so many characters have great recoveries. I think he has enough tools to still be top tier though, just probably not at the very top of the tier list. Roy is right up there with him, and I could see people dual maining Chrom and Roy for match up spread tbh. Lucina and especially Marth feel worse but still are fast with great aerial juggles and more and more dash tech seems to be coming out that will benefit this character archetype so strong chance they are high tiers.
I can see that as well. For now, my general assessment is that Chrom is very strong but I can see people leaning towards Roy in future in tournaments mainly because of better recovery even with less offensive consistency. Lucina and Marth, I still have no clue about. I have heard top tier, I have heard high tier, I have also heard them belonging in somewhere in-between. For now, I'm sticking with testing out Chrom and Roy (along my mains lol). Either wya, I can definitely see the meta turning out to be as you said in regards to the aforementioned swordsmen.
Snake's frame data is weak where I think it will count though. While his jab and tilts are good, comparing them to Wolf's doesn't make sense as Wolf utilizes those moves differently than snake will. Generally what I think will be most important long term in the game is dash speed and aerials as is the case in most faster paced smash games. Again Snake could totally be an outlier to this (as there are in every game) because once he can set up he is incredibly strong, I'm just skeptical that he will be able to consistently setup his stuff in a game that will be this fast paced. I'm personally leaning towards him being high mid tier with maybe some strong counter-pick usage.
There just wasn't a lot of rep. None of the good Roys, Chroms, Marths, or Lucinas really showed up, presumably because they live half a continent or more away. There were a couple of Ikes in top 24 though.
Bless PK Thunder in this game. It's so good. You have to respect PKT1 more in this game and with the changes to airdodging you can often find up airs or other strong punishes if they airdodge around PKT near the top of the screen. And of course you can still trap airdodges into PKT2 like this!
Hallowed be thy nades.I'm surprised nobody has mentioned how bad Snake's disadvantage is.
I'm not really sure I follow what you're saying but snake was considered one of the best characters in brawl for a very long time and I don't believe his frame data has changed. Snake is a ground based character that doesn't rely on aerials or dash speed to win. He controls the ground and makes you come to him. Obscene damage obscene KO power and the ability to live to ridiculously high percentages. Snake isn't the perfect character and does have counters but with the absence of MK Marth chaingrabs it's going to be rough dealing with him. Also since the stage list is hazards off you don't even get the chance to counter pick him like you did in brawl.
They'll buff her back up over time, as they will with a lot of characters, I'm sure.
Aside from D-tilt, Snake's range is subpar, nowhere near as good as what he had in Brawl. You are correct about his neutral being fast though. D-tilt in particular I find is very useful when playing the poking game. D-air coming out on frame 3 is useful as well particularly as an out of shield/parry punish.
Only time will tell, but I do agree and predict the same outcome of Snake having difficulty as players get used to him (I'm noting most competitors did not play Brawl).
In Brawl being slow was way more acceptable than it will be in Ultimate. Movement options were super limited so a character like Snake was better. I was saying characters who have fast dash speed and strong aerials are generally strong in Smash games and Snake doesn't have these qualities. Fast characters and the game being faster in general might give him trouble in this game when the meta is better developed.
Down throw not being weight dependent is honestly as big as the much safer grab. Now grab combos work regardless of a characters weight so now heavies and superheavies alike get hit by stuff off of grab instead of mainly lightweights. Really just links will have to adjust to a more offensive style of play instead of the way smash 4 link played out.
You can't just dash up and hit Snake shield for free unless you want to get blown up by grenades which happened in a ton of matches I saw with Ally or MVD. His Up-Tilt kills early (90-115% range for most characters), is an anti-air and it comes out F6 and have good range meaning around 100% YOU will need to respect his CQC options. F-Tilt is F4 and can be used as a mix-up after hit 1 as MVD shown against Esam. Nikita is literally abusive to anyone with a predictable recovery and still good vs characters with good recoveries. His biggest weaknesses will be his disadvantage state and just how easy it is for characters to hold him there. Snake Dash-Attack is also super good as well coming out Frame 5 with his Head and Arms Intangible: Frames 5-12 and can is a kill option at very high percents. His Dair is also an excellent OoS option that is further helped by the fact that Snake Jump-Squat went from F9 to F3 in this game drastically improving the speed of his aerials.
In my experience it's alright to edgeguard with a long lasting hitbox. I can edgeguard them reasonably consistently with drop down side B from ROB or drop down N-Air from K-Rool.
I have a bit of a hard time believing that when MVD just won Don't Park, beating numerous faster characters including ESAM's Pikachu, who should absolutely know the matchup. If Snake drops, it'll be because of his disadvantage being exploited, not his run speed.
Except wasn't people spacing their up-Bs to avoid 2-framing also a thing in Smash 4? Exact differences between Inkling and the rest of the cast aside, people still missed 2-frames a lot in Smash 4 for one reason or another, usually people mixing up both their spacing and timing with up-Bs, so it never really has to be "simple" per se to 2-frame someone. What you suggested at the end of your post (labbing options) is an approach people should have anyway, regardless of who they're facing, and as people get more comfortable with edgeguarding in Ultimate, you'll see people go for those options more. At least Ness is off to a good start on that front thanks to his D-smash lol.
hi there
It takes a while to set up Nikita, so the easiest way is to just recover before he gets to. Outside of that? Have a big brain ig
The nikita missile is busted in this game. You have way more control over its trajectory and it moves much faster. It's like sending Luma offstage except you control it and it explodes on contact.
). Snake has very strong traps and can box in CQC. He's heavy and powerful enough to seal stocks.
Seems respectable. I have trouble seeing him lower than the median? D-throw nerfs and cast-wide landing lag decreases hurt him, but he appreciates the speed creep and doesn't mind doing non-grab OoS options. Speed creep also improves Fireball approach utility, and Mario probably benefits from the air dodge changes as much as it hurts him. Thanks for putting him on our radar, Konga. What's a ding-dong? I think this maximally-armored-edition of DK will prove to be a lot more robust than the Smash 4 one-trick-pony. I feel like the air dodge changes help the absolute worst-juggled characters, actually. DK and DDD were already in never-ending disadvantage, multiple air-dodges or not. They'd much rather than a directional mixup--ANY mixup--than more airdodges that never did the trick in the first place. No idea, no thoughts. I find myself missing hookshot, but that's obviously just habits and difficulty adapting. I'm... actually really enjoying Samus?!? She was one of my weakest and least-enjoyed characters in all previous games. It's charge shot. The ability to charge it faster and aerially, the absurd damage, the degree to wish it crushes a shield--it's now a truly satisfying centerpiece that her moveset can revolves around. Missiles feel a tad better too, for the same shield pressure reasons. (Parrying will limit this.) And the noticeable buffs to roll and grab mean that I no longer feel punished for playing a character who has to follow different rules than everyone else. I dunno how good she'll shake out, but she's my #1 most unexpected winner in terms of enjoyment. Uhhh yeah so this character is good and everyone has figured this out by now. He's also fun! Also little idea. We saw some decent Kirby play, but I'm always skeptical of character lacking both speed and range. No idea. I feel like I didn't glean much from the footage we got tbqh. I mean ESAM put on the show we'd expect, especially in doubles where I felt like MVD was merely doing a A+ job of allowing ESAM to run train. Everyone knows this character is great, not much insight I can add. No idea. Tbqh I haven't touched him at all, nor seen a single game of footage. Look, you have to attack PKT. You just have to, air dodging is not a winning option. (For most characters) Ness looks really good, in spite of grab nerfs, but we'll see how his neutral holds up in the long run. Not surprised if PKT endlag gets nerfed. Uhhh yeah that was a great set and very persuasive as to Falcon's love of this new environment, but how generalize are these combos? Confirmed knees on an Incineroar is one thing, but I want to see stuff working in bracket on a Pichu before I raise the Falcon flag on my ship. Still, this is clearly a good start to Falcon. I've played a decent amount of Puff at this point and am not disappointed. Lots of stuff is just workable now, Rest is far more applicable, and damage inflation means stale moves is less of a huge deal for her. She cares less about air dodge nerfs than most, Pound is disgusting on shield now, it's good times. Captain L's team performance was very encouraging. Another "you don't need me to talk about this really good character." New Bowser feels a bit more like DK to me--there's just a lot of power that is suddenly "on tap" and accessible to actually apply to pretty broad situations. I want to see more about just how consistent his neutral can actually be against electric rats and swords. I have no idea and neither do you. It'll take a long time for the final equilibrium of Nana protection/assassination tech to be reached across the matchup chart, and everything hinges on that. It's hard to make this character bad, but this environment is certainly less to her strengths. I think without bouncing fish she'd legit be in trouble, and I do not expect her to be top or upper-high tier as she currently stands. Zelda's buffs have been overstated. Still, what a breath of fresh air to play Zelda and not feel like you're in 0% control of the match? Phantom isn't a panacea but is what the doctor ordered. I found myself being constantly reminded how good of a tool Nayru's is, and how solid it is to now be attached to a formidable character. This character is good and I love him. Really want to see people take this guy to the top. His recovery is still bottom-tier (improvements are overstated, however welcome), but all the buffs are meaningful and his playstyle benefits from speed creep perhaps the most of anyone in the entire cast??? I think parry optimization will also help him more than most, as doc should be able to consistently slap on a meaty little punish for parrying your dumb autopilot sword aerials. Yada yada he's-great-you-know-this. I heard a pockets of intense initial optimism and then radio silence. I haven't played him much myself. But hey, dair SH ACs, so that's fun? Same thought for the whole gang: I'm reserving judgement at this point until I see MKLeo. I don't think they are comparable to For Glory Little Mac, but c'mon, all of our perceptions are really skewed right now. At the level they are being played online, nerfs would also not be surprising. Either way, I'm disinclined to talk much about them. Both seems compelling? Want to see people parry harassment better before I jump to conclusions on heavy-harassment-based characters. Definitely feels closer to Melee Ganon. I sort of don't know what to make of him? Verm's showing was good but ultimately not especially conclusive. I heard so much initial bullish predictions for Mewtwo that seem to have fallen off a cliff, as echoed in this thread. I was skeptical, as I doubted we'd see such a radical weight increase on Mewtwo (and Rosalina!) if the character had not been considered "in trouble" in development balancing. Still, Mewtwo seems far from bad? Shadow Ball doesn't have the terror that new Charge Shot does, but it's still spooky. I expect Mewtwo to be above the median. If you put a gun to my head, I'd point to G&W as worst character. A couple things are nice--u-tilt is surprisingly effective, somehow--but fair is the biggest disappointment of any move in the game. It sounds great on paper, until you see it lose to EVERYTHING in practice. Uair is underwhelming, turtle still functions but feels like it missed the memo on damage inflation and can't carry him. The d-throw game he relied on as a crutch is no longer there? Nair is still solid, at least. D-tilt feels like a travesty after Smash 4. Bucket reflection is a welcome QoL change but he still seems to be the only weak Smash 4 character who is now worse. I'd love to hear from anyone who thinks otherwise. No first hand experience, my MK is trash. Guess we'll see how the ladders shake out. We've talked about these guys. Confirming for the 100th time that yup, they are the full package now. Nothing to add here either. I do expect her to remain above the median. Do we have any footage from Gluttony's event? That would matter more than any impressions I have. If MVD can handle ESAM's Pikachu, I don't buy that there will be a radical shift due to Snake's "setup time". (People seem to be forgetting that ESAM has had who-knows-how-many hours practicing against/with MVD's Snake already? He is probably the world's premier anti-Snake player at the moment!) Movement creep majorly helped Snake, what with his million-frame-jumpsquat and all, and we should all offer our finest calf as sacrifice that the developers had the balance foresight to take away his Literally forgot he was in this game. All the sword oxygen is being sucked up by the others. Repeatedly impressed by this character. Squirtle is much worse, we all know that, but I still feel so free and in control while playing as Squirtle in any matchup. (I just can't kill anymore) The virtues of Pokemon Change cannot be extolled enough, it's an amazing tool. I dunno what it is about Pokemon Change into Ivy fair, but I land it a magnitude more than I feel like I ought to? I suspect that changing into Ivy uair/dair for certain reads (both dodges and attacks) will prove to be a real tool, as well as Vine Whip and Razor Leaf, which both apply respectable damage threat in valued situations. It's wild just how diverse their off-stage toolkit is--nothing in Smash history is quite like it. Water Gun/Squirtle aerial into Razor Leaf/Vine Whip into Charizard stuff is most appealing, but any ordering works. (Vine Whip in particular really greases the possibilities) OoS nair meta? All the Pokemon shine, but Ivy nair is a special one. I find myself using Charizard for very brief amounts of time, but he can consistently find the kills. U-throw on battlefield and the invincible f-smash are as nice as ever, but I've been stunned how much Flare Blitz is better when we've just transitioned from Ivysaur. Working theory is that the mentality of dealing with Ivysaur's zoning crap (looking for a way to rush in) is exactly the options that Flare Blitz punches in the face. If Inkling could turn into Ganon, they'd both probably be better characters too. I really want Reflex footage! Jtails did just fine with Diddy, and clearly would have beaten Konga if not for input errors. There's no way this character is not in the top quartile. Hard to evaluate. Doubtful how much super-scary PK Freeze will matter at high-level play, and doubtful that Lucas PKT has the air-dodge ruining pressure potential that Ness's has. Universal shield/grab nerfs are not in his favor, and of course his d-throw combos are neutered. Does it all just come down to how much low-lag nair enables him, or am I missing something else? No opinion, other than that he seems much less awful to play against. (Hope that holds!) Like I said with DK, I think one better airdodge is superior for characters with juggle problems. Big D's showing was impressive, but I really want to see how DDD deals with a broader range of matchups. The Inhale change is nice; it's applications are in some ways limited, but it's welcome to have a stable option NOT lose to projectile hazard on DDD. Obviously good character, want to see more matchup dynamics play out. Is Dabuz playing Olimar??? No idea, but my Lucario-playing pal is very bullish. Agree with sentiments in this topic. This is a great environment for ROB, and we should all be thankful his kill options are kinda limited. Top quartile?!? I am unconvinced. Good normals, but I feel like a lot of Wolf matchups in my early experience are just boiling down to "can they deal with lasers?" If Wolf can force approaches into his good normal options, he works fine; otherwise I haven't had much luck as him and have not struggled against him. Side-b is fun as it was in Brawl, but let's not pretend it makes the character tick. I've gotten plenty of off-stage kills against Wolf. I'd feel comfortable guessing a lower position for him as he stands today. Villager has to hate the speed creep, though he doesn't care about grab changes and welcomes shields being worse. As far as I can tell, Villager got nothing in compensation, quite unlike the other zoners. I am willing to bet that Villager has fallen to the bottom half. Unlike Villager, he got this crazy pellets buff to fit into the new world. Landing lag changes are welcome on MM disproportionately as well, thank goodness they didn't include bair in the party. Holding f-smash longer is nice. Still, Leaf Shield is weird and kinda sad now, and with no dumb footstool shenanigans I'm not sure great pellets are enough to keep Mega Man in the upper echelons? I'm certainly not bullish. Holy crap. Am I the only one blown away by this character? 125% Deep Breathing damage more than makes up for speed creep making it harder to pull off. The speed increases and landing lag buffs make her previously lackluster buttons into accessible strings that do tons of damage. New max header angle is most welcome, and helps her achieve Samus-lite levels of projectile Shield Pressure. Even up-b is better! John Numbers doesn't owe us anything and should play whatever character he wants, but I'd love to see what he can do with her. Haven't played a trained Rosa yet, so I'm clueless. Almost like ICs or Shulk, I think it will take much longer to suss out Mac than most characters. He's more robust though, even if he still can't jump onto Smashville's platform! The side-b change is simply huge, and KO Punch is so much better. But parrying will affect Mac more than most characters/matchups. Little Mac was the #1 benefactor of accidental powershields, as well as the person most punished by them. (So much of Mac's ground options depend on their implicit spaced safety--lose that and whelp.) I need to sink my teeth into parrying more to better extrapolite how it is likely to evolve, but I think it's a safe initial guess that it will be far harder to parry in-your-face 1-5f ground options from a Mac than swordsman SH aerials. Mac still probably prefers to OoS U-smash? All this grab nerf and jumpsquat buff nonsense is vaguely meaningless to him, in comparison to everyone else. And of course being able to do the world's-best-ground-moveset out of Little Mac runspeed is insane, but you already knew that. Zero informed opinion, based on my time playing him. He feels the same???Brawler feels disappointing. Suplex is a gem--you first think it's good, then you think it's bad, then maybe it's actually good??? Swordfighter and Gunner having better recoveries is a huge sigh of relief, as mentioned. I remain unconvinced that Gunner can kill reliably, but it's clearly a better situation than before. (RIP fair though) I don't anticipate any of the Miis being in the upper half. Uh okay so this character is great and getting lots of early results. Her nair is amazing, her tilts are zero-to-hero, her projectiles are great, Teleport is good as ever... A lot of Palutena seems well-suited to stuffing braindead SH stuff that everyone has now? But yeah my impressions of Palutena are not especially unique or controversial. Skeptical. He loves loves loves the worse shields, and also has a somewhat workable grab to boot. He also is fine doing fast aerials OoS, sure. But otherwise, this engine does not seem kind to this character, who would prefer to play as slowly as possible with as many air dodges as possible. Bottom quartile. Robin on the other hand I am very optimistic for, and have argued with people about. Yes, he lost checkmate, arcthunder combos, d-throw setups, arcfire safety, and even doesn't start the match with levin. Doesn't matter, the environmental changes are too huge. Rolling away from Robin is no longer a sustainable strategy, f3 shorthop is an ABSURD improvement for Mr. Levin (especially OoS), Levin Nair is great, Thoron is fantastic and worth the price of admission, Arcthunder still does great damage on its own, Elthunder forces that single air dodge, Thoron and Arcthunder poke shields very easily... And recovery is significantly better to boot! I felt vindicated by Deci's very strong showing at DPOTG, and think you will see more of this in the future. Like ICs, ask me in a year. Okay, so. I think Bowser Jr. is mediocre, but think the degree is being heavily overstated in a meme way and that the character is noteably better than Smash 4. He is an aerial-focused character who loves landing lag and jumpsquat changes, and remember how he had a super-high-damage-and-lethal jab with the little downside of it simply not working? Yeah, well, now it works. And then there's the biggest change of all, that the 0.88x damage hurtbox now takes priority over the 1.15x damage hurtbox. This is... one of the biggest buffs in Smash history, and it would be very hasty to dismiss it out of hand. He hates the speed creep more than almost anyone, and lost his cute little SH AC dair. But he got tons of toys as compensation! Truthfully, I'm still working out how to most capitalize on new gunmen, frisbee, and his recovery. All seem to help him a lot, but I'm having difficulty seeing how far they go. Worse grabs make him and his setups very sad, too. He's surely improved, but remains an enigma to me despite how much I play him. I am the least qualified person in the universe to talk about these characters. It's so delightful that Cloud is actually fun to fight against now. There was something soul-crushing about having to fight a disjointed character better than you who--right as you are started to get frustrated with nair--gets limit. But now Cloud feels like just another good character. I think he'll be top quartile, but only barely if I had to gander a more specific guess. Is getting overshadowed, but not the the extent of Ike. The character is worse off, but in a favorable environment? I can't see Corrin outside the top half. I have yet to play against or watch a single trained Bayonetta. How does she kill? Good character is good, no insights here. I actually, somehow, have the least first-hand impressions on Inkling of all the newcomers, despite Inkling appearing to be the obvious best. I've focused a lot more on Ridley since posts here, and we got to see multiple good Ridleys do respectfully at DPOTG. Nair and d-tilt save the character, and f-tilt/bair seem critical as well. Ridley's recovery isn't that bad once you get used to it--the horizontal up-b angle seem random until you learn that it is perfect flying back to the stage after going seep off-stage with both double jumps. I feel like Ridley has a lot of potential for juicy 60% roll reads, particularly to the stage edge or perhaps from the ledge? Jab out of side-B break is an important design feature--are we certain it is true? Across the cast? Fireball is quite handy but I think people will get much better at dealing with it. I have heard the most polarizing opinions on these two, and feel it in my own gameplay. Sometimes, as a Belmont or their opponent, I find myself saying "wow, that was so good, they covered all the options"; other times they just feel like a sack of potatoes. I wouldn't be surprised if their matchups end up very polarized? Worse case, they are the Little Mac of these game, and we all just figure out how to deal with them and move on. I bet they don't like people getting better at parries. I've heard a lot of comparisons to Bowser Jr, saying he's a gimmick-focused character who is destined to go down. I can't disagree, but we all probably see eye-to-eye that he has the tools and numbers to have some baseline threat which he won't fall below. The armored attacks, reflector, and protected recovery make for a heavy who can better cope with historically abusive anti-heavy options. My wife is pessimistic on Isabelle, and has a hunch Villager is better. I'm not quite sure I'm ready to take the opposite position, but I'm a little more bullish on the value of Isabelle's unique traits. Down-b is just too handy and synergizes with slingshot zoning too well. Smart people have been downplaying the Fishing Rod hype, but I think it's handy and actually fits into her zoning game pretty well once you get past the realization that it's not nearly as broken as your first impression. In the neutral, think of it as a call-out option like Flare Blitz, Wizkick, or Pit side-b. Sure, Fishing Rod doesn't have the reward of those options, but it better fits into her zoning game and beats all of those options to boot! (Nevermind the edgeguarding tomfoolery) I don't see Isabelle in the upper half, but she doesn't seem bad. Incineroar is the new, much-better-designed Brawl/Smash4 Ganon. He's slow, his range is poor except for certain aerials, and he usually needs to call out exactly what you are doing to hit you. How is he playable? Well, let's count. His throws and side-b are far more rewarding and lethal than ol' Ganon. Lariat is a Good Button (tm) that actually beats stuff, which is like water in the desert to ol' Ganon. His recovery is lightly but meaningfully improved. And finally, most important of all, he has Revenge. Nobie is right, listen to him: Revenge is absurd, and if you are playing Incineroar without Revenge, you might as well be playing Shulk without Monado or Rosalina without Luma. It can easily double your damage, and shines the most against safe projectiles that would otherwise most abuse him. Listen, when you are Incineroar, Wolf needs to fear lasering you as much as he would a G&W, understand? Pichu isn't afraid of taking a couple percent to harass you, so why should Incinerator be afraid of taking a couple percent to deal 50% with a side-b? And camping doesn't really work, you aren't going to time out Incineroar's 60 second buff. Smash 4 Ganon is jealous of this guy, not Ultimate Ganon.
I can't really find a single major thing I disagree with in this post, save for one:I finally got some meaty hands on experience, and of course tourneys have happened so that was informative too. Time for a dump:
(Also, wishing the smilie char icons were in Canonical Numerical Order rather than alphabetical...)
second bananaproximity mine. Yes, MVD is a uniquely talented player, and yes, Snake dropped over the course of Brawl's lifespan, and yes, Snake's disadvantage state poses questions. 3f-jumpsquat-low-landing-lag Ultimate Snake is still looking like a top character.
Browny said that, not Nobie.
I think Mewtwo players are too used to having the specific tools it wielded in Smash 4, and have yet to fully appreciate where they've decided to shore up the character otherwise. I just noticed the other day that while up throw generally kills later due to higher ceilings, they actually made back throw stronger! A max rage Mewtwo at the edge can take out Mario at under 100%, so the character goes from having one really good kill throw + one okay one to two very good ones depending on the situation.I finally got some meaty hands on experience, and of course tourneys have happened so that was informative too. Time for a dump:
(Also, wishing the smilie char icons were in Canonical Numerical Order rather than alphabetical...)
second bananaproximity mine. Yes, MVD is a uniquely talented player, and yes, Snake dropped over the course of Brawl's lifespan, and yes, Snake's disadvantage state poses questions. 3f-jumpsquat-low-landing-lag Ultimate Snake is still looking like a top character.
Oops, you're right; everyone listen to
Browny
, and feel free to ignore
Nobie
I guess.Agreed; though ironically the anti-shield mixup would have been more valuable in Smash 4 and the movement mixup would have been more valuable in Ultimate.
This requires some context.
You won't forget him when he gets a guaranteed kill confirm off Nair. God normal.
I've only just now gotten a chance to start playing around with Ike (whenever I get a game I always clear off the single player content before touching the multiplayer, so my Ike experience is rather limited atm), but his Nair is.... potentially one of the best in the game? Dare in say actually in the running for best in the game? Huge range all around him with a good start up time, combos early on and into kill confirms, near-to-zero landing lag, actually usable off stage. Its bonkers. Which is good because yikes they did some tweaks to Ike and a number of them not for the better.
Thinkaman
A quick correction, Ike is not slower in smash Ultimate. He did, however, get the lowest run speed increase, going from 1.5 to... 1.507. An honestly negligible 0.47% speed increase from Smash 4 to Ultimate, when the average run speed increase across the cast was a 10% buff, leaves him at 66th in run speed. Still not good, but it’s at least not a speed nerf.
