Hydreigonfan01
Smash Master
- Joined
- Aug 24, 2018
- Messages
- 4,494
Someone made a chart showing character usage off of the LumiRank top 150 ranking. It's counting both mains and secondaries.
![CDN media](https://i.redd.it/l1rgftnxavec1.jpeg)
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ZSS would be a great anti-meta character if someone actually played her and went to a lot of events. Marss is going to locals/monthlies as of recent, but I still don't think he's going full back into competition. That being said I don't think Sonic loses to ZSS but I haven't seen it at a top level post-quarantine and the Snake MU is very player opinionated. ApolloKage and Marss thinks ZSS vs Snake is even while MVD hates the matchup and thinks it's losing for Snake.Isn't the popularly perceived top 5 characters right now Snake, ROB, Game and Watch, Steve, and Sonic? Not that I agree at all, but if that's the perception, that means you're going to run into a lot of those characters commonly.
ZSS beats all 5 of those characters imo.
And with other slow characters like Corrin and Samus on the rise, this is a ZSS meta for sure. ZSS loves those kinds of matchups since she can avoid the ledgetrap and frametrap so much more easily than other characters.
Here you goI've said this before, ZSS is a top tier; why doesn't she have more reps?
Can someone link me Orion stats please?
Yeah, I think YL has fallen off after quarantine, I feel like neutral monster characters that have a difficult time getting kills are doing worse as the meta goes on. Even Pyra/Mythra, who I still think are top 5, used to be considered number 1/number 2 in the game once offline came back alongsideQuestion: What do people think of? He was seen as pretty good early on but now he's fallen out of the top 30 on Orion stats. He has an amazing neutral but balanced by light weight and poor kill power. Aside from Diddy Kong the meta doesn't seem favorable to this type of character and rather favors strong explosive advantage states with early kill potential, point in case Kazuya is doing much better than YL.
I played YL for several years in local tournaments and my impressions of him are that he's a counterpick character. He slightly beats (+1)and goes even with
out of the meta relevant threats plus does well against many lower characters. A big part of this is YL's amazing neutral can out neutral characters who traditionally dominate there like Sheik, Diddy and the rats. He can be a good answer for fighting game characters and big body characters due to not having to engage and being able to zone them with projectiles. It should be noted that he doesn't beat any character super hard. The reason for this usually goes one of two ways: YL wins neutral but he dies at 80% and can't kill until 130%+ so it ends up more of even or he wins neutral but gets destroyed offstage and not vice versa so it ends up more of even.
The downside is he loses to most sword characters and several other meta relevant threats: -1and -2
. What he hates the most are big disjoints on characters with better mobility than his very middle of the road mobility. They destroy him in disadvantage, kill earlier and get to him fast. As such he's not really solo-viable, there's too much bracket luck involved. This is why you never see YL in top 8 in anything bigger than regionals. Note I never played the steve MU but it's likely he slightly loses due to how lopsided the damage and kill potential are.
That's something I've said before: there's no reason to play any of the Links when the characters you mentioned do the same things just as well but with better recoveries and kill power.When it comes to zoners too, I think I'd rather have a character like,
and
where the damage output and kill power is at least strong, they have good recoveries and good off-me options and great buttons when you get close to them.
I thinkI have a fun thought experiment here: imagining how a version of a character would fare if he/she is slapped into a different Smash game's engine.
For example imagining what would happen ifwas slapped into the SSB4 engine for example. It oftentimes makes you think of how much a game's engine completely changes the viability of a character from time to time. For example,
and
are both characters with solid enough, if not outright good, toolkits and attributes, but ends up getting absolutely and completely screwed over by simply existing in Brawl's engine.
One case study is imagining what would happen ifand
directly transitioned over to the SSB4 engine.
The key thing here is that Mewtwo absolutely relied on SSB4's broken airdodging to be as strong as he is in that game. Without it, he can no longer contend on being a large, floaty lightweight character. Pre-patch SSB4 Mewtwo was weak despite having the funny airdodge because his offense was not strong enough back then to back up his extreme fragility. Ultimate Mewtwo has the exact opposite problem where he has all of the offensive ability in the world, but has virtually no defense to fall back on. So imagining Ultimate Mewtwo's toolkit and extra weight with SSB4's airdodging sounds extremely frightening.
DK received mostly buffs going into Ultimate, but still ends up being much less viable than in SSB4 primarily because of Ultimate's nerfs to shields, grabs, and airdodging being significant nerfs to his playstyle. He can still execute the same gameplan as in SSB4, but the main part of why this was strong in SSB4 was something NairWizard highlighted in a past comment: SSB4 was a game where shields can be used offensively. Shields and grabs, and by extension shield grabs, was overtuned enough to the point you can use shield grabs as a way to approach, which is obviously something DK loves. All of that getting the shaft in Ultimate is a massive nerf to DK. The changes to airdodges also greatly hurts DK's already shaky disadvantage, which overall results in DK's not-so-great state now. So imagining Ultimate DK in a game engine where his general playstyle is much more favored is a very frightening aspect to behold.
The most interesting case scenario imo, is what would happen iftransitioned into other game engines.
I think she would be strong in Ultimate, but she is definitely in her peak with her home of SSB4's engine, as the cast has less inherent tools to maneuver and deal with her gameplan, while the game provided the jank (and lower ceilings) needed to exacerbate her strengths.
Melee's engine is very hit or miss due to how different the physics of that game is in comparison to every Smash game after it, so it is hard to imagine how her combo game and gameplan will translate to that game.
Conversely, I think she has a much, MUCH harder time succeeding if she is placed in Brawl's engine, even with pre-patch SSB4 Bayo. She fundamentally doesn't work in Brawl's far less combo friendly engine, which is very bad for a character entirely focused around combos. Between the game's much stronger hitstun canceling, less reliable autolink angles, and the much stronger SDI the game possesses makes it hard for the character to really start anything. It also makes it harder for her combos to actual lead to kill confirms, and thus because of this, I can imagine her having to rely on fishing for back airs in neutral to land kills, but that also comes with the downside of having to deal with Brawl's harsher stale move system in that regard. Her weaker combos also weakens the threat of Witch Time outside of Smash attack kill percents. While the character can work around her iffy neutral game in SSB4's engine, this becomes much harder to do in Brawl's even more neutral game focused metagame, with the game possessing some of the strongest neutral tools in Smash history. The only real caveat is that the stronger hitstun canceling does make her 1 frame airdodge even sillier, but that is realistically only really coming into play for certain niche scenarios.
Do mind that I don't she would be outright bad in Brawl, as her inherent tools is stronger than Brawl's low and bottom tiers; just not very strong and a character that now has to contend with plenty of characters with better risk-reward than her now.
Land a Witch Time against ICs?
Not resulting in their death thanks to Brawl's engine gutting her combos. Just decent damage.
Whiff a Witch Time against ICs?
She dies.
Melee Samus has kinda fallen off in comparison to how she fared in the early 2010s; at the very least, her being top 10 is highly debatable now. Ultimate Samus' standing in the meta is noticeably stronger in comparison, especially impressive in a 80 character roster. When looking in a vacuum, then Ultimate Samus is absolutely def better.Isbetter than
? The Melee tier list would suggest not, but looking at their kits the only two noteworthy ways the Melee version stands out is stronger (Super) Missiles that can actually kill and a more standard nair for combo-breaking.
Isreally the best Dedede, or did he just coast by on Brawl's chaingrabbing?
is hard to argue as not being the objectively worst version of the character at face value, being treated as a joke and not having her trademark aerial agility, yet still does OK in a game with weak shields, no airdodging and worse recoveries on average, faring better than in Brawl and 4 at least.
Dedede with Brawl b-air would jump like 2 tiers in any game.Isreally the best Dedede, or did he just coast by on Brawl's chaingrabbing?
Zomba continues to be a big fish in small ponds. He also won Failsafe Winter 2024, which had a few good players like Syrup.Results for Valhalla IV, a B Tier in Europe
1. Zomba
2. Luugi
3. Lancelot![]()
4. Mezcaul
5. THE SCHMIXTAPE![]()
/ Tarik
7. Pipwolf/ iRefuse
9. Anbil/ Faifre
/ +HOPE+
/ Nibodax
13. tsun/ Daphung
/ MelihMegron
/ Dia
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That would mean a huge improvement. DDD would probably go from low to mid tier. As they are, Gordos aren't very good for anything but ledge trapping. I know YL's projectiles reflect gordos back and DDD has a hell of a time in that MU. If they powered through it would be much better for him.How much better wouldbe if his Gordos needed an attack to deal 15% damage in a single hit to reflect back instead of 2%?
I think Aegis is so slept on, needs a solo main that is incredibly dedicated to finding the roots of disadvantage coming from neutral and avoiding them actively (CodySchwab of Ult basically)
— ShinyMark🌙 (@ShinyMark1) February 10, 2024
Imo they are the only char rn that can join Sonic/GnW/Pika/Rob (ignore Pika if u want)
True, but you can't selectively use his opinion without full context. He also thinks that Corrin is like mid 30s and a full tier below Lucina.MkLeo seems to think she's not even top 10.
I'm guessing Yoshi is high because of Japan having 3 really good Yoshi players in Yoshidora, Ron and Fui. They think Yoshi is top 10 over there, and Europe also has a good Yoshi in THE SCHMIXTAPE. The tier list had a lot of different opinions from people all in different regions.Corrin higher than Lucina, you love to see it. Gone are the days where people would say "Why play Corrin when you can play Lucina".
Overall I think this tier list is significantly better than the old one, which is nice to see.
Top 6 I mostly agree with. Aegis I disagree with, I think that character is a bit overrated and probably more like the lower end of top 10 than top 5. MkLeo seems to think she's not even top 10. Diddy Kong #9 I'm not sold on just yet.
A+ seems fine. Yoshi #14 seems high, Samus #15 also seems high considering she has some really bad MUs vs some top tiers. I'm glad to see that Pikachu is no longer significantly overrated (#17 sounds fair enough to me). I'm glad to see Sora is rising, #18 sounds much closer to his real placement compared to the previous list (where he was #31). The character is really good.
To clarify, players back in early Ultimate thought Diddy was straight up low tier. It the combination of both his much weaker recovery, but also his neutral and KO tools being weaker back then too. He had a much harder time killing while dying much sooner himself. The banana pyramid infinite was the only real thing going about vanilla Ultimate Diddy.I personally don't think Diddy Kong will ever be a truly horrible character in Smash unless they gut his recovery like in early Ultimate, and even then he was just mid.