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Official Competitive Character Impressions 2.0

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  • Total voters
    583

Hydreigonfan01

Smash Master
Joined
Aug 24, 2018
Messages
4,273
Results for LMBM 2024

1. Tweek :ultdiddy:
2. Sonix :ultsonic:
3. Sparg0 :ultcloud: :ultcorrinf: :ultmythra:
4. MkLeo :ultjoker:
5. Skyjay :ultincineroar: / Maister :ultgnw:
7. Light :ultfox: / Tilde :ultfalco:
9. SHADIC :ultcorrinf:/ WebbJP :ultsheik: / Sinji :ultpacman: :ultgnw: / Riddles :ultkazuya: :ult_terry:
13. MuteAce :ultpeach: / Niko :ultcloud: / Oolong :ultwiifittrainer: / Kurama :ultmario: :ultcorrinf:
17. Anarchy :ultgreninja: / ChunkyKong :ultdk: / Capitancito :ultgunner: omega :ultjoker: / Dark Wizzy :ultmario: / BeastModePaul :ulthero: :ultsephiroth: / Kola :ultroy: / Jahzz0 :ultken: :ultsonic: :ultkazuya:
 

The_Bookworm

Smash Master
Joined
Jan 10, 2018
Messages
3,192
Luminosity Makes BIG Moves 2024 (891 Entrants)

1st: Tweek:ultdiddy:
2nd: Sonix:ultsonic:
3rd: Sparg0:ultcloud::ultmythra:
4th: MkLeo:ultjoker:
5th: Skyjay:ultincineroar:
5th: Maister:ultgnw:
7th: Light:ultfox:
7th: Tilde:ultfalco:
9th: SHADIC:ultcorrinf:
9th: Riddles:ultkazuya:
9th: Sinji:ultpacman:
9th: WebbJP:ultsheik:

13th: MuteAce:ultpeach:
13th: Kurama:ultmario:
13th: Niko:ultcloud:
13th: Oolong:ultwiifittrainer:

17th: Anarchy:ultgreninja:
17th: Dark Wizzy:ultmario:
17th: BeastModePaul:ulthero::ultsephiroth:
17th: Capitancito:ultgunner:
17th: omega:ultjoker::ultsephiroth:
17th: ChunkyKong:ultdk:
17th: Kola:ultroy:
17th: Jahzz0:ultken:

25th: Anathema:ultrob:
25th: Syrup:ultness:
25th: Quinn:ultsamus:
25th: GuyGuy:ultluigi::ultgreninja:
25th: Monte:ultgnw:
25th: Smirk:ultken:
25th: Justice:ultminmin
25th: Chase:ultpalutena:
33rd: Beastly:ultdiddy:
33rd: Wildz:ultdk:
33rd: Sho:ultmetaknight:
33rd: Vendetta:ultken::ultryu:
33rd: Jonhy:ultroy::ultsephiroth:
33rd: Gen:ultpalutena:
33rd: Quidd:ultpokemontrainerf:
33rd: Endothia:ultgnw:
33rd: Regalo:ultlucas:
33rd: MFA:ultolimar:
33rd: Kobe:ultyounglink::ultlucina:
33rd: Mr. E:ultlucina:
33rd: Epic_Gabriel:ultrob:
33rd: Rocke:ultpacman:
33rd: Peabnut:ultmegaman:
33rd: Alo!:ultzelda:

49th: Cee:ultpalutena:
49th: ZeroTwoNone:ultzelda:
49th: SoulArts:ultshulk:
49th: naitosharp:ultzss::ultwolf::ultsephiroth:
49th: Ling:ultpeach:
49th: PkChris:ultness:
49th: Dominator:ultmario:
49th: frawg:ultbayonetta1:
49th: Shadow_PR:ultbayonetta::ultsora:
49th: Revolver:ultroy:
49th: Vivi:ulthero::ultlucario:
49th: Dabuz:ultrosalina::ultalph::ultminmin
49th: MVD:ultsnake:
49th: JeJaJeJa:ultkirby:
49th: Shady:ultmythra::ultrob:
49th: Lukewarm:ultkrool:


Umebura SP #10 (1275 Entrants)

1st: acola:ultsteve:
2nd: Miya:ultgnw::ultsteve:
3rd: Glutonny:ultwario:
4th: Kameme:ultsora::ultsheik:
5th: Shuton:ultmythra::ultolimar:
5th: KEN:ultsonic:
7th: Yaura:ultsamus::ultdarksamus:
7th: Doramigi:ultminmin
9th: Umeki:ultdaisy:
9th: Tea:ultkazuya::ultpacman:
9th: Yoshidora:ultyoshi:
9th: Zomba:ultrob:

13th: Asimo:ultryu:
13th: Toriguri:ultbanjokazooie:
13th: alice:ultroy::ultkazuya:
13th: Suinoko:ultyounglink:

17th: Akakikusu:ulthero4:
17th: VoiD:ultsheik:
17th: Snow:ultmario:
17th: Jagaimo:ultpalutena:
17th: Cosmos:ultmythra:
17th: Zackray:ultpit::ultdarkpit::ultjoker:
17th: M0tsunabE:ultfalco:
17th: Taikei:ultsonic:

25th: Lax:ultchrom:
25th: Yn:ultzelda:
25th: Gachipi:ultlucario:
25th: Ryuoh:ultdiddy:
25th: Kuroponzu:ultrob:
25th: Rizeasu:ultmarth::ultbyleth:
25th: Shirayuki:ultinkling:
25th: Kyou:ultsnake:
33rd: Fui:ultyoshi:
33rd: Ama:ultwario:
33rd: Kaninabe:ultfox::ultswordfighter:
33rd: Kome:ultshulk:
33rd: Harasen:ulticeclimbers:
33rd: ElleGo:ultyounglink:
33rd: Ocha:ultrosalina:
33rd: Rarukun:ultluigi:
33rd: Ouch!?:ultwolf:
33rd: DIO:ultsnake:
33rd: TRIGGER:ultsimon:
33rd: Lea:ultgreninja:
33rd: Gaosan:ultincineroar:
33rd: Lv. 1:ulttoonlink:
33rd: Gorioka:ultsephiroth::ultjoker:
33rd: Raflow:ultpalutena:

49th: Nietono:ultdiddy:
49th: Natsu:ultpokemontrainer:
49th: Rima:ultsteve:
49th: nerisan:ultsnake:
49th: chicken:ultdiddy:
49th: Toura:ultsamus:
49th: TamaPDaifuku:ultbayonetta:
49th: Atelier:ultwolf::ultpokemontrainer:
49th: Riteshia:ultmythra:
49th: Omuatsu:ultminmin
49th: Naocha:ultdiddy:
49th: Rearlet:ultbowser:
49th: Eik:ultpeach:
49th: YOC:ultcloud:
49th: Nizemamo:ultbayonetta:
49th: Rarikkusu:ultdk:
 

Cheryl~

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jun 27, 2018
Messages
442
Switch FC
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Some of my favorite storylines from this weekend: Skyjay playing absolutely out of his mind in every event and taking Sonix to game 5 in an absolutely terrible matchup for Incineroar in almost every aspect (and he didn't even overly cheese Sonix or expose matchup inexperience either, it was just raw outplays in the games he won), Yaura almost winning Samus-Olimar against Shuton (he's at least proven the matchup can be done at top level, and he's easily the best Samus in the world for that lmao), and Tweek having the greatest bounce back after those painful Watch The Throne losses. Acola getting a W over Miya after multiple months was pretty cool too to be honest. A great weekend for Smash overall.
 

meleebrawler

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Hah I was actually referring to the numerous technical issues that occurred :p

But yeah, I was surprised by how much Smub was able to achieve w/ that one move: it's a quick, massive hitbox which overcame a lot of what Light was dishing out.
Also--and feel free to alert the press about this one--Ridley's f-tilt is very good.

Come to think of it... this character has quite a few really strong options in his toolkit: pretty much all tilts and aerials (well, minus dair lol) seem to play an integral role in offsetting the space dragon's less than desirable traits, not to mention championing two of the strongest smash attacks in the game (both in power and general utility) with f/up-smash.


EDIT: also, what the heck@ Skyjay taking Sonix to game 5...
Ridley is just really good at controlling the airspace around him, especially with his feet ironically firmly planted on the ground. Up-angled ftilt, utilt and usmash all make short-hopping around him risky, staying on the ground too much allows him time to condition you with Plasma Breath and his grab game, and jumping higher to avoid all of this gives his other aerials besides nair time to shine with their generally greater reward.

His main weaknesses I would say is getting blitzed by characters with fast ground speed and camping by characters with strong (chargeable) and/or very fast projectiles. Still, he is versatile enough in his playstyles that very few matchups are really bad for him, his recovery is honestly better than it looks with how badly he can turn the tables on anyone going out to meet him, and sometimes he can even play lame himself if the opponent is too slow and/or has zoning options too limited to contend with a stream of fireballs.
 

The_Bookworm

Smash Master
Joined
Jan 10, 2018
Messages
3,192
r/smashbros new tier list
Surprisingly solid tier list; at this point, we are getting a bit closer and closer to a general consensus on where each character goes.

Mii Brawler continues to be the biggest tiering anomaly in the game though; many players believing that the character is strong, but with close-to-no results to back that up.
 
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Rizen

Smash Legend
Joined
May 7, 2009
Messages
14,873
Location
Colorado
God damn it. I had a long message typed out and the site ate it. The crux was that Diddy loses to Sonic but Tweek was playing better than Sonix in LMBM. This is according to a Diddy player from my local scene. I can see that: Sonic is probably the best character at stealing Diddy's bananas, then he has his own combos and better kill power.
 

Hydreigonfan01

Smash Master
Joined
Aug 24, 2018
Messages
4,273
I've more or less accepted that the community will never give up the ghost on Pikachu at this point.
The tier list from the reddit community put him a long way down from when he was considered top 3, which is a good thing. I think Pikachu being top 15 is fine, and he is #12 rather then being like top 10.
 
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Hydreigonfan01

Smash Master
Joined
Aug 24, 2018
Messages
4,273
Results from Cafeteria Cup: LUNCHTIME, a Japanese Summit-like event.

1. Zomba :ultrob:
2. Atelier :ultpokemontrainerf:
3. Neo :ultcorrinf:
4. ApolloKage :ultsnake:
5. Kinaji :ultshulk: :ultsnake: / Asimo :ultryu:
7. Senra :ultjigglypuff: / Ouch!? :ultwolf: :ultpeach:
9. takera :ultken: / Jogibu :ultfalcon: / BassMage :ultjigglypuff: /Glutonny :ultwario:
13. Naocha :ultdiddy: / NaetorU :ultpichu: / Samuel :ultsteve: / Cosmos :ultmythra:
 

Sucumbio

Smash Giant
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Ridley is just really good at controlling the airspace around him, especially with his feet ironically firmly planted on the ground. Up-angled ftilt, utilt and usmash all make short-hopping around him risky, staying on the ground too much allows him time to condition you with Plasma Breath and his grab game, and jumping higher to avoid all of this gives his other aerials besides nair time to shine with their generally greater reward.

His main weaknesses I would say is getting blitzed by characters with fast ground speed and camping by characters with strong (chargeable) and/or very fast projectiles. Still, he is versatile enough in his playstyles that very few matchups are really bad for him, his recovery is honestly better than it looks with how badly he can turn the tables on anyone going out to meet him, and sometimes he can even play lame himself if the opponent is too slow and/or has zoning options too limited to contend with a stream of fireballs.
Do you think MKLeo could use Ridley as a second ? I feel like his dash attack and nair are a perfect fit for him but I realize he could feel like it's Byleth without the tether making him frustrated because he just loves tethers...
 

meleebrawler

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Do you think MKLeo could use Ridley as a second ? I feel like his dash attack and nair are a perfect fit for him but I realize he could feel like it's Byleth without the tether making him frustrated because he just loves tethers...
I don't know the first thing about pro player playstyles, but if he needs an answer to other swordies, those are generally the ones Ridley does best against in my opinion.

Personally I think of Ridley as a sturdier Mewtwo who's better at brawling and trading but has less versatile movement and zoning.
 

Hydreigonfan01

Smash Master
Joined
Aug 24, 2018
Messages
4,273
Results for KOWLOON #9 With Sumabato

1. Miya :ultgnw:
2. Rarukun :ultluigi:
3. Asimo :ultryu:
4. Hurt :ultsnake: :ultgreninja:
5. Doramigi :ultminmin / Yaura :ultsamus: :ultdarksamus:
7. Gackt :ultness: / Omuatsu :ultminmin :ultsteve:
9. Zomba :ultrob: / Carmelo :ultsteve: :ultcorrinf: :ultminmin / Neo :ultcorrinf:/ KEN :ultsonic:
13. Kaninabe :ultfox: / Karaage :ultfalcon: / M0tsunabE :ultfalco: / Taikei :ultsonic:
17. Noi :ultolimar: :ultpokemontrainer: / Snow :ultmario: / Akakikusu :ulthero4: / Glutonny :ultwario: / Senra :ultjigglypuff: / 33Peranbox :ultzombie: / Toriguri :ultbanjokazooie: / Raki :ultalex: :ultkazuya:
25. Jogibu :ultfalcon: / Lax :ultchrom: :ultsora: :ultdoc: / ApolloKage :ultsnake: / Ron :ultyoshi: :ultdoc: / Rizeasu :ultbyleth: :ultmarth: / MASA :ultfalco: / Shirayuki :ultinkling: / Yamanaction :ultsteve: :ultluigi: :ultroy:

Also I really doubt Leo would ever play Ridley, even if the character appeals to his playstyle. The character is not good, and Leo thinks Byleth won't cut it in this meta anymore and Ridley is worse. Also I dunno if Leo is a fan of Metroid the same way he is towards Fire Emblem.
 
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meleebrawler

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Since we brought up Mewtwo, how do people here look at Mewtwo?
Probably same old stuff, mostly about his tail. Has good stuff but not oppressive or safe enough to make up for big body featherweight yada yada basically same problems as Ridley.

He'll almost always be unpopular because almost nobody wants to put up with being big and light unless you can do top tier stuff and then some.

Edit: It's also probably one of the main reasons Pichu fell off, in addition to Pika getting optimized.
 
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Frihetsanka

Smash Champion
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Apr 26, 2016
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Sweden
Pichu also got massively nerfed (and Pikachu probably was never top 10). Both were overhyped when the game was new, but only Pichu got nerfed.

Spar0g just won a regional using solo Corrin btw, and Aaron seems to be seriously considering maining Corrin.
 

Rizen

Smash Legend
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Location
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Something that's really shown over the lifespan of Ultimate is that "flavor of the month" is a thing. That's just a saying, in smash it's more accurately "flavor of several months" but it does happen. Characters rise and drop in popularity. At first it happened a lot due to balance patches but now that we're past those it still happens. Lucina is a good example of this: she was highly thought of in the early meta then petered out due to better DLC characters popping up, changes in the meta and things as simple as people got bored with her. There's a long list of characters who this principle applies to. Kazuya's another; people were saying ban him and that he'd wreck the game then he lost his influence.

The big question is: who will stick and who is merely the current flavor of the month? For a good while Aegis were showing up 3 times in top 8s of major tournaments but they got passed by Steve and their top players for whatever reason dropped them for the most part. I'm talking Spargo and MKLeo. Now Spargo's favoring Corrin over them. It doesn't mean Corrin's better than Aegis. Is Corrin the current flavor of the month? It's hard to say but she sure feels like it. The meta is very volatile with new players like Acola and Miya showing up and smoking everyone. Right now Sonic, Diddy, G&W and Steve are also looking really hot. Although even Steve may fall victim to flavor of the month.
 
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Hydreigonfan01

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I think using Corrin over Aegis depends on the matchup. I reckon Sparg0 is picking up Corrin for a character that gets edgeguarded less then Aegis or Cloud so he can play certain matchups without being scared at getting sent offstage at low percents and getting edgeguarded. Riddles's Kazuya did a Gates of Hell that took a stock from Cloud at 0% at Port Priority 8, and Aegis certainly would've died there too. But Corrin? She would've survived that. Of course there's also matchups like :ultsonic: and :ultminmin where Corrin does better then Aegis, even if Aegis is the better character as a whole.
 
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NairWizard

Somewhere
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Characters with great burst whiff punishing are seeing a surge in the meta right now, for good reason. Since the meta is mash-heavy, it makes sense that the best way to deal with mashing is to just not engage with it and punish it from a distance. Characters like Bayonetta, Diddy Kong, and Greninja, as well as some zoners like Samus, are rising because they can just safely disengage from the mashing, bait it out, and then punish it. Corrin fits very well into this group because of Pin.

You know what character does really well vs. that archetype though? Snake. With the notable exception of Sonic, Snake just shoves all whiff punishers into a grenade-shaped box and doesn't let them use their burst range liberally. Snake doesn't care about Diddy's banana punishes, Greninja's dash attack, Bayonetta ABK, Samus Charge Shot, or Corrin Pin because Snake is not going to be whiffing in midrange. Snake is going to be whiffing behind the safety of an explosive that punishes the whiff punisher for trying to whiff punish.

Just a very strong character right now.
 

Rizen

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She would've survived that. Of course there's also matchups like :ultsonic: where Corrin does better then Aegis, even if Aegis is the better character as a whole.
I don't really agree with that. Spargo's Aegis has a much better record against Sonix than his Corrin. I think Spargo should go back to Aegis for that MU.
 

Hydreigonfan01

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I don't really agree with that. Spargo's Aegis has a much better record against Sonix than his Corrin. I think Spargo should go back to Aegis for that MU.
Sparg0 has only just picked up Corrin and is just starting out with the character. Of course it'll start off doing worse then his Aegis at the current moment who he put three years into.
 
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NairWizard

Somewhere
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I don't really agree with that. Spargo's Aegis has a much better record against Sonix than his Corrin. I think Spargo should go back to Aegis for that MU.
The biggest issue is that Mythra can't hit Sonic when Sonic is hanging on to the ledge. It's made the matchup pretty hard lately for sparg0. That's a big part of why he went Cloud at WTT.
 

Sucumbio

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I think rage needs to be tuned down a bit that was my point back then cause like some of these characters once they're in rage they become more than just resistant to KO but demand you get a confirmation because a stray hit isn't enough and a whole meta of who's who in 140-180hp + rage is a thing.
 

Hippieslayer

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Sparg0 has only just picked up Corrin and is just starting out with the character. Of course it'll start off doing worse then his Aegis at the current moment who he put three years into.
Dunno man. Corrin is not a difficult character to learn, in fact I think she's among the easiest characters, and Sparg0 is an elite swordbro. I'm sure his Corrin will improve over time if he sticks to it, but not drastically.
 

Frihetsanka

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I think Corrin is the real deal. There's a case to be made that she's even stronger in this game compared to Smash 4 (after the nerfs in Smash 4, release Corrin was pretty busted). Aaron has been working on his Corrin and is considering becoming a Corrin main. He thinks Corrin is a top 10 character and he even consider the possibility of top 5 (he thinks she's better than both Cloud and Aegis, making her the best swordie). Personally I don't think she's quite that good, I'm thinking more in the realms of, top 20-ish? It is pretty obvious that most Ultimate players were sleeping on Corrin for years. Back in 2020 when she got buffed I had high hopes for the character, but as Cosmos dropped her I fooled myself into thinking she wasn't that good... Neo and SHADIC proved me wrong (to be fair, SHADIC in 2020 was 13 years old, I'm glad to see he's been able to improve so much and become a top 50 player, and I think he has a real shot in 2020 of becoming a top 20 player).

I think long term, SHADIC and Neo will keep playing Corrin and keep doing well. Aaron seems to really enjoy the character, but it's unclear if he'll be able to replicate his Diddy results with Corrin (he has been playing Diddy since Smash 4, after all). Sparg0 has been using some Corrin but he has made statements before that makes it unclear if he wants to keep using her (since he thinks she might be a bit too similar to Aegis). I suppose it's possible he'll focus on Cloud and Corrin. Kurama has been using Corrin as a secondary but I have no idea if he plans to keep using her or not.

I think Corrin and Bayonetta are on the rise in 2024. I don't think it's necessarily because more people are picking up the characters, instead it's the mains doing better (Neo and SHADIC are both incredibly strong players, and Bayonetta has Lima, Bloom4Eva, and TamaPDaifuku, and Corrin as Ly outside of the top 100 and Bayonetta has Geist). Personally I think both might be top tier (with Bayonetta stronger than Corrin).

Corrin versus Aegis is a very interesting case. Aegis has the stronger neutral (with Mythra, anyways), but significantly worse disadvantage (especially recovery). Mythra can also struggle with killing, so Aegis players often opt to swap to Pyra, but Pyra's neutral and disadvantage are both really weak. Corrin doesn't have this issue, she can easily play neutral and get kills from just playing neutral (she's one of the better meta characters at killing, ESAM called her the second best in that regard, with Steve being #1). Corrin's disadvantage is also significantly stronger, with dair to mix up landings and recoveries, and many recovery options, fairly long recovery distance, and a recovery that's hard for many characters to challenge. Mythra does have Foresight though, which helps her a lot.

I think most people consider Corrin a high tier right now. It's probably going to take until late 2024 until she's considered a top tier (and it's entirely plausible that she'll never be considered a top tier, feels like it's up to SHADIC and Neo to prove it in the minds of most viewers/players, I suppose). Corrin has perhaps been the most underrated character during Ultimate's lifespan, being considered mid tier or even low tier for years, and even after the 2020 buffs I still heard people call her a mid tier. Bayonetta has also been underrated, but she was never considered a low tier at least.

Regarding Corrin/Aegis vs Sonic, I do think Corrin does better than Aegis, largely because Aegis gets edgeguarded way harder. Both do fairly well vs Sonic though.

Oh, regarding Snake, I think he's top 5.
 
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NairWizard

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Aaron has very unusual opinions. He has said Ice Climbers is top 5 as well, so I wouldn't put too much stock in his view of the game, since it's likely to significantly deviate from the perspective everyone else is coming into the tiering conversation with.

I think Corrin is the real deal. There's a case to be made that she's even stronger in this game compared to Smash 4 (after the nerfs in Smash 4, release Corrin was pretty busted). Aaron has been working on his Corrin and is considering becoming a Corrin main. He thinks Corrin is a top 10 character and he even consider the possibility of top 5 (he thinks she's better than both Cloud and Aegis, making her the best swordie). Personally I don't think she's quite that good, I'm thinking more in the realms of, top 20-ish? It is pretty obvious that most Ultimate players were sleeping on Corrin for years. Back in 2020 when she got buffed I had high hopes for the character, but as Cosmos dropped her I fooled myself into thinking she wasn't that good... Neo and SHADIC proved me wrong (to be fair, SHADIC in 2020 was 13 years old, I'm glad to see he's been able to improve so much and become a top 50 player, and I think he has a real shot in 2020 of becoming a top 20 player).
You seem very invested in Corrin's tier placement and it seems to largely stem from your decision to use the character, so let me offer a thought. It doesn't matter how good Corrin is, you will do very well with her if you keep playing her. There's so much to explore with the character, you will never cover all of it, so there's always more you can do to develop your Corrin and win against people you're losing against.

Even if Corrin shakes out to be mid or low tier, your decision to use her will still be justified. You're still going to do fine, and you're still going to beat top-tier mains using her.

Remember, at a local/regional level, any character can be top 5.
 

Hydreigonfan01

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Aug 24, 2018
Messages
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As we're talking about Corrin right now, RisterMice did a recap video on the regional where he used Sparg0's Corrin
 

Frihetsanka

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Even if Corrin shakes out to be mid or low tier, your decision to use her will still be justified.
I'm pretty sure I would drop her if I thought she were a mid tier or a low tier, but I'm not too worried, she's at the very least high tier.

Corrin is a character that both Smashboards and Reddit have had a long history of underestimating. I remember back in 2017 people here still thinking she was a mid tier just because Cosmos couldn't travel out of region yet... In Smash 4. And then she continued to be underrated in Ultimate (still is, but not as much as she used to be).

As an example: Check out the January/February 2021 Reddit tier list. Corrin had been buffed back in July 2020, to a point where she at the minimum should be in High Tier + and have a case for Top tier, yet Corrin was voted Mid tier+ and Lucina was voted Top tier.

Or the May/June 2022 Reddit tier list, where she's in Mid tier+ yet again (and Lucina demoted to High tier+). At least she got High tier+ in the most recent Reddit tier list.

Over the years, the most common argument for considering Corrin a mid tier has been her slightly below average mobility. It's a bit odd, since Corrin players generally don't consider it too big of a deal. I suppose another reason has been the lack of top players playing her: In Smash 4, while Frozen and Ryuga did reasonably well, it wasn't until Cosmos started travelling people realized that Corrin was actually really good (I know though, since I was a Corrin main myself and I had been watching VODs from Cosmos and other Corrin players, but most people probably never saw Corrin).

Ultimate didn't really get any strong Corrin mains until recently. While SHADIC has been playing her for quite some time he's also very young, he was only 13 years old back in 2020. Neo didn't really start competing until 2023 (with only a few tournaments in 2022 and two tournaments in 2021, one of them being the SWT: Japan Ultimate Online Qualifier where he got 17th, the first time I heard of him). Ly used to play more Byleth than Corrin and his Corrin has improved significantly over the last year or so.

I'm hoping 2024 will be the year Corrin really gets to shine. I'm optimistic, both Neo and SHADIC seem to be doing well and it's also possible some other top players will use her as a secondary (Sparg0, Aaron, Kurama). Aaron even talked about maining her. Fun fact: 2024 is the Year of the Dragon according to the Chinese zodiac.
 

NairWizard

Somewhere
Joined
Oct 28, 2014
Messages
1,892
Corrin is doing super well right now, but I do think people are playing the Corrin matchup terribly in general. I mean, it's no surprise, since as you alluded to, until recently, there was no reason to learn it. Corrin is definitely better than Byleth and Sephiroth and I think the character is great in general, among a pool of other very similarly great characters, but I also think that if there is a top level Corrin there is a mountain of counterplay waiting that hasn't been developed yet at all waiting to be learned.

I'm pretty sure I would drop her if I thought she were a mid tier or a low tier, but I'm not too worried, she's at the very least high tier.
This is what I don't get when you post, and why I'm confused sometimes by your posts.
Why would you drop her if she was mid or low tier?

Tier lists typically measure the value of a character in top 200 level play. No one in this thread is top 200 and it doesn't matter how good a character is at that level for any of us playing in bracket. What happens at top 10-level play does tend to trickle down over time, but it's a slow process, and the game has enough characters that you can still glide by playing whoever you want at your locals.

If Corrin is "low tier" it doesn't mean that your Corrin will do any worse.

To take a step back, I do not see a notable jump in my results when I go from using a top 60 character to a top 10 character. Do you? Has popular perception of Corrin improving actually improved your Corrin results?

Aegis was thought to be top 5 when they came out and recently they are dropping to top 10 and top 15. My Aegis has... played the same, all that time.

Sephiroth was thought to be top 10-15 when he released and now he's thought to be bottom half of the cast by many. My Sephiroth... has played the same, all that time. It probably wins more now than it did before overall.



To be fair to you, though, I do want to say that Corrin is cool and I'm glad your favorite is doing well.
 
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Hydreigonfan01

Smash Master
Joined
Aug 24, 2018
Messages
4,273
Results from Coinbox #88

1. Sparg0 :ultcorrinf: :ultgnw: :ultcloud:
2. Sonix :ultsonic:
3. ShinyMark :ultpikachu:
4. Maister :ultgnw:
5. Wrath :ultsonic: / JaZaR :ultdoc:
7. Lima :ultbayonetta: / JeJaJeJa :ultkirby:

Yes, the Sparg0 G&W is a thing, and Sparg0 used it to beat ShinyMark twice. ShinyMark also managed to beat Maister's G&W at the same tournament. So apparently Sparg0's G&W is better then Maister's in a certain matchup despite being a pocket at best...
 
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NairWizard

Somewhere
Joined
Oct 28, 2014
Messages
1,892
Yes, the Sparg0 G&W is a thing, and Sparg0 used it to beat ShinyMark twice. ShinyMark also managed to beat Maister's G&W at the same tournament. So apparently Sparg0's G&W is better then Maister's in a certain matchup despite being a pocket at best...
oh yeah, this is something I wanted to mention at some point too. This is cool to see.
sparg0's everything is super good just because of how fast he plays. sparg0's online Ironman runs go very deep too the few times he's done one.

like, if sparg0 picks up Simon, Richter, or Duck Hunt today, by the end of the week he'll be one of the best with them. It's not that he learns super fast, he just plays so fast.

sparg0 plays so fast that you can't even really punish his "wrong" decisions because he's already making the next decision by the time you realize he's made a mistake
 

Hippieslayer

Smash Ace
Joined
Aug 12, 2008
Messages
943
Location
Azeroth
I would like to object saying that Corrins meta can evolve in response to more developed counterplay. But I don't think it can. She's too simple.
 

Hydreigonfan01

Smash Master
Joined
Aug 24, 2018
Messages
4,273
I would like to object saying that Corrins meta can evolve in response to more developed counterplay. But I don't think it can. She's too simple.
I disagree, simple characters can still have their meta evolve in some way. G&W is the primary example, given that he went from being considered top 20 to top 5 because of Miya even when counterplay to how Maister plays G&W was being found.
 

Frihetsanka

Smash Champion
Joined
Apr 26, 2016
Messages
2,229
Location
Sweden
TL;DR: (More Corrin talk)

No one in this thread is top 200 and it doesn't matter how good a character is at that level for any of us playing in bracket.
I don't agree with this, I do think it matters. Some characters might be stronger at lower levels (like King Dedede or Bowser) and some might be weaker (like Joker or Pikachu) compared to top level, generally speaking, but relative strength still matters.

I think it's important to keep in mind that there is a difference between perceived tier list placement and actual tier list placement. Sephiroth is a good example of that. Many people, including me, thought Sephiroth was a top tier when he was released (and others thought he was a high tier or a mid tier). This didn't change his actual strength. I picked him up (thinking he was fun to play, and I still do, and thinking he was incredibly strong, but I don't anymore). I grinded him online for about a year, played two offline tournaments, and dropped him since I noticed significant flaws (mainly dying before getting wing being super stressful in bracket situations).

So, with your examples of Aegis and Sephiroth: Of course they'd play the same, they haven't been nerfed (well, technically Aegis was a little bit). People were mistaken at some point about their placements (either Aegis was overrated at top 5 or underrated at top 15).

If like, Reddit decides tomorrow that Corrin was overrated and carried by strong players and decide to rank her in mid tier, would that change my results? No, of course not. I would believe that Reddit is mistaken and underestimating her and I might be a bit annoyed with that (though granted, I also find it annoying when people overrate my main, which happened often back when I was a Lucina main).

In order for Corrin to actually be mid tier and not just perceived as such, I believe at least one of the following has to be true:

#1. I, and many other, severely overrate her for various reasons and she has greater flaws than we expected.
#2. The meta changes to make her bad MUs more common for some reason (like Sheik, Snake, and Sephiroth).
#3. We get a new patch that nerfs her.

#2 is an interesting point, by the way. How good a character is also depends on the environment it's played it. If your locals have a lot of Snakes and a lot of Sephiroths, Corrin is likely going to do worse than in locals filled with Marios and Min Mins. Even a Snake main might suffer in a local filled with Ness mains and G&W players. My locals happen to have a relatively hospitable environment for Corrin (the only MU I even consider slightly losing is Samus and maybe Ridley, otherwise it's all even or winning MUs for Corrin at my locals). So even if she were, hypothetically, a mid tier she might be a mid tier who would do well at my locals.

Anyways, I think it's largely hypothetical anyways. Corrin being a mid tier seems about as likely as Palutena, Wolf, or Roy being mid tiers (ie not very likely at all).

Oh, by the way: Back in 2020 Corrin got buffed. I thought the buffs were massive and thought it made her a high tier and really strong. While I had played around with her from time to time before then I thought she felt a bit too weak and needed some number adjustments to really shine, and well... Patch 8.0.0 sure gave her some number adjustments. Cosmos started playing her again and I picked her up too. I thought she was top 20 (Cosmos thought she was top 15) and about as good as in Smash 4. I had a lot of fun with her. Then December came and Sephiroth dropped. I thought he was top tier and really fun and stronger than Corrin, so I picked him up. As I mentioned, I played him for about a year and then dropped him and picked up Aegis. At the time I no longer thought Corrin was top 20 (Cosmos had dropped her and SHADIC was just 14-15 years old and Neo hadn't popped off yet).

I picked her up again in June 2023 (I thought she was around top 30 at the time). I'm looking back at some of my old Discord messages and seems I was toying with the idea in 2022 but ultimately didn't do it for three main reasons: One was that I thought Aegis was so much better, another was that I didn't really want to invest the time into making the swap (although admittedly Corrin would be easier to pick up than many others since I played her in the second half of 2020 and in Smash 4), and the third reason was that I enjoy having top players playing a character, and at the time it was mostly SHADIC doing well with her. In 2023 Neo changed that... Neo's early 2023 was really strong, and he ended up #33 in the mid-year rank, and #30 for the whole year. Having both Neo and SHADIC to watch (and SHADIC has been doing really well lately, he's starting to look like a top 30 player or maybe even top 20) is a privilege. Sparg0 and Aaron are nice too, although I'm not convinced either of them will stick with the character (but if they do that'd be super cool).

I thought Corrin was high tier back in 2022 but probably more like top 35-40. And now I think there's a case for top tier, (although I'm not sure, she could still be high tier, she's probably somewhere between #13 and #30, hah, so many variables).

Speaking of not being sure about tier placements, I made a list of which characters I think could be in which tier. This is not a tier list, and it is ordered alphabetically. Basically, I'm only sure about a few characters being in top/high/low tier. I'm not actually sure about a single character being in mid tier (some of they might be mid or secretly high tier, some might be low or mid tier). This should also not be considered ordered either, just because a character is in "Not sure if top tier or high tier" doesn't mean it's necessarily stronger than "I'm sure thery are high tier". Like, on my actual tier list I'd put Mii Brawler lower than Lucina, Sheik, and Zero Suit Samus, but I think there's a slight chance that ESAM and some other Mii Brawler optimists are right and that Brawler is a secret top tier (atm I don't think he is, though).
I don't think Banjo or Link are high tiers, but I could see them potentially being high tier when pushed to their limit. I could also see them potentially being low tier.

Based on this, I seem to think 29 characters have the potential to be top tier. I don't actually think all of them are top tier, though. And seems 61 characters could be high tier or higher, but yeah, I don't actually think that's the case.

Is Corrin top tier? I think she might be. It's also entirely plausible that she's high-high tier. Sparg0, when asked, said he doesn't think she's a top tier, he thinks high-high tier. Fair enough. Last I heard Neo also doesn't think she's top tier (he thinks Corrin players are really good though and are making her kind of seem like a top tier because of that). I don't know what SHADIC thinks but he's believed in Corrin for a long time (he thought she was a high tier before 8.0.0, and in retrospect it's possible he was right, she was certainly at least somewhat underrated at the time). Aaron thinks she's top 10 or top 5 (very optimistic, probably a bit too optimistic but maybe he's seeing something the rest of us aren't).

I'm still at the point where I'm pretty content with Corrin being placed in top 30. I'd like her to be placed higher, but I realize it's going to take some time to get over years of people viewing her as a mid tier.

I actually think Corrin might be better in this game compared to 4. She struggled more vs meta characters in 4 + many of the changes from 4 to Ultimate buffed her (patches included). That being said, she's deeper now compared to 4 and takes more effort to learn. She also doesn't gatekeep characters as much (I don't think she has any +3 MUs in this game while she had some in 4, pin kick away is not safe anymore and pin cancel/pin jump are strong but there is counter-play, so she can't destroy characters like Kirby or Ness quite as easily as in 4 anymore). Still, I believe she has a very favorable MU spread overall, and has the potential to be a top tier or at the very least a high tier.

TL;DR: (More Corrin talk)
 

Rizen

Smash Legend
Joined
May 7, 2009
Messages
14,873
Location
Colorado
TL;DR: (More Corrin talk)

I don't agree with this, I do think it matters. Some characters might be stronger at lower levels (like King Dedede or Bowser) and some might be weaker (like Joker or Pikachu) compared to top level, generally speaking, but relative strength still matters.

I think it's important to keep in mind that there is a difference between perceived tier list placement and actual tier list placement. Sephiroth is a good example of that. Many people, including me, thought Sephiroth was a top tier when he was released (and others thought he was a high tier or a mid tier). This didn't change his actual strength. I picked him up (thinking he was fun to play, and I still do, and thinking he was incredibly strong, but I don't anymore). I grinded him online for about a year, played two offline tournaments, and dropped him since I noticed significant flaws (mainly dying before getting wing being super stressful in bracket situations).

So, with your examples of Aegis and Sephiroth: Of course they'd play the same, they haven't been nerfed (well, technically Aegis was a little bit). People were mistaken at some point about their placements (either Aegis was overrated at top 5 or underrated at top 15).

If like, Reddit decides tomorrow that Corrin was overrated and carried by strong players and decide to rank her in mid tier, would that change my results? No, of course not. I would believe that Reddit is mistaken and underestimating her and I might be a bit annoyed with that (though granted, I also find it annoying when people overrate my main, which happened often back when I was a Lucina main).

In order for Corrin to actually be mid tier and not just perceived as such, I believe at least one of the following has to be true:

#1. I, and many other, severely overrate her for various reasons and she has greater flaws than we expected.
#2. The meta changes to make her bad MUs more common for some reason (like Sheik, Snake, and Sephiroth).
#3. We get a new patch that nerfs her.

#2 is an interesting point, by the way. How good a character is also depends on the environment it's played it. If your locals have a lot of Snakes and a lot of Sephiroths, Corrin is likely going to do worse than in locals filled with Marios and Min Mins. Even a Snake main might suffer in a local filled with Ness mains and G&W players. My locals happen to have a relatively hospitable environment for Corrin (the only MU I even consider slightly losing is Samus and maybe Ridley, otherwise it's all even or winning MUs for Corrin at my locals). So even if she were, hypothetically, a mid tier she might be a mid tier who would do well at my locals.

Anyways, I think it's largely hypothetical anyways. Corrin being a mid tier seems about as likely as Palutena, Wolf, or Roy being mid tiers (ie not very likely at all).

Oh, by the way: Back in 2020 Corrin got buffed. I thought the buffs were massive and thought it made her a high tier and really strong. While I had played around with her from time to time before then I thought she felt a bit too weak and needed some number adjustments to really shine, and well... Patch 8.0.0 sure gave her some number adjustments. Cosmos started playing her again and I picked her up too. I thought she was top 20 (Cosmos thought she was top 15) and about as good as in Smash 4. I had a lot of fun with her. Then December came and Sephiroth dropped. I thought he was top tier and really fun and stronger than Corrin, so I picked him up. As I mentioned, I played him for about a year and then dropped him and picked up Aegis. At the time I no longer thought Corrin was top 20 (Cosmos had dropped her and SHADIC was just 14-15 years old and Neo hadn't popped off yet).

I picked her up again in June 2023 (I thought she was around top 30 at the time). I'm looking back at some of my old Discord messages and seems I was toying with the idea in 2022 but ultimately didn't do it for three main reasons: One was that I thought Aegis was so much better, another was that I didn't really want to invest the time into making the swap (although admittedly Corrin would be easier to pick up than many others since I played her in the second half of 2020 and in Smash 4), and the third reason was that I enjoy having top players playing a character, and at the time it was mostly SHADIC doing well with her. In 2023 Neo changed that... Neo's early 2023 was really strong, and he ended up #33 in the mid-year rank, and #30 for the whole year. Having both Neo and SHADIC to watch (and SHADIC has been doing really well lately, he's starting to look like a top 30 player or maybe even top 20) is a privilege. Sparg0 and Aaron are nice too, although I'm not convinced either of them will stick with the character (but if they do that'd be super cool).

I thought Corrin was high tier back in 2022 but probably more like top 35-40. And now I think there's a case for top tier, (although I'm not sure, she could still be high tier, she's probably somewhere between #13 and #30, hah, so many variables).

Speaking of not being sure about tier placements, I made a list of which characters I think could be in which tier. This is not a tier list, and it is ordered alphabetically. Basically, I'm only sure about a few characters being in top/high/low tier. I'm not actually sure about a single character being in mid tier (some of they might be mid or secretly high tier, some might be low or mid tier). This should also not be considered ordered either, just because a character is in "Not sure if top tier or high tier" doesn't mean it's necessarily stronger than "I'm sure thery are high tier". Like, on my actual tier list I'd put Mii Brawler lower than Lucina, Sheik, and Zero Suit Samus, but I think there's a slight chance that ESAM and some other Mii Brawler optimists are right and that Brawler is a secret top tier (atm I don't think he is, though).
I don't think Banjo or Link are high tiers, but I could see them potentially being high tier when pushed to their limit. I could also see them potentially being low tier.

Based on this, I seem to think 29 characters have the potential to be top tier. I don't actually think all of them are top tier, though. And seems 61 characters could be high tier or higher, but yeah, I don't actually think that's the case.

Is Corrin top tier? I think she might be. It's also entirely plausible that she's high-high tier. Sparg0, when asked, said he doesn't think she's a top tier, he thinks high-high tier. Fair enough. Last I heard Neo also doesn't think she's top tier (he thinks Corrin players are really good though and are making her kind of seem like a top tier because of that). I don't know what SHADIC thinks but he's believed in Corrin for a long time (he thought she was a high tier before 8.0.0, and in retrospect it's possible he was right, she was certainly at least somewhat underrated at the time). Aaron thinks she's top 10 or top 5 (very optimistic, probably a bit too optimistic but maybe he's seeing something the rest of us aren't).

I'm still at the point where I'm pretty content with Corrin being placed in top 30. I'd like her to be placed higher, but I realize it's going to take some time to get over years of people viewing her as a mid tier.

I actually think Corrin might be better in this game compared to 4. She struggled more vs meta characters in 4 + many of the changes from 4 to Ultimate buffed her (patches included). That being said, she's deeper now compared to 4 and takes more effort to learn. She also doesn't gatekeep characters as much (I don't think she has any +3 MUs in this game while she had some in 4, pin kick away is not safe anymore and pin cancel/pin jump are strong but there is counter-play, so she can't destroy characters like Kirby or Ness quite as easily as in 4 anymore). Still, I believe she has a very favorable MU spread overall, and has the potential to be a top tier or at the very least a high tier.

TL;DR: (More Corrin talk)
I can't see:ultlink: being high tier. Link's never been particularly good. All the Links can seem really good if you don't know the MU, which is probably why Link was overrated early on, but Link has a lot of holes in his game plan. Link's a defensive character who is at his best if he's forcing the opponent to approach with projectiles and walling them with his sword. There are a lot of MUs where this doesn't happen and he finds himself having a terrible time. Falco's a good example of a character who really doesn't care about Link's gameplan because his reflector and laser, which is faster than anything Link has. If Link's forced to approach he's a slow moving target with poor frame data and a very slow dash attack. The same thing applies to characters who can out-spam him like the little Links: they force him to approach and tack on a ton of damage in the process. Link's projectiles aren't as fast and spammy as YL's. He also has glaring blind spots in his sword attacks and no fast ways to escape vortexes. All his sword aerial moves poke out in a single direction as opposed to say Lucina, who has big arcs. His f7 jab also hits low and his F15 Ftilt is too slow to really keep opponents out. This gives him a big blind-spot to SHing opponents trying to get in unless he can SH Fair, which is also slow. His Utilt is really good to help mitigate this but it's not enough. Characters like Sheik and the rats give him a terrible time. His Uair pokes strait up and gives him a poor juggle from underneath opponents. It was better when directional airdodges weren't a thing because it could outlast airdodges. His Usmash is huge but it's 3 cuts so if the opponent is on a platform they can get hit once then shield the final cuts.

As positives, his projectiles are very good at gimping opponents. Against large characters his Fair walls really well with 2 cuts similar to Marcina's Nairs except stronger. He has a great landing game with low lag sex kick Nair and Bair, which combos the first hit into Utilt. Bombs give him a finicky but pretty good recovery, although it's poor if you don't know the bomb strat. Dtilt got buffed to combo into aerial spin attack for kills. He probably does relatively well vs Steve.
 
Last edited:

NairWizard

Somewhere
Joined
Oct 28, 2014
Messages
1,892
TL;DR: (More Corrin talk)

I don't agree with this, I do think it matters. Some characters might be stronger at lower levels (like King Dedede or Bowser) and some might be weaker (like Joker or Pikachu) compared to top level, generally speaking, but relative strength still matters.

I think it's important to keep in mind that there is a difference between perceived tier list placement and actual tier list placement. Sephiroth is a good example of that. Many people, including me, thought Sephiroth was a top tier when he was released (and others thought he was a high tier or a mid tier). This didn't change his actual strength. I picked him up (thinking he was fun to play, and I still do, and thinking he was incredibly strong, but I don't anymore). I grinded him online for about a year, played two offline tournaments, and dropped him since I noticed significant flaws (mainly dying before getting wing being super stressful in bracket situations).

So, with your examples of Aegis and Sephiroth: Of course they'd play the same, they haven't been nerfed (well, technically Aegis was a little bit). People were mistaken at some point about their placements (either Aegis was overrated at top 5 or underrated at top 15).

If like, Reddit decides tomorrow that Corrin was overrated and carried by strong players and decide to rank her in mid tier, would that change my results? No, of course not. I would believe that Reddit is mistaken and underestimating her and I might be a bit annoyed with that (though granted, I also find it annoying when people overrate my main, which happened often back when I was a Lucina main).

In order for Corrin to actually be mid tier and not just perceived as such, I believe at least one of the following has to be true:

#1. I, and many other, severely overrate her for various reasons and she has greater flaws than we expected.
#2. The meta changes to make her bad MUs more common for some reason (like Sheik, Snake, and Sephiroth).
#3. We get a new patch that nerfs her.

#2 is an interesting point, by the way. How good a character is also depends on the environment it's played it. If your locals have a lot of Snakes and a lot of Sephiroths, Corrin is likely going to do worse than in locals filled with Marios and Min Mins. Even a Snake main might suffer in a local filled with Ness mains and G&W players. My locals happen to have a relatively hospitable environment for Corrin (the only MU I even consider slightly losing is Samus and maybe Ridley, otherwise it's all even or winning MUs for Corrin at my locals). So even if she were, hypothetically, a mid tier she might be a mid tier who would do well at my locals.

Anyways, I think it's largely hypothetical anyways. Corrin being a mid tier seems about as likely as Palutena, Wolf, or Roy being mid tiers (ie not very likely at all).

Oh, by the way: Back in 2020 Corrin got buffed. I thought the buffs were massive and thought it made her a high tier and really strong. While I had played around with her from time to time before then I thought she felt a bit too weak and needed some number adjustments to really shine, and well... Patch 8.0.0 sure gave her some number adjustments. Cosmos started playing her again and I picked her up too. I thought she was top 20 (Cosmos thought she was top 15) and about as good as in Smash 4. I had a lot of fun with her. Then December came and Sephiroth dropped. I thought he was top tier and really fun and stronger than Corrin, so I picked him up. As I mentioned, I played him for about a year and then dropped him and picked up Aegis. At the time I no longer thought Corrin was top 20 (Cosmos had dropped her and SHADIC was just 14-15 years old and Neo hadn't popped off yet).

I picked her up again in June 2023 (I thought she was around top 30 at the time). I'm looking back at some of my old Discord messages and seems I was toying with the idea in 2022 but ultimately didn't do it for three main reasons: One was that I thought Aegis was so much better, another was that I didn't really want to invest the time into making the swap (although admittedly Corrin would be easier to pick up than many others since I played her in the second half of 2020 and in Smash 4), and the third reason was that I enjoy having top players playing a character, and at the time it was mostly SHADIC doing well with her. In 2023 Neo changed that... Neo's early 2023 was really strong, and he ended up #33 in the mid-year rank, and #30 for the whole year. Having both Neo and SHADIC to watch (and SHADIC has been doing really well lately, he's starting to look like a top 30 player or maybe even top 20) is a privilege. Sparg0 and Aaron are nice too, although I'm not convinced either of them will stick with the character (but if they do that'd be super cool).

I thought Corrin was high tier back in 2022 but probably more like top 35-40. And now I think there's a case for top tier, (although I'm not sure, she could still be high tier, she's probably somewhere between #13 and #30, hah, so many variables).

Speaking of not being sure about tier placements, I made a list of which characters I think could be in which tier. This is not a tier list, and it is ordered alphabetically. Basically, I'm only sure about a few characters being in top/high/low tier. I'm not actually sure about a single character being in mid tier (some of they might be mid or secretly high tier, some might be low or mid tier). This should also not be considered ordered either, just because a character is in "Not sure if top tier or high tier" doesn't mean it's necessarily stronger than "I'm sure thery are high tier". Like, on my actual tier list I'd put Mii Brawler lower than Lucina, Sheik, and Zero Suit Samus, but I think there's a slight chance that ESAM and some other Mii Brawler optimists are right and that Brawler is a secret top tier (atm I don't think he is, though).
I don't think Banjo or Link are high tiers, but I could see them potentially being high tier when pushed to their limit. I could also see them potentially being low tier.

Based on this, I seem to think 29 characters have the potential to be top tier. I don't actually think all of them are top tier, though. And seems 61 characters could be high tier or higher, but yeah, I don't actually think that's the case.

Is Corrin top tier? I think she might be. It's also entirely plausible that she's high-high tier. Sparg0, when asked, said he doesn't think she's a top tier, he thinks high-high tier. Fair enough. Last I heard Neo also doesn't think she's top tier (he thinks Corrin players are really good though and are making her kind of seem like a top tier because of that). I don't know what SHADIC thinks but he's believed in Corrin for a long time (he thought she was a high tier before 8.0.0, and in retrospect it's possible he was right, she was certainly at least somewhat underrated at the time). Aaron thinks she's top 10 or top 5 (very optimistic, probably a bit too optimistic but maybe he's seeing something the rest of us aren't).

I'm still at the point where I'm pretty content with Corrin being placed in top 30. I'd like her to be placed higher, but I realize it's going to take some time to get over years of people viewing her as a mid tier.

I actually think Corrin might be better in this game compared to 4. She struggled more vs meta characters in 4 + many of the changes from 4 to Ultimate buffed her (patches included). That being said, she's deeper now compared to 4 and takes more effort to learn. She also doesn't gatekeep characters as much (I don't think she has any +3 MUs in this game while she had some in 4, pin kick away is not safe anymore and pin cancel/pin jump are strong but there is counter-play, so she can't destroy characters like Kirby or Ness quite as easily as in 4 anymore). Still, I believe she has a very favorable MU spread overall, and has the potential to be a top tier or at the very least a high tier.

TL;DR: (More Corrin talk)

Thanks for your perspective. I disagree that it really matters. There is a lot of room for meta development at the local level. Back in S4, where I could have pushed to top 100 if I really wanted, I was counterpicking local Luigis with Marios even though Mario-Luigi was a really bad matchup for Mario. I developed my playstyle around beating Luigi and grappler-style characters specifically, playing a strong anti-grab game. It would have taken a long time for the Luigis to develop counterplay to my style specifically, and it never happened at top level so there was nothing to trickle down to my level.

Every character except maybe the bottom 15 has a deep and interesting meta that you can develop in different directions. If I put 4 months into Corrin I'm pretty sure I could develop her in a direction where she could beat most Snake players and it would take too long for the Snake players to find counterplay for it to matter to me personally.

That's what I was getting at. A lot of your posts seem a little like you're trying to validate your choice to yourself. If I'm wrong about that, feel free to ignore me, but I wanted to say that you don't need to, you will do fine, just push yourself and your character.

I'm glad Corrin fits you.
 

Hippieslayer

Smash Ace
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I disagree, simple characters can still have their meta evolve in some way. G&W is the primary example, given that he went from being considered top 20 to top 5 because of Miya even when counterplay to how Maister plays G&W was being found.
I don't think GnW is simple. Fairly easy to play sure, but he has a very varied moveset. He's got plenty of unique moves. This is not the case with Corrin. Her bair, pin, and dragonfang shot are not quite vanilla but the rest of her kit is very traditional.

I guess I think that there's more ways for GnW players to have their own style compared to Corrin players and more room for GnW's meta to develop. Being slow also makes it so that you have to play a certain way to get around that, whereas GnW has great mobility both vertically and horizontally.
 
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Frihetsanka

Smash Champion
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Apr 26, 2016
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I can't see:ultlink: being high tier.
I don't think he is but there is some room for doubt in my mind that the character has secret sauce and is just lacking a top 30 player pushing him.

If I put 4 months into Corrin I'm pretty sure I could develop her in a direction where she could beat most Snake players and it would take too long for the Snake players to find counterplay for it to matter to me personally.
Interestingly enough, this seems to have been what Neo did. Snake-Corrin is really bad for Corrin, but Neo does really well vs Snake players (to the point where ApolloKage briefly considered the possibility of the MU being Even). I think I could beat everyone at my locals with Corrin (and interestingly enough, some of the hardest players to beat play characters that Corrin slightly beats or go even vs! MUs aren't everything, and player skill vs MUs also matter).

That's what I was getting at. A lot of your posts seem a little like you're trying to validate your choice to yourself. If I'm wrong about that, feel free to ignore me, but I wanted to say that you don't need to, you will do fine, just push yourself and your character.
I currently have no plans to drop Corrin. I think she's an underrated character and I did back in 2022 too, even when I wasn't playing her. I also think Bayonetta is an underrated character and I have virtually zero interest in picking her up.
 

NairWizard

Somewhere
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Oct 28, 2014
Messages
1,892
well, good! I hope you get far.

As a sword player, I think Corrin is roughly the same viability as Byleth, Sephiroth, Cloud, Roy, and Shulk. Which is to say, viable enough. Though I think a top 5 player solo maining her would feel a little held back, I think at top 200 level she's great, and at top 5000 level she's also pretty good.



Part of the reason Corrin has been "underrated" is that people were trying to space her aerials in neutral, hit shield, and then predict the next option. This works well with Lucina or Cloud but it doesn't work with Corrin. Corrin is a bit too slow for it, and gets chipped down by projectiles while trying to set this up.

You can't just space aerials. Use empty hops and movement to bait them into getting hit by Pin. Treat her like she's Sheik or Joker, or else you'll just get beaten down very hard in a lot of matchups imo.
 
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