Official Competitive Character Impressions 2.0

[NairWizard]

Kind of curious what MKLeo means by "understood what I was doing wrong before". Only thing that comes to mind is perhaps prioritizing staying center stage and controlling ledge rather than going for flashy edge guards since that seems to be a universal problem Aegis mains have had to this point, but I wouldn't know off-hand if that applied to Leo.

-swapping back and forth for the neutral timing mixups. Leo's Pyra/Mythra vs. Chag swapped every few seconds for the evasion frames without committing to a hitbox.
-Mythra fadeback in CQC neutral to dash back in and grab. Very effective, Leo used to prefer to play midrange instead of bursting out of short-range. Opens up Pyra dash in grab
-Pyra SH falling n-air mixups after shield pressure or baiting a dash. low n-air is very effective after Mythra conditioning.
-using Mythra's up-b to finish strings instead of juggling for more up-airs since you land first after up-b anyway.
-using Pyra aerials instead of tilts to ledgetrap, since more conditioning opens up with aerials than tilts (Mythra n-air requires a very different response to Pyra n-air but are spaced similarly). Leo used to use Mythra d-tilt and Pyra f-tilt, which have basically no conditioning overlap
-smarter recoveries with swap mixups

basically just focusing on conditioning the opponent with Mythra to open paths for Pyra, and vice-versa.

And of course slingshot is completely new

 

[Thinkaman]

Guys I'm pretty confident that Chrom Pichu Wolf Peach Olimar Pikachu Joker Hero Palu Pikachu Wario Pikachu Joker Pikachu Min Min ROB Pikachu Roy Pikachu Aegis Kazuya Aegis Kazuya Steve is a problem that needs to be addressed.

 

[MrGameguycolor]

Guys I'm pretty confident that Chrom Pichu Wolf Peach Olimar Pikachu Joker Hero Palu Pikachu Wario Pikachu Joker Pikachu ROB Pikachu Roy Pikachu Aegis Kazuya Aegis Kazuya Steve is a problem that needs to be addressed.

Damnit, he's figured it out.
We gotta do something :d

 

[KirbySquad101]

This post will sound a little shallow compared to NAirWizard's really solid write-up of MKLeo's Aegis, but if I were to put things into a layman's terms, I'd say he plays Mythra like a sword character the most out of any Pythra player.

That sounds silly at first, but if I recall how other Aegis mains play, their gameplan generally consists on getting the whiff punish with Mythra and then going to town with Pyra right after. Usually that gives other players the opportunity to get the drop on them should they mess up their dash attack callout (see LeoN vs. Sparg0 at Collision), but MKLeo didn't even let Maister or Chag have that with how passive and wall-based his Mythra was. Neither player's record has ever been great against Aegis, but against that type of play, I could tell they were especially ill-prepared.

That said, props to Maister for finally getting the dub on MKLeo and keeping his chin up even when getting washed the way he did in Grand Finals. He's looking like his top 10 self again, and if he can finally figure out his one of his biggest bracket demon's characters, then it's entirely possible the same holds true for the rest of MKLeo's characters, regardless of disparity in tiers between them.

 

[Rizen]

This post will sound a little shallow compared to NAirWizard's really solid write-up of MKLeo's Aegis, but if I were to put things into a layman's terms, I'd say he plays Mythra like a sword character the most out of any Pythra player.

That sounds silly at first, but if I recall how other Aegis mains play, their gameplan generally consists on getting the whiff punish with Mythra and then going to town with Pyra right after. Usually that gives other players the opportunity to get the drop on them should they mess up their dash attack callout (see LeoN vs. Sparg0 at Collision), but MKLeo didn't even let Maister or Chag have that with how passive and wall-based his Mythra was. Neither player's record has ever been great against Aegis, but against that type of play, I could tell they were especially ill-prepared.

That said, props to Maister for finally getting the dub on MKLeo and keeping his chin up even when getting washed the way he did in Grand Finals. He's looking like his top 10 self again, and if he can finally figure out his one of his biggest bracket demon's characters, then it's entirely possible the same holds true for the rest of MKLeo's characters, regardless of disparity in tiers between them.

What tournament was this?

 

[SapphSabre777]

What tournament was this?

COLOSSEL 2022, a major over in France, and the last of the Mexico crew's tournaments in their European tour: COLOSSEL 2022 | Details (start.gg)

 

[blackghost]

the aegis players seem to have finally concluded that its better to play both characters simultaneously rather than one at a time in predictable ways. IDK why it took so long we had the same debate with pokemon trainer early when some players didnt want to use certain pokemon.

aegis has the ability to mix someone while standing still that's an invaluable asset to have.

ESAM already did a breakdown on everything that the players that faced the Icies did wrong. still mindblown how an icies beat aegis that mu legit seems horrific. but if you dont know a mu you cant exploit anything. top players need to be better and less tweeting would be prefffered.

i need project L or sf6. i feel like im aging out of smash and its antics.

 

[Gearkeeper-8a]

ESAM already did a breakdown on everything that the players that faced the Icies did wrong. still mindblown how an icies beat aegis that mu legit seems horrific. but if you dont know a mu you cant exploit anything. top players need to be better and less tweeting would be prefffered.

i need project L or sf6. i feel like im aging out of smash and its antics.

Smash has been always like this, even the melee community drops their "adapt and learn the matchup metality" when hungrybox is on the screen.

We are doomers, we love to talk about how some problems will kill the game because otherwise the conversation is boring.

And 90% of the top players live in this mentality too, it could be to farming interactions or is a habit.

I dont know but since the beggining of this game we have this conversation about X killing ultimate.

How the community behaves makes more harm to the game, that any "broken" character.

The same happened in smash 4 we harrased bayo players, and were are doing the same thing in ultimate.

 

[NairWizard]

The same happened in smash 4 we harrased bayo players, and were are doing the same thing in ultimate.

Mostly agree with your post, but this part is sort of apples to oranges (or maybe apples to rotten apples). Bayo was so hard to watch that I actually quit playing smash 4 entirely because I got tired of seeing her, and I really liked watching and learning about that game despite all of its flaws until that time.

Bayo players never deserved harassment (no player, or person, does), but the character was so obscenely unfun to play against and watch that she really sucked the soul right out of the game.

You had to break your controller in half just for a chance to get out of 0 to deaths that started from your advantage state.

Ultimate, for all of its archetypal imbalances (e.g., swords), has no Smash 4 Bayos and will never have a Smash 4 Bayo. We should be quite happy with that.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Smash has been always like this, even the melee community drops their "adapt and learn the matchup metality" when hungrybox is on the screen.

We are doomers, we love to talk about how some problems will kill the game because otherwise the conversation is boring.

And 90% of the top players live in this mentality too, it could be to farming interactions or is a habit.

I dont know but since the beggining of this game we have this conversation about X killing ultimate.

How the community behaves makes more harm to the game, that any "broken" character.

The same happened in smash 4 we harrased bayo players, and were are doing the same thing in ultimate.

This largely happens due to the sheer amount of people who treat "Smash" or "Melee" or whatever as a personal philosophy instead of a game.

Like there's some purity of what Smash is supposed to be at its core and anything that deviates from that is a sin.

I haven't heard other fighting game communities treat their games this way. Even something as beloved as Street Fighter II or Marvel vs Capcom 2.

 

[Gearkeeper-8a]

Mostly agree with your post, but this part is sort of apples to oranges (or maybe apples to rotten apples). Bayo was so hard to watch that I actually quit playing smash 4 entirely because I got tired of seeing her, and I really liked watching and learning about that game despite all of its flaws until that time.

Bayo players never deserved harassment (no player, or person, does), but the character was so obscenely unfun to play against and watch that she really sucked the soul right out of the game.

You had to break your controller in half just for a chance to get out of 0 to deaths that started from your advantage state.

Ultimate, for all of its archetypal imbalances (e.g., swords), has no Smash 4 Bayos and will never have a Smash 4 Bayo. We should be quite happy with that.

Thats the thing, we as a community should have learning that harrasing players for their character choice was bad when bayo players were being made fun of, but we are doing the same in another game and even some top players are joining.

 

[NairWizard]

Thats the thing, we as a community should have learning that harrasing players for their character choice was bad when bayo players were being made fun of, but we are doing the same in another game and even some top players are joining.

Besides Twitch chat nonsense and randoms, who's harassing the Steve players? I haven't seen a single top player tweet aimed at any of them in particular.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Besides Twitch chat nonsense and randoms, who's harassing the Steve players? I haven't seen a single top player tweet aimed at any of them in particular.

Yonni actually got bullied off of Twitter.

 

[blackghost]

Besides Twitch chat nonsense and randoms, who's harassing the Steve players? I haven't seen a single top player tweet aimed at any of them in particular.

You aren't paying attention then acola had issues as well and people used every excuse to try and deligitimize his win. Some players were sarcastic online as well. Which even if they weren't trying to be funny it opens the door. Even the commentators during high level Steve players matches can seem like backhanded complements.

Players don't know the matchup. They don't know the icies matchup either. All the rare characters seem be treated as unknowns and outside of a few top players (namely the two Mexican terrors) tr communities fundamentals are not strong enough to use as a base vs unknown matchups.

I'm not going into smash 4 bayo right now. It's a holiday. But I do enjoy how everytime seone posts about her here she's seemingly gets better and better. Killing you out of your advantage state? Ironically the only character I recall having that happen to them is bayo herself. And I've seen it happen in ultimate as well.

 

[Emblem Lord]

People need to shut the **** up and counter pick.

 

[Hydreigonfan01]

People need to shut the **** up and counter pick.

Kola plays Steve's worst MU in and still loses to Onin and acola same with Tweek who plays and lost to Yonni. Counterpicking to a matchup that Steve loses isn't exactly going to work unless you put in sufficient time into the character.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Kola plays Steve's worst MU in and still loses to Onin and acola same with Tweek who plays and lost to Yonni. Counterpicking to a matchup that Steve loses isn't exactly going to work unless you put in sufficient time into the character.

Heaven forbid competitive players actually put in the work rather than ********.

It's not like they are trying to win money or anything.

 

[NairWizard]

I think Hydregonfan's point is that Kola is one of the best Clouds in the world, and Tweek is one of the best Sephiroths. If the best mains of those characters can't win the matchup consistently, it can't be enough of a blowout to justify a counterpick for other players (like, you think for example Dabuz is going to be able to play a better Cloud in the MU than Kola? of course not).

You're better off changing your playstyle to deal with Steve than you are picking up a brand new character, imo.

We had this same conversation about Game and Watch ages ago. People were saying that you should pick up a sword to counter Game and Watch if your character loses the matchup or if you play an aggressive character. But we've seen that Kola and Light can both get through that matchup with their aggressive mains. Playstyle shifts are sufficient.

Every good character has the tools. People are just very stubborn about their playstyle.

 

[Sucumbio]

Just the... Bair necessities.

Esam tier list by bair.

 

[Hydreigonfan01]

Just the... Bair necessities.

View attachment 356143

BTW, as this wasn't mentioned, it's ESAM's back air tier list.

 

[Sucumbio]

Gap is empty meaning it's better to just not play than to use robin/mac bair

 

[Linkmain-maybe]

Just the... Bair necessities.

View attachment 356143
Esam tier list by bair.

Hero casually having some of the worst normals in the game

 

[F4lcoMain]

Just the... Bair necessities.

View attachment 356143
Esam tier list by bair.

I think Falco's Bair is kinda "busted", but that might be due to his attributes + kit. Up-Tilt -> Back Air is really good kill confirm, as is Down Air + Bair, but those are exclusive things he's got. I sometimes do Slingshot bair after D-Throw as a follow-up, but that's kinda a gimmick and not something most characters would have access too.

The one broken application of Falco's Bair is the "Cae Bair" where you hit the opponent with the weak hit of Bair in a short hop while still reaching the auto cancel window after a fastfall. This gives Falco a massive frame advantage on the opponent (I think its like 20 frames?). Its extremely hard for me to land consistently though so I kinda never use it. However others who have mastered this tech say its vital to Falco's gameplain.

 

[Hydreigonfan01]

BTW ESAM does his bair tier lists based on how good they'd be on other characters, not just the actual main. It's in a vacuum, not based on the characters kit.

 

[Sucumbio]

I wanna tier list that's both fair and bair ... Like fox bair > ... Many other bairs and a bunch of fairs... Like that ... I may even pay him so I can ask and get bodied in a WiFi match to boot.

 

[Hippieslayer]

Smash has been always like this, even the melee community drops their "adapt and learn the matchup metality" when hungrybox is on the screen.

We are doomers, we love to talk about how some problems will kill the game because otherwise the conversation is boring.

And 90% of the top players live in this mentality too, it could be to farming interactions or is a habit.

I dont know but since the beggining of this game we have this conversation about X killing ultimate.

How the community behaves makes more harm to the game, that any "broken" character.

The same happened in smash 4 we harrased bayo players, and were are doing the same thing in ultimate.

Partly disagree. Bayo was horrible and is still a badly designed character despite being a lot worse. Having to mash SDI for extended periods of time is stupid and unnatural and should not be a thing. And there are lots of other characters which play or force their opponents to play in ways that are unenjoyable for the players and/or viewers, complaining about them is a totally legit in my book. Yeah its a subjective opinion about what smash should and should not be, but come on, we want a game thats fun to play and fun to watch and characters which a lot of people find lame and stupid work against that.

The issue is not the complaining, it's that it's exaggerated. The word "broken" is used too much. Things can be problematic and bad even if its fully possible to adapt to them. I think it's at least partly good in the long run that all of this is said because it's also heard to some degree.

Harassing specific players is garbage behavior though. But what can you do? People are people.

Btw jesus christ what a garbage bair tier list. Esam says he judges moves in a vacuum but it really doesn't look like he does when you look at his lists. Wolf Bair in top 5? Come on man.

One another note: Counterpicking is overrated. And trying to cover as many matchups as you can with your mains is overrated too. If you look at succesful dual or triple or whatever mainers what they do is play somewhat similar characters that they sync with naturally and are able to swap between easily without having to do too much mental adjustment. And they use the swapping to throw their opponents off moreso than to counterpick them. Took Tweek a long time to figure this out. But he figured it out before Charles did which kinda makes me question Charles competence as a coach.

 

[F4lcoMain]

Partly disagree. Bayo was horrible and is still a badly designed character despite being a lot worse. Having to mash SDI for extended periods of time is stupid and unnatural and should not be a thing. And there are lots of other characters which play or force their opponents to play in ways that are unenjoyable for the players and/or viewers, complaining about them is a totally legit in my book. Yeah its a subjective opinion about what smash should and should not be, but come on, we want a game thats fun to play and fun to watch and characters which a lot of people find lame and stupid work against that.

The issue is not the complaining, it's that it's exaggerated. The word "broken" is used too much. Things can be problematic and bad even if its fully possible to adapt to them. I think it's at least partly good in the long run that all of this is said because it's also heard to some degree.

Harassing specific players is garbage behavior though. But what can you do? People are people.

Btw jesus christ what a garbage bair tier list. Esam says he judges moves in a vacuum but it really doesn't look like he does when you look at his lists. Wolf Bair in top 5? Come on man.

One another note: Counterpicking is overrated. And trying to cover as many matchups as you can with your mains is overrated. If you look at succesful dual or triple or whatever mainers what they do is play somewhat similar characters that they sync with naturally and are able to swap between easily without having to do too much mental adjustment. And they use the swapping to throw their opponents off moreso than to counterpick them. Took Tweek a long time to figure this out. But he figured it out before Charles did which kinda makes me question Charles competence as a coach.

Yeah I was thinking Wolf's was kinda high. The move is def really good on wolf, but I think that's due to his air speed.

Can't say too much on counterpicking, but I'll say that focusing only on Falco rather than co-maining him w/ several other character I like has helped me improve a lot at this game, even if I still don't know what I'm doing in neutral.

 

[NairWizard]

I'm betting that we're going to see the return of Leo's Joker this weekend. He has been hard-grinding the Joker and it looks extremely clean.

 

[Hippieslayer]

Yeah I was thinking Wolf's was kinda high. The move is def really good on wolf, but I think that's due to his air speed.

Can't say too much on counterpicking, but I'll say that focusing only on Falco rather than co-maining him w/ several other character I like has helped me improve a lot at this game, even if I still don't know what I'm doing in neutral.

Yeh it complements his kit nicely, but there are a ton of way better bairs. The list is filled with super weird placings that demonstrate his inability to view the moves in a vacuum. It's not all bad. He does get a lot of stuff right too and obviously he does have a deep understanding of the game. He's just so weirdly inconsistent in his takes.

Look at where he placed Sephiroths bair too. I know that move benefits a lot from Seph's shortjump but even on its own it's a godlike move, and most other characters would benefit greatly from having it. But he thinks Wolfs bair is two tiers above Seph's? Like wth man? In general he overrates bairs that are made good by the properties of the characters using them and underrates the bairs of characters with worse properties.

 

[KirbySquad101]

Two fun facts about the tournament posted below this:

• This is the second offline tourney Miya has ever attended ever since his Wi-Fi dominance, the first being Maesuma TOP 8. Despite his underperformance there, he ends up placing 1st at this tournament, most notably reverse 3-0'ing Yn after being down two games and proceeding to defeat Asimo - first in a fairly close 3-1 WFs set, and second in an absolutely dominant 3-0 GFs set.
• This is the first offline tournament acola has ever attended where he's placed outside of top 2, placing 4th after getting upsetted early by a named Kashiya and being eliminated by alice , who showed an even greater knowledge of the MU than both Kola or Goblin.

Results for Maesuma Offline ft. Zenisuma & Mamebura:

1. Miya
2. Asimo
3. alice
4. acola
5. Yn
5. Mottsuan
7. Marl
7. Kashiya
9. Kyon
9. Senra
9. Eupho
9. Croske
13. Perica
13. Suganandesu
13. Ohtaku
13. Banniki

Link to the entire tournament stream:

alice vs Asimo (WSF) begins 2:03:50
Miya vs Yn begins 2:29:20
Miya vs Asimo (WF) begins 3:00:44
acola vs alice begins 3:20:49
alice vs Asimo (LF) begins 3:40:40
Miya vs Asimo (GF) begins 3:56:27

 

[Hydreigonfan01]

Miya has the potential to be the number 2 GnW behind Maister.

 

[NairWizard]

Acola losing to a Roy after Kola says that Fighters Pass 2 makes Roy an obsolete character is just evidence of the point. It's all playstyle. Most characters are fast enough in this game and jumpsquat is 3 frames. Unless you play Kirby, you can do it, you can grind out almost any matchup.

 

[SKX31]

Long post incoming, because Double Down is...

I'll let the reddit post speak for itself.

Spoiler: Because this one is ridicolously long

https://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/comments/vv6mnv

I did not have "Riddles, Dabuz and Chag getting sent to Loser's in Pools" on my Double Down bingo card.

 

[blackghost]

ESAM might have odd tier placements sometimes. but he is spot on with many of the top players in the community.

kola, riddles, and many many others have not put the time in to be consistent players in this game. they dont know their matchups.
guys like protoman, leo, and spargo have and it shows. I dont think thier is a mentality difference between some top players and twitch chat. and there should be.

protoman destroyed the best bayo in europe, a guy that just beat gluttony, easily.

 

[The_Bookworm]

Here is our sets for tomorrow (or I guess later today at the time of posting this lol).


Winner's Top 8
MkLeo vs Tea
ProtoBanham vs KEN


Loser's Top 12
Shuton vs Kola
Jake vs Gackt
Sonix vs Dabuz
ApolloKage vs Jakal


Japan is reigning supreme today.

Btw, Leo's Corrin, Proto's Lucina, and Shuton's Aegis only saw use (on-stream) during pools. It has been Byleth, Min Min, and Olimar for most the bracket for them.
Conversely, Ken's Sephiroth and Kola's Cloud came in only at their last sets, but it was definitely important in proceeding them through the bracket.

Btw, I have never seen the Green Goblin turn on and off repeatedly for Cosmos as much as his set vs Kola. Sometimes he plays godlike, other times he plays like a bot. Kola wasn't playing so hot either, so the set came a lot closer.

 

[Nobie]

I have never seen anyone shut Minecart down as thoroughly as Protobanham did in that match with Jake. It feels like a strat only Min Min could do, but I wonder if there's a broader lesson that can be taken away.

 

[Iron Maw]

I have never seen anyone shut Minecart down as thoroughly as Protobanham did in that match with Jake. It feels like a strat only Min Min could do, but I wonder if there's a broader lesson that can be taken away.

That in general long disjoints and counters are re cart's bane. If your character doesn't have at least one of those traits in their kit, you're in for bad time. Here is one example just from last week.

If Mkleo faces off against Jake tomorrow with Byleth that's certainly going be one of factors in his win. Anycase Steve really nowhere the problem the whiners make him out to be that only getting proven more and more as time goes on as more players who learn the matchup properly do well.

 

[Hydreigonfan01]

ESAM might have odd tier placements sometimes. but he is spot on with many of the top players in the community.

kola, riddles, and many many others have not put the time in to be consistent players in this game. they dont know their matchups.
guys like protoman, leo, and spargo have and it shows. I dont think thier is a mentality difference between some top players and twitch chat. and there should be.

protoman destroyed the best bayo in europe, a guy that just beat gluttony, easily.

Kola hasn't gotten a bad result since Port Priority 6, rarely ever missing top 8 after that. Kola is not inconsistent anymore. He used to be, but now he's one of the most consistent players. I'd argue Riddles was consistent after Glitch Infinite until just now.

 

[blackghost]

Kola hasn't gotten a bad result since Port Priority 6, rarely ever missing top 8 after that. Kola is not inconsistent anymore. He used to be, but now he's one of the most consistent players. I'd argue Riddles was consistent after Glitch Infinite until just now.

I can't remember who kola faced in those results but if he didn't face a rare character it wouldn't surprise me. That performance from kola vs snake was rough and we all know his issues with steve. With kola he knows his common characters, it the characters he cant bully rushdown he struggles with what to do.

also question does this event show the world doesnt have a steve problem, but US does? I cant even say NA as a whole. Acola is clealry the best one as of now but this character is not some unbeatable monster.

 

[NairWizard]

Stay safe if you're at Double Down. A lot of sickness going around; even Hungrybox and Leo seem pretty sick. Not sure we'll see quality sets today if it's as widespread as I'm hearing, but the more important thing is that if you're there, your first priority should be yourself and your family. Mask up and if you're at heightened risk just leave the venue, don't risk it for this event.