Official Competitive Character Impressions 2.0

[The_Bookworm]

Double Down 2022

1st: ProtoBanham
2nd: MkLeo
3rd: Tea
4th: Dabuz (SmashWiki says Dabuz used Min Min, not sure when)
5th: KEN
5th: Kola
7th: Jakal
7th: Jake
9th: ApolloKage
9th: Sonix
9th: Gackt
9th: Shuton

Spoiler: Top 24

13th: Shogun
13th: Cosmos
13th: Kurama
13th: Bloom4Eva

17th: MVD
17th: Rocke
17th: T3 DOM
17th: Aaron
17th: Ned
17th: Kome
17th: BassMage
17th: Jahzz0

Spoiler: Top 48

25th: Lui$
25th: Scend
25th: Ling
25th: Riddles
25th: Chag
25th: Axel~
25th: frawg
25th: NaetorU

33rd: Tarik
33rd: Skyjay
33rd: Shoe
33rd: Goblin
33rd: yonni
33rd: Zomba
33rd: Niko
33rd: Marss
33rd: H4DS
33rd: DDog
33rd: Smirk
33rd: varun
33rd: Mugen
33rd: 0mart
33rd: Justice
33rd: jaredisking1

Spoiler: Top 96

49th: RyuKai
49th: enhancedpv
49th: Nitox
49th: Neeroz
49th: BigBoss
49th: Zinoto
49th: thirty4
49th: Marvelous_Marco
49th: Lea
49th: VoiD
49th: SHADIC
49th: Colorondo8
49th: loaf
49th: AC
49th: Cesar
49th: Cyro

65th: Fatality
65th: Nito
65th: Raflow
65th: TriM
65th: Kazma
65th: Stroder
65th: Quinn
65th: MPg
65th: Ikan
65th: OursOuzbek
65th: Comet
65th: Linky
65th: Peckham
65th: Andrik
65th: Sticccy
65th: Cleytito
65th: Yoda Cage
65th: Shangrai
65th: SpeedyBlueDude
65th: Capsize
65th: pokepen
65th: Midnight
65th: umanz
65th: VaLoR
65th: Yrneh
65th: Ignaize
65th: IllusioN
65th: spot
65th: Teaser
65th: Oryon
65th: Burst
65th: MoDzai

The counterpick wars was crazy at the top 6.
Also, Leo just kinda plays whoever he likes and still wins in the end. I was not expecting the R.O.B. from a few months ago to return in grand fashion.

But alas, it would appear that MkLeo's troubles with Min Min continues. Proto was playing at a different plane of existence.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Proto's mashing is... otherworldly.

Well earned win! Proto played out of his mind and shut down a lot of players. Jake got demolished and even MKLeo fell. Proto is arguably one of the best Ultimate players period.

 

[Hydreigonfan01]

I feel like no one in NA is prepared for Proto's Min Min at all, even after the nerfs. Everyone got destroyed by that character other then KEN, who lost to the Lucina. It's such a good character combination.

Leo's ROB is extremely clean and has improved a lot compared to his set against Chag at that Cuba tournament. It's a good counterpick character against Min Min tbh, but Proto has so much Zackray experience.

 

[NairWizard]

Great Grand Finals, was worth the late-night watch. Min Min is still great and Proto is a spacing master.

One thing I don't understand is why Leo thinks his Joker isn't ready/doesn't want to use it. If you watch him play Joker it clearly looks like his best character, even better than his Byleth, and he's said as much from time to time after slingshot emerged. It was definitely ready, and he didn't need the basic ROB (as hype as it was).

Leo tweeted something about how he "doesn't feel like playing at 100%."

What is this? It sounds like it's out of some anime or manga, kinda like "you're not worthy of my final form, it's too much effort."

Honestly baffling and not sure what to make of it.

Meanwhile, we should be talking about Dabuz. What a legendary losers run. How are people feeling about Rosalina?

 

[Arthur97]

Great Grand Finals, was worth the late-night watch. Min Min is still great and Proto is a spacing master.

One thing I don't understand is why Leo thinks his Joker isn't ready/doesn't want to use it. If you watch him play Joker it clearly looks like his best character, even better than his Byleth, and he's said as much from time to time after slingshot emerged. It was definitely ready, and he didn't need the basic ROB (as hype as it was).

Leo tweeted something about how he "doesn't feel like playing at 100%."

What is this? It sounds like it's out of some anime or manga, kinda like "you're not worthy of my final form, it's too much effort."

Honestly baffling and not sure what to make of it.

Meanwhile, we should be talking about Dabuz. What a legendary losers run. How are people feeling about Rosalina?

Maybe he just doesn't want to play Joker and enjoys the others more. People should really accept that he may never go back. Let the man do what he wants. Why is it people seem so fixated on him playing Joker?

 

[NairWizard]

Maybe he just doesn't want to play Joker and enjoys the others more. People should really accept that he may never go back. Let the man do what he wants. Why is it people seem so fixated on him playing Joker?

? He's literally practicing it and made it into his best character with tons of grinding over the last couple of months. It's not about him wanting him to play it, it's wondering why he's sharpened a blade that he won't use, even backed into a corner.

It's one thing to play some secondary in a few friendlies and then not touch it.

It's another to develop a character to the point where you're destroying Gluto, Sisqui, eMass, Shuton and Proto with it (in the crew battle, Leo 2-stocked both of them with Joker!), and then never touch it in bracket. It was definitely ready, but I can't figure out if Leo is saving it for a more important tournament or doesn't want to unveil it until he masters some weird slingshot applications.

There is something big simmering there, you can see it when he plays Joker.

 

[Sucumbio]

Meanwhile, we should be talking about Dabuz. What a legendary losers run. How are people feeling about Rosalina?

I've always felt she's top tier at least in his hands.

Meta wise not quite as painful as Palutena but just as respectable. But I also think zss is along these 2 as is Peach. The 4 pillars holding up Aegis on a weighty pedestal.

 

[Arthur97]

? He's literally practicing it and made it into his best character with tons of grinding over the last couple of months. It's not about him wanting him to play it, it's wondering why he's sharpened a blade that he won't use, even backed into a corner.

It's one thing to play some secondary in a few friendlies and then not touch it.

It's another to develop a character to the point where you're destroying Gluto, Sisqui, eMass, Shuton and Proto with it (in the crew battle, Leo 2-stocked both of them with Joker!), and then never touch it in bracket. It was definitely ready, but I can't figure out if Leo is saving it for a more important tournament or doesn't want to unveil it until he masters some weird slingshot applications.

There is something big simmering there, you can see it when he plays Joker.

Again, maybe he just doesn't want to, and hyping it up is pointless. If he uses him, fine, if not, fine. He can practice all he wants, but it seems he just doesn't enjoy it so that may be all there is to it. He doesn't want to.

 

[Hydreigonfan01]

I've always felt she's top tier at least in his hands.

Meta wise not quite as painful as Palutena but just as respectable. But I also think zss is along these 2 as is Peach. The 4 pillars holding up Aegis on a weighty pedestal.

I don't think Rosalina comes anywhere close to those characters. There's a reason it is literally just Dabuz playing her. High tier for sure, but Dabuz doesn't just use Rosa, he has 2 other characters he can pop out at anytime in Olimar and Min Min. Rosa struggles in some matchups against the good characters, and when Luma is gone (which is quite often) she's a lot worse.

Her light, floaty nature while being tall is also a very exploitable weakness, similarly to .

 

[Sucumbio]

I don't think Rosalina comes anywhere close to those characters. There's a reason it is literally just Dabuz playing her. High tier for sure, but Dabuz doesn't just use Rosa, he has 2 other characters he can pop out at anytime in Olimar and Min Min. Rosa struggles in some matchups against the good characters, and when Luma is gone (which is quite often) she's a lot worse.

Her light, floaty nature while being tall is also a very exploitable weakness, similarly to .

Awww but I love watching him use her. Besides I think by top tier I mean any mix will net you wins but it sounds more like she belongs in Byleth's tier ... Dominant in one user and still needs backup. This saddens me.

 

[NairWizard]

On Twitter, you shouldn't question top players about their character choice. They can play whatever they want.

But here, in this thread, the whole point is to discuss meta trends and character choices. To know about meta trends, to predict them, observe them, and understand them, you have to speculate on why players did or didn't use characters. "Why did Dabuz go mostly Rosalina?" is an important question that has some answers in Dabuz' mood and inclinations, but also could provide an indicator of meta trends.

Olimar was doing very well in the top-level meta a while ago, but now that there are more Steves and Sonics doing well, it could be that Rosalina is the better choice--or, another possible explanation is that sick Lumalanding up-smash thing that Dabuz was doing; I have no idea what tech that even was, but it looked like the best burst up-smash in the game. Perhaps Rosalina's better zonebreaking at kill percents makes her the clear choice right now. But either way it's a question we should probably be asking.

The same questions should be asked about Leo's ROB and Joker. Leo using ROB is the story of the weekend--more than Dabuz' Rosalina or Proto's Min Min, even though Proto literally won the tournament. If you look around the Internet, though, it doesn't even look like Proto won, because most of the attention is on that ROB! Clearly, it was a big moment, for the crowd and for the meta.

Figuring out why this ROB came out instead of the Joker is interesting and possibly insightful.

My own take on it is that Joker didn't come out because Tea's Kazuya during the crew battle made Leo rethink his plans. Joker's advantage state hasn't fully caught up to the latest advantage-state monsters in the meta, unless you can pull off some high-precision strings into delicately placed Arsenes. ROB's advantage state is much easier and execution-friendly by comparison. ROB gives up some things that Joker has easy access to--playstyle variability, for example. ROB only really plays neutral in one of two ways, and with a handful of tools. But ROB was still chosen here, for a matchup where neutral is everything. That says something to me.

In some ways, this was just a random Min Min counterpick, but the ROB choice is also an indicator that easy, strong advantage states like ROB's are accelerating past the importance of versatility in neutral, at least against zoners. The same trend could apply to anti-Steve counterplay.

After all, who beat Acola this last weekend? A Roy and a Falco.

 

[Frihetsanka]

High tier for sure, but Dabuz doesn't just use Rosa, he has 2 other characters he can pop out at anytime in Olimar and Min Min.

Dabuz put her in mid tier in his two latest tier lists. He's not solo maining her (thus avoiding some of her worst matchups) and not many other people are getting results with Rosalina.

As for MkLeo, he said on Twitter that he doesn't feel like playing Joker right now.

 

[NotLiquid]

On Twitter, you shouldn't question top players about their character choice. They can play whatever they want.

But here, in this thread, the whole point is to discuss meta trends and character choices. To know about meta trends, to predict them, observe them, and understand them, you have to speculate on why players did or didn't use characters. "Why did Dabuz go mostly Rosalina?" is an important question that has some answers in Dabuz' mood and inclinations, but also could provide an indicator of meta trends.

Olimar was doing very well in the top-level meta a while ago, but now that there are more Steves and Sonics doing well, it could be that Rosalina is the better choice--or, another possible explanation is that sick Lumalanding up-smash thing that Dabuz was doing; I have no idea what tech that even was, but it looked like the best burst up-smash in the game. Perhaps Rosalina's better zonebreaking at kill percents makes her the clear choice right now. But either way it's a question we should probably be asking.

The same questions should be asked about Leo's ROB and Joker. Leo using ROB is the story of the weekend--more than Dabuz' Rosalina or Proto's Min Min, even though Proto literally won the tournament. If you look around the Internet, though, it doesn't even look like Proto won, because most of the attention is on that ROB! Clearly, it was a big moment, for the crowd and for the meta.

Figuring out why this ROB came out instead of the Joker is interesting and possibly insightful.

My own take on it is that Joker didn't come out because Tea's Kazuya during the crew battle made Leo rethink his plans. Joker's advantage state hasn't fully caught up to the latest advantage-state monsters in the meta, unless you can pull off some high-precision strings into delicately placed Arsenes. ROB's advantage state is much easier and execution-friendly by comparison. ROB gives up some things that Joker has easy access to--playstyle variability, for example. ROB only really plays neutral in one of two ways, and with a handful of tools. But ROB was still chosen here, for a matchup where neutral is everything. That says something to me.

In some ways, this was just a random Min Min counterpick, but the ROB choice is also an indicator that easy, strong advantage states like ROB's are accelerating past the importance of versatility in neutral, at least against zoners. The same trend could apply to anti-Steve counterplay.

After all, who beat Acola this last weekend? A Roy and a Falco.

I feel like there's one caveat to be made with that assertion about the easy/strong advantage aspect being the play against Steve.

Despite everything, Steve's neutral feels like something that's conceptually intended to be the Achilles heel for the character. He has no projectile, his movement is weak, he has (usually) stubby range, he only has one ranged option/burst option for movement, and his solution to approach is to effectively "stop" people from moving. But the way all that is actually designed runs particularly counter to what's in vogue in the present meta. His obscene frame data outboxes and punishes almost everyone in the cast, and him being able to condition players into where he wants to be makes movement, microspacing and footsies against him so immaculately precise.

Jake is no Acola, but he's certainly an extremely strong player, and after his loss he tweeted that he felt Min Min is probably Steve's worst MU as of currently. The funny thing is I can see the argument for it. Min Min's advantage is solid and simple, if not occasionally precision driven, so she certainly reaps the benefits of that, but the chief thing really boils down to the fact that Min Min does not care about Steve's brand of neutral at all. She not only covers virtually all of his angles, she's also able to safely swat blocks without having to be overly precise with spacing. The usual disadvantage woes are also kind of psychologically diminished in a way, because Steve pushing advantage makes just about every character look like they have a bad disadvantage state.

Kola kind of highlighted the value of that neutral strength even further. Cloud often has to win neutral a lot compared to other top tiers, but that barely matters when he's a character designed to win neutral at that close-to-mid range proximity which Steve seems to want people to generally move out of. If Min Min isn't Steve's worst MU, then Cloud would feel like an easy alternative to claim the title, and it almost all boils down to how much strength and coverage that sword grants him. Incidentally those two characters' massive biases of their NAirs stymie a bunch of Steve's close range options, including DAir of all things.

I guess what I'm getting at is that the main reason outpacing Steve's advantage feels like the answer is that it's almost a concession. Steve has a neutral where it's easy to write up a gameplan of what's expoitable, but it's designed to be exploited by the type of character that most of the cast... aren't.

 

[F4lcoMain]

I don't think Rosalina comes anywhere close to those characters. There's a reason it is literally just Dabuz playing her. High tier for sure, but Dabuz doesn't just use Rosa, he has 2 other characters he can pop out at anytime in Olimar and Min Min. Rosa struggles in some matchups against the good characters, and when Luma is gone (which is quite often) she's a lot worse.

Her light, floaty nature while being tall is also a very exploitable weakness, similarly to .

IDK, I think Rosalina is a lot more like a fortress compared to Mewtwo. Getting in on her can be kind of tricky compared to Mewtwo due to Luma being kinda like a shield, protecting her from getting hit at times and breaking combos. I'd say her issues might be more similar to swordies where she will have certain blindspots and lag that can be exploited.

 

[blackghost]

rosalia was screwed by ultimates engine speeding everyone up, removing jump squats, and shaving frame data nearly across the board. gae doesnt let her operate as she wants.

leo vs minmi is fascinating. leo is a master at spacing and understanding the max reach anyone can threaten him with. minmin as a character does what leo has worked his ass off to master. prob why he dislikes her.

dabuz is playing rosa because its a knowledge check and mental check. not because she is great or anything. if you play a wierd or rare character you can get a lot of people off guard in this game. people often dont have any idea what to do.

riddles cant be holding this title of best kazuya when tea is running around doing what he's doing.


watching people that know how to fight steve vs people that dont is the grand cayon. People need to figure out what do vs minekart and less on breaking blocks as soon as possible.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

? He's literally practicing it and made it into his best character with tons of grinding over the last couple of months. It's not about him wanting him to play it, it's wondering why he's sharpened a blade that he won't use, even backed into a corner.

It's one thing to play some secondary in a few friendlies and then not touch it.

It's another to develop a character to the point where you're destroying Gluto, Sisqui, eMass, Shuton and Proto with it (in the crew battle, Leo 2-stocked both of them with Joker!), and then never touch it in bracket. It was definitely ready, but I can't figure out if Leo is saving it for a more important tournament or doesn't want to unveil it until he masters some weird slingshot applications.

There is something big simmering there, you can see it when he plays Joker.

I think MKLeo was just tired.

Joker requires a fair amount of precision and it was a late grand finals. Way into early morning. He may have opted for an easier character since he was probably running on fumes at that point.

I imagine if he had issues with Proto with a full tank he'd probably use Joker.

 

[PK Gaming]

Great Grand Finals, was worth the late-night watch. Min Min is still great and Proto is a spacing master.

One thing I don't understand is why Leo thinks his Joker isn't ready/doesn't want to use it. If you watch him play Joker it clearly looks like his best character, even better than his Byleth, and he's said as much from time to time after slingshot emerged. It was definitely ready, and he didn't need the basic ROB (as hype as it was).

Leo tweeted something about how he "doesn't feel like playing at 100%."

What is this? It sounds like it's out of some anime or manga, kinda like "you're not worthy of my final form, it's too much effort."

Honestly baffling and not sure what to make of it.

Meanwhile, we should be talking about Dabuz. What a legendary losers run. How are people feeling about Rosalina?

It's not a boast, Joker is pretty damn mentally taxing to play (as you know) but also, the way he plays him where tries to overwhelm and get the first KO and snowball from there just isn't as effective as it used to be. His peak Joker played in a meta where people weren't consistently punishing his swings, and now they do so he has to play either super defensive/reactionary and that only goes so far, or hope his opponents aren't privy to his tricks as Joker. 100%

Also playing from behind with the character in this particular meta sucks ass. I don't think he's holding back like some anime character, I just don't think he'd get any enjoyment out of playing Joker in that match, and there's no guarantee he'd win either. 100% Joker means perfectly capitalizing on every mistake and playing from behind if you lose the first stock. I think a lot of us took "game 4 leo" for granted because a lot of his most famous Joker wins could have easily gone the other way and the guy was playing out of his mind to do it.

I think Rosa's good and Dabuz is exceptional at using her. Not much else to add, but it feels like he's taking a pretty middle-tier character and overclocking her to win.

 

[superjm]

The ultimate flex would be MKLeo picking up a pocket Jigglypuff just for the Min Min matchup, similar to how he dusted off the Lucina to deal with the rat infestation of the early meta.

Character counterpicking is only going to get more prevalent I feel. Co-maining is already a common practice across the board but I wouldn't be surprised if it does a step further, as with so many characters and so many matchups and only so much time to dedicate it's probably easier and preferable to develop specialized character picks to deal with the periphery holes in your primary character(s)'s matchup spread.

 

[Hydreigonfan01]

The ultimate flex would be MKLeo picking up a pocket Jigglypuff just for the Min Min matchup, similar to how he dusted off the Lucina to deal with the rat infestation of the early meta.

Character counterpicking is only going to get more prevalent I feel. Co-maining is already a common practice across the board but I wouldn't be surprised if it does a step further, as with so many characters and so many matchups and only so much time to dedicate it's probably easier and preferable to develop specialized character picks to deal with the periphery holes in your primary character(s)'s matchup spread.

Leo has used Greninja in the past, and I've heard Greninja does have a good MU against Min Min.

 

[the king of murder]

I do have to ask, why didn't leo try the Aegis duo against Proto? I know Pyra gets invalidated by MinMin but Mythra seems to have all the tools to rush down MinMin and exploit one of her biggest weakness. He showed such dominance with this character last week thanks to his improvement with them.

 

[NairWizard]

Update on my thoughts: Proto in an interview just said that Leo's ROB is tied with Zackray's ROB for best ROB, so I guess Leo must have had confidence in his ROB.

I do have to ask, why didn't leo try the Aegis duo against Proto? I know Pyra gets invalidated by MinMin but Mythra seems to have all the tools to rush down MinMin and exploit one of her biggest weakness. He showed such dominance with this character last week thanks to his improvement with them.

I'm guessing it's because they just lose as soon as they're offstage against Min MIn. Aegis recovery is actually pretty solid overall, but against Min Min you may as well just SD when you're offstage. I played the Aegis-MinMin matchup against Rich Brown a while back as Aegis, and although the games were even I was really stressed out the entire time. I imagine that Leo didn't want to deal with that.

 

[F4lcoMain]

The ultimate flex would be MKLeo picking up a pocket Jigglypuff just for the Min Min matchup, similar to how he dusted off the Lucina to deal with the rat infestation of the early meta.

Character counterpicking is only going to get more prevalent I feel. Co-maining is already a common practice across the board but I wouldn't be surprised if it does a step further, as with so many characters and so many matchups and only so much time to dedicate it's probably easier and preferable to develop specialized character picks to deal with the periphery holes in your primary character(s)'s matchup spread.

Can't say I necessarily agree. I think having several pockets just leads to spreading yourself too thin since you will have dedicate time to grinding combos, getting familar with the pocket's physics, neutral tools, advantages in x matchup etc. A half-baked Jigglypuff or Greninja may not even be more effective against Min-min than Leo just using the characters he normally plays. Then again, this is Leo, who has very solid fundamentals and is already able to play many characters quite effectively, so it definitely is possible for him.

I do agree that co-maining is a pretty strong strategy, though I personally prefer just sticking to one character atm since playing another character can be a bit annoying for the reasons I outlined earlier. I tried picking up Marth as a co-main and playing him just felt incredibly clunky since his neutral and gameplan are quiet different from Falco. Pretty much all of his actions, though possessing incredible range and similar frame data to Falco, require way more committment, and have lower reward on average, whether it be short-hopping, using Up-tilt, D-tilt, etc. Additionally, mastering tippers and things like DB timings are hard. However, this could just be Marth being hard to use. I sometimes play Roy here and there, and he feels a lot more similar to Falco due to having higher falling speed and a similar playstyle (where he would prefer the opponents be close to him in neutral and has access to strong kill confirms like Jab -> Bair, which I find to be similar to Falco's Up-Tilt -> Bair).

 

[Sucumbio]

I mean ... It's Leo. The whole cast in his pocket.

 

[The_Bookworm]

I do have to ask, why didn't leo try the Aegis duo against Proto? I know Pyra gets invalidated by MinMin but Mythra seems to have all the tools to rush down MinMin and exploit one of her biggest weakness. He showed such dominance with this character last week thanks to his improvement with them.

I think it may have to do with Leo's past experiences. Leo's Aegis got dominated by Proto's Min Min back at Summit. Even before that set, he had a close call with Pink Fresh bringing Leo's Aegis to a game 5 scenario. Because of that, he is willing to explore his other options.

Part of why Leo's Aegis has improved so much since then, as demonstrated by last weekend, is his ability to tap into Mythra's true playstyle. Before, he pretty much played Mythra like he does for his other characters. His Aegis was carried by Leo's own powerful fundamentals and nothing more, and it lacked that specific polish that the other top Aegis players at the time were demonstrating. However, he definitely showed up lately with that polish, with Mythra's whiff punishing playstyle.

Such a playstyle is much harder to execute vs Min Min cause of her half-screen normals. As such, even with the improvements he has made to his Mythra gameplan, it will likely not make that big of a difference, especially the way Proto was playing back there.

Leo currently has the issue that his entire character pool, especially his most practiced characters, doesn't do well vs Min Min. I'd say that his Joker probably does the best vs her as demonstrated back at Fall Fest vs Dabuz, but Leo is still not confident enough to go for it. The R.O.B. was working, but he ran out of steam in the end, and Proto was playing way too good.

 

[Sucumbio]

There was a problem fetching the tweet

From his lips to our ears. But as he says in follow up tweets he plays too many characters and needs to concentrate on undoing mm. So I guess mm top tier.

Re against proto mm I think they both love jump in nair setups bc that's how you juggle in this game and mm is great but ROB and Byleth's is even better. This contest showed just what happens when you win that exchange bc mm is gangster at half court as was said. Joker is too just as is Sheik. But anyway... Minmin busted lol.

 

[Hydreigonfan01]

Results from Weekly Smash Party SP #57

1. Zackray
2. Paseriman
3. Tsubotsubo
4. Tarakatori
5. Songn
5. Eim
7. TKM
7. HIKARU

 

[NairWizard]

1. Zackray

Yet another top player busts out Cloud.

It turns out that the real Smash 4 Cloud clone is Smash Ultimate Cloud.

 

[F4lcoMain]

Yet another top player busts out Cloud.

It turns out that the real Smash 4 Cloud clone is Smash Ultimate Cloud.

It makes sense tbh. Defensive options in this game are really bad, so Cloud is able to capitalize on stuff like techrolls, airdodges, etc. almost as well as he could in Smash 4. (maybe a bit better actually due to reduced landing lag on his aerials giving him more follow-ups) His Dash Attack killing is also huge since it makes jumping randomly or doing landing aerials in neutral very risky against him at kill percents.

 

[Hippieslayer]

Leo doesn't want to play Joker cuz if he loses with Joker then that's a big deal, whereas if he doesn't use Joker then he can't really lose, because even if he does it's just because he didn't use Joker, and so he gets to tell himself that he could've won anyway.

Like a student drinking the day before a big exam so that if they don't pass it their ego doesn't take that big of a hit, because they can always tell themselves the only reason they didn't pass was because they were hung over. Common psychological phenomenon iirc.

Thinking that has to be it, at least to some degree. Saying he doesn't feel like playing at 100% really makes it seem that way. If you're not at 100% then the pressure is lessened. There's other reasons too of course but this has to be one of them. I mean being the best in the world comes with a lot of pressure, it's gotta be natural to want to dodge it. Especially if you can get away with doing so like he usually can. Might've stated this before. Not sure. Sorry if repeat post.

 

[Trunks159]

Leo doesn't want to play Joker cuz if he loses with Joker then that's a big deal, whereas if he doesn't use Joker then he can't really lose, because even if he does it's just because he didn't use Joker, and so he gets to tell himself that he could've won anyway.

Like a student drinking the day before a big exam so that if they don't pass it their ego doesn't take that big of a hit, because they can always tell themselves the only reason they didn't pass was because they were hung over. Common psychological phenomenon iirc.

Thinking that has to be it, at least to some degree. Saying he doesn't feel like playing at 100% really makes it seem that way. If you're not at 100% then the pressure is lessened. There's other reasons too of course but this has to be one of them. I mean being the best in the world comes with a lot of pressure, it's gotta be natural to want to dodge it. Especially if you can get away with doing so like he usually can. Might've stated this before. Not sure. Sorry if repeat post.

Perhaps but he was sick so that might have something to do with it.

 

[NairWizard]

Not to keep on the Leo discussion train too long, but I have a thought.

It's rare for the dominant best player of a smash game to be loved or rooted for, or even discussed all the time. Even if you're mango, if you're winning everything, not everyone likes you. Yet, Leo has been just as dominant as any smash player has ever been, and people still root for him, and like him. Most people, in fact. It's hard to be a smash ultimate fan and not be an Mkleo fan.

You can say it's because he's humble and a nice guy--and that's true, he really is. But people don't care about that as much as you'd think. There's another reason that people cheer for Leo--it's because despite his dominance he manages to find ways to make his performances hype; he weaves narratives out of them.

The circumstances always seem to be right for Leo sets and tournaments to be hype, no matter what. Some tournaments that he thinks are important to win, like SWT which declares the world champion, he'll come and clean sweep. Other tournaments, he'll leave you hanging on the edge of your seat.

Leo winning Frostbite with Joker? Not too hype.
Leo winning Frostbite with Joker from Losers bracket after an early upset? Everyone's going to cheer from that.

Leo coming back after quarantine and dominating with Joker? Same as before.
Leo coming back after quarantine and winning with Byleth? Everyone's going crazy.

Who are people talking about more from this weekend--Proto's Min Min or Leo's ROB? All I see is hype over Leo's ROB, with some nods to how strong Proto is for overcoming it. Somehow, the guy who got 2nd is being talked about like 500 times more than the guy who got first. Sometimes that happens in small pockets, but it's rarely so widespread. I mean, Dabuz also had a great run worthy of discussion, but no one seems to be talking about that everywhere I go.

Even in the interviews with Proto, interviewers asked him questions about how good Leo's ROB is.

It was even more tense because Leo only brought out the ROB in Grand Finals, despite it clearly being prepared for Winners Finals.

Am I saying that Leo is some mastermind who saw how people reacted to ZeRo's being #1 and then orchestrated all of his losses and close sets to get people to cheer for him? No... but I'm not saying it's all coincidence, either. I think it has a lot to do with why he isn't using Joker right now or why he feels like it's a chore.

People used to say that Joker was broken or that Leo relied on a top tier to win when Leo was using Joker all the time--now people are begging him to play Joker.

 

[Dan Quixote]

Not to keep on the Leo discussion train too long, but I have a thought.

It's rare for the dominant best player of a smash game to be loved or rooted for, or even discussed all the time. Even if you're mango, if you're winning everything, not everyone likes you. Yet, Leo has been just as dominant as any smash player has ever been, and people still root for him, and like him. Most people, in fact. It's hard to be a smash ultimate fan and not be an Mkleo fan.

You can say it's because he's humble and a nice guy--and that's true, he really is. But people don't care about that as much as you'd think. There's another reason that people cheer for Leo--it's because despite his dominance he manages to find ways to make his performances hype; he weaves narratives out of them.

The circumstances always seem to be right for Leo sets and tournaments to be hype, no matter what. Some tournaments that he thinks are important to win, like SWT which declares the world champion, he'll come and clean sweep. Other tournaments, he'll leave you hanging on the edge of your seat.

Leo winning Frostbite with Joker? Not too hype.
Leo winning Frostbite with Joker from Losers bracket after an early upset? Everyone's going to cheer from that.

Leo coming back after quarantine and dominating with Joker? Same as before.
Leo coming back after quarantine and winning with Byleth? Everyone's going crazy.

Who are people talking about more from this weekend--Proto's Min Min or Leo's ROB? All I see is hype over Leo's ROB, with some nods to how strong Proto is for overcoming it. Somehow, the guy who got 2nd is being talked about like 500 times more than the guy who got first. Sometimes that happens in small pockets, but it's rarely so widespread. I mean, Dabuz also had a great run worthy of discussion, but no one seems to be talking about that everywhere I go.

Even in the interviews with Proto, interviewers asked him questions about how good Leo's ROB is.

It was even more tense because Leo only brought out the ROB in Grand Finals, despite it clearly being prepared for Winners Finals.

Am I saying that Leo is some mastermind who saw how people reacted to ZeRo's being #1 and then orchestrated all of his losses and close sets to get people to cheer for him? No... but I'm not saying it's all coincidence, either. I think it has a lot to do with why he isn't using Joker right now or why he feels like it's a chore.

People used to say that Joker was broken or that Leo relied on a top tier to win when Leo was using Joker all the time--now people are begging him to play Joker.

And it's so much funner this way imo, love wanting the dominator to just keep dominating for once in my life. Even in other fighting games that's so damn rare.

 

[Linkmain-maybe]

I have heard that Leo struggles with characters that can really dominate mid range (like Mega-Man), So is it possible that MinMin can be a struggle for him, as he is basically fighting Mid range the character?

 

[Trunks159]

Not to keep on the Leo discussion train too long, but I have a thought.

It's rare for the dominant best player of a smash game to be loved or rooted for, or even discussed all the time. Even if you're mango, if you're winning everything, not everyone likes you. Yet, Leo has been just as dominant as any smash player has ever been, and people still root for him, and like him. Most people, in fact. It's hard to be a smash ultimate fan and not be an Mkleo fan.

You can say it's because he's humble and a nice guy--and that's true, he really is. But people don't care about that as much as you'd think. There's another reason that people cheer for Leo--it's because despite his dominance he manages to find ways to make his performances hype; he weaves narratives out of them.

The circumstances always seem to be right for Leo sets and tournaments to be hype, no matter what. Some tournaments that he thinks are important to win, like SWT which declares the world champion, he'll come and clean sweep. Other tournaments, he'll leave you hanging on the edge of your seat.

Leo winning Frostbite with Joker? Not too hype.
Leo winning Frostbite with Joker from Losers bracket after an early upset? Everyone's going to cheer from that.

Leo coming back after quarantine and dominating with Joker? Same as before.
Leo coming back after quarantine and winning with Byleth? Everyone's going crazy.

Who are people talking about more from this weekend--Proto's Min Min or Leo's ROB? All I see is hype over Leo's ROB, with some nods to how strong Proto is for overcoming it. Somehow, the guy who got 2nd is being talked about like 500 times more than the guy who got first. Sometimes that happens in small pockets, but it's rarely so widespread. I mean, Dabuz also had a great run worthy of discussion, but no one seems to be talking about that everywhere I go.

Even in the interviews with Proto, interviewers asked him questions about how good Leo's ROB is.

It was even more tense because Leo only brought out the ROB in Grand Finals, despite it clearly being prepared for Winners Finals.

Am I saying that Leo is some mastermind who saw how people reacted to ZeRo's being #1 and then orchestrated all of his losses and close sets to get people to cheer for him? No... but I'm not saying it's all coincidence, either. I think it has a lot to do with why he isn't using Joker right now or why he feels like it's a chore.

People used to say that Joker was broken or that Leo relied on a top tier to win when Leo was using Joker all the time--now people are begging him to play Joker.

Great post!

I'd also like to add that it probably has something to do with the characters he plays.


In Smash 4 he used and , two characters that pretty much didn't exist before he used them, and no one got anywhere near his results with those characters. Same with . He takes characters to new heights and this is what makes it impossible to deny his talent.

With players like Zero playing prepatch andor Mango playing , you'd be wrong to but some people could always blame your success on you playing the best character in the game. You can't help but respect his skill. I'd also like to add that he plays pretty traditional fighters.

 

[Aaron1997]

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Very optimistic MU chart for Sonic here

 

[SapphSabre777]

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Very optimistic MU chart for Sonic here

Definitely optimistic...but it honestly isn't that far from the truth. Sonic's runaway game along with his really solid tools overall allow him to really have fun with a majority of the cast. The more Sonic players delve into this dual-layered gameplan of hit-run-punish, the more people will see just how good he is. I'm honestly starting to think that, compared to his S4 iteration, Sonic got side-graded, in that his runaway game got nerfed (namely shield cancel Spin Dash), but in turn he has a monstrous ability to rack up damage and advantage that is much stronger relative to the game's engine and mechanics. Even with the swords coming out for characters like Steve, Sonic doesn't mind swords too much, since his ability to edgeguard and his obvious speed lets him dance around those hitboxes.

I honestly think Sonic is a top 5 character at the moment. He's just really, really good right now.

Also, I think we are edging closer to a Street Fighter IV-esque meta...by that I mean that we are entering mains with CP-backups.

 

[blackghost]

Also, I think we are edging closer to a Street Fighter IV-esque meta...by that I mean that we are entering mains with CP-backups.

tihnk its closer to a tekken 7 meta. there are characters that are clearly better and dsome make things hard for lower tiers but you need to know how to exploit rare characters as well.

 

[Sucumbio]

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lolyonni.

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vendetta tier list

 

[Hydreigonfan01]

Leo recently said on his stream that he's going Aegis against Min Min...

Even though his Aegis has massively improved, I feel like Leo has no idea which one of his characters he should go because as someone who plays that character, I don't think they beat Min Min.

He should either level up his ROB or use Joker against Min Min.

 

[NairWizard]

Speaking of Leo, live quote from Leo's stream, "My Joker is so good that if I really use him, I just have to adapt to any matchup, and no one will beat me. Ever. Ever."

Seems like a very high opinion of Joker. Basically Leo thinks that if he solo mains Joker, he won't lose to anyone any more.
(but won't actually commit to it since he doesn't seem to want that route)