Official Competitive Character Impressions 2.0

[Arthur97]

That seems a bit hyperbolic. Plus, may be an opinion of his Joker. Not Joker overall.

 

[Sucumbio]

Disadvantage Tier list

NOTES: Tiers are less ordered as they go down, the hero in top tier is Sephiroth w/ wing, ICs is only both of them, and Rosa confused me

(Included getting off ledge, getting out of juggle, getting out of combos) pic.twitter.com/pUoEyOJR3r

— ESAM (@imESAM) July 28, 2022

ESAM with another tier list, this time comparing character's disadvantage state.

 

[Hydreigonfan01]

Results for Kagaribi 8.

1. Miya
2. Abadango
3. Shuton
4. KEN
5. ProtoBanham
5. Futari No Kiwami Ah~!
7. Yoshidora
7. Umeki
9. Yez
9. Gackt
9. Eim
9. Paseriman
13. Taikei
13. Repo
13. Shirayuki
13. Noi
17. Sigma
17. TKM
17. sssr
17. Hero
17. Shogun
17. Akakikusu
17. YOC
17. Kameme

Yeah, the first GnW to win a major was not Maister.

 

[Hydreigonfan01]

So far at Smash Factor 9, Leo has been destroying everyone going solo Pyra/Mythra. Curious if this will continue if he'll switch to Byleth.

 

[NairWizard]

I've not seen Meta Knight look so oppressive in a long time. Honestly a little moving, brings back good memories.

 

[Hydreigonfan01]

Big upsets at Smash Factor 9:

ShinyMark 3-2 Sisqui
This is even larger when you consider that Sisqui has actually beaten ESAM before.
Rox 3-0 Sonix
Goblin 3-0 Chag
Leaf 3-2 Javi
OG-Mustaine 3-0 Nair^
Suadero 3-1 Mr. R

 

[Akai kage]

Results for Kagaribi 8.

1. Miya
2. Abadango
3. Shuton
4. KEN
5. ProtoBanham
5. Futari No Kiwami Ah~!
7. Yoshidora
7. Umeki
9. Yez
9. Gackt
9. Eim
9. Paseriman
13. Taikei
13. Repo
13. Shirayuki
13. Noi
17. Sigma
17. TKM
17. sssr
17. Hero
17. Shogun
17. Akakikusu
17. YOC
17. Kameme

Yeah, the first GnW to win a major was not Maister.

Interestingly Miya is the second player on the japanese ladder to have achieved 2500 points after acola. A new player rises thanks to that padder.

 

[KirbySquad101]

Just looking at the difference between how the two play currently, Miya's neutral and advantage might even be scarier than Maister's. Miya's backward aerial drift combined with full hop NAir's and FAir's massive hitboxes really abuses the risk characters take in approaching GnW, and his reactions against Aba's teleports from off to onstage were immaculate.

 

[The_Bookworm]

Smash Factor 9 Top 8

Winner's
MkLeo vs Maister
Glutonny vs Dabuz (played Min Min back at pools)

Loser's
ShinyMark vs WaDi
sisqui vs Sonix


The four players at winner's side are looking absolutely dominant this tournament. This will be a spicy top 8 as they are going to confront eachother.
Will Maister get revenge for Leo's 6-0 sweep with Aegis several weeks back?

 

[Hydreigonfan01]

ShinyMark is the only other Pikachu aside from ESAM to make top 8 at a supermajor btw. Kinda wish he could travel more now (unfortunate that it's hard due to the country he lives in), he's proven himself and if it wasn't for that problem I could see him improving Pikachu's results by quite a bit. He was the only player to take a game off of Leo so far.

He is going to Smash Con though, so we'll see more action of him in the next few weeks.

 

[F4lcoMain]

Disadvantage Tier list

NOTES: Tiers are less ordered as they go down, the hero in top tier is Sephiroth w/ wing, ICs is only both of them, and Rosa confused me

(Included getting off ledge, getting out of juggle, getting out of combos) pic.twitter.com/pUoEyOJR3r

— ESAM (@imESAM) July 28, 2022

ESAM with another tier list, this time comparing character's disadvantage state.

Disadvantage is kinda a hard thing to tier since its not really a state you wanna be in anyways + there are multiple layers to disadvantage like being juggled, being edgeguarded, being combo'd, positioning, etc. Falco's disadvantage on stage is ok since he has the frame 3 Nair + frame 2 Jab to intercept combos, but his recovery can be exploitable depending on the situation Falco is in. If he has his jump and Airdoge in tact, he can mix up his recovery a bit by, say, Side Bing onto the Top battlefield platform or airdodging to ledge. However, if these options aren't availlible then he'll be in a pretty bad spot.

I do agree that Shulk's disadvantage is really good though, if only for Monodo canceling which lets him escape combos very easily iirc.

 

[Hippieslayer]

Well, all the characters Esam put in Top 5 do have very good disadvantage states.

But is Rosa's disadvantage really that poor? I'm in a biased state of mind from watching Dabuz do work just now so I'm not sure. I mean even without Luma Rosa has a lot of big hitboxes to cover herself with. Her floatiness can be a weakness, but it also lets her stall for time. Her attacks still work without Luma, yeah they are worse but they are only really bad in terms of damage and kill power. Frame data and hitbox wise her normals are by no means terrible even without Luma. She can't kill, but she can defend herself solo.

Dabuz does fine without Luma a lot of the time, he's usually ready for it when people try to rush him down. He's kinda able to play off the fact that he knows people will want to go in on him when he loses Luma. It's easier to get predicted and stuffed if your opponent knows you're going to attack. Rosa can intercept and stuff attempts to rush her down. All her aerials have respectable hitboxes, bair has good reach and is quick. An opponent at a low percentage is worse for Solo Rosa in a way, because low knockback makes it so that Rosa doesn't buy much time when landing a hit. But when Solo Rosa is fighting someone who has taken a bit of damage every hit landed allows you to stall. At high percentages a single hit can net you enough time for Luma to respawn. The same goes for when the Rosa player gets hit too. It isn't always exclusively bad. If your Luma died and you got sent flying near the blastzone then several seconds will pass before you have to interact with your opponent again. Dabuz usually finds ways to create more of these situations and drag them out as much as possible.

It seems to me that solo Rosa is a little underrated, and that when Luma dies it's often possible to reduce the amount of interactions you have with your opponent while solo to a very small amount. I don't think her recovery is that bad either. Yeah it has no hitbox, but it can be aimed in various ways, and Rosa gets to play with the timing a lot because of how floaty she is. I suppose she's vulnerable when's airborne above her opponent what with how floaty she is. But even in the air she has big active hitboxes that she can cover herself with.

Still, is her disadvantage that poor? I don't know, anyone else care to weigh in? Perhaps Esam is right and people are just not good enough at dealing with Luma. It does seem painful for Rosa when she's fighting characters with moves that consistently one shot Luma

 

[superjm]

So uh, any idea that Leo's Joker would be out of practice are resoundly discredited now.

Dude really was just holding back the whole time.

 

[Hydreigonfan01]

Leo's Joker is ****ing incredible. The next set between Leo and Proto will be so good.

 

[NairWizard]

I mean, I told you guys. That Joker is right now the best thing I've ever seen in Ultimate. It was true at Double Down too. Leo was definitely saving it, because it is by far his best character.

Between this and Tweek going Aegis recently, I think we're finally going to see our tippy-top players play top tiers again and show how dominant they can really be.

 

[Hippieslayer]

I hope you're right man. The character specialists have been very prominent now for a while. People like Dabuz, Light, Gluttony. Would love to see Tweek using a top tier that can put on the pressure without being cerebrally draining to play. I don't think Tweek has gotten worse. I think others have gotten better, the Meta has changed, Diddy Kong isn't worth maining if you're Tweek imo, too much work better spent elsewhere. his Wolf and Wario are no longer at the level required for them to be viable counterpicks. He doesn't have the punish game down with them, and it takes more than very sound fundamentals to win with those characters nowadays. The Wario and Wolf players making waves are character specialists now. Their punish games and ability to kill are on another level than that of the people who use them as pockets. By now that might be the case with his pokemon trainer too.

Sephiroth I'm not sure about. The character does look hard to deal with at times, like when KEN walls people out by spamming fastfallen bairs. Still not sure where he stands and what his best role is in today's meta. But Sephiroth is a worse character than Tweek is a player. Though Sephiroth seems like the type of character Tweek would be able to use alongside Cloud and/or Aegis being able to switch between without suffering cognitive dissonance, moreso than Diddy Kong does.

But he really seems to want to give Bayonetta a shot too though : P

 

[The_Bookworm]

Smash Factor 9

1st: MkLeo
2nd: Dabuz
3rd: Sonix
4th: Glutonny
5th: ShinyMark
5th: Maister
7th: WaDi
7th: sisqui

Spoiler: Top 16

9th: Rox
9th: WaKa
9th: Skyjay
9th: Goblin

13th: Fatality
13th: Dark Wizzy
13th: Yei
13th: Andrik

Spoiler: Top 32

17th: Ling
17th: Ang
17th: Chag
17th: Suadero
17th: OG-Mustaine
17th: Leaf
17th: Cosmos
17th: AlanDiss

25th: Cloudy
25th: CK
25th: Law
25th: Mr. R
25th: Nair^
25th: Javi
25th: Cali
25th: Many

Leo brought Dabuz all the way back to Smash Con 2021, cause that Joker smoked him.

Between this and Tweek going Aegis recently

Wait, when did this happen? Is it purely on stream or has he brought them out in tournament already?
That is the first time I have ever heard of Tweek having an Aegis.

 

[NairWizard]

Wait, when did this happen? Is it purely on stream or has he brought them out in tournament already?
That is the first time I have ever heard of Tweek having an Aegis.

Tweek won a Philly tournament with all Aegis and posted this tweet:

Saw some comments in relation to me falling off or whatever. I am now going to pick up the messed up stuff, just know this is your fault

— LG Tweek (@TweekSsb) July 30, 2022

 

[blackghost]

Tweek won a Philly tournament with all Aegis and posted this tweet:

Saw some comments in relation to me falling off or whatever. I am now going to pick up the messed up stuff, just know this is your fault

— LG Tweek (@TweekSsb) July 30, 2022

as of right now aegis dont really qualify as the "messed up stuff" so idk what he's tlaking about.

shinymark looks like the best pika in the world.

 

[Kokiden]

Speaking of Leo, live quote from Leo's stream, "My Joker is so good that if I really use him, I just have to adapt to any matchup, and no one will beat me. Ever. Ever."

Seems like a very high opinion of Joker. Basically Leo thinks that if he solo mains Joker, he won't lose to anyone any more.
(but won't actually commit to it since he doesn't seem to want that route)

After that truly outstanding performance of Leo's Joker in Smash Factor 9.... yeah I can see it.

I really can.

I have never seen anyone's Joker reach this level of mastery and outright domination other than Leo's. I don't think even Zackray's Joker comes close tbh.

Good grief what a set...

I had an inkling when I saw him take 2 stocks off Proto and Shuton in that last tourney, I thought to myself at the time Leo has a deadly weapon in his pocket that he is keeping hidden, a very scary one... and that was proven today.

Funnily enough, I think Dabuz sorta ticked Leo off when he chose Min Min, and that was what made him go "You know what? Fine. I'm going to destroy you with Joker, because f**k MinMin"

Btw do you have the link to that stream? He's got a few up now.

That seems a bit hyperbolic. Plus, may be an opinion of his Joker. Not Joker overall.

Well, yes... he did specifically say "My Joker" when saying that lol

But he really seems to want to give Bayonetta a shot too though : P

Wait... Tweek expressed somewhere that he wanted to give Bayonetta a shot?!

She's one of my fav characters so... that would be really neat actually.

 

[Hydreigonfan01]

as of right now aegis dont really qualify as the "messed up stuff" so idk what he's tlaking about.

shinymark looks like the best pika in the world.

ESAM's still the best Pika because he's won majors (one of which over Leo) and got 4th at Genesis 7. Like historically, ESAM is better.
BTW here's the updated list of every character that has won a major

 

[Frihetsanka]

as of right now aegis dont really qualify as the "messed up stuff" so idk what he's tlaking about.

Probably Aegis. Messed up could mean "strong", it doesn't have to mean poor design. Aegis is generally considered top 3 and contender for #1 still, although characters like Joker and Steve are also fighting for that #1 spot.

Highlight videos of his recent tournament run with Aegis, if we are to believe the title he might very well end up maining Aegis:

Mr. R talked about going Sheik/Aegis as well (or maybe Sheik/Roy). And MkLeo has been playing more Aegis recently. Seems we're seeing a bit of a resurgence of Aegis (not that she ever really fell off that much). If/when Sparg0 comes back maybe he'd play more Aegis as well? Though Cloud is likely top tier too and as MkLeo and Dabuz have proven you don't even need to play top tier characters in order to place well (with MkLeo doing well with Byleth/Corrin and Dabuz doing well with Rosalina/Olimar/Min Min). Though playing a top tier helps, especially at top level.

 

[superjm]

The meta is going to naturally coalesce to the strong, easy, and successful characters because that's how it always works. Aegis ticks all those boxes, as do Palu, Roy, ROB, Sonic, among others to a lesser extent (Steve is an odd duck here, as in many ways he's quite easy but he's also incredibly unorthodox). It's also why characters like Sheik, Pikachu, and Joker (MKLeo notwithstanding) will generally remain on the periphery, because the returns of investing so much time and effort into those characters just isn't worth it when a character like Aegis is right there.

Fun and style will continue to be strong considerations among competitors, and the breadth of character viability in this game means that it's quite unlikely the meta will fully stagnate into the type of MK/Bayo dominance we saw in previous games, but sure and simple competitive viability will ultimately win out among the very best and most ambitious.

 

[toonito]

ESAM's still the best Pika because he's won majors (one of which over Leo) and got 4th at Genesis 7. Like historically, ESAM is better.
BTW here's the updated list of every character that has won a major

with Riddles' recent performances i'd love to see Terry join that top group; he's so close

 

[Hydreigonfan01]

Maybe Steve is the best character in the game

OrionStats character update for July! Steve starts Phase 6 off with a clean lead, while Snake re-emerges in the top 3 and Min Min accelerates to near-top 10 status. G&W has also had a very good month, with Miya, Maister, & regional data boosting the character. pic.twitter.com/S1Pc6EzvIJ

— Barnard's Loop (@LoopBarnard) August 1, 2022

 

[F4lcoMain]

Maybe Steve is the best character in the game

OrionStats character update for July! Steve starts Phase 6 off with a clean lead, while Snake re-emerges in the top 3 and Min Min accelerates to near-top 10 status. G&W has also had a very good month, with Miya, Maister, & regional data boosting the character. pic.twitter.com/S1Pc6EzvIJ

— Barnard's Loop (@LoopBarnard) August 1, 2022

I mean, the character has some disgustingly broken moves like his Up Air, which is an even BETTER version of Brawl Meta Knight's up air (a move notorious for being utterly busted).

However, I think his good results are due to him lacking some of the major rough spots other top tier characters have that lead to inconsistencies. His recovery is reliable, he's got a very threatening landing option in anvil (exploitable by reflectors tho) and he has strong raw kill moves + kill confirms.

 

[Frihetsanka]

Maybe Steve is the best character in the game

I've been saying that for a while now. Also, Aegis "falling off" is greatly exaggerated, in my opinion. Sephiroth #10 and Min Min #9 is super interesting, as is Samus #8. And Pikachu #3, finally some Pikachu results! Wait, did I write #3? I meant to write #36, my bad .

Kazuya #16 is very interesting. Sora down at #64 is interesting as well, I thought people had high hopes for Sora? Like high tier? Still, at the end of the day results aren't everything and we might see someone pick up Sora and show us what he can do, maybe...

 

[Hydreigonfan01]

Sora down at #64 is interesting as well, I thought people had high hopes for Sora? Like high tier? Still, at the end of the day results aren't everything and we might see someone pick up Sora and show us what he can do, maybe...

Tbf, it's basically just Kameme that plays Sora who actually does something with the character, and I guess komorikiri too but he only goes to the Sumabato's.

 

[toonito]

Maybe Steve is the best character in the game

OrionStats character update for July! Steve starts Phase 6 off with a clean lead, while Snake re-emerges in the top 3 and Min Min accelerates to near-top 10 status. G&W has also had a very good month, with Miya, Maister, & regional data boosting the character. pic.twitter.com/S1Pc6EzvIJ

— Barnard's Loop (@LoopBarnard) August 1, 2022

joins (and ) as #1 on Orionstats

 

[NairWizard]

End of an era... from hearing Mkleo talk just recently, it seems like he's retiring the Byleth out of his lineup.

So that's it, I suppose. Back to top tiers.

 

[blackghost]

sora wasnt a character i had much faith in hes a character (like banjo) people desperately wanted to be good more than he actually was.

downward air guns on joker is likely a contender for the best move in the game.

i do wonder what sep ceiling is long term character is very linear but i feel like he could be a strong style counter pick.

aegis as a character is literally a test of can a character be best in the game solely based on having raw stats that are just absurd.

I mean, the character has some disgustingly broken moves like his Up Air, which is an even BETTER version of Brawl Meta Knight's up air (a move notorious for being utterly busted).

lol brawl meta knight upair moved him upwards (repeatedly) so no its still not better.

 

[Hydreigonfan01]

End of an era... from hearing Mkleo talk just recently, it seems like he's retiring the Byleth out of his lineup.

So that's it, I suppose. Back to top tiers.

Did you hear this from his Twitter or was he streaming?

 

[Rizen]

Speaking as someone who's learning , they're surprisingly hard to play. Both characters SD very easily and their chains require a lot of practice. Plus you have to learn 2 characters as opposed to someone like Roy, who's only one. Maybe I'm just not good with them but I feel like neutral especially requires a lot of skill. They seem like they should be easy but oddly aren't.

 

[Hydreigonfan01]

Speaking as someone who's learning , they're surprisingly hard to play. Both characters SD very easily and their chains require a lot of practice. Plus you have to learn 2 characters as opposed to someone like Roy, who's only one. Maybe I'm just not good with them but I feel like neutral especially requires a lot of skill. They seem like they should be easy but oddly aren't.

I think Pyra is pretty easy if you know how to recover with her properly, but it can be hard with learning Mythra's combos and that was the thing I had most difficulty with when I started playing them. Doesn't help even her basic combo routes are harder to do on wifi due to input delay, like with and .

Edit: BTW Leo's going to Super Smash Con

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[NairWizard]

Did you hear this from his Twitter or was he streaming?

Neither, actually, just hearing Leo talk in general. But, reflecting a little and zooming out, Leo's words are just words. I'm sure he'll use Byleth at least sometimes (especially after his Aegis gets run over by Acola).

 

[Hydreigonfan01]

PGRU v3 for NA and EU is done

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Also

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Going off of this comment, it seems it is true. Leo is going more and . Seems to be top tier time.

 

[blackghost]

leo is taking the weights off

 

[NairWizard]

Yeah, I didn’t want to reveal Leo’s private thoughts or personal conversations, but unless he changes his mind, Aegis/Joker will be his duo, though I’m sure his Byleth will play some matchups still (maybe vs Diddy?).

looking back it’s kind of funny that so many were convinced that Byleth is top tier.

You don’t know how lucky we were to have our top players playing high and mid tiers post quarantine.

Steve, Kazuya, and Min Min aren’t running the meta, but I believe that they are the reasons that some top players are feeling forced back to their top tiers. I also think this will trickle down and happen at other levels besides the top 10.

 

[Diddy Kong]

Am pretty sure if Aegis becomes dominant again, Tweek will pick Diddy up again. As so far Diddy is the only matchup that's just only slightly losing for Aegis. But these shifts are crazy to say the least.

 

[F4lcoMain]

Speaking as someone who's learning , they're surprisingly hard to play. Both characters SD very easily and their chains require a lot of practice. Plus you have to learn 2 characters as opposed to someone like Roy, who's only one. Maybe I'm just not good with them but I feel like neutral especially requires a lot of skill. They seem like they should be easy but oddly aren't.

Yea, I found the 2 to be kinda hard to play compared to a lot of other characters like Roy, Ganon, etc. I think the reason their neutral feels a bit harder is because they don't have that "spacing" aerial they can just throw out in Neutral like Roy's Fair or a projectile like Link's Boomerangs. I guess Pyra does have her side B, but that move does have a unique set of drawbacks too.

I think Mythra's neutral is still really good and kinda easy because she can play the evassive game really well due to her high speed. She can sorta be played like a discount Meta Knight where you just go for Dash Grabs and Dash attacks, and her tilts have very low endlag so throwing them out to bait the opponent isn't too difficult. However, her combos do feel a bit tight sometimes, so racking up damage may be a bit hard at first. Once you master the combos though, this should be less of an issue. I think the the biggest problem is that she lacks something like Falco's Up Tilt -> Back Air or Roy's Jab -> Back Air to secure kills easily, so you'll have to switch to Pyra at Kill percent. Unlike Mythra, Pyra can't really throw out too many riskless attacks, though her moveset does pack a punch and good range so she can snuff out kills a lot easier with kill confirms like Down Air -> Up Smash, orher down air to ledge trap (I think F-tilt is a strong move too but idk).