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Official Competitive Character Impressions 2.0

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    584

NairWizard

Somewhere
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Oct 28, 2014
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1,924
How can a character not needing to do any prep for any MU, can just steam roll the best player in the world with no preparation
Matchup preparation is just one element of smash. There are many others.

NairWizard NairWizard saying a guy that just won an s-tier event had no idea how to win certain mu (other than maybe that sora at the end) is just salt talking
Whoa, whoa, watch it before you jump to conclusions. I'm not salty, and I don't think Steve should be banned. In fact, I'm on the other side of this. I don't even think that Steve is the best character in the game, or even top 5.

I'm pointing out a very notable aspect of Steve. Onin was actively playing matchups theoretically wrong but still winning. Steve makes this possible because of block mechanics. It might have made the show slightly less entertaining for me (because I enjoy watching good preparation), but I don't fault Onin for his win. He played great in other ways; in fact, he's so skilled that I was pretty sure that he was going to win before the tournament, regardless of how prepared other players were. His trap setups were some of the best we've seen, and his use of Anvil was dynamic and fun to watch. Anyone trying to discredit his skill in these areas has no idea what they're talking about.

While smash 4 bayo was a menace the fact is many players never choose to even learn how to fight her and just whined. coming from umvc3 that is still funny to me.
It's probably not right to talk smash 4 here, but I've seen you bring this up a few times. I appreciate your viewpoint, but I disagree. The issue with Bayo was that even if you knew how to fight her, the SDI required was really insane. One mistake or overextension of your advantage state into Witch Time or the top part of Witch Twist OOS could put you in a position where you needed to SDI very intensely to not die, and Heel Slide had enough mixups alongside ABK that she could put you in this situation out of burst range too if she wanted.

Bayo certainly had her flaws (landing lag, lengthy animations, etc.), and if you patiently waited for the Witch Time pretty consistently you could probably put together a pretty convincing advantage state against her. Additionally, if you got hit by certain parts of her hitboxes, then you didn't have to SDI as intensely and you could probably survive. This level of spacing precision was well above the standard tourneygoer's level, yet the Bayo combos were not above the standard Bayonetta's level. This meant that on average, if you were facing a decent Bayonetta, you had to SDI like crazy. What resulted was a technical requirement that just soured a lot of players on going to their locals.

This was exacerbated greatly by how common Bayo was. Bayonetta players showed up to tournaments and you had to do this again and again if you wanted to place well (small data point: 6/8 of top 8 for S4 Smash Con this year was Bayo; obviously this is well after S4's lifespan and non-Bayo players mostly quit S4, but even back then there were a lot of Bayonettas everywhere).

I don't think it's fair to blame "scrub mentality" for this. You can blame S4 SDI as a mechanic for this instead of Bayo if you want, that's fine, but I find it a little incredulous that you think failure to adapt was the problem with Bayo. It might have been true for a few cases like ZeRo and a handful of top players, but most of us, as a community, tried, and didn't enjoy where it led us.

Steve is nowhere near comparable to that.
 

Nekoo

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Actually, I'm genuinely curious, because this discussion seems awfully familiar with Smash 4 Bayo times, but-

What EXACTLY makes a character ban worthy?

I'm actually serious, like...where do we draw that line, in a series where we let things like MK Brawl and Bayo happens when clearly no one was happy with it.
 

Hydreigonfan01

Smash Master
Joined
Aug 24, 2018
Messages
4,341
I get the idea of banning Steve in case he gets as dominant as :4bayonetta:or :metaknight:, but I feel like it's a bit of a slippery slope argument and Steve getting that dominant is just flat-out unlikely. That said, I also think Japan would be against a Steve ban to mean that a ban would not actually happen.

Back in the Brawl days, Meta Knight was banned by the Unity Ruleset Committee but this was rather controversial because a lot of Japan's best players (including RAIN, Otori and Etsuji who were the three best in JP at the time) played Meta Knight, so Japan would not fly out to America if Meta Knight was banned. The best player in Japan for Ultimate currently plays Steve, I feel like Japan will get pissed if he actually gets banned because it'd feel as if their best player would be not allowed to fly out to NA majors, which is pretty unfair.
 

KirbySquad101

Smash Ace
Joined
Sep 7, 2015
Messages
927
I don't really know if Steve is banworthy or not tbh, but, I'll say this.

That might've been the most depressing Maister losses I've had to sit through, even moreso than the 6-0 reversals he went through at COLOSSEL and Frostbite.
 
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Kokiden

Smash Ace
Joined
Apr 24, 2019
Messages
782
Actually, I'm genuinely curious, because this discussion seems awfully familiar with Smash 4 Bayo times, but-

What EXACTLY makes a character ban worthy?

I'm actually serious, like...where do we draw that line, in a series where we let things like MK Brawl and Bayo happens when clearly no one was happy with it.
Nothing.

Characters weren't banned in the past, so there's no reason to believe that any action will be taken to get Steve banned.

There will always be a reason as to why he shouldn't be banned, so he won't. This isn't just me being meh about it, but it seems like TO can't agree on what those terms are, and thus it won't happen.

In short, Smash has been too adversed to bans to actually provide a criteria for it. It's something they just don't want to happen.
 

NairWizard

Somewhere
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Oct 28, 2014
Messages
1,924
I'll go out on a limb and say that I don't think any character in smash history has been worthy of a ban, including Brawl MK and S4 Bayo. Brawl MK was in a highly dysfunctional game alongside one of the most broken characters of all time (Ice Climbers) and S4 Cloud existed just a few steps below S4 Bayo. S4's terrible mechanics began to get the better of it toward the end of its lifespan. In both cases, the games were too broken to save by banning, so it was better to abandon them in favor of newer titles.
 

superjm

Smash Apprentice
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Feb 23, 2022
Messages
88
One thing I've got to remark about in particular because it seems to be emblematic of the idea that top pros aren't paying enough attention to the intricacies of fighting Steve: For the love of god please start banning Pokemon Stadium 2. I don't care how comfortable you are on the "default" stage, or how well your own character does on it, Steve should just plain not be allowed to play on there. Pick whatever other poison you prefer from the given stage list but please don't even give them the option of going there.

Fighting Steve on PS2 is already putting yourself at a significant disadvantage before the timer even starts. And I swear I keep seeing people counter-picking Steve to PS2 after they lose and you should just never ever ever do this.
 
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With all the talk about practicing the Steve matchup, I do wonder how Ultimate Smash Summit 5, which happens next month, will shape up. So far, &cola is the only confirmed Steve, but Onin is also a potential player to be invited (as is Yonni for another Steve and Maister as a player to potentially get another chance). And since people tend to practice and train at Summits, it'll be interesting to see how counterplay and counter-counterplay develops over the few days at Summit. We did get to see some developments at the Gimvitational, what with Yonni improving as a player, &cola showing how good Steve is against top NA talent, and players like Riddles, Light, and loaf showing off what they can do to Steve.

That might've been the most depressing Maister losses I've had to sit through, even moreso than the 6-0 reversals he went through at COLOSSEL and Frostbite.
On the bright side for him, he and his Sora are trending on Twitter.
 

ARISTOS

Smash Ace
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Leo should unironically pick up Min Min. This is a hill I’ll die on.
There is no reason for everyone to not have a pocket Min Min IMO. Trying to scrap honestly with Kazuya and Steve seems to be a pointless endeavor, it seems much cleaner to play those matchups with a character that doesn't need to get near them.

Off the top of my head Steve breaks several rules that resource characters in other games carry but the game we have is the game we have
 

blackghost

Smash Champion
Joined
Jul 9, 2015
Messages
2,249
I'm genuinely curious if this Cumminuty will allow the fact that they don't like a character to canbalize its scene. People really need to put the effort into learning the characters and the mu and liek an earlier post stated that started with the stage selection. But historically people Don't counterpick stage well at all. Even elite players.

I'm watching history repeat itself and at this i time largely don't care about the outcome. I just expect smash to attempt to soft or Hard ban rhe best character now whoever it is. Becuase that's how this community rolls. There's always counter play to be found and used but this community is lazy and wants an easy answer.
 

Nobie

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The factor that makes Steve different from Brawl MK and Smash 4 Bayo is that Steve actually has multiple losing matchups. It's just that Steve can neutralize a lot of what makes the top tiers top tier (like effectively edgeguarding G&W wtf).

What if the Steves had to fight through a gauntlet of top-level Min Min, Hero, and Yoshi? acola can pull it off, sure, but there are characters who prevent Steve from playing his game. Like, imagine if Meta Knight in Brawl had even two losing matchups. Things would not have turned out the way they did.

Heck, we live in a time where Abadango pulled out Mega Knight to wipe the floor with Min Min. I have faith that the meta will adjust.
 
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StoicPhantom

Smash Ace
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Dec 11, 2018
Messages
618
The Knights of yore were proud in their chivalry and prowess in a duel until they were unceremoniously pulled from their horses and hacked to death through the weak points in their shiny armor by the common soldiers in real warfare. Suddenly, there were no more knights.


In my studies of violence in the real world there exists a mentality I'll refer to as the "Trained Fighter" mentality. These are people who train in specific systems that end up teaching certain concepts not unlike those found in fighting games. The familiar concepts of
distance and timing is there as well as other attempts to turn fighting into a science such as defining actions based on their likelihood of working a certain percentage of the time (e.g. this move only has a 40% of working at the time).

In this environment a certain sense of elitism tends to spring up and the idea comes about that if one is trained they should be able to beat any untrained fighter, right? And perhaps they will be privileged enough to continue believing this. Or perhaps they bump into the wrong person at the local bar and a fight ensues. And as they take their stance and start playing the footsies like in their dojo/gym their
opponent suddenly charges in wildly swinging and one of those haymakers manages to land cleanly and knock our trained fighter out. It is true that his opponent doesn't know a lick of how to fight "properly" but it is also true that he cares little for "feints" and other petty tricks a trained fighter might pull as a result. A straight charge with no regard for the rules of "proper" fighting seems to be what
does in most trained fighters when they lose to an untrained one. And that's if they're lucky.

Perhaps the trained fighter does successfully manage to get his opponent in a clinch and is working on a takedown. And because his opponent doesn't know how to deal with a trained grappler he starts "losing" so to speak. Or at least that's what our trained fighter thinks until they feel the unfamiliar sensation of a cold blade sliding in between their ribs. It is here when our trained fighter learns that not only do people that carry hidden knives for this exact occasion exist, but they also are absolutely willing to use them to protect their cheap pride. And you can't really ***** on Twitter about an unfair fight when you're in a body bag.


And I think there exists a parallel in fighting games as well. I keep seeing people go on about the "proper" way to play, like only using moves that have a high percentage of success or talking about playing MUs right or wrong and others. And yes, I suppose there has been lots of study in how to "properly" play fighting games. And people study extensively the "proper" way to do things and practice against other experienced fighters. They assign each other ranks and positions of status within the club. And they all of course develop a certain sense of elitism that they're better than anyone that doesn't go about things the way they did. At least until they venture outside their club for a bit.

When they face an online opponent that doesn't quite go along the familiar patterns they're used to, things begin to change. The half-hearted movements they call "feints" get steam-rolled by an opponent that neither knows nor cares about safe movement. The petty tricks and mindgames go ignored by someone that is only concerned with doing what he wants to do. And our trained fighter gets shaken when he finds out he can't read his opponent's moves because they don't follow the rules or familiar patterns. This leads to the sort of incoherence that makes our trained fighter run right into the attacks of the lowly untrained fighter. And most likely leads to the untrained fighter winning in the end. And causes our trained fighter to immediately run away.

After the no doubt strong feelings stemming from this loss die down the rationalizations start in. The trained fighter convinces himself that he didn't really lose because the untrained fighter wasn't even fighting properly. Perhaps it was lag or the untrained fighter was using "cheap" tactics. And of course in a different arena, and if his opponent was playing properly, the trained fighter would absolutely
win. After all, the trained fighter did spend all that time learning how to fight "properly" right?


Onin isn't carried by Steve because he grinds Quickplay or didn't prepare for his opponents. He doesn't have to prepare for his opponents because he can properly adapt to who he's playing against in the moment. He can do that because of his experience playing all kinds of different opponents and their playstyles online. And of course, the latency of their connections if any. That's the mark of a true master. When you can handle yourself in an unfamiliar environment without familiar structures or rules. Much like a professional musician can play a piece they've never seen before because they've mastered all the potential patterns in music, someone that has lots of experience against wildly different styles can adapt much easier to unfamiliar styles and players. Certainly so if they are allowed to play an entire set as opposed to the one-and-doners on Quickplay.

It's your false idols that give backhanded compliments to the winner on Twitter while insinuating that they only won because of their character that are only masters of their dojo. The ones who talk in front of the cameras about Smash bringing everyone together while charging their fellow players money to even interact with if they are considered beneath them. The ones that abhor Quickplay and only play in exclusive and filtered arenas or refuse to interact with anyone but other top players and only offline. The ones that refused to play online during lockdowns. Ultimately, the ones who deliberately insulate themselves in a bubble of familiar structures and styles while scoffing at anyone that they don't consider part of the elite like them.

Onin deserved that win far more than a lot of the so-called top players that have been phoning it in for a long time now. That play was immaculate and you can tell he's very intelligent in how he avoided the usual bull**** you see in top level play. The idea that Steve is uniquely strong and breaks the rules when Onin had to face everything from Peach's Float to whatever other top tier bull**** he had to face off camera. Let's not forget that not too long ago people were discussing how Tweek had to finally succumb to playing the braindead easy characters because it was too hard to play anyone remotely intelligent. To go from that to pretending Steve needs a ban or deriding Onin's victory as somehow illegitimate is really something. To pretend that because your favorite celebrity lost, it must be because there is something wrong with the opponent's character is on another plane entirely. Remember when Smash had its MeToo movement and the community swore it would end its celebrity obsession? lol.


I really enjoyed watching his play and that's not something I've been able to say about Ultimate for a long time. It was refreshing to see genuinely good defensive play in a meta that has been taken over by mindless aggression and mashing. Actual defensive movement and micro-spacing rather than overrelying on insane aerial drift, hurtbox shifting, and the dumbass dodge mechanics. Hard punishing mindless play instead of nickel-and-dimeing your opponent to a safe Nair kill at 150+. Real ledge traps that weren't just mashing Nair at the ledge. Something that felt like it was from a real fighting game and not a parody of one. It's just a shame that a good and unique player like him isn't going to be rewarded as it should.

Bottom line, you either win or you don't. There is no "not playing properly" or using "unfair tactics" or whatever other nonsense. There is only what works or what doesn't. Top level play has almost always been decided by someone using the "wrong" move at the right time. Not knowing the MU is not an excuse. Someone actually playing defensive for once is not an excuse either. If you can't deal with defensive play you rightfully get washed out of mid level in a real fighting game. Hopefully we get more players like Onin who can potentially shift this mind-numbingly boring stagnation that is the current meta.
 

KirbySquad101

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Messages
927
Meta shifts is an element to consider concerning Steve, especially if you look at how the US has been handling him currently vs. Japan.

We all know that acola is one of the most dominant players in his region and has overcame MUs you'd think Steve wouldn't do that great in (Yoshi and Shulk particularly). At the same time, you've never seen him dominate tournaments as easily as Onin just did here, and that isn't anymore apparent when looking at his 10-game set against Miya at Sumabato versus Onin's 6-1 sweep against Maister. If Miya can make GnW-Steve look as close to even as possible against a top 5 player, then Maister technically shouldn't have struggled as badly as he had did against an arguably worse Steve.

But that's another thing: Is Onin that much worse than Acola? It's easy to suggest that's the case given his misplays/lack of adaptation, but every other NA Steve besides him has always fallen short of peak placements. Players like MKLeo and Maister have looked comfortable against previous Steves (they looked fine against DDog in this tourney alone), and yet Onin made both look like 0-2ers. It's clear he's doing something different with his Steve that basically no one was prepared for, not even Riddles whose fought him in the past.

In a way, it renders all that experience NA players have gotten from fighting Steves through yonni, Jake, DDee, DDog, etc. pretty much obsolete and now they're back to square one in figuring things out again. When I look at it from that angle, the frustration of these players is understandable, and I don't really blame them for wanting to jump the gun on more "permanent" solutions like potential bans. But in a way, it finally gives these top players a chance to step up to the plate on the Steve MU like Japan has. Should a Steve like acola's or Onin's show up again, NA Ult's players will now have the resources to figure things out far better than they ever did this tournament now they have their own "peak" Steve to learn from.
 
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Sucumbio

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Actually, I'm genuinely curious, because this discussion seems awfully familiar with Smash 4 Bayo times, but-

What EXACTLY makes a character ban worthy?

I'm actually serious, like...where do we draw that line, in a series where we let things like MK Brawl and Bayo happens when clearly no one was happy with it.
The idea to ban a character begins with assessing how "over centralized" or "degenerate" the gameplay becomes if they're allowed to continue to be playable. Obviously we're not even close to that scenario. Besides which this particular tournament highlights one fatal flaw I've seen repeat itself for almost 2 decades now. When players ranging from "scrub" to pro REFUSE to adapt and instead charge head long into their matches trying to win Their way. Steve and to a lesser extent Ultimate in general has been balanced in such a way as to punish blindly pursuing victory. Players will have to slow down, take a few to think, and start looking for ways to punish Steve. Until then he'll continue to be the dominant type. He's got insane vertical mobility, hits like a truck and plays a very defensive punish game. It's going to be a while before he's put back in check from other dominant characters but he's not invincible or even unfair.

This could be used as an argument for him being over centralized because it's forcing the meta to deal with only him, but that's only a face value take. In all honesty he's no more centralizing than Aegis or dare I say Byleth lol. Once people began to crack Leo's Byleth he switched. People will crack Steve.
 

Goodstyle_4

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Aug 25, 2014
Messages
278
Starting to come around on the "Mythra/Pyra" overrated talk.

Obviously, a very good character, but man that recovery is untenable against characters that are good at edgeguarding.

Also, they're actually bad at pressuring shields believe it or not, OSS is really good against them both.
 

Rizen

Smash Legend
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Meta shifts is an element to consider concerning Steve, especially if you look at how the US has been handling him currently vs. Japan.

We all know that acola is one of the most dominant players in his region and has overcame MUs you'd think Steve wouldn't do that great in (Yoshi and Shulk particularly). At the same time, you've never seen him dominate tournaments as easily as Onin just did here, and that isn't anymore apparent when looking at his 10-game set against Miya at Sumabato versus Onin's 6-1 sweep against Maister. If Miya can make GnW-Steve look as close to even as possible against a top 5 player, then Maister technically shouldn't have struggled as badly as he had did against an arguably worse Steve.

But that's another thing: Is Onin that much worse than Acola? It's easy to suggest that's the case given his misplays/lack of adaptation, but every other NA Steve besides him has always fallen short of peak placements. Players like MKLeo and Maister have looked comfortable against previous Steves (they looked fine against DDog in this tourney alone), and yet Onin made both look like 0-2ers. It's clear he's doing something different with his Steve that basically no one was prepared for, not even Riddles whose fought him in the past.

In a way, it renders all that experience NA players have gotten from fighting Steves through yonni, Jake, DDee, DDog, etc. pretty much obsolete and now they're back to square one in figuring things out again. When I look at it from that angle, the frustration of these players is understandable, and I don't really blame them for wanting to jump the gun on more "permanent" solutions like potential bans. But in a way, it finally gives these top players a chance to step up to the plate on the Steve MU like Japan has. Should a Steve like acola's or Onin's show up again, NA Ult's players will now have the resources to figure things out far better than they ever did this tournament now they have their own "peak" Steve to learn from.
Piggybacking on this, tournament players will tell you sometimes you're just not prepared for an opponent at this high a level when fighting certain characters. It's not uncommon to get 3 stocked in Ultimate even for pros. I hadn't played a really good Mewtwo before and got three stocked by him in one tournament but later got some friendlies off and beat him in the next tournament. What I'm saying is don't take too much from Onin's dominance in one tournament. Players like MKLeo will come back and adapt like they always have.
That's not to discredit Onin in any way; he played phenomenally. This is what happens when top tiers click with lesser known players. And Steve is getting multiple results; this isn't a freak occurrence. Steve's definitely top tier.
 

superjm

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Feb 23, 2022
Messages
88
Starting to come around on the "Mythra/Pyra" overrated talk.

Obviously, a very good character, but man that recovery is untenable against characters that are good at edgeguarding.

Also, they're actually bad at pressuring shields believe it or not, OSS is really good against them both.
I don’t buy it. Their weaknesses aren’t appreciably more debilitating than any other top tier and their tools are oppressive and omnipresent. Leo played his worst tournament in a long time and you can argue that Aegis was a huge factor in what kept him afloat up until he ran into Gluto (and we’ve seen his Aegis play way better, as recently as literally the last major he won.)

You can’t conflate “Character has weaknesses” (more like A weakness in this case) with “character is overrated”, that’s not how this works.
 

Eremurus

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bring back pluto

Cherry-picked data, like anything else, but oh well.
 
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NairWizard

Somewhere
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Oct 28, 2014
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I wasn't going to reply on this topic again but since StoicPhantom put so much effort into their post, I figured I should give it a response (SP, you don't have to feel obligated to reply to this; consider my disagreement food for thought instead of an attack on your position).

I sense a lot of resentment in your post. It seems to me, and feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, like you're a pretty good WiFi Zelda and you're probably reacting against people who try to downplay your skill because of how many reads you make and the fact that you play online. It doesn't make sense to you because you have success online, so you don't believe in the idea of "theoretically sound gameplay."

First of all, I'm sorry that people have downplayed your skill and your game mode. Truly, on behalf of the smash community. Pre-pandemic, it was unfathomable to place weight on the online mode; during the pandemic, it became a necessity, and tournaments died. This sudden shift was something very difficult that we underwent together as a community, and somehow, today, we're still standing on the other side. The transition is something to be proud of given how smooth it's been, but we look back today on online with some heavy reservations. For that, I understand your (sort of intense) viewpoint and I'm sympathetic to the feelings that led to it. Everyone has a way that they like to play. Online, for all its problems, is a valid way to enjoy the game and be good at it.

The fact is, though, that people do appreciate the value of online and the skill necessary to succeed online. In fact, you can't be good in smash any more these days without playing online just because of how many characters there are and the rate of meta acceleration; you can't be ready for everything without that practice. Online preparation is just as important as in-person preparation unless you have very high adaptability naturally (Mkleo for instance is a very adaptive player and can learn matchups as he plays them, with a few notable historic exceptions; acola is another. One plays online, and the other doesn't, but both have the skill of adaptation).

What you're describing doesn't happen that much. Top players don't go online, lose, then disparage online because it doesn't conform to their expected style of play. If they complain about Quickplay, it's usually just the normal trashtalking that they do even offline (believe me, it's mostly salty banter), or expressing frustration about the diminished value of reaction.

Actually, though, most top players play online a lot. Fatality spends a great deal of time on Quickplay. Tweek exclusively plays online, even if it's an arena. And so on.

And I think there exists a parallel in fighting games as well. I keep seeing people go on about the "proper" way to play, like only using moves that have a high percentage of success or talking about playing MUs right or wrong and others. And yes, I suppose there has been lots of study in how to "properly" play fighting games. And people study extensively the "proper" way to do things and practice against other experienced fighters. They assign each other ranks and positions of status within the club. And they all of course develop a certain sense of elitism that they're better than anyone that doesn't go about things the way they did. At least until they venture outside their club for a bit.
Most really good players (the top players whom you're talking about) are really good online too. There have been a few historically, like Samsora, to whom this hasn't applied, and a few who refused to play like DarkWizzy, but for the most part, being top-level offline translates to being top-level online.

You might be surprised to hear that most of us also believe that it goes the other way around too. Most players who are really good online are good offline too. Sparg0, Miya, Acola, and so many more. This is because online and offline share a skillset that's important to smash. Adaptation, spacing, edgeguarding, reads, etc. There are countless things that are important in both modes.

But of course there are differences, online isn't just offline with training weights.

Online diminishes the value of reactive ledgetrapping and reaction-based setups. If players can adjust to this going from one to the other, they can be good at both. For some players, this isn't entirely possible. Scend is one of the best online players, but his reactions are a bit slower, and he plays a character particularly vulnerable to reactive setups, so his offline results go down in accordance with that gap. He's still great offline, but comparatively worse compared to online.

sparg0, on the other hand, was struggling to beat top players offline at first, but then MKLeo gave him advice on how to mix in reaction in his playstyle; sparg0 took the advice, found that it was within his capabilities to react the way top players do, and then started beating everyone after combining the skillsets.
Acola and Miya have translated their online success directly to offline without such intervention too.

Everyone has a different combination of skills. Ultimately what we're here to spectate is tournaments, not WiFi matches. That's why we care so much for tournament results and sometimes (wrongly) discredit online entirely.

When they face an online opponent that doesn't quite go along the familiar patterns they're used to, things begin to change. The half-hearted movements they call "feints" get steam-rolled by an opponent that neither knows nor cares about safe movement. The petty tricks and mindgames go ignored by someone that is only concerned with doing what he wants to do.
What you do here when you run into someone who doesn't have high-level movement is lower the level of your play. If you don't play to your opponent's play you'll always lose, no matter how good you are. Most smash "trained fighters" know this. This is true in smash and also most competitive sports. Dabuz, Fatality, and Marss (who are all great online as well as offline and play a lot of online) have talked about this extensively on their streams; their opening move in any match is to assess the level of their opponent and play at that level. If you don't, then yes, you're making feints for no reason, you're waiting to react to something that won't ever happen.

If you know how to react to ledgeroll and ledge jump and always prepare for it but your opponent never does anything but getup attack, then of course you're going to lose. You have to adapt to the level of play. (For tournament players who play in long brackets and get top 8s, this is actually an essential and under-discussed skill for a completely different reason. You can't play your best earlier in bracket because you will wear yourself out)

He doesn't have to prepare for his opponents because he can properly adapt to who he's playing against in the moment. He can do that because of his experience playing all kinds of different opponents and their playstyles online.
Adaptability is an important aspect of skill for sure, much more important than preparation overall. But this is actually one of the things that I felt was missing from Onin's play as I was watching. He wasn't as good at adapting as other players. In fact, he rarely needed to adapt. He used the same gameplan against everyone. If his opponent started adapting, Onin's adaptation generally consisted of placing a block to rearrange the stage in such a way that the adaptation would no longer matter. You can call that some kind of adaptation for sure - it certainly takes knowledge - but it is something uniquely available to Steve. It's not that Steve is particularly bull****, but you have to account for a character's uniqueness when discussing them.

This is generalizing, because obviously to win a tournament of this caliber you need some level of normal adaptation too, and Onin has that (unlike someone like Jake, for example; it's no exaggeration to say that Onin is a top 10 player right now, or better, which definitely requires adaptation), but you can still draw Steve-specific conclusions from observing the trend.

It's the same as Min Min being able to ledgetrap without any risk from center stage. This is something unique to Min Min and she doesn't need to prepare for your character to be able to do it (except in a few cases, e.g., Pikachu); there are few mixups available for you, so in this situation you must play Min Min's game.

In neutral, and advantage, and sometimes disadvantage, Steve can set up his gameplan and you have to play the game his way.

Does this mean that Steve players aren't skilled or didn't deserve to win? Of course not. It means that they can win without knowing how to DI Wario combos, or how to play reactively against a Fox b-airing their shields, because they can avoid those situations with the right block placement. But that's not a knock on their skill.

We're (or at least I'm) not trying to take away from the skills Onin showed in tourney -- great ledgetrapping, impeccable reactive burst (not an online skill, really; Onin has plenty of offline skills too), very creative setups, juggling, etc. With all those skills he's definitely top-10 caliber. We're pointing out the areas where Onin's skill was deficient and having a discourse on Steve based on those gaps. Onin was clearly not particularly skilled in disadvantage drift, neutral adaptation (though it's worth noting how well he spaced around Game and Watch shield in Grands), or top-level MUs. His other skills were sufficient to win (which I suspected they would be going into this tournament). This doesn't mean that those other skills are more important or impressive, but we can use this unique combination of player strengths and weaknesses to say some important things about his character.

I really enjoyed watching his play and that's not something I've been able to say about Ultimate for a long time. It was refreshing to see genuinely good defensive play in a meta that has been taken over by mindless aggression and mashing. Actual defensive movement and micro-spacing
But we see this all the time from players like Mkleo and Dabuz and even acola (who is a wizard with spacing!). Defensive movement and microspacing. It's a cornerstone of the meta (so is mashing, though, you're right).

I wouldn't characterize Onin's playstyle as defensive either. If you hear other Steves talking about Onin, they often mention how he's aggressive and scrappy ("mashy" as Onin has characterized his own gameplay at a few points, though there's absolutely nothing wrong with mashing). Onin's defensive play was regardless pretty clean and interesting to watch when it happened, but it's strange to highlight Onin as a bastion of defensive gameplay. You want tactical defensive gameplay, you have Dabuz. You want crazy setups and aggressive burst, you have Onin.

Bottom line, you either win or you don't. There is no "not playing properly" or using "unfair tactics" or whatever other nonsense. There is only what works or what doesn't.
A fairly reductionist way to look at things. Read-based play has always been less consistent than reaction-based play, but this doesn't mean it's not viable at all to make reads. When we say that you should play properly, it's because we know that it works when you can react to things more often (reactions are guaranteed and reads aren't). We're not saying that you can never up-smash to call out an aerial opponent or something--knowing when to go for a read is an important part of being a top player too. Some top players specialize in reads (Marss, ESAM), while others play it completely and overly safe (Tweek), while others are in the middle and do plenty of both (Leo, sparg0). And, of course, "playing properly" also includes other things, like DIng moves properly, knowing at what percents Wario waft comes online and avoiding it, etc.

You can win a matchup against a top player without playing the matchup properly. Everyone knows that the best way to beat Mario if you're playing Lucina is to space your sword at the tip with plenty of microspacing and safe setups. You get one zoning n-air or f-air and then go to town in advantage and destroy the Mario. Not playing this matchup properly would entail not trying to space and instead getting up close to Mario trying to grab or something and set up a win that way.

You can also win a matchup without knowing how to DI a combo. If you die every time you get hit by Bayonetta side-b, but you outplay your opponent such that you only get hit by it once a match, then it doesn't matter if you were playing properly - though it still stands to reason that you'd do better if you did.

Can you win playing this way? Absolutely. It isn't the best way, but you can win.

Watching talented players who find the best way to surgically destroy someone is entertaining. When sparg0 3-stocks Tea because he knows the perfect drift for every situation and leaves Pacman helpless with 0 options, man, that's really fun to watch. That's not to say that more brute-force options can't be entertaining, though. Plenty of people like watching Kola who is notorious for having next to 0 preparation for matchups.

Also worth noting is that there is another class of players--those who know how to play matchups properly but still choose to go for hard reads that don't conform to that knowledge. These are players like Fatality and sometimes Marss. Their results are usually pretty mixed.

Finally, I want to end this part on the note that I think you're finding the wrong example for your point. Onin isn't a WiFi warrior with unconventional, overlooked tactics who is suddenly beating everyone in their "dojo" and proving that top players were shams all along (which, as an aside, is honestly really crazy to hear as someone who's played against the best on WiFi and played top players a bunch in person; top players are top because they have insane reaction times and are so quick to catch habits)--if anything, that's already happened on a different level, because you can say that about Miya or sparg0 or Kola. They were WiFi warriors who played the game in a wildly different way and changed the ongoing meta when they arrived on the scene.

Onin, instead, is the peak representation of a setup and resource character who plays differently from any that smash has seen. There is much to be impressed about with his play, but I don't think he fits in the narrative that you're presenting, on basically any axis.

this mind-numbingly boring stagnation that is the current meta.
The meta literally changes every week at top level right now, it's insane and impossible to keep up with. Dabuz, Sonix, and Riddles alone have come up with so many innovations in the last few weeks that it's mind-boggling. It's not just Onin. I see something completely wild every single tournament, and usually dozens of somethings.

tweek & switching to braindead characters
Tweek has held top 10 results (mostly top 5) with a dozen different characters. Switching to the so-called braindead characters actually always hurts his results instead of boost them. Leo and Tweek have had worse results after going full Aegis. There's a lot more to it than the simplicity of the character. I actually am having a hard time understanding which top players are phony or phoning it in by your framework because all of the ones we typically see (Riddles Sparg0 Tweek Leo Dabuz etc) are just so good on all the axes you mention.

There is an argument to be made for Maister lacking some important smash fundamentals that shows up when he uses any non-Game-and-Watch character, but even then, Maister is pretty similar to Onin in that regard. A character master instead of a game master. Nothing wrong with that, both are phenomenal regardless. Would be really hard to say that either is "phoning it in."

You have to qualify this a little bit, at least. Outside of Onin, did any of those top Steve players get a win above their seed?

Regardless, while I hold that Steve isn't a problem and isn't unfair, the data is actually fairly suggestive in this regard.
Steve has the highest winrate online, and is also the most played character online.
Steve is the most played character offline in top brackets, and also has the highest rank on OrionStats.
Two Steves won big tournaments yesterday on opposite ends of the world.

Steve is making a compelling case for being the best this game's ever seen. I don't buy it or think that Steve is top 5, but the data suggests that it's possible.
 
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Hydreigonfan01

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Cherry-picked data, like anything else, but oh well.
There's a lot better data that isn't cherry-picked here.
https://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/comments/woum5u
It's important to mention that a lot of Steve mains at the event made a lot of upsets, however DDog and Apple didn't make too many despite their high Seed Performance Rating, as they had lucky brackets as both ESAM and acola DQ'd. In addition, Apple's big upsets were with :ulticeclimbers:.
 
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Garo

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I've kinda stopped following competitive Smash, but the Steve "domination" has somewhat revitalized my interest. For some reason watching how players try to deal with a character with such unique and interesting tools is much more compelling than watching them try to deal with a specific player (so far usually Leo). It'll be interesting to see what kind of counterplay will develop down the line, as long as they don't ban him. Ridley in particular has some unique interactions with Steve, what with Skewer being capable of destroying the crafting table very quickly to consume resources and Space Pirate Rush being able to slam Steve against his own blocks. I'm not saying these things will matter on a competitive level, I just find them interesting.
 

NairWizard

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By the way, one thing I think is hilariously awesome is how Onin picked up Steve because he kept losing to Steve. If you think a character is really broken, then pick up that character and show it. It's always been the way. I think Steve is fine, but if he's broken I really hope every top player picks up a Steve (guaranteeing you now that it won't happen and we'll see adaptation instead).
 

Hydreigonfan01

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By the way, one thing I think is hilariously awesome is how Onin picked up Steve because he kept losing to Steve. If you think a character is really broken, then pick up that character and show it. It's always been the way. I think Steve is fine, but if he's broken I really hope every top player picks up a Steve (guaranteeing you now that it won't happen and we'll see adaptation instead).
Zackray picked up Joker after he lost to Leo's Joker twice in a row. I believe Sparg0 became serious on Aegis after he lost to Leo's Aegis in wifi friendlies. It occasionally does happen.
 

Thinkaman

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I'll go out on a limb and say that I don't think any character in smash history has been worthy of a ban, including Melee Fox and 64 Pikachu
Editted for fun and accuracy.

Fun trivia of the day: There is one playable Smash character who deserves to be banned, which is Melee Master Hand for multiple very valid reason. (Unintended esoteric glitch, port-specific/cannot be mirrored, cannot die, all matches go to timeout + crash the game.)
 

Hydreigonfan01

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Seems like most TOs are not serious on banning Steve and think it's stupid, either by baiting people and not actually doing anything, or by ****posting.
 

Cheryl~

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One really funny thing to note about this weekend is that the two biggest events, Smash Con and Sumabato, ended up having the same characters in their respective top 3s. Steve, Mr. Game and Watch, and Fox. (ofc if we count secondaries this becomes much different as everyone in Sumabato's top 3 had a secondary and Maister brought out the Sora for Grands) Despite how much everyone likes to talk about how Japan plays differently than the US, it seems like our metas have finally come together. Also, I would totally peep the Acola vs. Miya Grands if you haven't already. Its interesting to see how Miya excels against Steve compared to Maister (who is actually pretty good at the matchup but Onin taught him a thing or two), and how Acola was really tested when Onin was not.
 

Kokiden

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Seems like most TOs are not serious on banning Steve and think it's stupid, either by baiting people and not actually doing anything, or by ****posting.
I said it before and I'll say it again. The smash fanbase is adversed to bans in general. It's not something those in charge want to even think about.

When it comes to these types of topics, II see it as both a player and a character thing, but I think those who are adversed to bans attribute 100% the blame to players, never mind if a character is overtuned...

I think these types of bait posts show that type of mentality more than anything, which just reaffirms that bans just won't ever happen because they're treated as a joke.
 

Hippieslayer

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Characters who can stay at a range where they can react to minecart and/or grab while still threatening Steve with projectiles, range or burst options should kinda be able to handle him even though he's overtuned. I mean he still has the fundamental issues which made a lot of people think he wasn't a top tier earlier?
 
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Rise and Grind seeding is out.

Reddit thread: https://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/comments/wpoknz/rise_n_grind_preliminary_seeding_132/

I'm guessing Onin wins again? One week is hardly enough time for Maister and Leo to learn the Steve matchup at that level (though you never know), and Gluto/Light are absent.
Looking at the projected brackets, Onin would have to face also face Lui$, Zomba, and/or Kola to win the tournament. There's also a possibility that he faces MuteAce again, and they had a close set at Smash Con. I'd be on the lookout on Onin vs Kola considering how Kola has fared against Steves (I believe he took &cola to game 5 at the Gimivtational?) and if MuteAce gets his runback.
 
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Hydreigonfan01

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Looking at the projected brackets, Onin would have to face also face Lui$, Zomba, and/or Kola to win the tournament. There's also a possibility that he faces MuteAce again, and they had a close set at Smash Con. I'd be on the lookout on Onin vs Kola considering how Kola has fared against Steves (I believe he took &cola to game 5 at the Gimivtational?) and if MuteAce gets his runback.
Zomba is also really good at the Steve MU, he lives in the same region as DDog and has beaten Yonni before. Also in general it seems ROB does well against Steve, because WaDi has beaten some of the pentagram himself.

BTW here's some data on the non Onin-Steve's and how many upsets they actually did. Turns out, that the non-Onin Steve's in top 64 made less big upsets than Peanut's Little Mac. Onin needs a lot more credit on his run then "Steve is broken".
https://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/comments/wpxgoq
 
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Sucumbio

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I think this was already known but just goes to show how players just need to breath a bit and not rush blindly into the matchup.
 

NairWizard

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No one should be saying that Onin won because of Steve besides armchair reddit theorists who've never been to a tournament (and Light/Marss, New England salt is just a brand at this point). Now, you've heard what I have to say about Steve already, but saying that Steve is matchup-resistant is one thing; saying that Onin won because he plays Steve is just ignorant to the way top-level play works.

Every single player in top 32 of that bracket is absolutely bonkers insane at the game. It really takes being at tournaments yourself to appreciate how big the skill gap is, but those players can destroy most of the players who destroy you at your regionals. Nairo destroys virtually everyone he plays all the time but got smoked at his birthday bash just to due being out of touch with the top-level meta.

And that's Nairo! One of the best players ever!

Top players win matchups in which they are strongly unfavored all the time. Elegant beats Richters with Luigi. If you can beat Richter with Luigi, you can beat Steve with any top tier. You can even beat Steve with any mid tier.

No matter how good you think Steve is, it's not good enough to break through Leo, Maister, and Gluto without a top-level pilot.

Shaya at this point would usually remind everyone that it took quite some time for bows to completely fall out of favor after guns were invented, because the best bowmen found ways to "play around" gunmen.

Even if Steve were as good as Brawl MK or S4 Bayo or better, people would still find ways to beat Steve. Steve could be completely banworthy and people would still find ways to beat Steve. That's how good top players are. Onin isn't beating such players because of Steve, he's beating such players because he's good.
 

Kokiden

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Rise and Grind seeding is out.

I'm guessing Onin wins again? One week is hardly enough time for Maister and Leo to learn the Steve matchup at that level (though you never know), and Gluto/Light are absent.
That's my guess now.

Even if Steve were as good as Brawl MK or S4 Bayo or better, people would still find ways to beat Steve. Steve could be completely banworthy and people would still find ways to beat Steve. That's how good top players are. Onin isn't beating such players because of Steve, he's beating such players because he's good.
I don't get why people are never attributing victories to the character, when it's both.

He's good, yes. But can he do the same with another character? No.

I just don't get this constant denial that characters play a huge role, yet some are so adamant on downplaying it.

And before you ask, yes, your post is coming off as attributing all of his wins to how he plays, and not, if any on the character he chooses.

Also, about "Steve being ban worth and people would still find ways to beat him", there is no such thing as a 100% victory track record. Even the best of the best can't achieve that, so acknowledging even in a hypothetical scenario that a character could be ban worthy, but nah let's just leave him as is because there is still a 1% chance to beat him is just...
 
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Trunks159

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That's my guess now.



I don't get why people are never attributing victories to the character, when it's both.

He's good, yes. But can he do the same with another character? No.

I just don't get this constant denial that characters play a huge role, yet some are so adamant on downplaying it.

And before you ask, yes, your post is coming off as attributing all of his wins to how he plays, and not, if any on the character he chooses.

Also, about "Steve being ban worth and people would still find ways to beat him", there is no such thing as a 100% victory track record. Even the best of the best can't achieve that, so acknowledging even in a hypothetical scenario that a character could be ban worthy, but nah let's just leave him as is because there is still a 1% chance to beat him is just...
It's one of those 'both are true' situations. Generally the consensus seems to be that Onin is carried by Steve and ONLY that. It's important to emphasize the other side.
 

superjm

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That's my guess now.



I don't get why people are never attributing victories to the character, when it's both.

He's good, yes. But can he do the same with another character? No.

I just don't get this constant denial that characters play a huge role, yet some are so adamant on downplaying it.

And before you ask, yes, your post is coming off as attributing all of his wins to how he plays, and not, if any on the character he chooses.
I mean yeah, players benefit from picking good characters. What a shock. You think Leo got to 5th place JUST because he's Leo and not because he was piloting a different busted character to power through his relative inconsistent play? We tend to evaluate in terms of player vs player because every character used in top level play has strong, sometimes busted tools that allow the player to apply their skillset most effectively. Steve is absolutely no different in this regard, and just because he may end up being the "best" of the busted top tier when everything shakes out doesn't mean he should be treated different than any other character.

Also, about "Steve being ban worth and people would still find ways to beat him", there is no such thing as a 100% victory track record. Even the best of the best can't achieve that, so acknowledging even in a hypothetical scenario that a character could be ban worthy, but nah let's just leave him as is because there is still a 1% chance to beat him is just...
Steve is not going to achieve a win rate remotely high enough to even consider the idea of a ban, which I think was the entire point of his post, correct me if I'm wrong.
 

NairWizard

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Things aren't so black and white; some of the takes on this topic here and across smash media are sort of insane to me--everything from Onin is completely carried and only beat Leo because of Steve to maybe top players aren't actually good to Onin is clearly #1 and better than Acola.

All of the following could be simultaneously true:
  • Steve mains don't need to learn matchups in the way that most other characters do
  • Steve is the strongest character
  • Onin is a top player and very skilled, independent of Steve
  • Onin is particularly skilled at playing Steve (like Maister with Game and Watch), instead of being a generalist

A number of other combinations exist; this is just one possible reality.

Also, about "Steve being ban worth and people would still find ways to beat him", there is no such thing as a 100% victory track record. Even the best of the best can't achieve that, so acknowledging even in a hypothetical scenario that a character could be ban worthy, but nah let's just leave him as is because there is still a 1% chance to beat him is just...
If you want a ban, ban criteria has to be different from "this character always wins." Because no character will always win. Player skill and diversity of character choice ensure that. You will always encounter the argument that X player beat Y character, so Y is beatable, if you choose "winning a lot" as your precondition.

Basically, pick a different framework to justify a call to ban. Onin winning a couple of tournaments isn't it, or else we'd have banned Joker back when Leo was doing well with him.
 
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