Official Competitive Character Impressions 2.0

[Wigglerman]

Nah plant is fine maybe a bit underpowered, but he/she performs as a tanky trap character specially as a tanky ledge tramp character very well.

Just look at how Brood plays the character, he is solid.

Give side b more duration and size and faster start up and he becomes high tier.

I quite like Plant, all considered. I admit the character feels almost...incomplete somehow or perhaps lacking a little polish here or there. But I really like the character as a proof of concept. I mean, if Sakurai and his team can make a pipe bound plant into a full character then there really isn't much he couldn't make into a playable character which just continued to be proven throughout the DLC life cycle.

Plant has some problems but is really fun to play, though I do despise its tilts (Specifically d-tilt and u-tilt) for feeling incredibly stubby, having so few active frames and lead to little or nothing but Plant's specials kit is fun, even if u-special either feels great or terrible depending on the match up

 

[Sucumbio]

Any news from CEO? I'm at work and haven't had a chance to catch up on it

 

[Hydreigonfan01]

Any news from CEO? I'm at work and haven't had a chance to catch up on it

Funny you should say that

CEO Top 8
Winners
Tweek vs Toast
Riddles vs Dabuz

Losers
Marss vs MVD
Sonix vs WaDi

 

[Sucumbio]

Marss put his joker back in the pocket eh? Against mvd he may be ok I don't know the matchup.

 

[blackghost]

I'm so glad we just had this discussion on healthy characters just in time to watch sonic in top 8. sometimes this thread is prophetic.

im no rob expert but why come out with rob vs a sonic playing this well?

 

[NairWizard]

Watching Sonix time out Olimar has to be an all-time low in my smash spectating history, and I've been watching since m2k's Brawl Meta Knight vs. Ice Climbers. It's way worse than Steve or Kazuya. I actually really liked Sonic vs. Kazuya, though; the dynamic was fun to watch.

 

[blackghost]

Any news from CEO? I'm at work and haven't had a chance to catch up on it

sonic is gonna be discussed. heavily.

 

[Hydreigonfan01]

Results from CEO 2022

1. Sonix
2. Riddles
3. Toast
4. Dabuz
5. Marss
5. Tweek
7. MVD
7. WaDi
9. Zomba
9. Aaron
9. Jake
9. ZD
13. yonni
13. Peabnut
13. Sean
13. Fatality
17. MuteAce
17. Anathema
17. Luma
17. DDog
17. Zeta
17. Jahzz0
17. Riku
17. Phuzix
25. Vinny G
25. Donquavious
25. Epic_Gabriel
25. Juanpi
25. BobbyWasabi
25. Myran
25. Uncivil Ninja
25. 8BitMan

I feel like we have to add Sonic as a contender for the best in the game alongside , , / , , and . Great results, a large amount of top players, two top 15 players in the world in Sonix and KEN, won 3 majors post-quarantine (VCA 2021, BOBC4 as a co-main and now CEO) from 3 different players, and this is with Wrath doing worse then he was pre-quarantine.

There also seems very little counterplay if Sonic is just willing to play the time out game and run away the whole match, and Spin Dash is pretty much unpunishable and very hard to deal with. A bunch of top players have put him as a top 10 or even top 5 character, and I think I'd have to agree.

 

[The_Bookworm]

I feel like we have to add Sonic as a contender for the best in the game alongside , , / , , and . Great results, a large amount of top players, two top 15 players in the world in Sonix and KEN, won 3 majors post-quarantine (VCA 2021, BOBC4 as a co-main and now CEO) from 3 different players, and this is with Wrath doing worse then he was pre-quarantine.

There also seems very little counterplay if Sonic is just willing to play the time out game and run away the whole match, and Spin Dash is pretty much unpunishable and very hard to deal with. A bunch of top players have put him as a top 10 or even top 5 character, and I think I'd have to agree.

I don't necessarily agree. The top player density for the character hasn't been as high as it used to be, or at the very least in terms of performing very well in major events, especially with KEN co-maining him with Sephiroth nowadays.

Additionally, I wouldn't say that Sonic time-out strategies are "unbeatable". It can be very hard to deal with for certain characters (as we can see with vs Olimar), but against characters who has the speed and the buttons to intercept him, it can be much harder to execute the strategy. As a matter of fact, outside of that horrendous game 1 vs Dabuz (and probably something else I'm forgetting), Sonix played surprisingly aggressive throughout his tournament run, which includes grands vs Riddles' Terry.

That being said, Sonix played amazingly this weekend. After losing to Toast 3-2 in winner's, he went through a 9 set win streak (which includes a runback vs Toast) in order to win the whole event. Part of what made Sonix' Sonic so effective this weekend, was his ability to shift playstyles so well. He conditions you to think that it will be a drawn-out battle, until he starts stampeding you in an instant.

 

[Hydreigonfan01]

Results for WINNER! #12

1. Zackray
2. Eim
3. Shogun
4. Harasen
5. KEN
5. Mazoku
7. Yamanaction
7. Tsubotsubo
9. Twinkle
9. Nietono
9. Gorioka
9. Tarakotori
13. BUCHI SNAKE
13. kept
13. Kamuko no Namaashi Bikyaku Doriru

Was just a Japanese weekly, but the WINNER series are the most stacked weeklies on the planet, and have the top heaviness of American super regionals.

 

[Emblem Lord]

As I said.

Sonic is the REAL problem and he always has been.

This is what happens in a game where runaway is hard to stop and often times you must overextend if you want to stop it.

Ultimate lacks the systems to incentivise engagement over disengagement.

This is the game and it is what it is.

 

[NairWizard]

The problem with Sonic isn't the camping, really, as obnoxious as it may seem. It's just that the counterplay is mostly guesswork.

To deal with spindash as most characters, you have to put out a hitbox when you think Sonic is going to approach and rely on your reward being higher than Sonic's (which isn't hard to achieve unless you get edgeguarded). Very few characters are reacting to Sonic's spindash mixups past midrange.

Roy is often criticized for "fighting ghosts." But that's exactly how you fight Sonic, and it just leads to somewhat uninspiring gameplay.

I'm not sure I'd generalize this problem to Ultimate overall. Other characters who camp leave wide reaction windows as counterplay blueprints. It's just a uniquely Sonic thing.

 

[Emblem Lord]

More than half the cast do not have the tools to effectively do this counter play. They lack the frame data and/or effective hitboxes. Not to mention pure runaway is not what I am talking about anyway. I am talking about disengagement. That is the real meta in platform fighter's and something they all need to balance around. How powerful is it to just get a lead and maintain a safe distance where you can safely react to approaches?

I will even say that Sonic is not the best at this. He is just the best at frustrating people due to his mobility, punishing mistake as well as baiting responses thanks to spindash. But Sonic as a character gives his opponent quite a few chances to hurt him. I think Joker, top tier swordies, ZSS, Fox, CF and yes, Steve as well as Kazuya are very strong in their disengagement. Fox especially due to laser and shine since they give him long range answers and a response to projectiles. Steve and Kazuya are very strong on a lead, but the counterplay is not fully developed. Kazuya is also weak in disadvantage which is a big flaw. So if you whiff punish something from him (like EWGF), you do not need to overextend to maintain an advantage.

At the end of the day though this is just a fun little discussion. I highly doubt a high level of disengagement will become relevant in the meta, beyond maybe one or two players. Most of the smash community DEEPLY stigmatizes it. Non-aggro styles are all lumped together as uninteresting and unacceptable. Aggro styles are labelled as hype, even when it's little more than a player flinging themselves at an opponent with a top tier and abusing their crazy frame data or hitboxes.

 

[F4lcoMain]

The problem with Sonic isn't the camping, really, as obnoxious as it may seem. It's just that the counterplay is mostly guesswork.

To deal with spindash as most characters, you have to put out a hitbox when you think Sonic is going to approach and rely on your reward being higher than Sonic's (which isn't hard to achieve unless you get edgeguarded). Very few characters are reacting to Sonic's spindash mixups past midrange.

Roy is often criticized for "fighting ghosts." But that's exactly how you fight Sonic, and it just leads to somewhat uninspiring gameplay.

I'm not sure I'd generalize this problem to Ultimate overall. Other characters who camp leave wide reaction windows as counterplay blueprints. It's just a uniquely Sonic thing.

Heh, this is why I like Falco's Laser in this matchup. It is a constantly active hitbox that can interrupt Spin Dash. Falco can SH double laser to have 2 active hitboxes to cover jump as well..

The downside is that Laser is a low reward option.

 

[Sucumbio]

For this particular list, characters are ranked based on their peak performances at tournaments in 2022, ranging from January to June of this year.

New Super Smash Bros. Ultimate tier list based on character peak performances at tournaments since January 2022

www.eventhubs.com

 

[Hydreigonfan01]

Top 150-51 players on OrionRank for the mid-year.

OrionRank, Mid-Year 2022; 150-101. 100-51 will be released in roughly 2 hours. 50-1 will be released at noon CST tomorrow. pic.twitter.com/9I54QD5eyH

— Barnard's Loop (@LoopBarnard) June 28, 2022

OrionRank 2022 Mid-Year/Halfway: 100-51. @EazyFreezie created the graphic and has refined the algorithm. 50-1 will be released tomorrow at 12 PM CST! pic.twitter.com/lPX0qYrw6T

— Barnard's Loop (@LoopBarnard) June 28, 2022

The top 50 will be released in about 3 hours from now.

Edit: Also Cloudy did a tier list

Tier list 2022 pic.twitter.com/nwnXjvRAlq

— Cloudy (@Cloudyos_) June 28, 2022

 

[Frihetsanka]

Edit: Also Cloudy did a tier list

Seems like a fairly reasonable tier list to me. I could nitpick but overall the placements seem fairly reasonable. The Ryu placement is a but surprising but understandable given how well Ryu has been doing lately. Mario that low is something I very much disagree with. Corrin in top 30 (if you consider Samus/Dark Samus as one spot) is interesting, personally I'd lean towards top 35 myself. Sephiroth a bit lower than most but not too unreasonable, and Cloudy is an Aegis/Sephiroth main so he knows the character. Rosalina that high is interesting, Sheik that low is questionable, Ness that low seems a bit odd too.

Steve seems to have more or less solidified himself as a top 5 character according to most top players. The trend of Pikachu not being top 3 seems to be continuing. Cloud made it to top 10 which is interesting, a tad higher than I'd put him. I wonder if it will last now that Cloudy is taking a break?

 

[Hydreigonfan01]

Top 50 players

OrionRank 2022 Mid-Year/Halfway: 50-1. @EazyFreezie
created the graphic and has refined the algorithm. So far, things are a bit different from last year - but there's plenty of majors ahead this year to change things. Congrats to the Top 150! pic.twitter.com/EInqPVG0bd

— Barnard's Loop (@LoopBarnard) June 29, 2022

Character representation in the top 50 of OrionRank

 

[Sucumbio]

Top 50 players

OrionRank 2022 Mid-Year/Halfway: 50-1. @EazyFreezie
created the graphic and has refined the algorithm. So far, things are a bit different from last year - but there's plenty of majors ahead this year to change things. Congrats to the Top 150! pic.twitter.com/EInqPVG0bd

— Barnard's Loop (@LoopBarnard) June 29, 2022

No esam and no Pikachu. The numbers have spoken.

 

[Hydreigonfan01]

No esam and no Pikachu. The numbers have spoken.

ESAM couldn't qualify due to lack of attendance.

 

[The_Bookworm]

No esam and no Pikachu. The numbers have spoken.

ESAM couldn't qualify due to lack of attendance.

To elaborate further, he was part of the Honorable Mentions category, alongside a few other players.

OrionRank Ultimate 2022, Mid-Year Update: Honorable Mentions. Players who would be formally ranked, but lack the attendance numbers. pic.twitter.com/X6u2E1L8fF

— Barnard's Loop (@LoopBarnard) June 27, 2022

 

[Linkmain-maybe]

Has Zackray played at all the last few months?

 

[The_Bookworm]

Has Zackray played at all the last few months?

He has played a total of 6 tournaments throughout 2022, according to SmashWiki. One of which is Kagaribi 6, in which he won the whole tournament, but the rest are generally local tournaments. He underperformed 2 of them, and for Ignite 1, he only attended the doubles bracket.

So yeah, very inactive first half of 2022 due to his dedication to Pokemon Unite. We will see if that changes in the second half as he has plans to return back to competition after that very unfortunate circumstance with his teammate.

 

[Rizen]

Top 50 players

OrionRank 2022 Mid-Year/Halfway: 50-1. @EazyFreezie
created the graphic and has refined the algorithm. So far, things are a bit different from last year - but there's plenty of majors ahead this year to change things. Congrats to the Top 150! pic.twitter.com/EInqPVG0bd

— Barnard's Loop (@LoopBarnard) June 29, 2022

Character representation in the top 50 of OrionRank

I'm surprise Cosmos got ranked that low. He's inconsistent but has won tournaments.

 

[Hydreigonfan01]

I'm surprise Cosmos got ranked that low. He's inconsistent but has won tournaments.

It's because he's inconsistent. ESAM was in a similar place on OrionRank Eclipse and he won a major over Leo but was inconsistent.

 

[Hydreigonfan01]

BTW OrionStats update

Final character update for June 2022! This ends Phase 5, and Phase 6 will begin this weekend, meaning character scores will be reset. I will release the National & Regional scores tomorrow. For character scores, things remain stable, though Palutena continues to hold a large lead pic.twitter.com/3K5HhJDBFm

— Barnard's Loop (@LoopBarnard) July 1, 2022

 

[Hydreigonfan01]

These are the OrionStats results if you took regionals and locals out of the question

Final national scores for Jan-Jun 2022, covering only B to S+ tier events. Interesting notes include Olimar being much higher and Wolf/Palu cratering without regional results. pic.twitter.com/8JY08k9K1Z

— Barnard's Loop (@LoopBarnard) July 1, 2022

And here are the OrionStats results if you took majors out

Final regional scores for Jan-Jun 2022, using only D & C-Tier events, meaning notable locals & regionals. Steve craters quite a bit here while Wolf/Palu dominate the field. Peach & Bayonetta also increase quite a bit. pic.twitter.com/RT9voIQVk4

— Barnard's Loop (@LoopBarnard) July 1, 2022

 

[blackghost]

for regionals and locals there is a clear correlation between ease and use and results
5 of the top 6 are all extremely straightforward characters with huge normals and hitboxes.

 

[Hydreigonfan01]

Results for Seibugeki 11

1. ProtoBanham
2. Sigma
3. Akakikusu
4. Yamanaction
5. YOC
5. Rido
7. KEN
7. Futari no Kiwami Ah~!
9. Nemo
9. takera
9. Kome
9. Toriguri
13. Eim
13. Tet.
13. T
13. Noi
17. Rinkururu
17. chicken
17. Gomamochi
17. LISUTO
17. Karaage
17. Choco
17. Songn
17. Shogun

 

[The_Bookworm]

GOML 2022 Top 8

Winner's
Riddles vs Syrup
Onin vs Kola


Loser's
Goblin vs Cosmos
Big D vs Aaron


For context, Goblin used pools in order to practice his Steve. However ever since pools, it has not come out and it is purely the Roy-show as usual.

 

[NairWizard]

Maister finally got a big win over Mkleo at Colossel! 3-2 on the Corrin.

But then Leo just went Pyra/Mythra the rest of the tournament, and 6-0ed Maister in grands. I have a feeling that the Corrin might disappear pretty soon with the way Leo's Pyra/Mythra is playing (and he lost the crew battle to Peli's Sonic with Corrin too).

If you didn't watch it, this was definitely the best Pyra/Mythra play I've ever seen. 3-stocked Maister's Game and Watch (which was on fire this tournament) pretty effortlessly with incredible ledgetrapping.

Definitely felt better than Leo or sparg0's SWT Aegis.

And it's pretty much because of slingshot.

 

[The_Bookworm]

I just came back from an occasion, and I saw Steve vs Ice Climbers in grand finals of GOML 2022?

We truly live in strange times, but both Onin and Big D we're killing it out there.

Wonder you guys think of the major tournament landscape now that MkLeo and Sparg0 are not nearly as active in the big major tournament of the week, as they used to be.

 

[SapphSabre777]

So from what I'm gathering from big players atm:

Kola is totally disheartened about the game, thanks to FPS 2.

Riddles is in the same camp of being disheartened.

Players like Aaron are looking at Steve and saying that this is not OK.

Players like ESAM are trying to de-escalate the issue.

Most importantly:

Players like BassMage and MuteAce, and likely many others, are picking up Steve.

Players like Leon are picking up characters like Hero to counter Steve.

If a character is so centralizing and concerning that players are either picking up that character, or intentionally picking up a counter-pick, I think it is safe to say that character IS the meta, and thus number 1.

I don't want to say Steve will kill Ultimate; however, to deny the possibility that Steve's meta and potential will supercede reasonable counterplay is foolish, and there are quite a few significant parallels with him as he stands in this trend and S4 Bayo.

 

[superjm]

My read is that many Ultimate players are being faced with a matchup where they can't just power through with cursory matchup knowledge and strong fundamental play and are having trouble mentally dealing with it. By all accounts the Steve players have been putting in the work grinding to bring the character up to this level even against the problem matchups, and now their opposition needs to respond in kind, or else.

 

[The_Bookworm]

An interesting point that ESAM brings up is another reason why it is hard to be consistent in Smash Ultimate.

Not only you have 80+ character matchups to worry about in the most balanced Smash game to date, but then there are certain characters were the matchups changes considerably depending on who is playing them. Characters like Steve, Snake, Sonic, Young Link, and Samus all come to mind. Depending on which top level player of these characters you run into, you will be fighting essentially completely different characters.

On top of all of that, you then have certain characters were simply playing your character in your typical flowchart way is simply asking yourself to lose. You have to play their game in order to obtain the best success.

All of these factors combined makes being consistent in Ultimate such a hard ordeal, which is why the players who do get consistently very high results in spite of that becomes even more exceptionally impressive.

 

[BitBitio]

After watching MkLeo’s triumvirate of swordfighters absolutely farm Europe (he lost one set in a close 3-2 throughout the entirety of his time in Europe to Maister whilst playing Corrin, and then immediately 6-0ing him with Aegis in Grands), I’m so excited to see him come back to play at Double Down. We’re so lucky to have such a humble and polite king of the game- he never tilts, never complains, and is always happy for others when they succeed. Mentality is everything in this game and you can’t find someone with a better one than MkLeo.

 

[blackghost]

Wait we are supposed to be upset at the state of ultimate when ice climbers is on a grand finals of a major?
Riddles has a history of being up and down emotionally. I think we all ember how he has said he was gonna drop Kazuya and Terry respectively.

 

[NairWizard]

I'm not yet worried about Steve, mostly because of:

Won #COLOSSEL from losers with Aegis! @T1 #T1win
Yeah yeah my Aegis are back. Understood what i was doing wrong before.
With this my EU arc is completed.
Still sad didn’t get to play Gluto but it will eventually happen again.
But i leave satisfied.

— LG | MkLeo (@Mkleosb) July 3, 2022

He's not wrong, it definitely looked like the best Aegis I've ever seen. This level of play is what I predicted would happen if sparg0 and Leo kept pushing Aegis--but to my surprise, Aegis counterplay developed and both took their foot off the gas.

Slingshot revitalized Aegis at the top level; it gives Mythra free swordie spacing aerial options that are completely safe on shield and buys Pyra safety nets to swap to Mythra on demand in neutral.
In fact, slingshot gives all sword characters some incredibly oppressive neutral tools. It's perfect Steve counterplay because it forces the Steve to guess. Others will just have to adopt it.

Leo, Sparg0, Proto, etc not being at all of these tournaments where Steve is dominating is a huge factor in Steve's success. When the disjoint zoners are here, and they're using the slingshot, we'll see what Steve has up his blocky sleeve. I'm guessing it's gonna be rough.

I think that Acola, Onin, Jake, Yonni etc could definitely upset Leo or Sparg0 and take down Proto, but that's it, it's just gonna be another one-time upset story like any other.

Look at the gameplay. The sword meta is here to stay.

 

[superjm]

Kind of curious what MKLeo means by "understood what I was doing wrong before". Only thing that comes to mind is perhaps prioritizing staying center stage and controlling ledge rather than going for flashy edge guards since that seems to be a universal problem Aegis mains have had to this point, but I wouldn't know off-hand if that applied to Leo.

 

[blackghost]

Glutto getting beat by a bayo in top 8 was shocking. That mu is heavily in his favor.

I've gotta agree with ESAM smash players aren't used to actually preparing for odd matchups and characters. They want to blunt force through it.

Also funny watching icies deal crazy damage on Terry and Kazuya. Riddles actually should've played ricter