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Official Competitive Character Impressions 2.0

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  • Total voters
    577

Cheryl~

Smash Journeyman
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Jun 27, 2018
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Considering Yonni's place was supposed to be Gackt (which would've made Gackt vs Tweek), I think its fair for them to run back. Yonni's in winners side anyways, so even if he loses again it's not the end of the world.

I hope Light can pick it up today, yesterday was certainly an off day for him and it shows how on top you have to be with Fox to win.
 

blackghost

Smash Champion
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Jul 9, 2015
Messages
2,195
watching so far steve is a much more versitle character than many people want ot give him credit.

also there appears imo to be a sizable gap between yonni and acola.

ferps just needs more matches vs elite players long-term I think he'll be fine.
 

SKX31

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e-Caribana (First Smash major / category 4 in 🇨🇭 , held at one of Switzerland's most notable concerts) just wrapped up. 32-man invitational - Maister and Atelier were also invited but they couldn't attend:

1st: MKLeo :ultcorrinf: :ultbyleth:
2nd: QuiK :ultsamus: (Sidenote: Was extremely close to 3-1ing Leo in WB Finals, Leo was at last stock 186 % in Game 4)
3rd: Sisqui :ultdarksamus:
4th: Tilde :ultfalco:
5th: Chag :ultpalutena:
5th: Peli :ultsonic:
7th: Sintro :ultrob:
7th: Mr R :ultchrom: :ultsheik:

Gluto was amongst those who got eliminated in the second round (aka finished 17th) - lost 2-3 to Peli in WB then 2-3 to Sisqui in LB.

Think this is the first EU major in a while that didn't feature any French players in the Top 8? Oryon came closest at 9th.
 

superjm

Smash Cadet
Joined
Feb 23, 2022
Messages
34
Gluto was amongst those who got eliminated in the second round (aka finished 17th) - lost 2-3 to Peli in WB then 2-3 to Sisqui in LB.
Whoa, this is kind of a big deal. Gluto has spent the post-pandemic period utterly dominating sisqui is every set they've played, so sisqui overcoming his bracket demon is definitely worth noting.

EDIT - Confused the two Samuses lol. quiK held his own against MKLeo, so overall a really nice showing for the Samuses.
 
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The_Bookworm

Smash Master
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Jan 10, 2018
Messages
3,029
Both Sparg0:ultcloud: and Tweek:ultsephiroth: in the loser's bracket, losing to Riddles:ultkazuya: and yonni:ultsteve: 3-1 in both sets.

The Sparg0 vs Riddles one wasn't too surprising to me. Not sure when was the last time Sparg0 fought a good Kazuya.
The Tweek vs yonni one surprised me the most, as Tweek beat him rather convincingly yesterday.
 

NairWizard

Somewhere
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Oct 28, 2014
Messages
1,645
Samus is top tier. Resultswise (OrionStats), theorywise, and top-level gameplay-wise, Samus is absolutely a lock for being top 10 right now on all axes. Very few characters have the trifecta of top-level competition, theory, and results across all levels. Samus is in the limited company of Roy, Aegis, ROB, and Palutena/Wolf in this regard.

Also the slingshot ledgetrapping from Leo should be the talking point right now. That looked exactly as meta-defining as GIMR hypothesized.
 
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superjm

Smash Cadet
Joined
Feb 23, 2022
Messages
34
Samus is top tier. Resultswise (OrionStats), theorywise, and top-level gameplay-wise, Samus is absolutely a lock for being top 10 right now on all axes. Very few characters have the trifecta of top-level competition, theory, and results across all levels. Samus is in the limited company of Roy, Aegis, ROB, and Palutena/Wolf in this regard.

Also the slingshot ledgetrapping from Leo should be the talking point right now. That looked exactly as meta-defining as GIMR hypothesized.
I only hesitate to agree because Samus really does have some truly horrendous matchups that can be a hard stop to her in a given bracket. Like, with the possible exception of Roy I don't think any other top tier has a matchup truly as awful as Samus-Olimar. Min-min, the spacies, Palutena (though that didn't seem to stop quiK and sisqui today) also present huge issues.

With that said, outside of the ever-present Olimar problem it feels like counterplay to Samus's worst matchups is developing courtesy of our European friends. And her solid matchup spread against other top/high characters cannot be ignored either.
 

toonito

Smash Ace
Joined
Jul 10, 2017
Messages
684
Samus is top tier. Resultswise (OrionStats), theorywise, and top-level gameplay-wise, Samus is absolutely a lock for being top 10 right now on all axes. Very few characters have the trifecta of top-level competition, theory, and results across all levels. Samus is in the limited company of Roy, Aegis, ROB, and Palutena/Wolf in this regard.

Also the slingshot ledgetrapping from Leo should be the talking point right now. That looked exactly as meta-defining as GIMR hypothesized.
thats pretty crazy

this might be the best version of Samus in Smash history

and it came outta nowhere lol
 

superjm

Smash Cadet
Joined
Feb 23, 2022
Messages
34
thats pretty crazy

this might be the best version of Samus in Smash history

and it came outta nowhere lol
I like to joke that lifelong Samus mains were telling everyone since the game came out that she was top tier but nobody believed them.

Obviously that's just being silly, but it's certainly true that by and large the Samus player-base realized very, very quickly that this version of the character was a completely different beast than the total mess she was in Smash 4. So while we certainly couldn't have predicted how high the ceiling could actually be with this character, I wouldn't say it came outta nowhere.
 

Hydreigonfan01

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Aug 24, 2018
Messages
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Both Sparg0:ultcloud: and Tweek:ultsephiroth: in the loser's bracket, losing to Riddles:ultkazuya: and yonni:ultsteve: 3-1 in both sets.

The Sparg0 vs Riddles one wasn't too surprising to me. Not sure when was the last time Sparg0 fought a good Kazuya.
The Tweek vs yonni one surprised me the most, as Tweek beat him rather convincingly yesterday.
Sparg0 beat Riddles's Kazuya at Summit 3. I know they fought at Collision too, but I don't know if Riddles went Terry or Kazuya there.
 
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The_Bookworm

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Jan 10, 2018
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3,029
Here is the top 8:

Winner's
Riddles:ult_terry::ultkazuya: vs yonni:ultsteve:
Asimo:ultryu: vs acola:ultsteve:

Loser's
Light:ultfox: vs Cosmos:ultmythra:
Kola:ultroy::ultcloud: vs Sparg0:ultcloud:


Well this top 8 is.... bizarre. The winner's side is literally FGC vs Steve, and the loser's side contains players you expect to be in the winner's side.


Sparg0 beat Riddles's Kazuya at Summit 3. I know they fought at Collision too, but I don't know if Riddles went Terry or Kazuya there.
Riddles played Terry when they fought at Collision 2022. He did go Kazuya back at Summit 3, but that was 10 months ago.
 

Rran

Smash Apprentice
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Nov 3, 2014
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136
I can't believe Kola homie stocked in game 5 against Chase... what a bro 🤜

edit: and now Light w/ the homie stock against Kola 🤛

Love these guys <3
 
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BitBitio

Smash Journeyman
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Jul 8, 2019
Messages
204
Kola got the reverse 3-0 on Sparg0 to eliminate him at 7th after he was knocked into Losers by Riddles. And then he just got the reverse 3-0 on Asimo who was knocked down by acola. Mans is cookin rn
 

Minordeth

Smash Ace
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Oct 14, 2014
Messages
917
I’m bummed Asimo is out, but it was necessary to gift us with the Kola interview and keep the narrative strong.

In order to reach the summit, Kola must overcome FP2.


low key Acola is a monster and that he’s really only been consistently beaten by the newly powered up Super Smash God Super Smasher Yoshidora is kinda wild.
 

superjm

Smash Cadet
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Feb 23, 2022
Messages
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I think I have an idea of why Steve (and other characters with similar traits to an extent like Joker) are so hard to pin down as far as how good or bad they are in matchups. It's a matter of trying to reconcile the strength of a character whose attributes change significantly during a match. Steve is the primary subject in this way of looking at things because "game state" varies all over the place even in a given match. A Steve with wooden tools and zero resources is a sitting duck who will struggle to win neutral and get out of disadvantage. A Steve with diamond tools and a full stock of iron and resources is arguably the best character in the game. And there's a whole spectrum of game states inbetween those two extremes that affect the effectiveness of Steve's total kit.

I don't blame anyone, players especially, for having no idea how to mentally grasp this character and what his full potential really is when you have to take into account how often a Steve is able to get the tools and resources he needs to truly shine. It's a very complex exercise of trying to assess resource management far beyond what you typically see in fighting games, and I imagine it's gonna take a while for anyone to understand the full implications. Just how good is Steve with diamond? How difficult is it to stop him from getting diamond? How many resources will Steve need to execute his game plan against you and can that be exploited in some way? Those are tough questions.

And I think there's similar things to be said about other characters. I mentioned Joker before, who's a very solid and strong character in his base state but turns into another arguable best character in the game once Arsene comes up. Arsene is cited commonly as a big reason why Joker is possibly top 1, but there's also skepticism in part because managing Arsene usage can be hard and the nature of the boost can make it very feast-or-famine in practice. What does this all add up to? It's hard to say. Outside of Joker we also have other "powerup" characters that require different assessments based on what state they're in. Sephiroth with his wing, Cloud with Limit, Terry with Go!!, Aegis literally being two separate characters you can switch between, Lucario's aura, even Little Mac's K.O. punch. Hero's everything. Probably others I'm forgetting.

Steve is definitely the big one here, especially considering his extreme success as of late (and subsequent hate by pockets of the community lol). We talk about Aegis being two characters but from a certain point of view, you can argue Steve is like six characters or something.
 

SapphSabre777

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I called Steve being the character Pyra/Mythra was being labelled as. Now with Acola showing off in the USA...I will now make the bold statement that the best character in the game is Steve. If not now, then in the extremely near future. No other character imo has the amount of game-bending tools, in both quality and quantity, like Steve does.
 

superjm

Smash Cadet
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Feb 23, 2022
Messages
34
Well if there was any lingering sentiments that acola's success was a Japan-only phenomenon those have been put completely to rest.

You can say that he dodged Sparg0, but you can only fight who's in front of you after all. And making relatively short work of Marss, Asimo, Riddles, and Light is absolutely not a bracket worth splitting hairs over. Even comparing him to his character contemporary in this event, yonni, shows just how much better he was dealing with the same opposition, and that's not to take anything from yonni who achieved some very impressive wins this weekend himself.

I simply can't wait for him to take on Sparg0 and MKLeo in a real match, it should be some fun stuff.
 

The_Bookworm

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Messages
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The Gimvitational

1st: acola:ultsteve:
2nd: Light:ultfox:
3rd: Riddles:ult_terry::ultkazuya:
4th: Kola:ultroy::ultcloud:

5th: yonni:ultsteve:
5th: Asimo:ultryu:

7th: Cosmos:ultmythra:
7th: Sparg0:ultcloud:

9th: Marss:ultjoker:
9th: Larry Lurr:ultfalco:
9th: Tweek:ultsephiroth:
9th: Ferps:ultkazuya:

13th: Gackt:ultness:
13th: Jin:ultmythra:
13th: Chase:ultpalutena:
13th: loaf :ultwario:


Light and Kola had a godlike loser's run today. This is especially true for Light, who was underperforming significantly yesterday.

Also, I can't believe we live in a era where we have a tournament where Tweek placed 9th and Sparg0 placed 7th.

Btw, after re-watching the matches in the tournament, I haven't seen top players get hit by so many Steve Anvils as in this tournament. I feel like that is an area fighting vs Steve that is very lacking in that regard.
 

Gearkeeper-8a

Smash Apprentice
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Feb 12, 2018
Messages
196
Hold off your horses up people, remember what makes a top player in this game top player is being consistent during long periods of time, acola has strong results but like sparg0, tweek kola, marss, dabuz, light, glutonny, cosmos, zackray, and protobaham, the more tournaments you enter, the more people will start adapting to you and your character, the same thing will happend to acola and Steven.

Regardless this was a great introduction for acola and asimo.

But this talk about being top 5 is a bit premature.

I still think mkleo is still a ladder up from other top players incluying sparg0.
 

blackghost

Smash Champion
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Messages
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Hold off your horses up people, remember what makes a top player in this game top player is being consistent during long periods of time, acola has strong results but like sparg0, tweek kola, marss, dabuz, light, glutonny, cosmos, zackray, and protobaham, the more tournaments you enter, the more people will start adapting to you and your character, the same thing will happend to acola and Steven.

Regardless this was a great introduction for acola and asimo.

But this talk about being top 5 is a bit premature.

I still think mkleo is still a ladder up from other top players incluying sparg0.
while true i don't really think this event as a whole really pushed acola too hard. he had a few indidual games that were close but he seemed like he had plenty of other setups he could go into. he was messing people up with dair alone so much.

that was the best showing for sepiroth in ages. but the character's flaws are very visible now the bar and effort and execution it takes to win means this character isnt elite.

that Samus take was scorching hot. hope to see something in these higher-tier events to back that up.

last if you dont know how to fight these fgc characters long term you are gonna get blown up. Their tier placement isnt relevant you better have aplan going in or a hard counterpick.
 

Sucumbio

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Hardly. Stronger than the first on average, but no fighter in this game is broken. Not so far as we can tell at least.
I'm not saying they're Brawl MK broken. But when the commentary is "it doesn't matter what percentage you are this match is still even" (Steve vs Kazuya) the sentiment is there. FP2 characters are insane strong with carefully designed weaknesses ... Against each other. And maybe Roy/ROB/Palutena/Fox/etc. But I don't see much in the way of total character flaws that place any of them in lower than high tier.

Edit except Sora I realize. I know literally nothing about the character.

Edit edit..

Seph tweek Ken name
Kazuya riddles axiomxl tea?
Aegis Cosmos name name
Steve Acola name name
Min Min ?
Sora ?

I don't follow everyone name but I have watched plenty of vods to know many players to rep each at least 3 times and demonstrating tournament wins even or especially clutch victories. This to me means high tier. But if min min or Sora are not high tier and instead are mid tier I dunno.

So 4 outta 6 are busted haha. It's nothing so bedevilish as bantalk or whatever more so memeworthy. This was a great tournament to watch I hope they do one again.
 
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Minordeth

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917
So, should Steve be banned?

As the narrative goes, it seemed like Acola had an answer to any developing counter play, and the inability to truly punish him is due to Steve being broken. I absolutely believe that Light saw "the patterns" that Acola was doing - as I'm sure most of the top players in that venue did as well. In addition, Light is absolutely a better player than Acola.

And then Light lost 3-1.

The issue here is two-fold:

1. Outside of Japan, there isn't a Steve on the level of Acola - who has the potential to be a top 10 player.

2. Steve is a set-play heavy character. Acola has over a year's worth of set-play developed against top-level counter play. He's had to resort to Kazuya to gain an edge against Yoshidora - who still double eliminated him at Sumabato SP 26.

Outside of Japan, the developing counterplay to Acola is certainly "new." Light had the right ideas. However, Acola has been active for almost two years. He is the highest ranked online JP player. Despite Light's level of skill and adaptation, there was a high chance that all Acola had to do was implement something he already developed a year ago.

Additionally, despite his pressure and avoidance of defensive anvil, Light also grabbed Acola only four times across four games in Grand Finals. Meanwhile, he lost key stocks to footstool OOS > anvil or took hilarious damage by pressing buttons on Acola's shield.
 

2006ToyotaTacoma

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I'm glad to see Ferps break out of Brazil and square up with some of the best players that NA and Japan have to offer. I really hope he starts making more appearances in the larger, more competitive areas in the near future, I see him going far.

I really just want to see a profound South American presence in Smash.
 

Rizen

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Steve won one tournament. He's definitely a top tier but Aegis has more evidence to be banned- not that I'm saying that. Steve's getting good results, which I expect to continue, but so are other characters and no one's saying ban them.
 

Gearkeeper-8a

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196
To be honest i wonder what will happend if akakikusu comes to the US, and i want yoshidora to come too because people didnt put respect on his ranking.
 

Arthur97

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What is it with people being ban happy? Though, people being too liberal with the term broken may not help. Good does not equal broken. Steve doesn't break the meta. This game is remarkably well balanced, and every scare to date has been unfounded.

That said, the complexity there I think kinda makes Steve the inverse of the Aegis sisters when it comes to counter play. The sisters are generally simpler to understand both for player and opponent making adaptation easier as well. Steve is complicated and that could give the play significantly more of an advantage knowing what they can do and allowing for better adaptation than those trying to counter them.
 

NairWizard

Somewhere
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In addition, Light is absolutely a better player than Acola.
Disagree. It's not just block shenanigans--Acola's spacing and fundamentals are block-solid. It's hard to call who's the better player, but Acola is really, really, really good.

The first time I saw him play I was in awe of the disjoint spacing--he plays Steve like a sword character! A sword character who literally builds the stage he plays on, yes, but playing a disjoint character like a disjoint character takes a lot of fundamentals and patience. The kind of fundamentals and patience that makes someone a top 5 player.
 

blackghost

Smash Champion
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Jul 9, 2015
Messages
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I'm not saying they're Brawl MK broken. But when the commentary is "it doesn't matter what percentage you are this match is still even" (Steve vs Kazuya) the sentiment is there.
The sentiment among whom? Twitch chat? Because in twitch chat and reddit and smash Twitter whatever character just win is broken and whoever lost is trash or overrated.

Twitch chat when light fought ferps: lol Kazuya sucks.
Twitch chat when Riddles fought someone with Kazuya: omg KAZUYA IS SO BROKEN.

Next it's not new for specific situations to not care about percent to determin how close a game is. This was a thing with dk and bowser in 4 and its a thing with characters in this game. In other fighting games life leads don't necessary matter on their face either. The alternative is having another brawl watch experience and yall don't want that.

So, should Steve be banned?

As the narrative goes, it seemed like Acola had an answer to any developing counter play, and the inability to truly punish him is due to Steve being broken. I absolutely believe that Light saw "the patterns" that Acola was doing - as I'm sure most of the top players in that venue did as well. In addition, Light is absolutely a better player than Acola.

And then Light lost 3-1.

The issue here is two-fold:

1. Outside of Japan, there isn't a Steve on the level of Acola - who has the potential to be a top 10 player.

2. Steve is a set-play heavy character. Acola has over a year's worth of set-play developed against top-level counter play. He's had to resort to Kazuya to gain an edge against Yoshidora - who still double eliminated him at Sumabato SP 26.

Outside of Japan, the developing counterplay to Acola is certainly "new." Light had the right ideas. However, Acola has been active for almost two years. He is the highest ranked online JP player. Despite Light's level of skill and adaptation, there was a high chance that all Acola had to do was implement something he already developed a year ago.

Additionally, despite his pressure and avoidance of defensive anvil, Light also grabbed Acola only four times across four games in Grand Finals. Meanwhile, he lost key stocks to footstool OOS > anvil or took hilarious damage by pressing buttons on Acola's shield.
The elite Steve's aren't using set play. That's first and foremost. Acola is definitely a top 10 player. You don't have the weekend he just had and not be top ten.

With what I saw I'd that north America is behind on the creative side of the character. The best Steve in America is yonni I guess and he's nowhere near acola. It's hard to counterplay stuff you've never seen before and acola is doing stuff north American Steve's have never done. Creative toolkit characters in every game I've played Japan always pushes hard. From Jacko in guilty gear to rocket racoon in umvc3.
We've been told that next level punishes is footstool punishes. And acola had them on point.
Lastly Whitaker you so sure Light is better than acola? Really would like an answer to that. I don't get the Steve hate I see the character is way more fun imo than palutena and some of the other smash ultimate high tiers.
 
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Green Spiny

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Oct 4, 2014
Messages
34
Any talk of a ban is premature, if not straight up reactionary. But what's annoying with Steve imo, is not his tricks like Cart, Anvil, or even (in a vacuum) Block. Those things are what make him interesting.

Steve's UTilt is -3 to -1 on shield based on tool, and active frames 6-9 of 16 total, with a small disjoint, hitting on both sides. If that wasn't godly in every aspect, it's trickier to deal with because he can move freely during it. The balancing factor is supposed to be Steve's speed.

But at this point, watching him get 61% by laddering UTilts feels like a right more than anything else. Players may evolve counterplay to Steve's tricks, but will fishing for a tilt chain ever fail with those numbers? We'll have to wait and see.

Some other characters also chain the same moves together for big damage, like Wario UAirs. They're already the least hype type of combo, but they at least require jump-ins and are dependent on platform positioning. Steve takes it to the next level of safety and working anywhere.
 

blackghost

Smash Champion
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Any talk of a ban is premature, if not straight up reactionary. But what's annoying with Steve imo, is not his tricks like Cart, Anvil, or even (in a vacuum) Block. Those things are what make him interesting.

Steve's UTilt is -3 to -1 on shield based on tool, and active frames 6-9 of 16 total, with a small disjoint, hitting on both sides. If that wasn't godly in every aspect, it's trickier to deal with because he can move freely during it. The balancing factor is supposed to be Steve's speed.

But at this point, watching him get 61% by laddering UTilts feels like a right more than anything else. Players may evolve counterplay to Steve's tricks, but will fishing for a tilt chain ever fail with those numbers? We'll have to wait and see.

Some other characters also chain the same moves together for big damage, like Wario UAirs. They're already the least hype type of combo, but they at least require jump-ins and are dependent on platform positioning. Steve takes it to the next level of safety and working anywhere.
I think there are two areas to be fairly critical of Steve you are right with frame data. The second is weight. I've may be a touch too heavy but not much.
Any talk of a ban is premature, if not straight up reactionary.
You are being nice. I'm not.
It's pitiful. Against the spirit of competitive play. Agenda driven. And a tactic to insult people excelling with Steve and Kazuya.

This conversation needs to be put down. hard.
 
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PK Gaming

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Aug 25, 2012
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I'm not saying they're Brawl MK broken. But when the commentary is "it doesn't matter what percentage you are this match is still even" (Steve vs Kazuya) the sentiment is there. FP2 characters are insane strong with carefully designed weaknesses ... Against each other. And maybe Roy/ROB/Palutena/Fox/etc. But I don't see much in the way of total character flaws that place any of them in lower than high tier.

Edit except Sora I realize. I know literally nothing about the character.

Edit edit..

Seph tweek Ken name
Kazuya riddles axiomxl tea?
Aegis Cosmos name name
Steve Acola name name
Min Min ?
Sora ?

I don't follow everyone name but I have watched plenty of vods to know many players to rep each at least 3 times and demonstrating tournament wins even or especially clutch victories. This to me means high tier. But if min min or Sora are not high tier and instead are mid tier I dunno.

So 4 outta 6 are busted haha. It's nothing so bedevilish as bantalk or whatever more so memeworthy. This was a great tournament to watch I hope they do one again.
I actually think the FP2 characters are mostly fine. It's Steve and Kazuya who are the big outliers. Kazuya's just not properly balanced from the ground up straight up, whereas Steve just needs a few changes to be in line with the rest of the roster (ie making sure he doesn't get 0~80% conversions so easily)

Steve won one tournament. He's definitely a top tier but Aegis has more evidence to be banned- not that I'm saying that. Steve's getting good results, which I expect to continue, but so are other characters and no one's saying ban them.
Absolutely disagree imo. Aegis has plateaued rather significantly as a fighter. They're still terrific and incredible, but they're not dominating tournaments anymore.
 
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