Welcome to Smashboards, the world's largest Super Smash Brothers community! Over 250,000 Smash Bros. fans from around the world have come to discuss these great games in over 19 million posts!
You are currently viewing our boards as a visitor. Click here to sign up right now and start on your path in the Smash community!
I know there's a couple of Kazuya players in non NA regions, obviously there's Tea and Acola's Kazuya secondaries but also Ferps and Tarik have been doing well with the character as of recent.
To add on what
Hydreigonfan01
said:
all thats happening is the average and above-average kazuya players are getting more consistent on damage and conversions. Kazuya meta hasnt really changed but players are just getting better at what kaz does.
That's a interesting way of putting it. I love Puff in Melee for much of the same reason.
Thoughts on Steve after momocon pic.twitter.com/JyMs3QkWUh
— SS | DDee! (@ddee_ssbu) May 31, 2022
with Waft.
Here's BassMage's MU chart
post summit matchup chart, also have WAY more followers so I have to make one everytime more people know I exist
— BassMage (@BassMage) March 14, 2022
changed a good amount as well, puff has more even matchups then I thought lmao pic.twitter.com/q69CKkxc8h
Character update for the end of May; Steve jumped up a bit to 6th, Palutena charges ahead into first, and Sonic manages to bump Joker out of the top 10! Interesting way to end the month. pic.twitter.com/cT7tLHlk41
— Barnard's Loop (@LoopBarnard) June 1, 2022
, ,, , and .
BTW OrionStats update
Palutena is now one of the few characters to get #1 on OrionStats alongsideCharacter update for the end of May; Steve jumped up a bit to 6th, Palutena charges ahead into first, and Sonic manages to bump Joker out of the top 10! Interesting way to end the month. pic.twitter.com/cT7tLHlk41
— Barnard's Loop (@LoopBarnard) June 1, 2022
also reached #1 on Orionstats (IIRC back in 2019); is the outlier since he was #1 for a brief time in March 2021; anyone else IMO doesnt convince me as much
If we're to believe this, Jigglypuff is actually quite solid. I do believe her to be a lower High Tier myself actually. The last patch of buffs did her extremely well.
Not aegis? Imagine perfect execution between say Kazuya and Aegis lol or Anyone and Aegis?..
tbh i'd be ok if Ultimate's best character was within one of these:
crouch dash cancel platform drops are some of my favorite ways to convert combos pic.twitter.com/pjInCuDbXI
— Hushpuppy (@SilverHushpuppy) May 29, 2022
forgot about her lol
, hot take: his shadow flare isn't a very useful move for him. Allow me to explain. It's not that SF is a bad move; the issue is it has the exact same space coverage as his F/Bair and Ftilt. If he didn't have a huge katana it could be a great zoning tool but he does and his sword offers guaranteed damage plus stage control on hit where SF gives potential followups. Often times Seph doesn't get to combo off it because the opponent can run away and shield. Yes this puts them in a bad position but so does simply hitting them with Fair. Seph's advantage state is so strong I'd argue it's better to hit the opponent offstage than with shadow flare. SF isn't faster than his sword either; it's actually slower. 
Isn't the point of Shadow Flare to put pressure on the opponent to the point that most characters have no answers other than to stop what they're doing to run and shield? That's a very different purpose forces most players to give up stage control or the neutral with the risk of letting Sephiroth use his down smash for strong shield damage or having to leave yourself open by air dodging. If Sephiroth has the wing up, running away's also less effective due to his mobility boosts. I don't think it's entirely fair to judge a move on a specific purpose when it's clearly designed differently with the character already having another move good for said purpose as you said. It's like say, criticizing Jolteon for not being an effective sweeper in competitive singles Pokemon when it's actual strengths lie elsewhereOn the topic of
move, frame
Ftilt, 14
Fair, 13
Bair, 15
SF, 16
It just doesn't give him any additional coverage. :/
Tweek was using the tech with Sephiroth.
More than half of Leo's new playstyle in neutral is slingshotting.
They were taking it seriously. Pre-tournament, Leo said that he considers Corrin a co-main alongside Byleth now. Post-tournament, Leo said that slingshot neutral with Byleth is complicated and it's much easier to do with Corrin, so he wants to wait to bring out Byleth until he's more comfortable slingshotting with that character.
and have been by far the most historically statically strong characters since the post-quarantine era, with not only strong tournament representation, but some very notable top player presence as well. The latter thing was a glaring issue with R.O.B. results for a long time, but now we have players like Zomba and BigBoss placing highly in national tournaments., , and , the former of which is currently ahead in the #1 position in the TTS, but unlike the above-mentioned two, no one is really arguing that these three are best character contenders. You could argue top 5 contenders (in which I think Palu potentially is), but not #1. and . These two characters, while they definitely have a good amount of reps, definitely is not quite as popular as other top characters, as Fox is #13 in the TTS and Wario is #16 (w/ PkMn Trainer) in the TTS. However, the absolute domination that Light and Glutonny has demonstrated the past several months is immaculate. It is no secret that Fox and Wario has been already proven to be very great characters historically throughout Ultimate's life, but both characters has been pushed further than ever before (post-nerf in the case for Wario).. The character hasn't dominated major events the way people projected them to much earlier this year, with other characters showing stronger dominance. At the same time, the character hasn't topped the result charts statically the same way characters like R.O.B., Roy, and Palutena has. What the Aegis brings to the table here, is still being among the upper echelon of both categories. is still a very strong character in competitive. While his high level representation has gone down since 2019, we will have good top level representation, namely from Zackray. There is of course other good Joker players, but he currently leads the charge. The character is also very popular in mid-level play, in a similar vein to the above-mentioned Aegis. #11 in the TTS is nothing to scoff at. Overall good summary, but why aren't you mentionning Peach dominance pre nerf in your last paragraph? If I recall, she was considered the undisputed top 1, and Joker shortly after due to Mkleo's performance. We had players like Leffen who went on a croisade because he believed she was too strong at the time. Anyway, this was just a little nitpick. I don't think there will ever be a clear #1 such is the nature of this game and this is how it should be. I think what your post proved truly is that players' performance matter more than anything else.I do want to bring up some discussion with the thread here since there isn't going to be anything particularly notable for a while now.
We are now currently at the point in the meta where it is now pretty up for debate on who exactly is the best character in the game. Not "who is among the best characters in the game". Who is the best character in the game.
If we were talking about late 2021 and January 2022, we would easily say Aegis, but it seems that the era of fearmongering Aegis domination has ceased ever since. Ever since then, there has been debate on who exactly is #1 in the game.
There are many different ways to look at this:
We have characters that has been statistically strong for a long time.
Do note that there are also other statistically strong characters as well, such as
This brings up another way to look at: the strong point characters. The main two I want to talk about is
At one point, MkLeo and Glutonny even agreed that Wario is in a better spot in the meta than Aegis even is. Not sure if that opinion has changed since, but that is fairly notable.
That being said, these two characters being very strong in the current meta is not an unpopular opinion. Them being potentially character in the game worthy is a very unpopular opinion, however, especially in Fox's case.
Now we turn to our third way to look at it: those with a mix of both. Now we look at
While Leo and Sparg0 mostly dropped the character, the character still receives very good high level representation from players like Cosmos and Shuton, while still being a very popular character in tournaments (especially in mid-level play).
And we can look beyond what they have been doing in tournaments to see that they fundamentally have the tools needed to succeed in any level. That is what makes them a popular candidate for #1 in the game, especially back during the character's glory days. That being said, the character definitely felt a bit of a drop off in terms of presence, thus the position of #1 in the game have once again became muddled.
Our fourth and final way to look at it is characters that we know that may be #1, but hasn't shown that right now.
However, Joker's case is quite unfortunate. The characters major drop-off in the results came with MkLeo, for the most part, dropping the character after Smash Con: Fall Fest. This is not because the character has gotten much weaker in Leo's eyes (he believes Joker to be very strong too), but he simply doesn't find enjoyment with the character anymore.
Back when MkLeo dominated most of 2019 with Joker, there was no other character in the game's history that as undisputedly #1 as Joker.
At the same time, it is hard to argue that the character has definitely seen better days, especially in lieu of characters that has far exceeded him in tournament presence ever since.
As you can see overall, there are numerous different factors that determine who will claim the coveted #1 title in the game. A lot of it ends up resulting in which of these factors you value the most.
And it is something I like quite a lot. In the previous Smash games, it was quite clear who was #1 in each entry.
In Smash 64, Pikachu was the #1 character since the beginning.
In Melee, Sheik dominated early Melee with the chaingrabs, but ever since numerous tech-skills has been discovered and implemented, Fox became the undisputed #1 character to this day. There has been talks the past two years of Marth or Puff potentially surpassing Fox, but I don't think that really got anywhere.
In Brawl, outside of the first month of the game, it was quite clear that Meta Knight has the god of the game.
In SSB4, throughout the numerous balance patches of the game, there has always been a clear #1 in the game. When we left the goofy 3DS era, Diddy was seen to be the #1 character easily. After he got nerfed, Sheik was the undisputed queen of the game. After Sheik got nerfed in 1.1.5, and Bayo shortly afterwards in 1.1.6, SSB4 entered a time period where the title of #1 was very up-in-the-air, but it was only really narrowed down to Diddy or Cloud. Once Bayo reclaimed the throne over a year later after the nerfs, she was there to stay.
Now in modern Ultimate, we have now entered an era where it really is up for grabs. We had the Joker era back in 2019, and briefly the Aegis era in late 2021 and January 2022, but both eras have passed. I would like to see what you guy's two cents is in this topic, because I think it really comes down to what the individual values the most. Of course, your individual opinion on the character will also come into play as well.
Cause frankly, I completely forgot about that. I do remember now that the pre-Joker era was a chaotic tirade of multiple different characters longing for the #1 spot. Very early on, we had the Inkling era, then afterwards, characters like Wolf, Peach, Olimar, and Pichu taking center-stage at the time. Peach was a common #1 pick at the time, but I do remember compelling arguments for the other three characters as well.
i agree with your overall point 4 years deep IMO Ultimate still doesn't have a consensus best character or a character that has separated itself from the pack.I do want to bring up some discussion with the thread here since there isn't going to be anything particularly notable for a while now.
We are now currently at the point in the meta where it is now pretty up for debate on who exactly is the best character in the game. Not "who is among the best characters in the game". Who is the best character in the game.
If we were talking about late 2021 and January 2022, we would easily say Aegis, but it seems that the era of fearmongering Aegis domination has ceased ever since. Ever since then, there has been debate on who exactly is #1 in the game.
There are many different ways to look at this:
We have characters that has been statistically strong for a long time.
Do note that there are also other statistically strong characters as well, such as
This brings up another way to look at: the strong point characters. The main two I want to talk about is
At one point, MkLeo and Glutonny even agreed that Wario is in a better spot in the meta than Aegis even is. Not sure if that opinion has changed since, but that is fairly notable.
That being said, these two characters being very strong in the current meta is not an unpopular opinion. Them being potentially character in the game worthy is a very unpopular opinion, however, especially in Fox's case.
Now we turn to our third way to look at it: those with a mix of both. Now we look at
While Leo and Sparg0 mostly dropped the character, the character still receives very good high level representation from players like Cosmos and Shuton, while still being a very popular character in tournaments (especially in mid-level play).
And we can look beyond what they have been doing in tournaments to see that they fundamentally have the tools needed to succeed in any level. That is what makes them a popular candidate for #1 in the game, especially back during the character's glory days. That being said, the character definitely felt a bit of a drop off in terms of presence, thus the position of #1 in the game have once again became muddled.
Our fourth and final way to look at it is characters that we know that may be #1, but hasn't shown that right now.
However, Joker's case is quite unfortunate. The characters major drop-off in the results came with MkLeo, for the most part, dropping the character after Smash Con: Fall Fest. This is not because the character has gotten much weaker in Leo's eyes (he believes Joker to be very strong too), but he simply doesn't find enjoyment with the character anymore.
Back when MkLeo dominated most of 2019 with Joker, there was no other character in the game's history that as undisputedly #1 as Joker.
At the same time, it is hard to argue that the character has definitely seen better days, especially in lieu of characters that has far exceeded him in tournament presence ever since.
As you can see overall, there are numerous different factors that determine who will claim the coveted #1 title in the game. A lot of it ends up resulting in which of these factors you value the most.
And it is something I like quite a lot. In the previous Smash games, it was quite clear who was #1 in each entry.
In Smash 64, Pikachu was the #1 character since the beginning.
In Melee, Sheik dominated early Melee with the chaingrabs, but ever since numerous tech-skills has been discovered and implemented, Fox became the undisputed #1 character to this day. There has been talks the past two years of Marth or Puff potentially surpassing Fox, but I don't think that really got anywhere.
In Brawl, outside of the first month of the game, it was quite clear that Meta Knight has the god of the game.
In SSB4, throughout the numerous balance patches of the game, there has always been a clear #1 in the game. When we left the goofy 3DS era, Diddy was seen to be the #1 character easily. After he got nerfed, Sheik was the undisputed queen of the game. After Sheik got nerfed in 1.1.5, and Bayo shortly afterwards in 1.1.6, SSB4 entered a time period where the title of #1 was very up-in-the-air, but it was only really narrowed down to Diddy or Cloud. Once Bayo reclaimed the throne over a year later after the nerfs, she was there to stay.
Now in modern Ultimate, we have now entered an era where it really is up for grabs. We had the Joker era back in 2019, and briefly the Aegis era in late 2021 and January 2022, but both eras have passed. I would like to see what you guy's two cents is in this topic, because I think it really comes down to what the individual values the most. Of course, your individual opinion on the character will also come into play as well.
(and to an extent), Melee has (although people will argue or even as the best these days), Brawl has , 4 has ./ are probably the characters in contention for #1 in Ultimate i guess we'll continue to see how the meta continues to shape up.
Yeah Smash is ironically in a decent spot in this regard
Kazuya is rare enough it seems people don't seem to mind that much. Yeah, it doesn't exactly feel great to lose to his shenanigans, but at least it doesn't come around that much. Steve could really be annoying, and people may not want to have such a polarizing matchup that they pretty much have to counter pick, but is he really "problematic?" And I say this as no fan of Steve...or Kazuya.
And yet I've essentially been called stupid (not here) for wanting evidence that Pikachu is top tier. All they could present was winning two majors which...others have done and more, and a supposed winning record against the best player. They seemed to miss the point that an obvious best fighter should and generally has had the results to back it up. It's simply logical. If they are that insanely good, people that want to win will pick them up. But, people get stringed by a Pikachu and just seem to buy it for some reason.
I can't really definitely say either way atm.
I don't think it's weird that Esam has been able to beat Leo, the only way to prepare for that MU is to fight Esam, the other Pika players just don't have his punish game nor his 15 (I think?) years of experience playing the char at top level. Characters with broken punish games can do that when their players are on point. They run people over before they manage to adjust. Prodigy vs Leo is another example. You gotta look at how Esam performs at more local tournaments where people are used to his Pikachu too. There you can see him struggle vs players who, while certainly good (his region has pretty strong players afaik?) are still not of the same calibre as the top players he has beaten at majors.
