Official Competitive Character Impressions 2.0

[Arthur97]

That's not saying much given that bronze sword moves are largely underwhelming, I think ESAM has in the right spot really

Well it can actually KO, so it at least has that. Isn't that slow to start.

 

[toonito]

https://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/comments/tcspl5

 

[The_Bookworm]

We already got a few upsets over at Collision 2022.

Goblin 1-2 Wheezer
Pelca 0-2 MRW (Pelca then got eliminated by Goblin at loser's to be out at 129th)
Beast 1-2 Haven
naitosharp 0-2 Toxex

Edit:
Suarez 1-2 Soar
Atomsk 1-2 Kabayeezy

 

[Frihetsanka]

Local Smash Player Farms Impressions

Dash Attack Tier List pic.twitter.com/xCf5UkKh04

— ESAM (@imESAM) March 11, 2022

Mythra dash attack da Bess tho...

So Corrin's dash attack is not actually terrible in this game. Dash attack got some nice buffs in Ultimate, giving it some decent use to catch landings, spotdodges, and some slight combo potential. It's not amazing or anything but I don't see it in the same tier as Lucina or Olimar.

 

[Hydreigonfan01]

Upsets for Top 128 at Collision
https://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/comments/td97b4

 

[The_Bookworm]

We just came from a day relatively lacking in upsets, to a day with crazy upsets. Here is our list:

Chag 2-3 Stocktaker69
Aaron 2-3 Soar
Aaron 1-3 C.Kaleb (out at 65th)
Cosmos 2-3 SHADIC (this is somewhat poetic lol)
Cosmos 0-3 Peabnut (out at 33rd) (today is not Cosmos's day....)
Kola 2-3 Toast



Top 32

Winner's
MkLeo vs DDog
Elegant vs Stocktaker69
SHADIC vs Quidd
John Numbers vs Zomba
Sparg0 vs LeoN
Light vs Riddles
Tweek vs BigBoss
Toast vs Glutonny


Loser's
AxiomXL vs Chag
IcyMist vs Bobo
Peabnut vs MVD
Syrup vs Tony Pajamas
Sinji vs Tilde
Jakal vs Jake
Goblin vs Suarez
Kola vs LingLing



Edit:
Top 16

Winner's
MkLeo vs Stocktaker69
Quidd vs Zomba
Sparg0 vs Riddles
Tweek vs Glutonny


Loser's
Kola vs Goblin
Jakal vs Tilde
LeoN vs Light
BigBoss vs Chag



Edit 2:
Top 8

Winner's
MkLeo vs Quidd
Sparg0 vs Tweek


Loser's
Kola vs Riddles
Light vs Chag

 

[Ziodyne 21]

We just came from a day relatively lacking in upsets, to a day with crazy upsets. Here is our list:

Chag 2-3 Stocktaker69
Aaron 2-3 Soar
Aaron 1-3 C.Kaleb (out at 65th)
Cosmos 2-3 SHADIC (this is somewhat poetic lol)
Cosmos 0-3 Peabnut (out at 33rd) (today is not Cosmos's day....)
Kola 2-3 Toast



Top 32

Winner's
MkLeo vs DDog
Elegant vs Stocktaker69
SHADIC vs Quidd
John Numbers vs Zomba
Sparg0 vs LeoN
Light vs Riddles
Tweek vs BigBoss
Toast vs Glutonny


Loser's
AxiomXL vs Chag
IcyMist vs Bobo
Peabnut vs MVD
Syrup vs Tony Pajamas
Sinji vs Tilde
Jakal vs Jake
Goblin vs Suarez
Kola vs LingLing



Edit:
Top 16

Winner's
MkLeo vs Stocktaker69
Quidd vs Zomba
Sparg0 vs Riddles
Tweek vs Glutonny


Loser's
Kola vs Goblin
Jakal vs Tilde
LeoN vs Light
BigBoss vs Chag

It's been a good tournament for Wolf and ROB. So far.. It's hard to argue that that are not like top 8 characters at this point

 

[Gleam]

Some key thoughts.

Having a Corrin at 17th (SHADIC) is a nice impression of a character who for a lot of us, has remained kind of uncertain in their applicability.

Another character of similar notion is the 17th placing of Wii Fit Trainer who has this notion of being sporadic in her results, at one time being a Bottom 10 Orion character early on. But with placements like this, it shows the potential that I'd argue has always been there.

didn't do as well here as he did last time, but with 3 known Steves reaching 33rd or above, it's probably going to help his numbers regardless.

25th placement by Axiom is a decent placement, but a far cry from this Upper High Tier bada** people want to make Kazuya out to be. I hope this makes people realize that, Kazuya's just not holding up right now to the same level as other High Tier characters, much less the actual cream of the crop.

 

[NairWizard]

my inner smash 4 player is dying watching so many people flub edgeguards vs. Cloud. I don't care how good sparg0's Cloud is, it should be dead so much more than it is.

edit: sparg0 wins though. I think it's safe to say that, whatever is going on with Leo and his flubs and SDs, sparg0 is the best Ultimate player for the moment

 

[The_Bookworm]

Collision 2022 (749 Entrants)

1st: Sparg0 (used Aegis to take game 1 off of LeoN)
2nd: Tweek
3rd: MkLeo
4th: Riddles
5th: Light
5th: Quidd
7th: Chag
7th: Kola

Spoiler: Top 16

9th: Stocktaker69
9th: Glutonny
9th: Tilde
9th: Zomba
13th: BigBoss
13th: Jakal
13th: Goblin
13th: LeoN

Spoiler: Top 32

17th: John Numbers
17th: SHADIC
17th: Syrup
17th: Toast
17th: Elegant
17th: DDog
17th: Bobo
17th: Peabnut

25th: Sinji
25th: Suarez
25th: LingLing
25th: Tony Pajamas
25th: IcyMist
25th: Jake
25th: AxiomXL
25th: MVD

Spoiler: Top 64

33rd: LA GRIMACE
33rd: Wheezer
33rd: DM
33rd: MPg
33rd: Z
33rd: C.Kaleb
33rd: Soar
33rd: Padrino
33rd: Grayson
33rd: yonni
33rd: SoulArts
33rd: Sensei
33rd: Cosmos
33rd: PkChris
33rd: Haven
33rd: Kofi

49th: White Nova
49th: Z minus
49th: Zaphros
49th: Xavier
49th: Colmar
49th: Vivi
49th: Yoda Cage
49th: Zane
49th: Scot
49th: ChocoTaco
49th: BeatyBean
49th: Nuggetz
49th: Sweshi
49th: Beast
49th: Gatsby
49th: Toxex

 

[Kokiden]

Nice. More Cloud vods to watch.

Yeah MkLeo's Byleth has been figured out at this point. He needs to either find new things to do with Byleth, or switch characters. Most likely he'll still stick with Byleth and probably bring out the Pythra more often now.

I'm seeing more Joker comments in the chat, but it's obvious he's not going to lol. I surmise those demands are having the opposite effect at this point, but we'll see.

 

[NairWizard]

What sets were you watching that made you conclude that his Byleth's been figured out? Byleth was one hit away from 3-0ing sparg0 and 1-3 hits away from winning games vs. Tweek. Leo flubbed some easy conversions and didn't edgeguard Cloud as cleanly as he could have. Last week, I saw weaknesses in Byleth's gameplan. This week, I didn't. There were adjustments; it was just shy of being enough for a win.

 

[Dan Quixote]

Round of applause for Stocktaker69 just for the laughs of existing there.

But yeah I'm with NairWizard. No way his Byleth's been figured out when he's still noticeably improving with the character.

 

[Cheryl~]

I agree with NairWizard about the flubs on Cloud's recovery. Leo just... didn't try at all until the last few games to Nair the Up B, and there wasn't a single attempt to Up B spike, although that may not be as viable on a recovery like Cloud's. Tweek did a lot better at pressuring Sparg0 offstage, but notably didn't land a single Z-drop conversion due to the way Sparg0 was timing his Up Bs and not riding the walls of the stages. Also, weirdly a LOT of Smashville in those sets for some reason. I didn't really mind, felt like a nice callback to Smash 4 Smashville spam haha.

also Cloud is top 15 at worst

 

[Idon]

https://twitter.com/Mkleosb/status/1503195801262120962?t=lcjcbyixRP5EYPQgdDx6xA&s=19

"No I'm not going back to Joker, stop asking."

 

[Frihetsanka]

Some thoughts: Pokémon Trainer should not be slept on. Riddles is a very good player. If SHADIC keeps going he'll be PGR and Corrin better than people give her credit for (top 40, maybe top 35, is where I'm leaning atm). Chag is a really good player and Palutena is still top tier. MkLeo's Byleth probably won't be as consistent as it used to be, it's still strong but not as dominant anymore, maybe he should pair it with Pyra/Mythra or something more often?

Oh, and Cloud is probably top 15? Sounds about right. The character is not as dominant as in Smash 4 but he still has so many busted moves, and limit is still great.

 

[Kokiden]

What sets were you watching that made you conclude that his Byleth's been figured out? Byleth was one hit away from 3-0ing sparg0 and 1-3 hits away from winning games vs. Tweek. Leo flubbed some easy conversions and didn't edgeguard Cloud as cleanly as he could have. Last week, I saw weaknesses in Byleth's gameplan. This week, I didn't. There were adjustments; it was just shy of being enough for a win.

I saw weaknesses in both weeks.

By figured out, I meant he's no longer steamrolling them like he did when he first used the character. Why? Because they're, like I said, figuring out his Byleth.

It is quite noticeable that he is having a harder time with his Byleth as time goes on. I thought that was obvious just by watching.

You realize I'm not saying he's washed or anything close to that, right?

Everyone else is getting better, which is the very definition of figuring out his Byleth.

 

[NairWizard]

By figured out, I meant he's no longer steamrolling them like he did when he first used the character.

He never steamrolled Tweek and sparg0. The games at Riptide were super competitive until Tweek got flustered in game 5 WF, and sparg0 took his Byleth to GF reset game 5 last hit at Mainstage. Today, we just saw a few interactions go the other way and some obvious mistakes.

On the other hand, Leo's Byleth at summit definitely was looking pretty figured out. You could tell just by Leo's body language alone. He's adapted incredibly well given that it's only been a week. But like I said last week, one week is definitely not enough. Give him some time, and the Byleth might look dominant again (a.k.a. win without dropping a set).

That said, I think (based only on gameplay, not results) that sparg0 is currently better than Leo, and if sparg0 keeps improving at the same rate as Leo, sparg0 will be the new #1 for the next year.

 

[KirbySquad101]

Oof, I definitely wanted to do one of these again, but work finding do be rough. But anyway, some notes; gonna start with small stuff, then gradually gonna get into da paragraphs:

- I really f***ing hate kill screens. I swear one of these days a row of 5 of them are gonna give me a heart attack LMAO.

- 2nd most likely character to cause upsets after ? Tbh, I'm kinda curious on this, cause Wheezer beating beating Goblin has shades of D3 Will beating LeoN.

- in Top 24, nice! Unless I'm wrong, that's a first for the character in a long while. MKLeo has been going on recently on how underrated he thinks the character is, perhaps SHADIC can show it.

- 3 s in Top 64, and not a single one is Tea's. Huh. Same deal for , but those characters having high representation is nothing new.

- An underrated unsung performance by Riddles, beating almost everyone he's come across except 1st and 2nd place of this tournament. Even then, his resilience against Tweek despite how well Diddy can dance around Terry's hitboxes was nearly impeccable (also what were those percents Light was dying at against him, jeez).

------------

About the whole MKLeo thing, since this can be its own post entirely:

I think the thing people are missing about MKLeo no longer placing Top 2 is that back before 2020, there wasn't a single player who could consistently challenge him, aside from maybe ESAM. Tweek may have beaten him one day, but that wouldn't be in the same tournament Samsora or Marss would have beaten him. If anything, MKLeo's weaker placements are more of a testament to just how cracked Sparg0 actually is at the game.

In terms of Byleth, though... Eh, that's something we need more data on to confirm if he is being "figured out". Judging from this tournament's sets, the Byleth flowchart of "throw BAir/FAir to get the opponent to close in on you -> throw NAir out close-up and mix your landing with it to make it impossible to punish" still worked very well even against unfavorable MUs like Diddy and Cloud, so at that point, all you need is some simple adjustments like MKLeo suggested. Or maybe not, depends on what happens next.

To be completely honest, it's nice to finally see players not being pessimistic on their characters for a change, and doubly good on MKLeo to continue to stick to Byleth unless he hits an actual roadblock with the character. And if Sparg0's and Tweek's performances with and respectively are anything to go by, people need more of that kind of faith if they want to succeed (secondary meta my foot!).

 

[Arthur97]

Despite the earlier doom and gloom, the Aegis sisters seem to be falling off a bit. No one seems to be talking about that though.

Also kinda ironic how quick people are to sing Cloud's praise compared to the Byleths.

 

[Frihetsanka]

Despite the earlier doom and gloom, the Aegis sisters seem to be falling off a bit.

It's not looking good for people who want a clear #1 in this game. Joker? Nope, people dropped him. Pikachu? He never had the results to back it up. Pyra & Mythra still seem like the most likely #1 candidate but they're not nearly as dominant as Smash 4 Bayonetta (or even Cloud!), Brawl Meta Knight, or Melee Fox.

Aside from those 3, who would even be the candidate for #1? Wolf? Palutena? While both are clearly strong, neither of them are that prevalent in the meta.

 

[Hydreigonfan01]

Nothing updated in major winners this week, but I thought I'd add on characters that got into top 8 even if they didn't win. Believe it or not but this isn't the first time Terry made top 8 at a major, as Tsu got into top 8 at Kagaribi 3 (Same reason why Lucario is here).

 

[Dan Quixote]

It's not looking good for people who want a clear #1 in this game. Joker? Nope, people dropped him. Pikachu? He never had the results to back it up. Pyra & Mythra still seem like the most likely #1 candidate but they're not nearly as dominant as Smash 4 Bayonetta (or even Cloud!), Brawl Meta Knight, or Melee Fox.

Aside from those 3, who would even be the candidate for #1? Wolf? Palutena? While both are clearly strong, neither of them are that prevalent in the meta.

Yo who would actually want a clear #1 in a fighting game makes no sense

 

[Diddy Kong]

ahem I believe we can now confidently state that optimized Diddy is a Top Tier character. If Tweek can keep his focus, and not lose it whenever he's losing momentum or losing in general, he'll bring his Diddy far. It's a blast to see him play this character, so aggressively and explosively.

 

[Frihetsanka]

ahem I believe we can now confidently state that optimized Diddy is a Top Tier character. If Tweek can keep his focus, and not lose it whenever he's losing momentum or losing in general, he'll bring his Diddy far. It's a blast to see him play this character, so aggressively and explosively.

So Diddy is a very strange character to rate. Generally speaking, Diddy Kong wins versus many top tiers, but also loses to a bunch of random high tiers and mid tiers. Many of his mains think he loses 15+ matchups, some even have 20+ losing MUs for Diddy.

But how bad is it to lose vs a mid tier? It's not nearly as bad as losing vs a top tier. You're much less likely to run into a good Duck Hunt than a good Palutena or Lucina, and Diddy does well vs Palutena and Lucina but gets kind of destroyed by Duck Hunt (according to many Diddy players, as well as Duck Hunt players). This makes him kind of tricky to place... If you factor in secondaries, Diddy becomes much better. Pick up an easy secondary like Wolf, Lucina, or Pyra/Mythra and Diddy suddenly becomes kind of a beast who beats many top tiers and you can use a secondary to cover those bad matchups.

Is Tweek a solo main? No, not really. Tweek has one of the best Wolfs, even as a secondary, and he could also potentially pull out Sephiroth if he wanted to. This makes his Diddy Kong much less vulnerable to counter-picks, if he runs into an Olimar player or a Duck Hunt player or a Pac-Man player he can just play Wolf or Sephiroth instead.

Should tier lists take secondaries into account? As far as I know, tier lists generally consider solo viability. Once you start factoring in secondaries it gets more complicated. Diddy Kong is an amazing character if you use a secondary to cover his -2 MUs (and maybe even turn those -1 MUs into +1 MUs), but as a solo main he's somewhat lacking, due to his large number of losing MUs. This makes him very inconsistent as a solo main. I think this probably makes him more of a high tier character rather than a top tier character. If you pair him with a secondary he's one of the scariest characters in the game, and even as a solo main you shouldn't sleep on him (especially since it's fairly unlikely that you run into a Duck Hunt or a Pac-Man or Olimar etc in bracket).

It's also, of course, possible that people have been sleeping on Diddy, and that Diddy mains exaggerate how bad some MUs are. Maybe some of those "really bad" MUs are pretty even, after all? It wouldn't be the first time top tier mains have downplayed their character. Right now I'm leaning upper high tier, but he does seem like a candidate for top tier.

Oh, and this also applies to MkLeo's Byleth, he has secondaries to deal with her bad MUs, so that makes her seem better than she actually is. Many characters are more viable if you combine them with a secondary, assuming you can play the secondary well.

 

[blackghost]

Some key thoughts.

Having a Corrin at 17th (SHADIC) is a nice impression of a character who for a lot of us, has remained kind of uncertain in their applicability.

Another character of similar notion is the 17th placing of Wii Fit Trainer who has this notion of being sporadic in her results, at one time being a Bottom 10 Orion character early on. But with placements like this, it shows the potential that I'd argue has always been there.

didn't do as well here as he did last time, but with 3 known Steves reaching 33rd or above, it's probably going to help his numbers regardless.

25th placement by Axiom is a decent placement, but a far cry from this Upper High Tier bada** people want to make Kazuya out to be. I hope this makes people realize that, Kazuya's just not holding up right now to the same level as other High Tier characters, much less the actual cream of the crop.

Not calling you out I'm calling out the faulty logic at play here. You argue one interpretation for one character (wii fit) and another set for another character Kazuya. Characters got similar results and both characters lost to gate keeper top tier. 17th vs 25th is not a sizable gap. Basing entire characters from one player even if it is the best user of each character is faulty logic.

Unless you are gonna argue with fit is a high tier, you are gonna be arguing that Kazuya is kid Tier or lower which good luck with that.
I havent watched axiom matches yet but illl do a full wirte up when i can.

 

[Frihetsanka]

Unless you are gonna argue with fit is a high tier, you are gonna be arguing that Kazuya is kid Tier or lower which good luck with that.

I mean, Dabuz put Kazuya in mid tier, so it doesn't seem that far out there to place Kazuya in mid tier? So far the character seems to be "potential" and not really showing it. I'm not convinced he's high tier yet but I'm also not convinced he's not. So far none of the FGC characters have impressed me nearly as much as Smash 4 Ryu though.

 

[StrangeKitten]

Not calling you out I'm calling out the faulty logic at play here. You argue one interpretation for one character (wii fit) and another set for another character Kazuya. Characters got similar results and both characters lost to gate keeper top tier. 17th vs 25th is not a sizable gap. Basing entire characters from one player even if it is the best user of each character is faulty logic.

Unless you are gonna argue with fit is a high tier, you are gonna be arguing that Kazuya is kid Tier or lower which good luck with that.
I havent watched axiom matches yet but illl do a full wirte up when i can.

I've seen a few of the FGC players saying that Kazuya is the worst one as of late. If Ken, Ryu, and Terry are high tier (which is the consensus of how good they are, and one I agree with), then Kazuya being mid tier doesn't seem far fetched. And I mean, mid tiers are still solid characters who can blow you up, it's just that they have glaring weaknesses, which might be fitting for Kazuya too.

 

[Frihetsanka]

Reddit made a tier list, not that Young Link is supposed to be between Chrom and Samus in High Tier +. Some interesting notes: Top 21 is top tier, having a very big top tier. Top 47 is high tier, more than half in high tier or top tier, very generous. Only 12 characters in low tier and bottom tier, surprisingly few characters placed in low tier, in my opinion. Still, all in all I don't think it's a bad tier list. Corrin had a good amount of people voting for high tier, but in the end she had more mid tier votes than high tier votes. Link: https://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/comments/te1pk9/official_rsmashbros_ultimate_tier_list/

 

[Gleam]

Nobody said anything about Wii Fit's placement.

Unlike Kazuya, Wii Fit wasn't constantly given some absurd level of praise thanks to "tools" or "Theories." If anything she was kind of unknown, uncertain and not much thought was ever given to the character. Wii Fit getting 17th isn't a notion of, wow that's definitely a high tier. It's a notion of, hey that character exists and can do something. We often overlook WFT, but hey, there she goes.

At "currently #42 of Orion with small but strong showing such as with Collision 2022, WFT is definitely in a better running for High Tier than Kazuya is. That might not necessarily give her the edge to make her a High Tier, but hey, again, that's a better showing than Kazuya.

Kazuya himself, peaked pretty much at the start and then fizzled out and even his best was rare. You had that rare moment of Brr getting 9th in Low Tide 2021 and that was pretty much it. That was Kazuya's brief, shining, 3-stock Fox with Ganondorf that one match moment. Now his results have not only dropped significantly, but they've become sporadic. Sometimes he'll pull a 24, other times a 33rd or maybe even a 65th.

I mean, if I'm hesitant enough to still put Ridley in High Tier, despite being in the Top #30s of Orion, with actual Top 8s and 16's being consistently placed by people such as Mezcaul. Then there's no way I'm going to put Kazuya in that same tier.

 

[Diddy Kong]

So Diddy is a very strange character to rate. Generally speaking, Diddy Kong wins versus many top tiers, but also loses to a bunch of random high tiers and mid tiers. Many of his mains think he loses 15+ matchups, some even have 20+ losing MUs for Diddy.

But how bad is it to lose vs a mid tier? It's not nearly as bad as losing vs a top tier. You're much less likely to run into a good Duck Hunt than a good Palutena or Lucina, and Diddy does well vs Palutena and Lucina but gets kind of destroyed by Duck Hunt (according to many Diddy players, as well as Duck Hunt players). This makes him kind of tricky to place... If you factor in secondaries, Diddy becomes much better. Pick up an easy secondary like Wolf, Lucina, or Pyra/Mythra and Diddy suddenly becomes kind of a beast who beats many top tiers and you can use a secondary to cover those bad matchups.

Is Tweek a solo main? No, not really. Tweek has one of the best Wolfs, even as a secondary, and he could also potentially pull out Sephiroth if he wanted to. This makes his Diddy Kong much less vulnerable to counter-picks, if he runs into an Olimar player or a Duck Hunt player or a Pac-Man player he can just play Wolf or Sephiroth instead.

Should tier lists take secondaries into account? As far as I know, tier lists generally consider solo viability. Once you start factoring in secondaries it gets more complicated. Diddy Kong is an amazing character if you use a secondary to cover his -2 MUs (and maybe even turn those -1 MUs into +1 MUs), but as a solo main he's somewhat lacking, due to his large number of losing MUs. This makes him very inconsistent as a solo main. I think this probably makes him more of a high tier character rather than a top tier character. If you pair him with a secondary he's one of the scariest characters in the game, and even as a solo main you shouldn't sleep on him (especially since it's fairly unlikely that you run into a Duck Hunt or a Pac-Man or Olimar etc in bracket).

It's also, of course, possible that people have been sleeping on Diddy, and that Diddy mains exaggerate how bad some MUs are. Maybe some of those "really bad" MUs are pretty even, after all? It wouldn't be the first time top tier mains have downplayed their character. Right now I'm leaning upper high tier, but he does seem like a candidate for top tier.

Oh, and this also applies to MkLeo's Byleth, he has secondaries to deal with her bad MUs, so that makes her seem better than she actually is. Many characters are more viable if you combine them with a secondary, assuming you can play the secondary well.

I don't necessarily agree that Diddy has all that many losing matchups. The most relevant ones being against PacMan, Pikachu and Steve, but other than that I wouldn't say his losing matchups are a detrimental factor for Diddy in Ultimate. It's not like those characters are extremely common either.

Who he does win against are Palutena and Lucina, even goes well enough against the Aegis, and those are a lot more common. Diddy generally holds well against all of the Top Tiers honestly. There's a reason Tweek stuck with this character, and made him his main. Sure he's no solo main, but he's acting more and more like one nowadays, and I recall not many Aegis users use them solo either. So I don't think that's a very good point overall.

 

[Hydreigonfan01]

My personal take on the meta right now is that the best players don't have to play the best characters in order to succeed, and could rather just play the characters they really love. Leo is using Byleth over his Aegis, Sparg0 is currently using Cloud over his Aegis and Tweek is using Diddy over Wolf. Even if you think highly of their mains, I think it's safe to assume all three would be considered worse then or . Outside of the Top 3 in the world, Riddles did amazingly with at Collision, a character who's agreed to be high tier.

Not to say tier lists don't matter completely, because I'd argue all the players I mentioned are still using some of the better high tiers in this game, but I don't think "top player is doing fantastically with X Character" means top tier by itself. This is Ultimate, the most balanced Smash game and one of the most balanced fighting games period.

 

[Sucumbio]

My personal take on the meta right now is that the best players don't have to play the best characters in order to succeed, and could rather just play the characters they really love. Leo is using Byleth over his Aegis, Sparg0 is currently using Cloud over his Aegis and Tweek is using Diddy over Wolf. Even if you think highly of their mains, I think it's safe to assume all three would be considered worse then or . Outside of the Top 3 in the world, Riddles did amazingly with at Collision, a character who's agreed to be high tier.

Not to say tier lists don't matter completely, because I'd argue all the players I mentioned are still using some of the better high tiers in this game, but I don't think "top player is doing fantastically with X Character" means top tier by itself. This is Ultimate, the most balanced Smash game and one of the most balanced fighting games period.

Hard agree. Riddles was on point even beat kola with kazuya... These players are just getting better and better to where they're going to be in top 8 no matter what and if needed they're going to use whatever counter pick character they have to stay in top 8 while mainly sticking to their favorites.

The diversity of characters in top 8 at majors is a strong indicator as well toward the balance of this game.

 

[F4lcoMain]

Local Smash Player Farms Impressions

Dash Attack Tier List pic.twitter.com/xCf5UkKh04

— ESAM (@imESAM) March 11, 2022

Mythra dash attack da Bess tho...

Falco's Dash attack is definitely his worst move. Doesn't really cross up, negative on hit, doesn't combo, kills pretty late, doesn't 2-frame, etc. Its one of those weird moves that you wouldn't think is bad due to its frame data and kinda active hitbox, but in practice, other options are better. Pivot cancel F-tilt (and especially Up-Tilt and Down-Tilt if you are consistent at landing those) or even dash tilts will almost always be better due to being safer and having way more reward (even F-Tilt sets up for a grab / tech chases quite nicely).

 

[Hydreigonfan01]

RETA 2022 is the next major, 2 weeks before GENESIS.

Character/event update will be published in the morning! However, I'm happy to announce that RETA 2022 is a Category 4 (A-Tier) equivalent.

— Barnard's Loop (@LoopBarnard) March 16, 2022

 

[Hydreigonfan01]

OrionStats update

OrionStats Character data update for mid-March. Collision injects hundreds of points; Cloud is just shy of the Top 10, Pyra moves into 5th, Samus continues to decline, Ness holds his own. Ken has managed to stick around in the top 30 for quite a while at this point. pic.twitter.com/vlOhCnPrO8

— Barnard's Loop (@LoopBarnard) March 16, 2022

 

[F4lcoMain]

OrionStats update

OrionStats Character data update for mid-March. Collision injects hundreds of points; Cloud is just shy of the Top 10, Pyra moves into 5th, Samus continues to decline, Ness holds his own. Ken has managed to stick around in the top 30 for quite a while at this point. pic.twitter.com/vlOhCnPrO8

— Barnard's Loop (@LoopBarnard) March 16, 2022

Falco at 25 is pretty nice! Find it funny he's right next to Bayonetta given that they are somewhat similar (very high reward, but frail characters).

 

[Sucumbio]

OrionStats update

OrionStats Character data update for mid-March. Collision injects hundreds of points; Cloud is just shy of the Top 10, Pyra moves into 5th, Samus continues to decline, Ness holds his own. Ken has managed to stick around in the top 30 for quite a while at this point. pic.twitter.com/vlOhCnPrO8

— Barnard's Loop (@LoopBarnard) March 16, 2022

I feel I should know this but does this list rank characters based purely on wins? Like with Roy at number 1 does this mean Roy has won more tournaments than everyone else kinda thing?

 

[Frihetsanka]

I feel I should know this but does this list rank characters based purely on wins? Like with Roy at number 1 does this mean Roy has won more tournaments than everyone else kinda thing?

The characters get points based on placements and stuff.

 

[Emblem Lord]

This discussion about Kazuya is sort of pointless and slightly amusing imo.

He will never be fully tapped nor is there any reason to invest the time and energy that's needed to do so.