Official Competitive Character Impressions 2.0

[Frihetsanka]

I mean, did anyone seriously think any character in Unite is nearly as broken as Smash 4 Cloud? I feel like a lot of this is people overreacting to Sparg0's tweet: At the end of the day, someone has to be #1. Is it Joker? His results have dropped quite a bit over the years, and Joker mains seem to love to say that he's not #1, and he does seem to have some troubling matchups. Is it Pikachu? Perhaps, there is the slight issue with a relative lack of results for a #1 character. Is it Wolf? I feel like we'd see more Wolf players if Wolf were the #1. Is it Palutena? Plausible enough, I suppose. Is it Pyra & Mythra? I think it's decently likely, even if they're not as broken as Smash 4 Cloud or Smash 4 Bayonetta it's not like the #1 character has to be.

And really, what other candidates for #1 do we have, anyways? Are we going to say that Roy is #1? ROB? Peach? Other than Pikachu, Joker, Pyra/Mythra, Palutena, I don't really see who the #1 character would be. In any case the #1 character is not as dominant as Smash 4 Bayonetta, or Smash 4 Cloud. Maybe even worse than Smash 4 Diddy Kong and/or Sheik? It's plausible enough that the #1 in this game is worse than the #3 in Smash 4, the game is better balanced. I don't know how good Pyra/Mythra are exactly, but I'd be very surprised if they'll end up being worse than top 7, and quite surprised if they're not top 5, fairly surprised if they're not top 3. Are they obviously the #1 pick? No, not really, but they're a strong candidate for it.

"Overrated" could mean different things, anyway. Someone who believes that they are #3 might call them overrated because the community (from what I've seen) tends to lean towards #1 right now, but being #3 in the game while also being easier to play than the #1 and #2 characters is not bad at all! Calling them "good" seems to be underselling them, if they're good, then what characters are great? Is this game lacking in great characters? With that being said, I think she's fairly consistently top 3, and decently often not #1, so calling them "overrated" would imply that they're not top 3. So that implies that there are at least 3, maybe 4, 5, 6 or more characters that are better than Pyra/Mythra. That's very interesting to me.

I have a question for people who think that Pyra/Mythra are overrated: Which characters are better than they are? Joker, Pikachu, sure, strong candidates. Palutena is plausible, the character is a bit silly and people somewhat forgot that after Nairo got Twitch-banned (but Chag, and some other Palutena players, are showing up lately). Wolf? I suppose it's plausible, though I don't believe it myself. Roy? I think he's strong but I don't think he's better than Aegis. Who else? ROB? Pac-Man? Peach? Pokémon Trainer? Game & Watch? Shulk? Sonic? Lucina? Snake? Fox? Mario?

 

[Sucumbio]

Quite the opposite I think mostly everyone at least here said they were not smash 4 cloud or bayo. I think sparg0 is saying there's no need for anyone to even entertain that notion of dominance if they're inclined to. They're good obviously but like every good character in Ultimate they're susceptible to counter play. No one dominates consistently in this game and I think it's a wonderful thing.

 

[Hydreigonfan01]

Zackray won't be competing for a few months. This may end up affecting Joker's results for a while (and possibly Sheik's as well)
https://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/comments/tj8y3a

 

[Arthur97]

I'm definitely willing to admit they are potentially the best, but one or two acted like they would or could be detrimental to the meta and we're just not seeing that. But also in the end, as stated, best is a largely worthless and nigh impossible title to determine in Ultimate.

I mean, did anyone seriously think any character in Unite is nearly as broken as Smash 4 Cloud? I feel like a lot of this is people overreacting to Sparg0's tweet: At the end of the day, someone has to be #1. Is it Joker? His results have dropped quite a bit over the years, and Joker mains seem to love to say that he's not #1, and he does seem to have some troubling matchups. Is it Pikachu? Perhaps, there is the slight issue with a relative lack of results for a #1 character. Is it Wolf? I feel like we'd see more Wolf players if Wolf were the #1. Is it Palutena? Plausible enough, I suppose. Is it Pyra & Mythra? I think it's decently likely, even if they're not as broken as Smash 4 Cloud or Smash 4 Bayonetta it's not like the #1 character has to be.

And really, what other candidates for #1 do we have, anyways? Are we going to say that Roy is #1? ROB? Peach? Other than Pikachu, Joker, Pyra/Mythra, Palutena, I don't really see who the #1 character would be. In any case the #1 character is not as dominant as Smash 4 Bayonetta, or Smash 4 Cloud. Maybe even worse than Smash 4 Diddy Kong and/or Sheik? It's plausible enough that the #1 in this game is worse than the #3 in Smash 4, the game is better balanced. I don't know how good Pyra/Mythra are exactly, but I'd be very surprised if they'll end up being worse than top 7, and quite surprised if they're not top 5, fairly surprised if they're not top 3. Are they obviously the #1 pick? No, not really, but they're a strong candidate for it.

"Overrated" could mean different things, anyway. Someone who believes that they are #3 might call them overrated because the community (from what I've seen) tends to lean towards #1 right now, but being #3 in the game while also being easier to play than the #1 and #2 characters is not bad at all! Calling them "good" seems to be underselling them, if they're good, then what characters are great? Is this game lacking in great characters? With that being said, I think she's fairly consistently top 3, and decently often not #1, so calling them "overrated" would imply that they're not top 3. So that implies that there are at least 3, maybe 4, 5, 6 or more characters that are better than Pyra/Mythra. That's very interesting to me.

I have a question for people who think that Pyra/Mythra are overrated: Which characters are better than they are? Joker, Pikachu, sure, strong candidates. Palutena is plausible, the character is a bit silly and people somewhat forgot that after Nairo got Twitch-banned (but Chag, and some other Palutena players, are showing up lately). Wolf? I suppose it's plausible, though I don't believe it myself. Roy? I think he's strong but I don't think he's better than Aegis. Who else? ROB? Pac-Man? Peach? Pokémon Trainer? Game & Watch? Shulk? Sonic? Lucina? Snake? Fox? Mario?

Okay, would you seriously even consider Pikachu if pros didn't keep saying it? Seriously, what makes Pikachu special over any other high theory fighter other than having ESAM as a backer? This Pikachu nonsense is really bizarre. Guess that's the power of personality for you.

 

[KirbySquad101]

Out of curiosity, I ended up rewatching LeoN v Sparg0's sets from Port Priority and Collision respectively, and the biggest difference I saw between the two sets was LeoN's patience. Rather than trying to interrupt Sparg0 in the middle of his set-ups and plans - something he tried often in Port Priority which ended up failing miserable fro the most part - he mainly waited on Sparg0 executing his plan first and then looking for openings thereafter. As a basic example - instead of trying to DAir his way through the Aegis' juggles, he instead jumped around to evade where Sparg0 was going to try to land an UAir on him and return to the ground that way. Then - since the camera would have trouble following LeoN's descent - Sparg0 would have a hard time gauging where LeoN ended up, and LeoN used that to his advantage to punish Sparg0's landing consistently. This is a common tactic Maister likes to do with GnW DAir.

The most prominent example of LeoN's gameplan can be seen right here. Rather than take Sparg0's bait and throw out a hitbox (like so many other players do which is one way ticket to getting dash attacked), he simply did what Sparg0 did and just stood there. Knowing that Sparg0 was looking for Bowser to swing, he dashed forward, then proceeded to dash away - instead of falling for Sparg0's plan, he took it and flipped it on his head, which gave him a free 40% lead. Once you realize LeoN knew how to play around both Sparg0's defensive bait AND his overly aggressive pressure, you could kinda tell Sparg0 didn't really know how to deal with LeoN in neutral consistently without avoiding taking 40% damage, and this extends to his disadvantage as well. Once LeoN started waiting for Sparg0 to make a ledge option first instead of trying to go for a risky Bowser Bomb like he did at Port Priority, you could see just how limited Aegis' corner options became once he stopped falling for Pyra Up B jebaiting.

I will say, however, if anyone's gameplay got worse between sets, it was definitely Sparg0's. Compared to Port Priority, I don't think there was single time Sparg0 even attempted to edgeguard LeoN despite the fact that's how he consistently stopped Bowser's rage from getting out of control previously, and it's one of the few times you can actually challenge Bowser without potentially being uno-reversed.

Thinking about it more, it's kinda hard to tell what Sparg0 means - does he mean they're overrated as in they're not top 1 or as in they're top 1, but not Smash 4 Cloud? In my case, I still think Aegis are the best in the game, but I also think now they're no longer easily the best in the game - I fully admit to overreacting on that end lol. I do think there's legitimate arguments to be had for other characters to take that mantle like Joker or ROB (Zomba could lowkey be unstoppable if he fixed his bad mentality), even if I don't necessarily agree on those characters taking that mantle.

------------------------

Side note, to add to the pile of noteworthy tournaments this week, here's the results of Chubu's most recent big tourney, Chūbu Smash Bros. Chronicle #1:

1. Rizesau
2. Yoshidora
3. Paseriman
4. Kaeru
5. Kome
5. Repo
7. Toura
7. Shidarezakura
9. DIO
9. mzk
9. Asto
9. Kyon
13. Levi
13. Raito
13. tatsumiko
13. Tamopio

I'll risk sounding biased here, but special shoutout to Kaeru who placed the highest out of all the players in his region, 3-0'd Kome in his run, and almost got the runback against Paseriman after forcing him to switch off his Fox.

 

[F4lcoMain]

I'm definitely willing to admit they are potentially the best, but one or two acted like they would be detrimental to the meta and we're just not seeing that. But also in the end, as stated, best is a largely worthless and nigh impossible title to determine in Ultimate.

Okay, would you seriously even consider Pikachu if pros didn't keep saying it? Seriously, what makes Pikachu special over any other high theory fighter other than having ESAM as a backer? This Pikachu nonsense is really bizarre. Guess that's the power of personality for you.

Well part of it is other players and resources like Game8 reaffirming it with MU spreads. Look at Pikachu's MU spread there & he'll definitely seem like the most dominant character in the game. The MU spreads shown on that site aren't entirely outlandish either from my understanding since top players were consulted to help construct them.

 

[superjm]

If Pikachu truly only has 2 or 3 bad matchups then he's easily without question the best character in the game. Naturally, I don't believe that for a second, and neither should anyone else because that's an absurdity.

 

[Arthur97]

Well part of it is other players and resources like Game8 reaffirming it with MU spreads. Look at Pikachu's MU spread there & he'll definitely seem like the most dominant character in the game. The MU spreads shown on that site aren't entirely outlandish either from my understanding since top players were consulted to help construct them.

Well, apparently they aren't that great. See, just because someone is really good at the game doesn't mean they know much outside of their general experience. And, low and behold, Pikachu isn't that common to fight. Just look at how many hot takes pros have, and sometimes clickbait may certainly play a part in that, but still. Not to mention when it comes to mid and below, most of the top ones probably know even less simply due to inexperience. Now, I'm no wiz, but the sheer reality of the situation right now is that Pikachu has little to no real evidence to back up these claims of being the best. Yes somehow, despite a dearth of major results, people continually rank PIkachu extremely high. It's like Shulk but worse.

 

[blackghost]

Yeah, he's not THAT hard. Everyone has to deal with 80 mu's not just Kazuya.

first off yes. he's that hard.

and like other said a lazuya player is playing tekkena nd smash at the same time that means your execution of combos needs to factor in weight, rage, floatiness, and escape options as well as optimally perform anti airs and armor challenges where possible. thers a lot more for a kazuya player to conisder on how to challenge or escape pressure vs say game and watch who 90% of the time just press up b. or a palutena challnges a button by rar bairing at it with her transcendent buttons. kazuya does not have an any answer byutton or move in any given time there is a right answer but you have to know it more completly and your understanding must be deeper than all other characters.

What a high level bayonetta does in ultimate to get everything out of their combos a kazuya player must do for most if not all interactions during a match even movement. the level needed to suceed is so much higher than other chaarcters.


i believe kazuya to be an elite character because i mostly see flaws of the players occurring (dropped combos, incorrect edge trap options, dropped punishes, and input errors in nuetral.) i dont see the flaws in the character himself really cause the loss of matches outside of extremely deep edge gaurd challenges. if a kazuya player gets to the point where every time he lands an electric he is killing or finishing the combo and has the movement options down north of 80 percent of the time i think many people will change their tune on the character. i dont think kazuya will ever be fully understood or optimized. but i dont think he has to be to have an impact.

 

[Nah]

I mean, did anyone seriously think any character in Unite is nearly as broken as Smash 4 Cloud?

Quite the opposite I think mostly everyone at least here said they were not smash 4 cloud or bayo.

Several people in this very thread said, and the common sentiment people have held about Aegis for most of their time in this game, was that Aegis is or will be Ultimate's version of . It's only been in the past week or two that some of you have finally begun to consider getting off that train.

 

[KirbySquad101]

The comparison to wasn't too common if I recall correctly (and if it was drawn, it was often lambasted), but the comparisons to were definitely made and more abundant. Linear swordies that were simple to pick up as both a main or a pocket, had multiple buttons whose numbers were generally overtuned, and a recovery that wasn't bad, but could definitely be exploited in some ways.

For a while, it did look like they were about to be picked up as much as Smash 4 Cloud was, evident by how rapidly their OrionStats results climbed last year (which I'm pretty sure went from somewhere in the 40s to #5). But for now, it looks like that climb has stagnated to some degree.

 

[NairWizard]

I mean, you can't really blame people for thinking that Aegis was going to be a problem. The data and gameplay certainly suggested it. In fact, the data hasn't stopped suggesting it. Cosmos and Shuton have pulled multiple top 3s, even if Leo and sparg0 are gravitating away from Aegis, and Aegis has strong representation and results at every other level. Even at top level, one or two tournaments where top-level results don't feature Aegis don't buck the trend.

The gameplay certainly looks different though, and that's worth mentioning.

It should be evident from my posting history that my analysis of the game focuses almost exclusively on the very top level, because that's what I enjoy best. For me, the Aegis counterplay at that level is a surprise. If you're looking at the game from any other perspective, as most of you do (and as is completely reasonable to do, since the top level is a very thin slice), then Aegis' position shouldn't have shifted noticeably.

 

[The_Bookworm]

Something that I noticed is that, even back when Aegis was talked about in a frightening tone a few months ago, there are actually barely any players who actually solo main the character, or at the very least, there are barely any players who solo main the character and achieve any notable success in high level tournaments.

The main one, of course, is Cosmos.

However outside of him, it is hard to find someone who solo mains the character, let alone achieve a high level of success with them. Even back when Sparg0 had Aegis as a primary focus, he still used Cloud a lot in bracket, and it is now his primary character. Shuton plays Aegis a lot, but he is still primarily an Olimar player. MkLeo focuses heavily in Byleth, mainly bringing Aegis out for specific player/character matchups.

Even outside the primary bunch I mentioned here, the other notable Aegis players that I know at the top of my head, such as Blacktwins, DM, and Frozen, still play their other characters a considerable amount as well (Pichu, Pikachu, and Palutena, respectively).


Another thing I noticed is that there is a surprisingly little amount of Aegis in Japan. Outside of Shuton, who doesn't even solo main the character, I don't really know anyone else there that mains the character. I know that Kome and Proto said that they would try to main them (or pick them up), but nothing has really came out of that claim. It has been this way for many months, but I feel that it is worth pointing that out right now.

 

[Rizen]

The comparison to wasn't too common if I recall correctly (and if it was drawn, it was often lambasted), but the comparisons to were definitely made and more abundant. Linear swordies that were simple to pick up as both a main or a pocket, had multiple buttons whose numbers were generally overtuned, and a recovery that wasn't bad, but could definitely be exploited in some ways.

For a while, it did look like they were about to be picked up as much as Smash 4 Cloud was, evident by how rapidly their OrionStats results climbed last year (which I'm pretty sure went from somewhere in the 40s to #5). But for now, it looks like that climb has stagnated to some degree.

The comparison to Bayo wasn't meant to be taken literally that Aegis plays like Bayo but rather they filled the same space in the meta: an overpowered DLC character who's #1 and dominating the meta. And they have. If 3 Aegis in top 8 of a major (plus countless other tournament wins including solo wins) isn't dominating the meta IDK what is. It's an 'Aegis is to Ultimate as Bayo was to SSB4' kind of statement. Also keep in mind aegis was nerfed, although not significantly.
Now they've fallen off a little bit and people claim they're terrible. This is why we look at multiple tournaments in formats like Orion stats. Aegis have staying power. They're not going anywhere; I predict they will overtake Wolf in the next few months.

 

[Arthur97]

Almost no one is saying they're terrible. Just that they are not suffocating and detrimental, which they have not shown to be. Seems their saturation kinda peaked with that 3, and, as has been mentioned, only one of those was a solo main. One of them has even flipped the bill and had them moved to the secondary. They're hardly taking half the top spots or anything.

 

[Hydreigonfan01]

The comparison to Bayo wasn't meant to be taken literally that Aegis plays like Bayo but rather they filled the same space in the meta: an overpowered DLC character who's #1 and dominating the meta. And they have. If 3 Aegis in top 8 of a major (plus countless other tournament wins including solo wins) isn't dominating the meta IDK what is. It's an 'Aegis is to Ultimate as Bayo was to SSB4' kind of statement. Also keep in mind aegis was nerfed, although not significantly.

Okay but they haven't been as dominant as Bayonetta ever was. Back at the end of the PGRv5, Bayonetta hit about 13.15% usage. In comparison Brawl MK hit 15%, Aegis have only hit 4-5% at most. It's not even comparable. Bayonetta was more then dominant, she was an overwhelming force.

Even at the SWT Championships, there was some caveats to the results of Aegis that showed it probably wouldn't end up continuing like this in the first place. MkLeo and Sparg0 were already #1 and #2 in the world so it's not a surprise they were doing well, and Cosmos was playing incredibly well and had really levelled up his Pyra/Mythra from before. This is coming from someone who still believes Pyra/Mythra are #1 or #2 alongside btw.

Something that I noticed is that, even back when Aegis was talked about in a frightening tone a few months ago, there are actually barely any players who actually solo main the character, or at the very least, there are barely any players who solo main the character and achieve any notable success in high level tournaments.

The main one, of course, is Cosmos.

However outside of him, it is hard to find someone who solo mains the character, let alone achieve a high level of success with them. Even back when Sparg0 had Aegis as a primary focus, he still used Cloud a lot in bracket, and it is now his primary character. Shuton plays Aegis a lot, but he is still primarily an Olimar player. MkLeo focuses heavily in Byleth, mainly bringing Aegis out for specific player/character matchups.

Even outside the primary bunch I mentioned here, the other notable Aegis players that I know at the top of my head, such as Blacktwins, DM, and Frozen, still play their other characters a considerable amount as well (Pichu, Pikachu, and Palutena, respectively).


Another thing I noticed is that there is a surprisingly little amount of Aegis in Japan. Outside of Shuton, who doesn't even solo main the character, I don't really know anyone else there that mains the character. I know that Kome and Proto said that they would try to main them (or pick them up), but nothing has really came out of that claim. It has been this way for many months, but I feel that it is worth pointing that out right now.

I don't really think this is any different from Smash 4 Cloud though. IIRC Mew2King was the only top solo , Leo also played and and Tweek also played and . Japan also only had Komorikiri who also co-mained and had and there was also Masashi, who was #90 on the PGR all time list, and 15th on the Japan Power Rankings, where as the others mentioned had more noticeable results. Which is personally why I don't really think "not having many solo mains" mean anything.

 

[Rizen]

Even at the SWT Championships, there was some caveats to the results of Aegis that showed it probably wouldn't end up continuing like this in the first place. MkLeo and Sparg0 were already #1 and #2 in the world so it's not a surprise they were doing well, and Cosmos was playing incredibly well and had really levelled up his Pyra/Mythra from before. This is coming from someone who still believes Pyra/Mythra are #1 or #2 alongside btw.

Think about Spargo and Cosmos before they picked up Aegis (and Cloud was buffed). Spargo was maybe a top 50 player, now he might be #1 and Cosmos had no where near the results he has now. They both got a huge boost from playing better characters.

2 Aegis have been in top 8 of a super major before if you include secondaries as Leo played them one set. Top 8 is also an arbitrary number. If you include top 9 then 2 Aegis have been in the top another time as Cosmos got 9th at one of the tournaments.

Seriously, they have so many results I've lost track. Why shouldn't the trend continue like it has since Aegis was released?

Okay but they haven't been as dominant as Bayonetta ever was. Back at the end of the PGRv5, Bayonetta hit about 13.15% usage. In comparison Brawl MK hit 15%, Aegis have only hit 4-5% at most. It's not even comparable. Bayonetta was more then dominant, she was an overwhelming force.

Again they don't have to be exactly like Bayo to be Ultimate's version of her. Like I said in an earlier post, ROB and Roy are more popular but in pretty much every major tourney Aegis outplaced them, when their mains showed up. And there's still time in Ultimate's lifespan for them to grow. Aegis has only been out a year.

 

[Hydreigonfan01]

Think about Spargo and Cosmos before they picked up Aegis (and Cloud was buffed). Spargo was maybe a top 50 player, now he might be #1 and Cosmos had no where near the results he has now. They both got a huge boost from playing better characters.

This is missing context on how hard Sparg0 grinded during quarantine though and just how much that helped him. He grinded online tournaments for a year and a half. He did another 2 months of grinding online tournaments after SWT. That is the main reason I'd say he's improved so hard, Aegis may have helped a bit, but it's absolutely not anywhere close to the big reason considering he's doing better with Cloud currently then he was with Aegis last year, despite Cloud being a worse character.

As for Cosmos, he was already top 10 at the end of Smash 4's lifespan with and was #11 on the first season of Ultimate's PGR with . Cosmos was already good before hand.

 

[Rizen]

This is missing context on how hard Sparg0 grinded during quarantine though and just how much that helped him. He grinded online tournaments for a year and a half. He did another 2 months of grinding online tournaments after SWT. That is the main reason I'd say he's improved so hard, Aegis may have helped a bit, but it's absolutely not anywhere close to the big reason considering he's doing better with Cloud currently then he was with Aegis last year, despite Cloud being a worse character.

As for Cosmos, he was already top 10 at the end of Smash 4's lifespan with and was #11 on the first season of Ultimate's PGR with . Cosmos was already good before hand.

Yeah he grinded WITH AEGIS (and like I said, Cloud got buffed into top tier). He won tournaments WITH AEGIS during quarentine. You can't deny Aegis have vastly improved both Cosmos and Spargo's results. What tournaments did Cosmos win before Aegis?

PS yes grinding helped too.

 

[NairWizard]

I don't really think this is any different from Smash 4 Cloud though. IIRC Mew2King was the only top solo , Leo also played and and Tweek also played and . Japan also only had Komorikiri who also co-mained and had and there was also Masashi, who was #90 on the PGR all time list, and 15th on the Japan Power Rankings, where as the others mentioned had more noticeable results. Which is personally why I don't really think "not having many solo mains" mean anything.

Huge +1 to this.

And for what it's worth, despite my apparent 180 on Aegis (which isn't really a 180 at all), I still think the comparison to S4 Cloud is valid. Leo himself makes that comparison sometimes. He mentioned in a recent interview (this weekend) that the reason he wants to play less Aegis is because they remind him of S4 Cloud in that they theoretically win a lot of matchups but you need to grind hard to see that pan out at top level. He used to go other characters like Marth instead of Cloud in matchups that Cloud should have done fine in because it was hard to win if you weren't well-versed in the matchup.

 

[toonito]

IMO was never as overbearing as was to the meta; it was the potential she had of becoming that had the community up in arms. By the time EVO 2017 happened Ultimate had been announced and everyone stopped caring about Smash 4 at that point.

/ wasn't seriously compared to ; it was (formidable easier to use swordie) that people thought would take hold. There's still time for that to happen but as of now its not gloom and doom.

 

[The_Bookworm]

Yeah he grinded WITH AEGIS (and like I said, Cloud got buffed into top tier). He won tournaments WITH AEGIS during quarentine. You can't deny Aegis have vastly improved both Cosmos and Spargo's results. What tournaments did Cosmos win before Aegis?

PS yes grinding helped too.

Sparg0 mainly played Cloud throughout the quarantine era. His Aegis only really showed up after quarantine ended.
Also, the Cloud buffs happened long before Aegis was even added to the game (the Cloud buffs happened at patch 7.0, which was when Byleth was added).

The argument isn't that Aegis is not a top character. Everyone knows that they are, and accepts that they are potentially #1 in the game right now. The argument is that they are not the metagame dominant character that people thought they would potentially be when SWT happened.

They could still be in the future, as we cannot see the future, but current metagame trends are telling us no right now.

IMO was never as overbearing as was to the meta; it was the potential she had of becoming that had the community up in arms. By the time EVO 2017 happened Ultimate had been announced and everyone stopped caring about Smash 4 at that point.

Ultimate was announced at early 2018, but outside of that, you are entirely correct. Also didn't help that the best player in the world retired early on at 2018, and a large SSB4-centered world circuit that was supposed to be the successor 2GG Championship Series didn't really come into fruition.

SSB4 Bayo was pretty much the equivalent to USF4 Elena. Both Bayo and Elena are nowhere near the nonsense and dominance of the vanilla versions of other characters (Rosa, Diddy, Sheik; Sagat, Akuma, Seth), and they are both nerfed from their own vanilla selves, but the nerfs to other top tiers, combined with their rather degenerate playstyle (in Bayo's case: seemingly random death combos; in Elena's case: healing), definitely escalated their notoriety higher than it probably deserves. Post-patch Bayo wasn't even considered the best character until over a year after her nerfs.


But on topic with , I don't think anyone in Ultimate has quite the nonsense of any of SSB4's top tiers.
In that game, you individual moves like Mewtwo's down tilt or Corrin's Dragon Lunge that controlled the neutral game by themselves.
You had Fox, who add the forward air -> footsool that could randomly win him the game at any percent.
You had Sheik, who won neutral by simply existing.
You had Rosalina, who pressing jab at the ledge invalidated entire characters.
You had ladder combos that could KO opponents at absurdly early percents at seemingly random instances, with ZSS, Bayo, and Mario being notorious abusers of that.

It is not saying that Ultimate top tiers aren't filled with nonsense themselves, but it isn't SSB4 top tier nonsense.
granted that SSB4 as a game is filled to the brim with nonsense lmao

 

[Rizen]

Sparg0 mainly played Cloud throughout the quarantine era. His Aegis only really showed up after quarantine ended.

Add getting 2nd in Proving Grounds with partial Pyra/Mythra to the growing list of their accomplishments in this short time. Tell me if I missed any. So far we've got MKLeo getting 2nd at the Mexican Regional Qualifiers with partial PM and first going all them for frame perfect series. Spargo going full PM to win a Juice box, partial PM to win another and Collision and Shuton using mostly them to get 5th at the Japan online qualifier. They also have reps in Void and Cosmos, who I've yet to see enter a tournament with them.

(PM=Pyra/Mythra) Those Juice boxes were during the quarantine and Collision might have been too. It's hard to remember.

OT
BTW I get heated in debate but want to say I really respect you guys in this thread.

 

[F4lcoMain]

But on topic with , I don't think anyone in Ultimate has quite the nonsense of any of SSB4's top tiers.
In that game, you individual moves like Mewtwo's down tilt or Corrin's Dragon Lunge that controlled the neutral game by themselves.
You had Fox, who add the forward air -> footsool that could randomly win him the game at any percent.
You had Sheik, who won neutral by simply existing.
You had Rosalina, who pressing jab at the ledge invalidated entire characters.
You had ladder combos that could KO opponents at absurdly early percents at seemingly random instances, with ZSS, Bayo, and Mario being notorious abusers of that.

It is not saying that Ultimate top tiers aren't filled with nonsense themselves, but it isn't SSB4 top tier nonsense.
granted that SSB4 as a game is filled to the brim with nonsense lmao

I'd argue the opposite tbh. Almost every characteer in this game has drastically way more nonsense than any SSB4 character. Being able to use tilts out of dash, most characters having drastically less landing lag than their SSB4 counterparts, a lot of moves having noticably less endlag, etc. However, the margin of error for each character is also higher as a result of every character's reward & safety being drastically improved, leading to all the nonsense being canceled out and the game being more balanced overall.

Consider the reason why Shiek was able to win neutral so easily back in SSB4. This is because she was ridiculously safe due to her Incredible Dash -> shield, strong 50/50s with stuff like down throw -> Up B and an incredibly safe approach due to her Fair (which had 10 frames of landing lag). However, in this, game, almost every character has access to some really powerful, high damaging combos and have much safer tools comparable to shieks Fair in SSB4 (pacman's fair comes to mind). They are also able to approach in a greater variety of ways due to instantly being able to use a tilt out of a dash and stuff like Dash-> shield isn't really as important in this game due to shields being nerfed. As a result, every character in the game has a way easier time approaching.

Also, I'm 90% sure most of things you brought up are still a thing in this game.

 

[The_Bookworm]

I'd argue the opposite tbh. Almost every characteer in this game has drastically way more nonsense than any SSB4 character. Being able to use tilts out of dash, most characters having drastically less landing lag than their SSB4 counterparts, a lot of moves having noticably less endlag, etc. However, the margin of error for each character is also higher as a result of every character's reward & safety being drastically improved, leading to all the nonsense being canceled out and the game being more balanced overall.

Good points here, but I think it is also important to know the context.
The new nonsense given to Ultimate is nearly universal across the cast. A lot of SSB4's nonsense stems from the fact that the vast majority of the cast lacks the universal nonsense options to deal or match with some of the absurd tools/traits individual characters have. Sheik's neutral dominance, as you already mentioned, is one of the biggest culprits of this. This applies with all the earlier Smash titles, especially Brawl.

Also, I'm 90% sure most of things you brought up are still a thing in this game.

Mewtwo down tilt or Corrin Dragon Lunge doesn't control neutral the same way they did in SSB4, due to nerfs both moves have received (mainly to endlag). They are still pretty good moves, but in SSB4, both of them controlled neutral by themselves. It is hard to find individual moves in Ultimate where it controlled neutral completely by themselves. I also doubt both moves would hold up the same with the added universal stuff added in Ultimate.

Fox forward air -> footstool doesn't really work in this game due to changes to forward air's hitbox properties to make it connect better. No one in Ultimate doesn't have anywhere close to this. SSB4 Luigi Cyclone gimps are also similar to this, and no in Ultimate doesn't really have access to this either.

Sheik still is a very neutral dominant character, but not nearly to the same extent due to the reasons you already mentioned.

Rosalina jab pressure at the ledge got heavily nerfed going into Ultimate, thanks to Luma not moving forward as much and the nerfs to jab 3's knockback. Jab pressure at ledge still technically exists, it is nowhere close to the level of oppressiveness it was in SSB4. This + walling with side B and neutral air, invalidated entire matchups. While there are characters that are very hard to deal with at the ledge, no one in Ultimate does with such ease and with level of oppressiveness than SSB4 Rosalina.

Finally, while ladder combos still technically exist in Ultimate, they are far less frequent and practical than in SSB4, whether it is through direct nerfs to the method, indirect nerfs thanks to mechanic changes (higher ceilings, nerfs to Rage, etc.), or both.

 

[Sucumbio]

EDGETRAPPING TIER LIST

Order in tiers is kinda ordered but not CRAZY ordered

Sora was hard for me idk pic.twitter.com/jyOVn6wqPn

— ESAM (@imESAM) March 22, 2022

ESAM just cranking these out lol. Edge trapping tier list.

 

[Hydreigonfan01]

EDGETRAPPING TIER LIST

Order in tiers is kinda ordered but not CRAZY ordered

Sora was hard for me idk pic.twitter.com/jyOVn6wqPn

— ESAM (@imESAM) March 22, 2022

ESAM just cranking these out lol. Edge trapping tier list.

He had a typo, it's ledge trapping specifically.

 

[Arthur97]

Huh, would have expected Pyra to be higher since people say she's so good at it.

 

[Hydreigonfan01]

New OrionStats update

OrionStats Character Update; late March. Samus seems to seriously be retaining her position while Roy edges further away into a clearer 1st. Robin goes from the low 60s to 50th, and ZSS finally has a solid week, boosting her to 46th. pic.twitter.com/fFeWsfFilW

— Barnard's Loop (@LoopBarnard) March 23, 2022

 

[Idon]

New OrionStats update

OrionStats Character Update; late March. Samus seems to seriously be retaining her position while Roy edges further away into a clearer 1st. Robin goes from the low 60s to 50th, and ZSS finally has a solid week, boosting her to 46th. pic.twitter.com/fFeWsfFilW

— Barnard's Loop (@LoopBarnard) March 23, 2022

What a world we live in to see Samus so completely blow her Zero Suit counterpart out of the water in terms of usage. Definitely would not have imagined this happening in the Smash 4 days.

 

[StrangeKitten]

EDGETRAPPING TIER LIST

Order in tiers is kinda ordered but not CRAZY ordered

Sora was hard for me idk pic.twitter.com/jyOVn6wqPn

— ESAM (@imESAM) March 22, 2022

ESAM just cranking these out lol. Edge trapping tier list.

Surprised to see K Rool so low. Blunderbuss suck, down tilt, ftilt, nair (the latter two have belly armor), imo he's quite solid.

 

[Frihetsanka]

What a world we live in to see Samus so completely blow her Zero Suit counterpart out of the water in terms of usage. Definitely would not have imagined this happening in the Smash 4 days.

And even then, Zero Suit Samus is still the better character. She's a strange character though (in my opinion), and Samus might have a more appealing playstyle for many players.

Corrin at #35 is not something I expected would happen 6 months ago. If MkLeo keeps using her a secondary we could see her climbing up to top 40 maybe. MkLeo (and some other players) managed to get Byleth to #31, and I think Byleth and Corrin are probably similar viability-wise (lower end of high tier).

Mewtwo at the bottom feels weird. I wish they had buffed him a bit more, he feels close to upper-high tier with a few buffs, but sadly he didn't quite receive the buffs he needed. I'm a bit surprised Toon Link is at #70, I thought he was doing decently in Japan? What's up with that?

 

[KirbySquad101]

Here's a little something new that peeps can sink their teeth into (most notably Sora enthusiasts):

Maister ended up partially going Sora at an offline weekly! Most notably, he defeated NAir's in a 3-2 set:

I definitely want to analyze and comment on this later, cause there's a LOT here to talk about. And from the sounds of it, Maister seems pretty serious on wanting to make the Sora work, whether as a secondary or even a potential co-main.

 

[Hydreigonfan01]

Atomsk discusses Roy potentially being the best character in the game

There was a problem fetching the tweet

 

[F4lcoMain]

Atomsk discusses Roy potentially being the best character in the game

There was a problem fetching the tweet

Well, the results sorta back it up, so I wouldn't be surprised if he was.

 

[superjm]

Roy kinda shows shades of to me where they COULD be considered the best character in the game if you think about it hard enough but have to deal with glaring issues with their disadvantage and recovery, as well as having a somewhat linear, if extremely potent and effective, gameplan. I can certainly see it, but then considering his direct competition for that spot it's hard to justify right now.

Incidentally, he may also end up like in that the most optimal and efficient way to win with him might also be the most "boring" and flowchart-oriented way. In the back of my mind I fear for the day that Roy gets his own Wizzrobe piloting him.

 

[Gleam]

When someone asks "Is said character the best" you kind of have to ask yourself, what you're defining as "the best." A character's results and meta isn't defined by who has won tournaments and who hasn't, it's an entire system built around different points that come together. Right now, however Orion's point system works, the accumulation of all of Roy's meta is currently #1, with the most points to it.

Roy right now, effectively has gotten the accumulative best out of the meta. Meaning that, individually, he may not be the best. He may not be the most popular character, he may not be the easiest character to use, he may not have the most tournament wins, he may not be #1 in nationals, majors or even regional.

But when everything comes together, all the results, all the tournaments, all the data of these regional, majors and nationals. When you take into consideration the effects of popularity and accessibility of the character. Roy has gotten the best of it and the way I see it. It's like a contestant in a sport being graded by judges, such as the cliche 3 judges holding up a card.

One contestant may get a score of 5/5/10 for a total of 20

Another contestant, let's say Roy, may get a score of 8/8/8 for a total of 24

The first contestant got a higher score (or say placement) of 10 but the second contestant's overall score was better. It's like I said, a character's meta isn't defined by, who won a tournament and who hasn't. So it kind of depends on the intention of what you mean by asking "is Roy the best?" but right now, Roy has gotten "the most" out of the current meta. Whatever kind of system Orion and everyone else is using, Roy is surely getting the most out of it.

 

[Frihetsanka]

By this logic, would you have argued that ROB was the best when he was #1 on OrionStats for quite some time? And Joker/Wolf before?

2019. Roy down at #19, Joker and Wolf at the top.

2020, ROB #1, Wolf #2, Joker down to #5, Roy is at #12.

2021, ROB still #1, Roy up to #2 now, Wolf #4, Joker down to #7.

And the most recent one, the only one where Roy is #1.

I suspect that if Nairo hadn't been banned and he'd still play Palutena, then Palutena would be #1. Over the course of the game, she's been a much more consistent top tier than Roy has. Granted, the meta is shifting a bit due to DLC, and it's plausible that Roy does better in the new meta than Palutena does. Even then Palutena has been around #2 or #3 for most of Ultimate, on OrionStats.

Wolf is also a character that has been very consistent on OrionStats. ROB, too. We could keep in mind that many of these characters have been nerfed,

Personally, I think the #1 position likely stands between Pyra/Mythra, Joker, Palutena, or Wolf, likely one of the first two. You could make a case for Pikachu as well, I suppose, although it is strange that ESAM is so adamant that Pikachu is #1. Generally it seems to me that top tier mains tend to downplay their character and mid tier and some high tier mains overrate their character. Joker mains don't seem to claim that he's #1, neither do Palutena mains, or Wolf mains, or Pyra/Mythra mains, from what I've seen. Pikachu mains (or well, ESAM?) claiming that he's #1 seems a bit strange? Or maybe they're just correct and doubters don't know what they're talking about, I don't really know. Smash 4 Bayonetta mains were quite willing to admit that their character was #1 (though Smash 4 Bayonetta was clearly #1, Ultimate has no obvious #1 right now).

I talked a bit with a Roy main about the possibility of Roy being #1 and he did not believe it for a second.

Something to keep in mind: From what I've gathered, it took quite some time before Melee Fox started getting the #1 results, yet he was still the #1 character in that game. I think if people in 2020 had said that ROB is #1 because he's #1 on OrionStats then they would've been wrong, and I don't think Roy is #1 in this game either. I could be wrong though, the character is clearly very good, but #1? Something to keep in mind is that great players can carry characters too, like Dabuz with Rosalina & Luma (no one thinks they're top 10, yet Dabuz is getting some sick results with them, although he also uses Olimar). I mean, if MkLeo went solo Byleth he'd still get great results (although probably worse than now since she has some pretty bad matchups and if he can't play a secondary it's going to be harder for him to win vs her bad MUs).

 

[The_Bookworm]

You could make a case for Pikachu as well, I suppose, although it is strange that ESAM is so adamant that Pikachu is #1. Generally it seems to me that top tier mains tend to downplay their character and mid tier and some high tier mains overrate their character. Joker mains don't seem to claim that he's #1, neither do Palutena mains, or Wolf mains, or Pyra/Mythra mains, from what I've seen. Pikachu mains (or well, ESAM?) claiming that he's #1 seems a bit strange? Or maybe they're just correct and doubters don't know what they're talking about, I don't really know.

To be fair, ESAM has been in the Pika busted train since the beginning of time. XD
For example, he put Pika as the 5th best character in his final SSB4 tier list, and he put Pika in Brawl at around 4th.

 

[Hydreigonfan01]

1 AM tier list, i made one 2 months ago and switched like 5 spots im posting it at night so less ppl see it

pls do not bully i am only a puff player also its 100% ordered pic.twitter.com/hau2Zif7Vt

— BassMage (@BassMage) March 28, 2022

BassMage's tier list