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Official Competitive Character Impressions 2.0

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  • Total voters
    588

Frihetsanka

Smash Champion
Joined
Apr 26, 2016
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Location
Sweden
Some things that stand out: Steve #10, Samus #24, Luigi #26, Min Min #36, Corrin bottom 17 (with Min Min lower than expected and the others higher than expected). Overall he seems to be playing it fairly safe though.

Pac-Man #6 is somewhat noteworthy as well, I suppose, as is Sonic #9 (though I could definitely see Sonic being that good).
 

Arthur97

Smash Master
Joined
Jun 7, 2016
Messages
3,463
As for downplaying top ties, it could be multiple factors. Namely, knowing that fighter's weaknesses better than most. They play them a lot, and they know what happens when those weaknesses are exploited, plus they experience the highs and lows rather than seeing mostly the VODs and Twitter clips to show how good they are. May also include a social aspect of not wanting to be seen as carried so they insist their mains are worse than they are. Or at least worse than they are perceived.
 

Gleam

Smash Ace
Joined
Apr 7, 2008
Messages
654
Location
Burlington, NC
25th in Kaigairbi#6.
33rd in Glitch:Infinite
9th in Glory 2.0
13th in VCA 2022
7th in St. Valentin Edition, Wanted S4 C3.
Typical Top 40s of Orion on a consistent basis.


Oh don't mind me people, I'm just listing off some of the, I don't know, common reasons why :ultridley:has consistently gotten what most would deem to be, at the least, Mid Tier" level of placements and results of which have been rather consistent since the game's inception. Now I'm sure you all see it, but we've got a problem here my friends.

You see, this punk a** dragon, with his massive, easily combed lanky body and inability to (insert whatever else is wrong with the character here) somehow has the god forsaken nerve, to get...those kind of results. This (checks BossMage's list) Bottom 10, mom killing, puke eating, mistake of the Metroid, much less Smash franchise doesn't seem to realize his stinkin' place in this meta.

Now I don't wish to speak for everyone here, but I will...cause I'm right. We can't let this barf inducing failure of a character believe he's anything less than the blunt end of a crack pipe piece of garbage he's always been.

My friends. My fellow players. I beseech upon thee, this notion of urgency. We are letting "BAD" characters, get good results. Not long ago, there was a...ahem...:ultdk: in 25th...in Glitch:Infinite. Yes, I too believed that this was proof that God was dead. But worry not, for I have not lost hope yet. I believe, if we put in the effort, if we put in the time, we fix this mistake. I want you all to remember a verse of our holy Smash Book.

"Thou who pray to the lowly tiers, will sunder only to the falsehood of the meta.
Decline the treachery of wicked Lows and False Prophets of Mid.
Leting only thy mind pledge loyalty to the true Tops, blessed by thy electric golden touch."
-Esamuale 14:26

Amen my friends, and let's work to fix this unholy mistake.

Seriously, are you people even playing the same flippin' game?
 
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Gleam

Smash Ace
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Apr 7, 2008
Messages
654
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Burlington, NC
Now, double post aside, let me get back to Roy.

What :ultroy: (and what I'd call the same for :ultpalutena::ultrob: and the other Top 5 or 10 so characters of Orion) is...

is "malleable."

Roy is a character who has the very lucky luxury, to effectively exemplify the three most important things when it comes to a character's results. The first is that, he just gets good placements. The second is his popularity, he's used more and more and that increases his placements. Lastly, he's accessible, he's one of the easiest characters to use which of course increases popularity and thus increases placements.

Is Roy the best character in the game?

Roy has been rewarded the most out of the current meta. His overall placements has netted him the Top placement of Orion. His popularity and accessibility has done nothing but improved those placements. His malleability as a character has allowed him to place not only consistently in the Top 16, Top 8 and Top 4, but the Top 24s, 32s and 49s as well.

To say Roy is the "best" leaves too much uncertain.

But to say Roy is "one of the best", in the current meta?

Heck Yes.
 

Frihetsanka

Smash Champion
Joined
Apr 26, 2016
Messages
2,252
Location
Sweden
I've been watching a decent amount of Ridley games lately and I think mid tier seems decently plausible for him.

Something we should keep in mind is how long a character has been around. Any DLC, especially Fighter Pack 2, would mean that players would have to drop their previous mains in order to play this character. This means that many DLC will have fewer players than if they were release character. Furthermore, characters brand new to Ultimate is in a similar-ish situation, where players would have to drop their previous mains in order to pick up the new character.

Roy? Roy was available in Smash 4. Goblin was a Smash 4 Roy main, and surely him playing Roy in Smash 4 probably increased his chances of playing Roy in Ultimate as well. We see this especially with Ness and Samus, where many of the mains also mained those characters in previous games. Even characters that were in Brawl and weren't in Smash 4 has some aspects of this, such as MVD with his Snake. If we look at the top 20 of OrionStats, we noticed this tendency quite a bit. Roy, ROB, Samus, Ness, Wolf, Snake, Cloud, Fox, Lucina, Captain Falcon, Sonic, Peach, Wario, and Luigi are all Smash veterans. Pokémon Trainer is too but Brawl PT was pretty bad so I doubt that played much of a role, ditto with Palutena in Smash 4. And while Young Link was in Melee, I doubt that mattered too much (how many Ultimate top players are Melee veterans, really?).

Interestingly enough, the only newcomers in top 20 are DLC: Joker, Pyra/Mythra, and Steve. Joker and Pyra/Mythra are wildly considered top 3, so it's not too surprising that people would be willing to drop their previous mains. From what I've seen, many Steve players seem to be fairly new players (not Smash 4/Brawl veterans) that managed to make a name for themselves with a unique character.

The highest rated Ultimate non-DLC newcomer is Ken at #29, and he's an echo of Ryu, a Smash 4 veteran. Then there is Inkling at #32, a character that used to be considered top tier by most people (sometimes even considered #1 in the game during the early meta, with some really good players like Cosmos and Space). Chrom at #42, echo of Roy. Ridley at #42, interestingly enough. Ultimate newcomers seem to be fighting an uphill battle, while Smash 4 and Brawl veterans have somewhat of an edge. I don't think Ness and Samus would do nearly as well if they were Ultimate DLC characters. I think Roy would be doing worse, as well.
 

F4lcoMain

Smash Cadet
Joined
Jan 1, 2022
Messages
55
I've been watching a decent amount of Ridley games lately and I think mid tier seems decently plausible for him.

Something we should keep in mind is how long a character has been around. Any DLC, especially Fighter Pack 2, would mean that players would have to drop their previous mains in order to play this character. This means that many DLC will have fewer players than if they were release character. Furthermore, characters brand new to Ultimate is in a similar-ish situation, where players would have to drop their previous mains in order to pick up the new character.

Roy? Roy was available in Smash 4. Goblin was a Smash 4 Roy main, and surely him playing Roy in Smash 4 probably increased his chances of playing Roy in Ultimate as well. We see this especially with Ness and Samus, where many of the mains also mained those characters in previous games. Even characters that were in Brawl and weren't in Smash 4 has some aspects of this, such as MVD with his Snake. If we look at the top 20 of OrionStats, we noticed this tendency quite a bit. Roy, ROB, Samus, Ness, Wolf, Snake, Cloud, Fox, Lucina, Captain Falcon, Sonic, Peach, Wario, and Luigi are all Smash veterans. Pokémon Trainer is too but Brawl PT was pretty bad so I doubt that played much of a role, ditto with Palutena in Smash 4. And while Young Link was in Melee, I doubt that mattered too much (how many Ultimate top players are Melee veterans, really?).

Interestingly enough, the only newcomers in top 20 are DLC: Joker, Pyra/Mythra, and Steve. Joker and Pyra/Mythra are wildly considered top 3, so it's not too surprising that people would be willing to drop their previous mains. From what I've seen, many Steve players seem to be fairly new players (not Smash 4/Brawl veterans) that managed to make a name for themselves with a unique character.

The highest rated Ultimate non-DLC newcomer is Ken at #29, and he's an echo of Ryu, a Smash 4 veteran. Then there is Inkling at #32, a character that used to be considered top tier by most people (sometimes even considered #1 in the game during the early meta, with some really good players like Cosmos and Space). Chrom at #42, echo of Roy. Ridley at #42, interestingly enough. Ultimate newcomers seem to be fighting an uphill battle, while Smash 4 and Brawl veterans have somewhat of an edge. I don't think Ness and Samus would do nearly as well if they were Ultimate DLC characters. I think Roy would be doing worse, as well.
As a Smash 4 Roy main, I dropped him since the changes to his throws and Up B made him feel way too different in this game. His old F-Throw felt so nice since it sent at the perfect angle for Nair follow-ups and tech chases, and Up B OOS was imo one of his best moves since it punished the opponent's aggression and killed, esp w/ Rage. Also, it seems like some of his old 50/50s or combos like Rage Jab -> Up Smash aren't as good in this game, though I haven't really tested this myself (and I'd be lying if I said Roy's Jab wasn't largely better in this game due to the angle change). Combined with the landing lag reduction, knockback changes on most of his moves, his previously terrible initial dash being largely fixed, and punishing OOS being harder, and he feels and plays like a completely different character from SSB4 despite largely being the same.

Also I agree that Ridley is pretty solid.
 

The_Bookworm

Smash Master
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Messages
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The highest rated Ultimate non-DLC newcomer is Ken at #29, and he's an echo of Ryu, a Smash 4 veteran. Then there is Inkling at #32, a character that used to be considered top tier by most people (sometimes even considered #1 in the game during the early meta, with some really good players like Cosmos and Space). Chrom at #42, echo of Roy. Ridley at #42, interestingly enough. Ultimate newcomers seem to be fighting an uphill battle, while Smash 4 and Brawl veterans have somewhat of an edge. I don't think Ness and Samus would do nearly as well if they were Ultimate DLC characters. I think Roy would be doing worse, as well.
It certainty doesn't help that the vast majority of the non-echo base roster newcomers were very bad at launch, and still in the lower half of the roster to this day. The Belmonts later joined said newcomers down the line as the meta progressed. The first DLC character being Piranha Plant certainty didn't help (it was awful at launch and still low tier today).

Unless you were dead set on maining said newcomer, they were fairly uninviting to pick-up and main.
 

Hydreigonfan01

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Messages
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BTW new Tweek Talks and it's an interview with Leo. He talks about his thoughts about :ultbyleth:, :ultcorrinf: and :ultjoker: here in case you're curious.
 
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Hydreigonfan01

Smash Master
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Messages
4,676
Pools for RETA 2022

Seeding for RETA 2022

1. MkLeo :ultbyleth::ultmythra:
2. Sparg0 :ultcloud: :ultmythra:
3. Maister :ultgnw:
4. Chag :ultpalutena:
5. Glutonny :ultwario:
6. Goblin :ultroy:
7. Larry Lurr :ultfalco::ultwolf:
8. Yei :ultmetaknight: :ultchrom: :ultpalutena:
9. Cloudy :ultmythra: :ultsephiroth:
10. Meme :ultyoshi:
11. BigBoss :ultrob:
12. Skyjay :ultincineroar:
13. AlanDiss :ultsnake:
14. WaKa :ultluigi:
15. Javi :ultlucina: :ultwolf: :ultcloud:
16. Andrik :ultfalcon:
17. Bonilla :ultroy:
18. Lizz β :ultwiifittrainer:
19. Elvis :ultchrom:
20. Rox :ultsheik:

Edit: Upsets for RETA 2022 Round Robin Pools so far

AlanDiss :ultsnake: 3-0 Glutonny :ultwario:
WaKa :ultluigi: 3-1 Goblin :ultroy:
 
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Hydreigonfan01

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Results for Sumabato SP 25

1. KEN :ultsephiroth: :ultsonic:
2. Shuton :ultmythra: :ultolimar:
3. DIO :ultsnake:
4. Nietono :ultpichu: :ultmythra:
5. Luminous :ultjoker: :ultmythra: :ultpokemontrainer:
5. Yaura :ultsamus: :ultdarksamus:
7. Jogibu :ultfalcon:
7. Taikei :ultsonic:
9. takera :ultken:
9. kept :ultvillager: :ultdiddy:
9. Lunamado :ultbowser::ultdarkpit: :ultrosalina:
9. Raito :ultduckhunt:
13. Asimo :ultryu:
13. Bino :ultken:
13. alice :ultroy:
13. Iba :ultzss:
17. Kaeru :ultgnw:
17. Rizeasu :ultbrawler: :ultmarth: :ultbyleth: :ultsephiroth:
17. Injelly :ultwiifittrainer: :ultbrawler: :ultyounglink:
17. Rarukun :ultluigi:
17. Kome :ultshulk:
17. Sylph :ultsheik:
17. Mao :ultroy:
17. Tsubotsubo :ultolimar: :ultjoker:


Couple of things I noticed:
  • KEN might honestly be the best Sephiroth in the world over Ned, he's done really well at locals with the character and won a super regional over a top 10 player.
  • Secondary Aegis is slowly becoming a thing in Japan? Nietono and Luminous used them as secondaries and managed to get top 8, while Shuton got 2nd using them as a main. Either way, a lot of DLC so far.
  • Japan is still full of character diversity though. :ultmythra: has the most appearances in top 24 at 3, while :ultroy: , :ultolimar:, :ultsephiroth:, :ultjoker: and :ultbrawler: tie at 2. That means there's still a bunch of characters getting results.
  • Atelier is continuing recent underperformances by getting 33rd and Kome got 17th. So far this has not been their year.
  • DIO did really well. Snake is doing just fine in the meta atm with AlanDiss upsetting Glutonny at RETA, MVD's performances throughout 2021-2022 and now DIO beating Shuton in winners to make top 3.
  • Surprisingly little Wolf or Palutena.
 
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Linkmain-maybe

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BTW has Akakikusu been in any tourneys lately? Really itching to study his Hero since the newest VODS I can find are like 4 months old.
 

The_Bookworm

Smash Master
Joined
Jan 10, 2018
Messages
3,239
Delfino Plaza RETA 2, is a Mexican invitational that finished up RR pools. Tomorrow is actual bracket.


Winner's
MkLeo:ultbyleth::ultcorrinf: vs Larry Lurr:ultfalco::ultwolf:
Chag:ultpalutena: vs BigBoss:ultrob:
Sparg0:ultcloud: vs Andrik:ultfalcon:
Maister:ultgnw::ultsora: vs Glutonny:ultwario:


Loser's
Meme:ultyoshi::ultlucina: vs Cloudy:ultpyra::ultsephiroth:
WaKa:ultluigi: vs Skyjay:ultincineroar:
Yei:ultmetaknight::ultpalutena::ultlucina: vs Javi:ultroy::ultcloud:
AlanDiss:ultsnake: vs Goblin:ultroy:


Already eliminated
Rox:ultsheik:
Elvis:ultchrom:
Bonilla:ultroy:
Lizz B:ultwiifittrainer:


Leo's Corrin, Maister's Sora, and Larry's Wolf only won a single game throughout the pools. How much further those three (especially the former two) is going to use them further is fairly unclear.
 

Cheryl~

Smash Journeyman
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Messages
453
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Happy to see Lucas finally gaining solid rep that actually combines DJCZ combos with a rock solid neutral. I can't wait to see how Nitox grows as a player since he's already gotten way better ever since his first breakout when he beat Glutonny's pocket Marth.

Also nice to see Sephiroth popping up in results considering everyone seemed to have given up on thinking he could ever do anything notable. Certainly a character built for inconsistency, but that doesn't mean he can't pull out some crazy stuff with One Wing.

Another character I'm surprised to see still doing well is Snake. I think that character is really hot or cold, he either dominates a match or his horrible disadvantage gets called out and he's put into situations where it's impossible for him to land safely. His matchup spread, while pretty good, still has some notable issues like losing pretty hard to Palutena and Joker, and from what I've seen Aegis can be iffy for Snake too. I guess Snake's kit of amazing zoning/trapping tools paired with solid CQC is just well designed enough to keep the character afloat, as evidenced by the revival of his results over the past year.
 

StrangeKitten

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Battle Royal Dome
Happy to see Lucas finally gaining solid rep that actually combines DJCZ combos with a rock solid neutral. I can't wait to see how Nitox grows as a player since he's already gotten way better ever since his first breakout when he beat Glutonny's pocket Marth.

Also nice to see Sephiroth popping up in results considering everyone seemed to have given up on thinking he could ever do anything notable. Certainly a character built for inconsistency, but that doesn't mean he can't pull out some crazy stuff with One Wing.

Another character I'm surprised to see still doing well is Snake. I think that character is really hot or cold, he either dominates a match or his horrible disadvantage gets called out and he's put into situations where it's impossible for him to land safely. His matchup spread, while pretty good, still has some notable issues like losing pretty hard to Palutena and Joker, and from what I've seen Aegis can be iffy for Snake too. I guess Snake's kit of amazing zoning/trapping tools paired with solid CQC is just well designed enough to keep the character afloat, as evidenced by the revival of his results over the past year.
Snake never stopped being a solid (no pun intended) top tier. It's just that his best rep turned out to be a bad person and thus got banned. Additionally, Snake is taxing to play for long stretches. Probably one of the harder characters to play. But the great tools that make him a top tier never went anywhere.
 

The_Bookworm

Smash Master
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Messages
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RETA 2022

1st: MkLeo:ultcorrinf::ultbyleth:
2nd: Sparg0:ultcloud:
3rd: Glutonny:ultwario:
4th: Skyjay:ultincineroar:
5th: Goblin:ultroy:
5th: Chag:ultpalutena:
7th: BigBoss:ultrob:
7th: Cloudy:ultpyra:
9th: Larry Lurr:ultfalco::ultwolf:
9th: Yei:ultmetaknight::ultpalutena::ultlucina:
9th: Andrik:ultfalcon:
9th: Maister:ultgnw::ultsora:
13th: Meme:ultyoshi::ultlucina:
13th: WaKa:ultluigi:
13th: Javi:ultroy::ultcloud:
13th: AlanDiss:ultsnake:
17th: Rox:ultsheik:
17th: Elvis:ultchrom:
17th: Bonilla:ultroy:
17th: Lizz B:ultwiifittrainer:


This is a very interesting invitational overall. MkLeo only dropped one game this entire tournament, and it was the grands vs Sparg0. While I felt that Glutonny and Sparg0 played pretty sloppy vs the Corrin (at game 3 & 4 at grands, you can visibly tell that Sparg0 had enough), this is nevertheless a pretty good showing for the character.

Honestly, a lot players this event made quite a lot of crucial flubs throughout the entire event, especially towards the end of the tournament, flubs that would turn entire games and even sets completely around.
 
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Rizen

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I feel like MKLeo could potentially win any tournament with any high tier and up character if he put enough effort into them. Be it Ike, Byleth or Corrin, he can make them work. With that said, I do believe all three are high tier. He needs characters to be good enough and couldn't win with say Ganon.
 

Idon

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It's actually insane how it turns out that Marth of all characters seems to be the worst, or at least least used, of the entire FE cast considering his stellar showing in past games. Heck, MKLeo even used Chrom that one time and though he never picked up Roy, we definitely don't need him to show how good he is.
 

PK Gaming

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I still don't think Corrin is that great, but Mkleo is simply built different

It's actually insane how it turns out that Marth of all characters seems to be the worst, or at least least used, of the entire FE cast considering his stellar showing in past games. Heck, MKLeo even used Chrom that one time and though he never picked up Roy, we definitely don't need him to show how good he is.
It's because Marth is straight-up subpar in Ultimate

A lacking throw game made worse, they took out his jab setups, perfect pivoting is gone, and the faster-paced nature of Ultimate compared to Smash 4 makes it way more likely you'll hit dead on instead of a tipper. They also nerfed sourspot fmash (why?) and tipper Fair among other things. Not only does he play bad, he FEELS bad which is the biggest reason why playing him isn't enjoyable this time around imo
 

Idon

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Update on the major winners list

Sumabato SP 25 did not count as a major on OrionStats so atm InfinityCON is still Sephiroth's best result on this list.
Damn I'm surprised with Link joining them down there. I thought most tier lists ranked him around high tier or at least certainly better than some of the other top 8 placers. Or is it a case of other characters just having better options?
 

Hydreigonfan01

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Damn I'm surprised with Link joining them down there. I thought most tier lists ranked him around high tier or at least certainly better than some of the other top 8 placers. Or is it a case of other characters just having better options?
Blame T not attending stuff and their being no top level Link mains I know of aside from him.
 
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Diddy Kong

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Man surprised by the lack of Mario and Game and Watch mostly , Dr.Mario joining their ranks of all characters.

At the very least, I'll dare to state that all characters who won a major are serious candidates for Top Tier placements, yes that includes Byleth. Even if they'd be the exact last character ordered in Top Tier, MKLeo is consistent with Byleth, and always delivers, if Byleth was so horrible , counterplay would've been more successful by now.
 

Frihetsanka

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I don't think Byleth, Corrin, Olimar, or Sora from that list are strong candidates for top 15. I'm not really sure about Sora though, he's still a very new character so maybe his meta could develop more if he got a really strong player playing him.

I think Corrin is high tier. It's fun to see that Corrin has 4 fairly strong players now (SHADIC, MkLeo, Pink Fresh, Ly). SHADIC is the only main though (Ly might be considered a co-main alongside Byleth).
 

Hydreigonfan01

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I don't think Byleth, Corrin, Olimar, or Sora from that list are strong candidates for top 15. I'm not really sure about Sora though, he's still a very new character so maybe his meta could develop more if he got a really strong player playing him.

I think Corrin is high tier. It's fun to see that Corrin has 4 fairly strong players now (SHADIC, MkLeo, Pink Fresh, Ly). SHADIC is the only main though (Ly might be considered a co-main alongside Byleth).
This was absolutely your week huh? You got some good players to prove your mains were good in KEN and MkLeo.

Honestly though, I was on the Corrin and Sephiroth are high tier train a while ago, since Cosmos played the character online and SHADIC were doing well at offline events (Being top 3 at Texas) and with Sephiroth while my opinion did lower since his release, I was fairly positive on the character.
 

NairWizard

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I still don't think Corrin is that great, but Mkleo is simply built different
Corrin is the metagame's biggest badly kept secret. Corrin's had a bad reputation to the general playerbase for a while, but whenever you see a top player try our Corrin, you hear the same thoughts, "How can this character be bad? Seems good to me." Whether it's ESAM or Nairo or Zackray or Cosmos or Leo, top players seem to judge Corrin well by instinct alone. They frequently dismiss these gut reactions, though, when placing her on a tier list. Nairo will say, "Well, maybe it's just my experience with playing her in smash 4" or Zackray will say "but I haven't devoted much time to her, so maybe I'm wrong."

But imo they weren't wrong, and Corrin is really that good.

Corrin may look slow, but Corrin has great mobility tools in pinkicks and a fast dash-to-shield. How fast you can shield out of a dash in this game depends on your character; it takes Ganondorf 15 frames to shield after initiating a dash, while it takes Roy, ROB, and Palutena 10. It takes Corrin 7. She's tied with Sheik for fastest dash-to-shield in the game. Not typical for low-mobility characters.

This fast dash into shield couples well with an array of OOS options (three fast and big options in f-air/n-air/up-air, and two slower but stronger ones in up-smash and up-b), which means you have to second-guess yourself when weaving around grounded Corrin.

Corrin's jump stats are good. You generally want bigger full hops and smaller short hops, since bigger full hops let you get out of disadvantage faster and smaller short hops let you mix up your landing aerials better. Corrin has a full hop height of 33 and a short hop height of 16, much better than Ike's 29/16 and actually even better than Cloud's (32.5/17)! At RETA, we saw MKleo double jump out of the corner several times with Corrin against sparg0's Cloud. You would rarely see the same situation with Byleth.

Corrin has a much easier time landing than most, or basically all, sword characters, including the likes of Lucina (who has much better air mobility on paper) and Byleth. In addition to d-air and n-air, coverage that similar characters don't have, Corrin can b-air and fastfall on the first active frame of b-air, giving her horizontal and vertical landing burst in one.

Looking at Corrin's stats in this way, I'd actually suggest that Corrin's overall mobility is above average rather than subpar.

Then in advantage, Corrin has:
  • Some of the best ledgetrapping in the game, with kill confirms out of n-air, and pin mixups; d-smash will lethally catch neutral getup and can cover roll
  • Some of the best juggling in the game. Leo's said it himself: Corrin's up-air just wins games for you. It's so big that if you try to airdodge past it you can get b-aired for the stock, and it's one of the main reasons that Corrin is better than Byleth against Falco (Byleth's up-air can't juggle Falco nearly that well).
  • Some of the best and most consistent combos at all percents, with minimal execution barrier
  • A kill throw
All that really leaves is neutral normals, and the stats there speak for themselves. Corrin's up-air is -5 on shield, f-air is -4, and n-air is -7. Those are really good stats to boast on moves that are so big. b-air is -7/-8 too and is one of the safest aerials in the game thanks to the pushback. d-tilt being f5 just makes Corrin so easy to space with, and almost every spacing move leads to more guaranteed damage almost immediately.

It just ties so well together. You're contending in neutral with the likes of Diddy and Cloud and then juggling and ledgetrapping for 60+% and then kill confirming for the stock. If you mess up, you still have plenty of leeway in disadvantage. Seems very evident that Corrin should have some great matchups.
 

Frihetsanka

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This was absolutely your week huh? You got some good players to prove your mains were good in KEN and MkLeo.

Honestly though, I was on the Corrin and Sephiroth are high tier train a while ago, since Cosmos played the character online and SHADIC were doing well at offline events (Being top 3 at Texas) and with Sephiroth while my opinion did lower since his release, I was fairly positive on the character.
I think this shows some of the volatility of results. Imagine an alternative world where MkLeo were not playing Corrin, and SHADIC had dropped the game, and Ly focusing on Byleth. Would this make Corrin any worse? No, but the character would seem a lot worse due to a lack of results.

I never believed Sephiroth was mid tier. I used to believe he was top tier, although over time my opinion has waned a bit, and I now believe he's a high tier (and not necessarily that much better than Corrin or Byleth).
 

F4lcoMain

Smash Cadet
Joined
Jan 1, 2022
Messages
55
I still don't think Corrin is that great, but Mkleo is simply built different



It's because Marth is straight-up subpar in Ultimate

A lacking throw game made worse, they took out his jab setups, perfect pivoting is gone, and the faster-paced nature of Ultimate compared to Smash 4 makes it way more likely you'll hit dead on instead of a tipper. They also nerfed sourspot fmash (why?) and tipper Fair among other things. Not only does he play bad, he FEELS bad which is the biggest reason why playing him isn't enjoyable this time around imo
At the same time, the landing lag reductions to all his aerials gave his a plethora of new setups into tipper F-Smash and his dash -> shield is no longer complete trash letting him contend against projectiles a bit better. I think the landing lag changes make him feel better overall compared to smash 4, really the biggest nerf that I have an issue with is Up-throw not killing anymore.

I do think he feels somewhat bad to play, but the reason he feels bad to play for me is that his attacks outside of D-Tilt just feel too commital. You can't just throw an F-Tilt or Up-Tilt out like you can with a brawler like Falco since these moves have a lot of endlag, and his least commital move, Down-tilt, has situational reward, esp compared to Falco, who can get Fair drag down combos, an up-air, a nair, or something else. His air physics are also a bit difficult to work with since he's a bit floaty and has to delay his aerials a bit for greater shield safety. Its much easier to go below Marth and hit him with an up-tilt or Cloud Dash attack or something than other characters like Roy as a result. His safest options are probably D-Tilt and Dash Grab, the latter of which stings because it is the definition of low reward. Its weird because I never felt this way when playing him in Smash 4, but the faster nature of Ultimate and the greater number options the player has access to from a dash may have led to this weakness being more exploitable.
 
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Hydreigonfan01

Smash Master
Joined
Aug 24, 2018
Messages
4,676
HIKARU posted his DK and Roy matchup charts
 

Hippieslayer

Smash Ace
Joined
Aug 12, 2008
Messages
966
Location
Azeroth
Looking at Leo's Corrin the character can actually weaponize pace quite well, throwing out consecutive hitboxes which are barely if at all punishable while covering massive space all the while having solid OOS options rendering her almost immune to cross ups. On smaller stages it can look brutal af sometimes. Like she's better at scrambling than you'd think kinda because of how she can turn a scramble situation into a just outside of close quarters situation (where her hitboxes give her the edge and force respect) while fighting back with an aerial that's gonna be barely punishable. People will get better at parrying and insta responding to her stuff with time if the character keeps being present in the meta, and they will get better at exploiting her recovery too for sure.

But there's probably stuff Corrins aren't yet doing that they could. And Leo still hasn't mastered the character the way he plays it now, he can def still improve his microspacing and ff reverse uairs (the most broken FF rev uair in the game? Probs) more optimally. I get the sense that she may even be better than Lucina when it comes to handling rush downers like Roy and neutral monsters like fox or sheik. Gotta agree with Nair tbh. But like Leo says, on big stages her low mobility becomes a lot more noticeable. Oh well. Exciting stuff.
 
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Mikazuki

Smash Cadet
Joined
Dec 25, 2018
Messages
37
Looking at Leo's Corrin the character can actually weaponize pace quite well, throwing out consecutive hitboxes which are barely if at all punishable while covering massive space all the while having solid OOS options rendering her almost immune to cross ups. On smaller stages it can look brutal af sometimes.

And Leo still hasn't mastered the character, he can def still improve a lot microspacing and fastfalling reverse uairs more optimally.
Agreed, there were also some more optimal combo routes and easier kill confirms he could go for. Like for one instance, instead of fair > bair he also had the opportunity to go for fair > neutral B which would have killed earlier. I was also suprised to see him not hitting any of these pin 2 frames, which are on characters that don’t snap the ledge instantly relatively easy to hit as pin hits though the stage while they are recovering. Shadic and Ly for that matter are the technically more profound players with the character, but Leo is the better player overall. I Think the same could be said about Larry‘s Vs. Tilde‘s Falcos. Nevertheless Leo played spectacular. But I also noticed how Gluto and Sparg0 were quite shaken up by Leo. Both SD‘d suprisingly more than once and went for some desperate options. It’s weird, because they even had momentum on their side. Gluto beating Spargo before Leo and Spargo beating Gluto. I wouldn’t even say it was MU inexperience, especially not in Spargo‘s case, he did play with Shadic quite a lot after all. Maybe the mental games of possibly losing to someone‘s pocket character played tricks on them.

Anyways, I am happy to study some more VODs and a little bit sad, that I probably won’t be able to cheese wifi warriors with the fsmash jank anymore.
 
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Hippieslayer

Smash Ace
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Aug 12, 2008
Messages
966
Location
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Yep, his combo routes are solid but not optimized. And those pin tech chases.. he could get some brutal stuff out of them too. And he's going to find ways to trap people into dragonfang shot too by reading them in disadvantage.

And he's not even using raw aerial pin yet, a laggy but super potent super long range once or twice per set option that kills mad early. Cosmos used to be really good at that, even doing it in neutral where it can catch people because they think they are safe because they are out of range of all her other options.

It's also something you can run offstage with and catch people with since they tend to go low vs Corrin, and Corrin can set up for it with forward and backthrow and ftilt too.

I mean one of the things that stands out the most about Leo as a player is the low average percentage his opponents are at when he takes their stocks. Corrin has a lot of potential in that regard. There's the stuff I already mentioned and there's more like down angled tipper fsmash 2 framing. I don't even think it needs to two frame against most recoveries, it goes that far down.

It might be possible that Leo's Corrin will actually develop faster than the Corrin counterplay. Big stages vs neutral monsters playing passively though, how does Leo get around that? He can't pressure them enough to make them play his game when there's more space for them to get around him.

He's dropped Joker and Byleth has the same issues with Big stages. Leo spoke about this on tweektalks and he kinda just admitted it was an issue for him for which he did not really have an answer other than smart stage picking and banning.This might become more of an issue in the future for Leo as the meta develops. For example what does Byleth or Corrin do vs a character like Diddy on a non small stage in the long run? I like speculating about Leo's potential demise because he always seems to find a way in the end.

Now I'm waiting for and hoping that Sheik will really break out too.

Also Pikachu is overrated and struggles in way too many matchups were other top tiers typically do fine to be anywhere near the best in the game. The character isn't even top 5, and why would it even be top 10? There are more well rounded characters. What does it matter that Pika can just shut down a lot of the cast when the rat struggles vs characters like ness, Steve and gets obliterated by Peach, like that says something. There's a hole in the game plan there vs characters with certain traits that are fairly common. Maybe I'm off base a bit, I haven't had a recent look at Pika's results and I know I'm not making this point in the most eloquent manner, I still think it's there though.

Pika is just the character that does the most broken looking stuff sometimes and people see it and they hear esams ceaseless gospel and ignore the flaws of pika and the fact that most of what esam says is whack and not well thought through.

They don't want to have to deal with the cognitive dissonance of there not necessarily existing a "the best" character or even a clear top 5. So they jump on the bandwagon.

I don't think the way the meta has developed and will develop favours the rodent either.
 
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Hydreigonfan01

Smash Master
Joined
Aug 24, 2018
Messages
4,676
New Tweek Talks dropped. They discuss Corrin, Sephiroth and Incineroar a bit here as well as mention their opinions and thoughts on RETA 2022.
 
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Hippieslayer

Smash Ace
Joined
Aug 12, 2008
Messages
966
Location
Azeroth
shouldnt oos footstool dair with corrin at low percents be really good? And like Marcus is kinda saying in the TT episode: if you think about it, corrin is kinda like fox, in how she can land one hit and then combo you, but that's just the beginning

they, chase you and they force you to expend resources to be able to escape, and that sets up this whole other mental space, in which they can read if youre gonna jump or airdodge, and in what direction; foregoing an immediate attack in order to punish your defensive option instead, this also makes it risky for you to spam airdodge, if they know youre doing that they can intentionally drop their combos on you

this in turn makes it so that sometimes when they actually drop their combos, you still get comboed, because you don't airdodge because in the heat of the moment you are not sure if their combo is going to be true or not unless you have a lot of matchup experience, because it often comes down to very few frames,, and then they also do this thing where they throw tech stuff in there too while you are already under enourmous pressure,

the end result being you get juggled for ages, and if you get a chance to retreat to ledge you take it, because landing on stage just doesnt work, and they initiate this with a non risky neutral tool move

perhaps mythra is not the only foxlike swordie
 
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Rizen

Smash Legend
Joined
May 7, 2009
Messages
14,974
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Fascist ****Hole Of America
I saw the weirdest interaction in a tournament last night. :ultike: tried to OoS upB as :ultluigi: tornadoed right by the ledge. Neither took any stun from the armor on both moves but Ike was pushed sideways a good distance while still in his Aether animation off the edge. He shot up then came down into an SD.
 
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