Official Competitive Character Impressions 2.0

[Spinosaurus]

All that to say and yet still a small playerbase for the character, proving the point of the post. Funnily, it's the player's not playing Wario where the salt leaks from.

I don't play this game anymore but I have been playing this character since Brawl and I can tell you I'd be massively downplaying if I suggested pre-nerf Wario was anything short of really damn stupid. His buttons are incredibly good.

Honestly I'd say he's underrated now if anything, though the utilt nerfs hurt a lot, but he still has some of the best mobility and block pressure/mixups in the game.

 

[Rocketjay8]

I am so Impressed with meta right now. I thought that he would be a character that would fall off at this point of the game's lifespan, but I guess those buffs that he got from most of the patches really helped him. Hopefully, this continues to get better.

 

[Wigglerman]

Incineroar is such an interesting character to me and has since launch. One of my favorite characters in this game and is a character I've often described as 'being a character I never knew I wanted'.

He's in this strange spot of being borderline obscene. His damage is nuts. His hitboxes are actually phenomenal. The frame data on a lot of his moves is pretty darn good. Solid grabs and one of the hurtiest command grabs in the game. Great specials, smashes and tilts. He has combos, he has great kill confirms and raw kill potential is nuts even off stray hits. But then all of these fantastic qualities are roadblocked by poor speed, air mobility and subpar recovery. Once he gets rolling he can be insane but it's terribly difficult to do so because virtually everyone just runs circles around him and very few have a need to initiate combat. He does. Yet seeing high level play of him is just a damn treat and I wish I had the skill with the character to help push him.

And the sad part is there isn't really anything you can do, buff wise, to help him. His baked in stats sorta do all the crippling required to keep him from being incredibly oppressive. If he was faster on ground or air it'd be a problem. Make his recovery any better and he might become a problem. Etc.

This thin line of becoming a breakout threat.

 

[MrGameguycolor]

Good post.

There was a problem fetching the tweet

Yep, easy salt post.
Honestly if you took spammable Smash Attacks out of the conversation, you could easily replace with or even . lol

 

[F4lcoMain]

Well, it can happen it seems, Min Min, K. Rool, and Smash 4 Mac for example, but that hardly seems to be the only or even main factor for a lot of them. Like how they barely touched the Aegis sisters or Pikachu.

Yeah, I do think it is a bit of a coinflip whether complaining actually matters or not. Still, regardless of whether it works or not in improving / nerfinig a character, it doesn't really do much good if the players complaining don't adapt to the stuff they don't like, especially if they are competing for money.

I think Pyra and Mythra are both really really good, but they are both held back by their recovery being so poor, though watching Cosmos play, it seems like he was able to minimize this weakness well against MKleo's Byleth.

Someone else mentioned that one of Byleth's advantages is that most of their moves are able to kill, and I agree. Tipper FAir, Bair, and Side B and all extremely good killing moves that cover a lot of distance and able to kill from the side early (on walk-off stages, they are espicially good because of their high base knockback). Well-Spaced Fair's and Bair's can also be difficult to punish. Having a poking tool like F-tilt and a burst option like Dash Attack also kill is really nice. Falco is another character I play, and by comparison, it can be difficult to grab a KO if I am out of the range or miss U-Tilt -> Back-Air confirms and I need to rely on other methods like a well timed U-Smash, cheesy edge-guards, or walking D-tilt to kill. I watched one of Tilde's sets with ZD and this seemed to be the case in some of his matches as well. Byleth's neutral tools killing and his recovery being more difficult to exploit does make him feel more consistent than Falco at higher percentages, who is proned to getting cheesed due to his exploitable recovery

 

[Hippieslayer]

Honestly I'd say he's underrated now if anything, though the utilt nerfs hurt a lot, but he still has some of the best mobility and block pressure/mixups in the game.

Uhh, how is he underrated? In the meta of today he doesn't seem to be that strong a character. He struggles with swordies, and a whole lot of other characters too. He has many matchups in which neutral is really bad for him, where he struggles to get anything started at all and just gets outspaced and whittled down. Falling uair and utilt lead to stuff consistently, but those are moves that you can land when you are pressuring your opponent, not when your opponent is camping you out. People have gotten more patient, less prone to overcommiting and allowing him to whiff punish, and better at DI'ing his nair combos too so he's generally not able to convert the way he used to. The nerfs played a part, but even without them he would've fallen off to some degree. Looking at Glutonny's games in SWT I think its becoming rather apparent Wario has a lot of the same flaws as he did Sm4sh. There were a lot of times where he just didn't have any answers, and Glutonny is really really good and knows his stuff better than anyone. Wario is no top tier anymore.

I can definitely understand some of the frustration in that salty tweet. Times have changed and not in a good way for Wario. There are new characters which give him a really hard time. And there's plenty old ones that have been buffed and are now also giving him a hard time. And there's the fact that the way people play now compared to how they did earlier in the meta also really sucks for him.

I think ZSS is suffering for similar reasons. But unlike Wario she never really gets shut down completely, she can win pretty much all matchups, she just has to slow down the pace a lot and be very picky about when to go in.

 

[DrCoeloCephalo]

I don't play this game anymore but I have been playing this character since Brawl and I can tell you I'd be massively downplaying if I suggested pre-nerf Wario was anything short of really damn stupid. His buttons are incredibly good.

Honestly I'd say he's underrated now if anything, though the utilt nerfs hurt a lot, but he still has some of the best mobility and block pressure/mixups in the game.

Neither do I cuz Project M is better but I've been playing this character since Brawl too and losing so much stuff from an actually good Smash attack,an actual approach option and skill rewarded projectile play is not satisfying.
It is infuriating to lose DAir to Waft which wasn't easy to land on top of how easy it is to miss falling UAir. Rising NAir out of shield still doesn't work sometimes even when the opponent is right in front of you meanwhile Mario can just hit the A button for a jab while Wario can't cuz his bittons aren't actually that good. If they were that easy to get away with, the playerbase wouldn't be so small and wouldn't rely on high skill players to get results as histiry has proven he does.

Yep, easy salt post.
Honestly if you took spammable Smash Attacks out of the conversation, you could easily replace with or even . lol

You mean a character with better frame data and one with actual range?

Again, it's the people that don't play the character that pour out the most salt.

Love how there was zero counterargument against the point about the Nairo combo that players got salty over too. Almost like it isn't easy to do or something.

Again,all this to say and yet still a small playerbase on the character and no actual denial towards the skill level of Glutonny.

 

[MrGameguycolor]

You mean a character with better frame data and one with actual range?

Again, it's the people that don't play the character that pour out the most salt.

Love how there was zero counterargument against the point about the Nairo combo that players got salty over too. Almost like it isn't easy to do or something.

Again,all this to say and yet still a small playerbase on the character and no actual denial towards the skill level of Glutonny.

1.Doc & Steve have hardly any range, it's comparable Wario.
Wario & Steve have elements to make up for it in other ways, Doc really doesn't.

2 & 3. Welcome to the internet, this happens to every character, even Mid to Low tiers get accused of being "Gimmicks and that's why they shouldn't have won". People get salty all the time and Wario isn't special there.

4: Playerbase size doesn't equal viability.
There are multiple reasons why a character is played in tournament:

-Do they fit your playstyle?
-Are they loved in their home series & or in Smash?
-Do you enjoy playing them casually?
-Are they fun? (with multiple factors from that alone)
-etc...

Ganondorf has a large playerbase and he's one of the worst.

The OP was pretty self-explanatory why it didn't work. Rizen's reply basically nailed down why.

You have your opinions about Wario and all, but I wouldn't cite the OP as the reason why because it did a pretty poor job explaining.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

This isn't the first time this guy's made posts here about how upset he is that a top tier character in a game he doesn't play got nerfed so I suggest we ignore this

 

[B_Burg]

I'd actually like to get some thoughts on the current meta of the game based off something Void said in his tier list video.

At around the 14:20 mark, he mentions that the meta is moving towards more disjoints and playing campy "because we can."

Is that him just putting his thoughts out there or is that a common belief about the way the meta is going? It makes sense when you consider a lot of the characters that are considered the best of the best, but I feel like even there that leaves some noteworthy outliers. It also makes me wonder about characters like trending negatively and trending positively. Not that either of those characters are what you would call 'meta-defining' but I feel like they wouldn't be going that way unless they were either misunderstood as characters from some perspective, or because that idea of where the meta is trending is still very loose.

 

[NairWizard]

eh, if camping were at the top of the meta, then Roy, Byleth, and Luigi wouldn't be doing well

at the top of the meta is strong anti-pressure tools. high reward + ledgetrapping is necessary too, but you really need high-pressure scramble buttons to supplement whatever gameplan you have

That's why Sephiroth will never be good and Greninja will never break into top level at this rate

 

[F4lcoMain]

I'd actually like to get some thoughts on the current meta of the game based off something Void said in his tier list video.

At around the 14:20 mark, he mentions that the meta is moving towards more disjoints and playing campy "because we can."

Is that him just putting his thoughts out there or is that a common belief about the way the meta is going? It makes sense when you consider a lot of the characters that are considered the best of the best, but I feel like even there that leaves some noteworthy outliers. It also makes me wonder about characters like trending negatively and trending positively. Not that either of those characters are what you would call 'meta-defining' but I feel like they wouldn't be going that way unless they were either misunderstood as characters from some perspective, or because that idea of where the meta is trending is still very loose.

Can't say anything for the in-person meta, but in the online metagame, those seem to be the easiest strategies, yes. Characters with big disjointed hitboxes have a much easier time throwing attacks since the window to punish them tend to be smaller. A character like Falco can't really throw out as many attacks on an opponent's shield since he'll just get shield grabbed or punished w/ a fast OOS aerial. That being said, good disjointed hitboxes only applies to some of the swordies since several of them, such as Mythra and Meta knight, don't actually have much range on their attacks, so retreating Fairs and such aren't as powerful.

Camping is pretty good in the online meta game too. Non-interaction is the safest interaction to scout what your opponents will do and whiff punish opponents with safe, low risk options. Mythra's speed is part of the reason I think she is so strong, since she can just dance around opponents without them being able to punish and choose the appropriate time to attack and land a hit. She can also reset neutral quite easily during advantage should she need to.

Part of the reason I think camping and disjoints are so powerful in an online metagame is that they are relatively straightforward options that require little thought or commitment to execute. Running away and spacing Fairs and Bairs isn't that hard, and it is much harder for characters to punish optimally and react to these actions in an online environment. I haven't played offline in a while, but I believe that these strategies, though still strong in an offline environment, wouldn't be as strong since characters are able to better react and punish these strategies optimally. Messing up against someone like Falco would probably tack on an additional 20-30% in an offline environment since his combos would be optimized better and he would be able to react to and punish defensive options better.

 

[Aaron1997]

SSBU Tech:
Tumble Escape Option Selects pic.twitter.com/Y6l6y4Rd3a

— miclwave (@Radio_SSB) January 1, 2022

Just putting this out here

 

[Hydreigonfan01]

Someone did an NA Top 50 on Twitter using an algorithm. It was only showcasing wins on NA players and NA majors.
https://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/comments/rvhu90
In addition, he did a sheet showcasing the amount of character usage there is in the top 50

Some extra data from the top 50: Here's a breakdown of how many times each character appeared! (secondaries included) pic.twitter.com/rAxaTrOdyn

— Dαn (@PumpkinatorSSB) January 5, 2022

 

[NairWizard]

The person who posted this claims that it's "formula-based" with 0 insight into the data collection method or algorithm used to produce the results. It's hard to take this seriously even if it does seem accurate at a glance. I really wouldn't put much weight on stats that you can't source.

 

[Sucumbio]

Very entertaining watching these two have some friendlies. Even after they'd gotten used to each other's playstyle the surprises just keep coming!

 

[Hydreigonfan01]

OrionRank Top 100 coming soon

Been a bit quiet - but OrionRank 2021 is on the way. Currently, the scoring is finished, and graphics & writing are in development. As per usual, there will be a written top 100, a public top 150, and a collection of graphics done by @EazyFreezie

— Barnard's Loop (@LoopBarnard) January 5, 2022

 

[Deleted member]

Lucina seems to resonate right now. Regardless of the tier place she may be in? Ill do my best with her. Considering the online tournaments and prizes? I'll take advantage of that one day to see where I stand. I think it's time revist the FG scene in some way.

 

[KirbySquad101]

I know this is completely off topic (sorry bout that), but I hope you all had a great New Years!

More importantly, I hope you all stay safe and healthy. Covid times have only gotten rougher this year sadly, and it's moments like these where it's most important to remember that the health of us and our loved ones should be always be prioritized first, even in our desire to return to how things originally were.

Wish you all the best this year going forward. :>

 

[Linkmain-maybe]

I feel as though that Kazuya is being slept on. He has fantastic damage out put and kill power, his slow speed is made up for by a plethora of excellent intangible moves and his intangible dash, plus he has one of the best comeback mechanics in the game.

 

[Deleted member]

Honestly? Im indecisive going back to tournaments, due to the prohibition of FGC standards. From the old school perception, I believe that people should be able to counter pick and not be limited by what's in an competitive environment. Fighting games will always have their balance issues. Regardless of the example of learning a handful of characters to even the odds or more in matchups or more? It should be encouraged for those who wish to win more. That's generally why I've stopped going to tournaments over 20 years ago. I've had some moments back then obeying the rules, but full freedom is what makes the genre more interesting as far as winning.

 

[Wigglerman]

I feel as though that Kazuya is being slept on. He has fantastic damage out put and kill power, his slow speed is made up for by a plethora of excellent intangible moves and his intangible dash, plus he has one of the best comeback mechanics in the game.

I don't think anyone is really sleeping on Kazuya. All his strengths have been well credited by the community at large. However what holds him back is insane levels of execution to make him work in tandem with his horrid jump squat preventing him from properly playing air-to-air which is incredibly potent in this game, let alone Smash as a whole.

That and his disadvantage has been dissected to death in that it's terrible. Absolutely terrible. He struggles REALLY hard against most the entire roster just to get back onto the ground/get out of juggle situations let alone good ways to reset things to neutral once he's being snowballed on.

He's strong, no one will deny that. His combos are nuts, no one will deny that. But the demand on the player to play him consistently each and every game when others can 'go burrrrr' in comparison makes him a stamina drain on any player using him. You HAVE to play harder than your opponent each and every game, which hurts his consistency further over a long bracket grind.

 

[Frihetsanka]

Honestly? Im indecisive going back to tournaments, due to the prohibition of FGC standards. From the old school perception, I believe that people should be able to counter pick and not be limited by what's in an competitive environment. Fighting games will always have their balance issues. Regardless of the example of learning a handful of characters to even the odds or more in matchups or more? It should be encouraged for those who wish to win more. That's generally why I've stopped going to tournaments over 20 years ago. I've had some moments back then obeying the rules, but full freedom is what makes the genre more interesting as far as winning.

I'm not quite sure what you mean. It sounds like you are talking about characters, but in Smash you can pick whichever character you want.

 

[Rizen]

I don't think anyone is really sleeping on Kazuya. All his strengths have been well credited by the community at large. However what holds him back is insane levels of execution to make him work in tandem with his horrid jump squat preventing him from properly playing air-to-air which is incredibly potent in this game, let alone Smash as a whole.

That and his disadvantage has been dissected to death in that it's terrible. Absolutely terrible. He struggles REALLY hard against most the entire roster just to get back onto the ground/get out of juggle situations let alone good ways to reset things to neutral once he's being snowballed on.

He's strong, no one will deny that. His combos are nuts, no one will deny that. But the demand on the player to play him consistently each and every game when others can 'go burrrrr' in comparison makes him a stamina drain on any player using him. You HAVE to play harder than your opponent each and every game, which hurts his consistency further over a long bracket grind.

I agree with this. Kazuya is a very solid character with extreme comeback options but suffers from being over shadowed by characters who are not only better but much easier to use. It's very stressful to play technical characters in actual tournaments.

I disagree about his disadvantage state though. It's bad but the fact his upB has armor and doesn't cause freefalling gives him an excellent recovery where he can also go high, which most characters can't do. Going high is a valuable thing and underrated.

 

[Hydreigonfan01]

ESAM, Marss and WaDi did a video on Panda Global's channel talking about Pyra/Mythra's tier placement

They all collectively agree the character is at least top 2, potentially the best. They also say that because the character is so simple, they're the best in a tournament setting even if might be more powerful since you can just pick them up and as long as your fundamentals are good you'd do fine whereas that's not the case with Joker.

 

[Wigglerman]

I agree with this. Kazuya is a very solid character with extreme comeback options but suffers from being over shadowed by characters who are not only better but much easier to use. It's very stressful to play technical characters in actual tournaments.

I disagree about his disadvantage state though. It's bad but the fact his upB has armor and doesn't cause freefalling gives him an excellent recovery where he can also go high, which most characters can't do. Going high is a valuable thing and underrated.

Yes, but also no in regards to his disadvantage. He can go high, sure. But he doesn't really WANT to be above his opponent is the issue. Sometimes he has to because it's better than death but he's almost always going to eat another 30% at minimum for it because he just doesn't have any real answers to people being underneath him. His Up B might manage to get him out of a juggle but then he's still drifting about in the air and has to play Tetris with his opponent to get himself onto the ground without suffering further agony XD

 

[The_Bookworm]

his upB has armor

His up B actually doesn't have any armor, or intangibility.
The funny thing is that it is pretty much one of the only moves from Kazuya that actually looks that it should have armor/intangibility, but it is actually one of the only moves from his movepool that doesn't.

It is regardless a bit tricky to challenge, especially if you don't have much Kazuya experience, as the strong hitbox clanks with some ledgetrapping options while it is a bit disjointed.
It is not as difficult to challenge from above as let's say, Ridley's up B or up air (both of those moves are absolutely huge from above), but it is a factor.

 

[Diddy Kong]

ESAM, Marss and WaDi did a video on Panda Global's channel talking about Pyra/Mythra's tier placement

They all collectively agree the character is at least top 2, potentially the best. They also say that because the character is so simple, they're the best in a tournament setting even if might be more powerful since you can just pick them up and as long as your fundamentals are good you'd do fine whereas that's not the case with Joker.

Aegis is like the pocket Cloud of Smash 4. This was established some while ago.

 

[Sucumbio]

Watching riddles who's arguably the best kazuya it's clear that kazuya is a stock deleter and serious force of straight brute force. He's also super difficult to execute combos with consistently which costs him a lot of stocks. He's an all or nothing character and he has to keep very close pressure in order to beat out the rest of the cast. It's also clear the counterplay has developed much quicker than kazuya's own offensive so it's not surprising he's not notably used by many players. Lastly his out of shield is frankly sub par though you could argue a kazuya main should not be shielding much but Ultimate is just going to favor the defensively strong characters in this regard.

 

[Frihetsanka]

Enjoying sephiroth 😳

— LG | MkLeo (@Mkleosb) December 30, 2021

In 2 months people will be calling Sephiroth top tier, calling it now. (He's probably high tier though)

(This is assuming MkLeo actually plays him in tournaments a decent amount, he might not)

Seeing people on Reddit call Sephiroth mid tier again is a bit disappointing, it's like people don't actually watch what the character can do at a higher level. Which, granted, might be the case, it's hard to keep updated on what every character can do. But he's minimum high tier, he's not mid tier.

 

[Hydreigonfan01]

Enjoying sephiroth 😳

— LG | MkLeo (@Mkleosb) December 30, 2021

In 2 months people will be calling Sephiroth top tier, calling it now. (He's probably high tier though)

(This is assuming MkLeo actually plays him in tournaments a decent amount, he might not)

Seeing people on Reddit call Sephiroth mid tier again is a bit disappointing, it's like people don't actually watch what the character can do at a higher level. Which, granted, might be the case, it's hard to keep updated on what every character can do. But he's minimum high tier, he's not mid tier.

Leo's just baiting for responses. He did the same on his Twitter where he said he'd play Joker at the SWT. He did not play Joker at the SWT.

 

[Hydreigonfan01]

TOP96の方の使用ファイターもまとめました。（使用していたのが2選手以下は非掲載）
シード240名では圧倒的だったホムラ／ヒカリになんとロックマンが追いつきました。
また、シークを使用していたシード選手は全員通過しました。#篝火スマブラ https://t.co/cGFTzV5lbR pic.twitter.com/b4ujWocwpi

— fun2smash (@fun2smash) January 8, 2022

/ and were the most popular characters who got into top 96 of Kagaribi 6.

オミクロン株による複雑な状況ですが、篝火#6のシード選手240名の使用ファイター上位をまとめました。辞退を表明された方も含んでいます。
誤差はあるかと思いますが、圧倒的にホムラ/ヒカリが多い結果になりました。なのに単で使用している方がほぼいなかったのが興味深かったです。#篝火スマブラ pic.twitter.com/kljd8jlHX9

— fun2smash (@fun2smash) January 7, 2022

In addition, Aegis had the highest amount of seeded players who used them as either a co-main or a secondary.

It feels like since Aegis got slightly nerfed (which was mostly a slap on the wrist), the character has gotten more dominant. The character is much more popular in Japan now and they did the best out of any character at the SWT by a wide margin.

 

[Linkmain-maybe]

which was mostly a slap on the wrist

The nerfs were less impactful than I thought they were gonna be. While Mythra F-smash needs ing to kill at slightly higher % sounds like a healthy nerf on paper, in truth all she needs to do is win 1 more neutral interaction, which shouldn’t be a problem in the slightest. Especially since you only need like a single down tilt to bring it back to killing %. Pyra side-b nerf was very small. With 3 extra frames to punish, the only time this actually matters is when she is trying to cover her recovery with side b. If she hits on shield, they still probably won’t get punished because the timing to roll out of the hits is deceivingly difficult. If she whiffs entirely, the she will likely run to a platform like on Kalos or roll into the sword (Which is only punishable by very disjointed moves like Sephiroth moves and projectiles)

Overall, it feels even less like a slap on the wrist, more like a verbal scolding…

 

[DrCoeloCephalo]

1.Doc & Steve have hardly any range, it's comparable Wario.
Wario & Steve have elements to make up for it in other ways, Doc really doesn't.

2 & 3. Welcome to the internet, this happens to every character, even Mid to Low tiers get accused of being "Gimmicks and that's why they shouldn't have won". People get salty all the time and Wario isn't special there.

4: Playerbase size doesn't equal viability.
There are multiple reasons why a character is played in tournament:

-Do they fit your playstyle?
-Are they loved in their home series & or in Smash?
-Do you enjoy playing them casually?
-Are they fun? (with multiple factors from that alone)
-etc...

Ganondorf has a large playerbase and he's one of the worst.

The OP was pretty self-explanatory why it didn't work. Rizen's reply basically nailed down why.

You have your opinions about Wario and all, but I wouldn't cite the OP as the reason why because it did a pretty poor job explaining.

Steve has a sword and a USmash that can reach higher platforms, so no.

Yet plenty of players insist on the lack of "honor" with Wario. Funnily, you're right since people I talk to in real life are more reasonable than this. Even friends of mine that still actively play Trash Ultimate agree with the points made.

Doesn't change the fact pleny of top tiers have way larger playerbases yet the small number of Wario players are whined over.

They really didn't cuz the OP beforehand debunks alot of the points with the awful range, high skill ceiling, etc.

If anything, my own opinions are more justified since I put so much practice into in the first place justifies mine far more.

This isn't the first time this guy's made posts here about how upset he is that a top tier character in a game he doesn't play got nerfed so I suggest we ignore this

You can ignore the high skill ceiling and lack of usage all you please. Doesn't make it less true. Certainly played the character far more than the scrubs that cry about him. If all you have to say is a strawman like that, then you probably are just better off keeping your mouth shut.

 

[Linkmain-maybe]

Before anybody replies, just ignore him. Adding fuel to the fire ain’t gonna help.

 

[DrCoeloCephalo]

I'd rather be ignored if I can't be proven wrong anyway. People that don't think shouldn't talk.

 

[Nah]

The nerfs were less impactful than I thought they were gonna be. While Mythra F-smash needs ing to kill at slightly higher % sounds like a healthy nerf on paper, in truth all she needs to do is win 1 more neutral interaction, which shouldn’t be a problem in the slightest. Especially since you only need like a single down tilt to bring it back to killing %. Pyra side-b nerf was very small. With 3 extra frames to punish, the only time this actually matters is when she is trying to cover her recovery with side b. If she hits on shield, they still probably won’t get punished because the timing to roll out of the hits is deceivingly difficult. If she whiffs entirely, the she will likely run to a platform like on Kalos or roll into the sword (Which is only punishable by very disjointed moves like Sephiroth moves and projectiles)

Overall, it feels even less like a slap on the wrist, more like a verbal scolding…

There was never much reason to think that the nerfs were going to be anything more than a slap on the wrist. Even before Pythra released, it was clear enough that the developers have had a conservative approach to nerfs. There's only one character I can think of that was significantly impacted by their nerfs in Ultimate, which is . Most shifts in tier list position/viability perception have been primarily a result of other things afaik.

 

[Hippieslayer]

uhhh Min Min, and I think there's a couple of others who got non-trivial nerfs, like Wario, probs Wolf too? Agree about shifts in viability being more due to the meta itself shifting as new characters are added and people get better at the game though.

 

[Arthur97]

Not sure if Wolf's, as many as he got, ever really impacted him that hard. He's still clearly really good. Olimar/Alph might be the next biggest one though was the shield thing ever fixed?

Min Min is yet to be seen. She's still done well post nerf so it looks like she may have come out intact.

 

[Idon]

Yeah I hope with Zackray's showing at K6, I think any remaining "Joker isn't top tier/3" rhetoric can be put to bed.