Official Competitive Character Impressions 2.0

[Hydreigonfan01]

DDee, the third best player in Georgia, just did a tier list

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[Diddy Kong]

Honestly, how likely is the chance even that Ultimate is ever gonna get a definite Tier List ? Opinions vary heavily amongst players, making me sometimes wonder if they're even saying the same game.

It's been years now...

 

[Sucumbio]

Honestly, how likely is the chance even that Ultimate is ever gonna get a definite Tier List ? Opinions vary heavily amongst players, making me sometimes wonder if they're even saying the same game.

It's been years now...

Well the dlc continued to mix things up a bit especially when Aegis joined... Once Sora's about 6 months old I'd expect tier lists to agree more.

Thing is too there's a disconnect between pro players who express match up tier lists vs overall tier lists.

One thing just about everyone agrees on is the top tier (joker, Aegis, Pikachu) and high tier, and as you get into the lower half of high tier is where things start to diverge more. the top 10 or 15 characters as such remain fairly consistent.

 

[Arthur97]

Do most agree on Pikachu? Even if they do, can we honestly call it a top three contender with such sparse showings? For that matter is Joker even a lock for best? That said, check out the cognitive dissonance of any who say that Smash is pay to win (despite most DLC not being anywhere near over powered) while saying Pikachu is best in the game.

Otherwise, DLC didn't actually spice too much up most of the time. That said, there are just so many fighters, and with so many, ahem, "experts" not really bothering to sort the lower tiers, I kinda doubt we'll ever get a largely agreed upon ordered list like games past.

 

[Diddy Kong]

Pikachu and Joker don't seem Top Tier to me either, definitely not Top 3. Aegis is there for sure, a character most agree to actually be the best. I'd say R.O.B. and Roy should come next, based on their results. I'd argue Wolf and maybe Palutena have more results than Pikachu and Joker too. I mean , the most famous Joker player doesn't even play the character no more.

It's weird as hell these two characters are placed above Aegis, a character proved to be effective even when pocketed. Meanwhile, Joker is based off MKLeo's old results, and Pikachu = ESAM. Tweek's Diddy is doing better, going by this logic, Diddy > Joker and Pikachu. There's no reason to group Diddy and Byleth amongst characters as Hero, Pichu, Sora, Link, Ike, Kazuya and Bayonetta.....

 

[Diddy Kong]

Wtf went wrong here lol

 

[SKX31]

Do most agree on Pikachu? Even if they do, can we honestly call it a top three contender with such sparse showings? For that matter is Joker even a lock for best? That said, check out the cognitive dissonance of any who say that Smash is pay to win (despite most DLC not being anywhere near over powered) while saying Pikachu is best in the game.

Otherwise, DLC didn't actually spice too much up most of the time. That said, there are just so many fighters, and with so many, ahem, "experts" not really bothering to sort the lower tiers, I kinda doubt we'll ever get a largely agreed upon ordered list like games past.

Pikachu and Joker don't seem Top Tier to me either, definitely not Top 3. Aegis is there for sure, a character most agree to actually be the best. I'd say R.O.B. and Roy should come next, based on their results. I'd argue Wolf and maybe Palutena have more results than Pikachu and Joker too. I mean , the most famous Joker player doesn't even play the character no more.

It's weird as hell these two characters are placed above Aegis, a character proved to be effective even when pocketed. Meanwhile, Joker is based off MKLeo's old results, and Pikachu = ESAM. Tweek's Diddy is doing better, going by this logic, Diddy > Joker and Pikachu. There's no reason to group Diddy and Byleth amongst characters as Hero, Pichu, Sora, Link, Ike, Kazuya and Bayonetta.....

As recently as October most pros placed Pika top ten-ish if not best in the game - with a better average than Aegis (I have not encountered a newer excel spreadsheet that compiles tierlists). Worth noting that the Pika critique had been ongoing here for a while by that point IIRC, and I remember quite a few people outright stating they had gotten tired of Pika being atop of a lot of tier lists.

I should reiterate that those placing Pikachu at the very top tend to view potential very highly. This is not only referring to ESAM - who has had a very heavy lean towards potential - but MockRock's also stated that he views Pikachu* as the best based on weighted matchups. Yes, MockRock's not a top player, but as a wide-reaching Youtuber he's worth noting in this context.

And honestly, there's my main issue with how the tier list debates have shaped up: a lot of people don't engage with others' criteria. Most tier lists are mainly looking at results, potential, weighted MUs or something else as the primary criteria. But if one doesn't at least say how one views the other criteria it risks becoming a case of preaching to the choir.

As such I think the Pika critique is honestly being a bit undermined by the lack of engagement with other criteria. Yes ESAM has been very inconsistent and the Pika playerbase is nowhere near say the Aegis playerbase, but I'm not entirely convinced by the critique oftentimes not reflecting upon how other criteria should be viewed. Now this is entering hard what-if territory, and it's understandably difficult to even answer.

The players placing Pikachu atop every single tierlist does also fall into my main issue too (this absolutely includes ESAM, who's extremely staunch in his views). There is absolutely a lot of pros who lean a bit too hard on potential and do not engage with results properly. But that might the by product of having not only a very decentralized tournament scene, but also such a large roster that it'd take ages to even compile the Top / High tier-only MU chart.

All in all, tier lists are never an exact science - they're always going to be opinion-based - but I think the discussion could use a little more rigour so it's not just preaching to the choir.

*(Here.)

 

[Linkmain-maybe]

Yes, MockRock's not a top player, but as a wide-reaching Youtuber he's worth noting in this context.

However he has said not to view him as a voice of authority. I trust many of his opinions, but treating him as someone to reference when he himself has said not to reference is not very sound. Aside from that I agree with what you have said. Should also note that Aegis is well as a secondary because they are being piloted by pro players who are either sword character enthusiasts, or who have incredible fundies. Most of them also being top 20 top 10 players.

 

[Arthur97]

I still generally have a hard time believing the literal best of the best struggles to get results. Basing it all on something as nebulous as "potential" seems rather dubious. Especially when its yet to consistently be pulled off. It also seems to kinda fall into the pitfall of regurgitating popular ideas without much merit so that they have become accepted. Theory crafting is well and good, but repeatedly claiming Pikachu is better than the several fighters with better and more consistent results...why? At least Joker proved it pretty consistently even if those results are largely aging. Pikachu has a few good showings from ESAM, but also some not as good showings from the same. Nothing really screams overall best in the game.

In the end, we are not dealing with perfect situations and perfect players, so even if the Pokemon was best in theory (and let me stress "if") we have little to nothing to actually indicate that is the case in the real, practical world.

And generally speaking, the roster is so huge, and odds are their personal experience is still relatively limited, so trusting even a handful of pros to make an accurate tier list doesn't seem like the best strategy. Even if they are legitimately trying to make an accurate one, they probably just don't know enough. Especially about lower tiers, but ironically enough, how often do most fight a Pikachu? Even more, how often do they fight one that isn't ESAM? As tired as it is, remember, if Leo winning doesn't make the Byleths top tier, then ESAM (being less consistent) doesn't make the rodent the literal best in the game.

 

[Diddy Kong]

Potential is all fun and games, but it's again a double standard if it's applied to Pikachu alone, and not Shulk. I'd argue a optimized Diddy or Sheik are also amongst the best of tbe cast, and Tweek is actually getting the results with Diddy to prove that. But that doesn't mean that characters who get consistent results since (their) release must be ignored in favor of them. Roy and R.O.B. especially, and Aegis who's actually the most dominant character all over right now.

If I'd had to make a pick of the Top Tiers, my order would go like this. Aegis > R.O.B. = Roy > Wolf > Palutena > Shulk = Pikachu > Wario > Joker = Diddy > Fox = Pokemon Trainer = Mario > Sheik > Byleth. Still taking potential in account, but mixed with characters who actually get results.

 

[Idon]

I think this conversation about commonality vs potential is an interesting point with no real right answer. Base a tier list too much on purely real results and it becomes just a spreadsheet of character wins, which is arbitrary and very player dependent. Base a tier list too much on potential and on-paper strategies and it's a tier list for a made-up fantasy land that has no resemblance to real life.

I think that's why a tier list I'm fond of is gsmVoid's where he does a compromise on S tiers who are theoretically good and S tiers who are accessible enough such that they're more commonly seen and place better consistently:

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Joker is absolutely a top tier though.

 

[Wunderwaft]

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Holy **** at long last, looks like we're finally gonna get a comprehensive wiki for competitive information about Smash like Dustloop called Smashloop. Me and Idon think it should be called Nairloop though, that's mostly because Dustloop was a reference to a famous Sol combo in Guilty Gear XX where he loops dust. As for the Nairloop name, I'm sure everyone here knows which character I'm talking about lol. But regardless of the name, this is a great project and it's honestly something long overdue.

 

[Hydreigonfan01]

PR Sonic player in New England did a tier list and it's interesting...

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[Wigglerman]

Personally I'd find it more interesting to see an actual MU chart akin to what SF2 has where we can see proper MU spreads in a digestible manner. Because lists that just say "Has little losing MU" it's like...okay, but what are those MUs? I don't think something 'definitive' is going to happen for a long while even now, however. Due to sheer size of the roster and a lot of what we think, while 'years old' is a blink of time when it comes to the evolving meta of fighting games.

I mean, MVC2 STILL has debates on tier list placements for characters to this very day and that game is 22 years old. While placements for characters shift marginally the players are still figuring out all sorts of things and consider raising characters based on their abilities to actually match well against the metas biggest threats, etc. While the game IS different, being a 2D 3v3 game I believe the same mind set will still apply here.

Each character in Ultimate just doesn't have enough people pushing each one to get, IMO, 'enough data' to ascertain a character's placement just yet.

 

[F4lcoMain]

I like how K Rool was one of the most buffed characters throughout Ultimate's life and he still winds up frequently in the "Bottom 10" category like he was back in 2019. Yeah, the bottom 10 range is still in much better shape than it was in 2019, but still.

And yes, most of the buffs he got went into "kill earlier" which doesn't solve his fundamental issues really. It might be related to Sakurai initially fearing K. Rool was too strong, but it turning out to not be the case. I'm also kinda wondering if they played that game of Operation Thinkaman pointed out - where they tried to buff moves without giving KirbyKid a truly oppressive toolkit.

Also, HERO posted a MU chart...

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Which is spicy and I love it. Bowser losing to Plant and Ganondorf? We need more of these kinda wacky MU charts, they add some much needed spice.

This MU chart looks pretty similar to Leon's MU chart. That being said, Leon's MU chart seemed a lot more optimistic haha.

I have watched some vods of Hero playing in the past and some of the MUs he rates worse make more sense in context. Meta Knight has a massive trump card against Bowser where he is able to 0-death him at earlier percents. Additionally, options like Tornado make it hard for bowser to get back on stage. Ganondorf has good combos against Bowser, like Flame Choke into Down Smash, which can cover most of Bowser's tech options near the ledge. Additionally, Bowser's size makes him vulnerable to getting hit by Ganon's powerful moves like Nair and Up Smash. Also Ganondorf's Up B arm hitbox makes it a bit more difficult for Bowser to use some of his options like Fire Breath.

Vod of Hero fighting Meta Knight
Vod of Hero fighting Ganondorf

 

[Rizen]

This MU chart looks pretty similar to Leon's MU chart. That being said, Leon's MU chart seemed a lot more optimistic haha.

I have watched some vods of Hero playing in the past and some of the MUs he rates worse make more sense in context. Meta Knight has a massive trump card against Bowser where he is able to 0-death him at earlier percents. Additionally, options like Tornado make it hard for bowser to get back on stage. Ganondorf has good combos against Bowser, like Flame Choke into Down Smash, which can cover most of Bowser's tech options near the ledge. Additionally, Bowser's size makes him vulnerable to getting hit by Ganon's powerful moves like Nair and Up Smash. Also Ganondorf's Up B arm hitbox makes it a bit more difficult for Bowser to use some of his options like Fire Breath.

Vod of Hero fighting Meta Knight
Vod of Hero fighting Ganondorf

's a weird and bad character in that he actually has a good amount of decent MUs... -provided they don't get the chance to gimp him at %s as low as 30%. And anyone can do this to him; his recovery is so bad. It's not always possible to force ganon into a situation where you can gimp him and then he is a seemingly decent character. Ganon has the reach and power to be a real threat. But he's always at risk of being launched offstage and hit with a weak aerial. This is why I don't think he has any winning MUs.

 

[Hydreigonfan01]

PGRU contenders Part 1 has been released

 

[Sucumbio]

This is... Odd lol

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[Frihetsanka]

Apparently male Robin is Levin sword and female is bronze sword. Corrin's is amazing, as is Sephiroth's. Mythra's feels better than mid but could be 'cause she's Mythra...

Pichu's is probably at least High in strength, but maybe he dropped it to Mid because of the self-damage? Could be.

 

[Hydreigonfan01]

Decided to post some online major results from the Lunch Box 18, as we're not having offline major tournaments for another few weeks until Glitch Infinite.

1. ShinyMark
2. Sparg0
3. Maister
4. Angel
5. Bonilla
5. SKITTLES!!
7. Desmona
7. Ravenking
9. Vendetta
9. Luma
9. naitosharp
9. KirbyKid
13. Syrup
13. Ferolyo
13. Riddles
13. Yei

 

[blackghost]

i swear as soon as we start talking on here about how Pikachu is all potential with less results pikachu wins an event.

also LOL at bayo being high tier. in that posted tier list.

 

[Wigglerman]

i swear as soon as we start talking on here about how Pikachu is all potential with less results pikachu wins an event.

also LOL at bayo being high tier. in that posted tier list.

Are you referencing ESAM's list? Because that's only tiers for characters Fairs and she has a solid one.

And if referencing the major one before that, that seems like a fair placement for her. She isn't mid or low tier.

 

[Aaron1997]

As if Shiek needed to be better at the ledge. Void has discovered Smash 4 Fox F-air drag down kill set-ups with Shiek's Up-air.

 

[Hydreigonfan01]

Seems like this new confirm for Sheik will be helpful against good characters that have mediocre recoveries, such as , , , and of course / . Not that Sheik wasn't already good at edgeguarding those characters anyway.

 

[NairWizard]

I wouldn’t say that Aegis’ recovery is mediocre by any means. Swap mixups make their recovery pretty above average, and for this Sheik drag down, you can die as the Sheik to Pyra nair or dair if you slightly misspace your up air, which can’t really happen with say Roy.

 

[blackghost]

Are you referencing ESAM's list? Because that's only tiers for characters Fairs and she has a solid one.

And if referencing the major one before that, that seems like a fair placement for her. She isn't mid or low tier.

I'd say it's mid. Bayo fair is really only a combo tool. It's still inconsistent, it's range is minimal, doesn't really space, she doesn't have the bounce on shield and it's not nearly as safe as some others on the same rank.
Also think falcons is too high as well for similar reasons it's a one trick button.

 

[Hydreigonfan01]

ESAM is thinking of picking up either Aegis, Cloud or Byleth as a secondary to deal with.

Byleth feels like the odd one out here, I think out of all the swordies Aegis and Cloud both do extremely well at dealing with Pikachu's more challenging matchups such as , , , , and but I'm not sure if Byleth does. Plus I dunno, at this point ESAM's looking into playing the characters Leo and Sparg0 play, and considering their top 2 in the world I wonder if that has something to do with it.

 

[Diddy Kong]

Okay, so clearly I was mistaken, Pikachu is indeed Top Tier. Probably Top 5 even. But I think all this attention on Byleth definitely proofs they're Top Tier too, or at least upper High Tier.

 

[Sucumbio]

Okay, so clearly I was mistaken, Pikachu is indeed Top Tier. Probably Top 5 even. But I think all this attention on Byleth definitely proofs they're Top Tier too, or at least upper High Tier.

Yeah I've seen an uptick in usage though it's funny when people try to emulate mkleo vs playing to their own strengths. Mkleo has such amazing matchup knowledge and almost perfect spacing and timing that others can try to be him but honestly can't compare.

Meanwhile...

Any agree with these? I've enjoyed watching Stretch's Marth.

 

[Frihetsanka]

I remember when people thought Ike was top tier because MkLeo played him. I suspect Byleth is a similar case, although Byleth is likely better than Ike. Enough to be top tier? I don't think so. High tier? Maybe, although personally I'm leaning more towards high-mid tier and MkLeo being the best player.

 

[Wigglerman]

Yeah I've seen an uptick in usage though it's funny when people try to emulate mkleo vs playing to their own strengths. Mkleo has such amazing matchup knowledge and almost perfect spacing and timing that others can try to be him but honestly can't compare.

Meanwhile...

Any agree with these? I've enjoyed watching Stretch's Marth.

I like Marth even if he is 'worse' than his descendants. I much prefer playing him over the others. The tipper, even if harder to use consistently, still feels super satisfying.

 

[MrGameguycolor]

I remember when people thought Ike was top tier because MkLeo played him. I suspect Byleth is a similar case, although Byleth is likely better than Ike. Enough to be top tier? I don't think so. High tier? Maybe, although personally I'm leaning more towards high-mid tier and MkLeo being the best player.

Eh, I wouldn't go that far.

High-Mid sounds right tho.

Any agree with these? I've enjoyed watching Stretch's Marth.

I personally have all of them in High Tier, except (funny enough) number 1 who I think is in Upper-Mid.

So sure I guess. lol

 

[F4lcoMain]

Yeah I've seen an uptick in usage though it's funny when people try to emulate mkleo vs playing to their own strengths. Mkleo has such amazing matchup knowledge and almost perfect spacing and timing that others can try to be him but honestly can't compare.

Meanwhile...

Any agree with these? I've enjoyed watching Stretch's Marth.

I think Marth is kinda bad in this game, though I also don't find Lucina to be particularly good either. Might just be the way I play or my lack of knowledge, but both character's combo game and kill power feel way too weak in this game compared to Roy, Chrom, Byleth, or Corrin. I think he's underrated in comparison to Lucina, but I think the issue is that Lucina is rated too highly rather than Marth being rated lowly.

 

[Idon]

Yeah I've seen an uptick in usage though it's funny when people try to emulate mkleo vs playing to their own strengths. Mkleo has such amazing matchup knowledge and almost perfect spacing and timing that others can try to be him but honestly can't compare.

Meanwhile...

Any agree with these? I've enjoyed watching Stretch's Marth.

Not with Marth.
I'll have to genuinely see it to believe it.
Same tired argument of "same framedata/hitboxes to Lucina ergo similar viability" just doesn't account for how important consistency is in this game. If anyone discovers the mythical "Perfect Marth" then perhaps I'd buy into the idea he's underrated.

 

[Sucumbio]

I think Marth is kinda bad in this game, though I also don't find Lucina to be particularly good either. Might just be the way I play or my lack of knowledge, but both character's combo game and kill power feel way too weak in this game compared to Roy, Chrom, Byleth, or Corrin. I think he's underrated in comparison to Lucina, but I think the issue is that Lucina is rated too highly rather than Marth being rated lowly.

Marth is definitely lacking in Ultimate compared to previous games as if he has actually gotten progressively more mediocre since melee... Lucina gets more rep so her results are comparitively higher especially in the hands of players like protobanham but it's been said before that she's overrated (I think even mkleo believes this).

 

[Hydreigonfan01]

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Atelier did a PT matchup chart, pretty sure the ones at the bottom are losing and the ones at the top are winning. Think the Grey tier is "I don't know".

 

[Sucumbio]

PT beats Wolf? The more you know..

 

[Hydreigonfan01]

PT beats Wolf? The more you know..

That's one of Atelier's more optimistic takes on PT, especially considering Wolf is in the same tier as .

 

[Hippieslayer]

Not with Marth.
I'll have to genuinely see it to believe it.
Same tired argument of "same framedata/hitboxes to Lucina ergo similar viability" just doesn't account for how important consistency is in this game. If anyone discovers the mythical "Perfect Marth" then perhaps I'd buy into the idea he's underrated.

Agreed. Marth's tippers just suck. For how tricky they can be to land they are not strong enough. The tipper hitboxes also don't make sense like Roy's hilt hits. You can hit an opponent with the very tip of Marths blade and still get a weak hit, in fact that happens all the time when playing Marth. IIRC tippers were not that wonky in previous titles.

I don't think it's weird to have Lucina a lot higher on a tier list than Marth. She's clearly better, and even if the gap between her and Marth is smaller than people think a small gap is still enough to put a lot of other characters in between them in this game.

 

[Hydreigonfan01]

Zomba did a tier list

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